Digital BW, The Print

In a message dated 10/16/2004 10:07:16 AM Pacific Daylight Time,  
DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com writes:

Unless  the enthusiasts are
into this in the numbers that are possible the market  size will limit
development and keep costs higher than they would be  otherwise, and a lot of
neat innovative stuff will never get  developed.

Regards, David B. Brooks



I agree with your assertion here. As long as Epson thinks that printing  B&W 
with color inks is acceptable, I don't see it happening. THEIR market  reseach 
probably tells them that it's not worth making special inks and drivers  for 
B&W only as it's perceived as a "nitch" market.
 
Used to be that even RA-4 prints were for color only, but with lasers and  
pixels, it seems acceptable to make B&W prints from color paper as long as  the 
profiles are acceptably neutral. The average person has no clue about  
metamersim.\
 
There may be only 3 or 4 labs in the country who have dedicated B&W  laser 
printers with Dektol processors on the back end.
 
Archival really means longer life than the buyer, so we should seek older  
clients with more money.
 
Claude


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I guess I don't understand the problem. We have choices all the way
from free RGB curves with inexpensive MIS inks, QTR for $50 that you
can literally do anything with, Imageprint for a number of options, to
StudioPrint and Cone.
The neat innovative stuff is always developed by those outside the
mainstream with an eye for some need the major market feels unnecessary.
There are a great number of people making beautiful B&W prints these
day, any number of ways.
Epson has never been in the forefront of how to make outstanding
prints on their own hardware, it's always been addressed by third
parties needing, and developing, more. Even the Atkeson profiles,
which finally made Epson printers work "right" out of the box, were
only brought under the Epson umbrella after they were developed
independently.
Roy, Cone, StudioPrint, ImagePrint, Lyson, Generations, MIS, Paul, you
name it, these are where the advances come from, and it's for the
best. Epson will never see the need for what an advanced artist wants,
it would never occur to them.
Gallery was always more expensive then a mainstream Kodak paper. The
people that need these things are small in number, and they are the
only ones who need it, and they are the ones who can define the need.
Things have come a long way because of all these people, we're up and
printing.
I'd say Epson and the other biggies should stand back and let us do
what we need to do.
Goofball obsessive niche developers are exactly what we need more of.
Tyler

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, claudej1@a... wrote:
>  
> In a message dated 10/16/2004 10:07:16 AM Pacific Daylight Time,  
> DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com writes:
> 
> Unless  the enthusiasts are
> into this in the numbers that are possible the market  size will limit
> development and keep costs higher than they would be  otherwise, and
a lot of
> neat innovative stuff will never get  developed.
> 
> Regards, David B. Brooks
> 
> 
> 
> I agree with your assertion here. As long as Epson thinks that
printing  B&W 
> with color inks is acceptable, I don't see it happening. THEIR
market  reseach 
> probably tells them that it's not worth making special inks and
drivers  for 
> B&W only as it's perceived as a "nitch" market.
>  
> Used to be that even RA-4 prints were for color only, but with
lasers and  
> pixels, it seems acceptable to make B&W prints from color paper as
long as  the 
> profiles are acceptably neutral. The average person has no clue about  
> metamersim.\
>  
> There may be only 3 or 4 labs in the country who have dedicated B&W
 laser 
> printers with Dektol processors on the back end.
>  
> Archival really means longer life than the buyer, so we should seek
older  

> clients with more money.
>  
> Claude
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Claude,

I¹ve been covering Epson as a journalist for quite a few years now, and from
what I have observed their marketing research is probably pretty limited.
Seiko does really excellent R&D as well as manufacturing control, and they
have identified consumer needs quite effectively  as well as anticipated the
larger consumer potential. However the relatively short life of the Epson
Stylus 1160 in the US (still sold in Europe I believe), indicates the Epson
US marketing has some blind spots, some serious limitations. Regardless, so
far they have been very lucky, and prescient to focus so appropriately on
the photographic segment of graphics, particularly sales of wide format
printers to individuals.

I don¹t think Epson sees much potential in B&W because the relationship the
executives in the US have established to the photography community and the
really ³young² culture of the middle management team. I rather doubt any
research effort has been directed at determining what their photo market
demographics is comprised of. I am sure they do not know the demography of
the magazine I publish in every month ­ they are always incredulous when I
describe to them who my readers are. And here I am referring to your last
remark, ³we should seek older clients with more money.²

Regards, David B. Brooks
Shutterbug Magazine
E-mail: fotografx@...




On 10/16/04 11:15 AM, "claudej1@..." <claudej1@...> wrote:

> 
> In a message dated 10/16/2004 10:07:16 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
> DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com writes:
> 
> Unless  the enthusiasts are
> into this in the numbers that are possible the market  size will limit
> development and keep costs higher than they would be  otherwise, and a lot of
> neat innovative stuff will never get  developed.
> 
> Regards, David B. Brooks
> 
> 
> 
> I agree with your assertion here. As long as Epson thinks that printing  B&W
> with color inks is acceptable, I don't see it happening. THEIR market  reseach
> probably tells them that it's not worth making special inks and drivers  for
> B&W only as it's perceived as a "nitch" market.
> 
> Used to be that even RA-4 prints were for color only, but with lasers and
> pixels, it seems acceptable to make B&W prints from color paper as long as
> the 
> profiles are acceptably neutral. The average person has no clue about
> metamersim.\
> 
> There may be only 3 or 4 labs in the country who have dedicated B&W  laser
> printers with Dektol processors on the back end.
> 
> Archival really means longer life than the buyer, so we should seek older
> clients with more money.
> 
> Claude
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
> they are often being updated.
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
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> DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> 
> 
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Tyler,

I wrote an article on B&W digital printing that was published in Shutterbug
about three years ago, and covered most of the options and products
available at that time (including many you listed). Now delving into it
again I can understand your point of view with one exception. ³The people
that need these things are small in number, and they are the only ones who
need it, and they are the ones who can define the need.² is not the reality
unless you exclude a lot of serious photography enthusiasts because they are
not totally dedicated Œfine arts¹ photographers. I know my readership is a
very small segment of all of the photographic enthusiasts in America, yet I
have good evidence I reach an audience in five figures. A very large segment
of active photography enthusiasts is middle aged and older, in part because
they have both free time and the discretionary income to afford their
interest. From the feedback I obtain from readers because I have a Digital
Help column I know a large segment of my audience has an interest in B&W
photography among those that have a digital darkroom. These people will come
to support B&W digital printing solutions when it is no longer necessary to
be Œgoofball obsessive¹ to get through the doorway.

Regards, David B. Brooks
Shutterbug Magazine
E-mail: fotografx@...



On 10/16/04 11:44 AM, "Tyler Boley" <tyler@...> wrote:

> 
> I guess I don't understand the problem. We have choices all the way
> from free RGB curves with inexpensive MIS inks, QTR for $50 that you
> can literally do anything with, Imageprint for a number of options, to
> StudioPrint and Cone.
> The neat innovative stuff is always developed by those outside the
> mainstream with an eye for some need the major market feels unnecessary.
> There are a great number of people making beautiful B&W prints these
> day, any number of ways.
> Epson has never been in the forefront of how to make outstanding
> prints on their own hardware, it's always been addressed by third
> parties needing, and developing, more. Even the Atkeson profiles,
> which finally made Epson printers work "right" out of the box, were
> only brought under the Epson umbrella after they were developed
> independently.
> Roy, Cone, StudioPrint, ImagePrint, Lyson, Generations, MIS, Paul, you
> name it, these are where the advances come from, and it's for the
> best. Epson will never see the need for what an advanced artist wants,
> it would never occur to them.
> Gallery was always more expensive then a mainstream Kodak paper. The
> people that need these things are small in number, and they are the
> only ones who need it, and they are the ones who can define the need.
> Things have come a long way because of all these people, we're up and
> printing.
> I'd say Epson and the other biggies should stand back and let us do
> what we need to do.
> Goofball obsessive niche developers are exactly what we need more of.
> Tyler
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, claudej1@a... wrote:
>> >  
>> > In a message dated 10/16/2004 10:07:16 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
>> > DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com writes:
>> > 
>> > Unless  the enthusiasts are
>> > into this in the numbers that are possible the market  size will limit
>> > development and keep costs higher than they would be  otherwise, and
> a lot of
>> > neat innovative stuff will never get  developed.
>> > 
>> > Regards, David B. Brooks
>> > 
>> > 
>> > 
>> > I agree with your assertion here. As long as Epson thinks that
> printing  B&W 
>> > with color inks is acceptable, I don't see it happening. THEIR
> market  reseach 
>> > probably tells them that it's not worth making special inks and
> drivers  for 
>> > B&W only as it's perceived as a "nitch" market.
>> >  
>> > Used to be that even RA-4 prints were for color only, but with
> lasers and  
>> > pixels, it seems acceptable to make B&W prints from color paper as
> long as  the 
>> > profiles are acceptably neutral. The average person has no clue about
>> > metamersim.\
>> >  
>> > There may be only 3 or 4 labs in the country who have dedicated B&W
> laser 
>> > printers with Dektol processors on the back end.
>> >  
>> > Archival really means longer life than the buyer, so we should seek
> older  
>> > clients with more money.
>> >  
>> > Claude
>> > 
>> > 
>> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
> they are often being updated.
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
> page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
> Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the membership
> without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
> printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from the
> membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and
> Moderators. See “Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines” in the Files section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> 
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
> YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE “OWNER” AND
> “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU
> FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY
> DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL,
> USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  “OWNER” AND “MODERATORS” OF
> DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH
> DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW,
> THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR
> TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE
> DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE
> DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> 
> 
> 
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi David, I have no doubt you have your finger on the pulse of a wider
community than I am part of, and apreciate your perspective.
I'll stick to my "goofball" stance though, even if some larger well
financed company brings it to market and makes it easy and affordable,
I'll bet some goofball in the back room addressed the need and the
solution, like Atkeson for decent profiles, out of sheer frustration.
Also, things have been changing fast, I have some prosumer friends
using currently available solutions, and they are quite happy and not
tinkerers. Some things might not even come from where we are looking.
HPs little letter size printer with B&W is really not too bad, more
could evolve from that or elsewhere.
We're getting there, when you think about how recently all this
started, and how fast things are moving.
Tyler

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "David B. Brooks"
<fotografx@m...> wrote:
> Tyler,
> 
> I wrote an article on B&W digital printing that was published in
Shutterbug
> about three years ago, and covered most of the options and products
> available at that time (including many you listed). Now delving into it
> again I can understand your point of view with one exception. ³The
people
> that need these things are small in number, and they are the only
ones who
> need it, and they are the ones who can define the need.² is not the
reality
> unless you exclude a lot of serious photography enthusiasts because
they are
> not totally dedicated Œfine arts¹ photographers. I know my
readership is a
> very small segment of all of the photographic enthusiasts in
America, yet I
> have good evidence I reach an audience in five figures. A very large
segment
> of active photography enthusiasts is middle aged and older, in part
because
> they have both free time and the discretionary income to afford their
> interest. From the feedback I obtain from readers because I have a
Digital
> Help column I know a large segment of my audience has an interest in B&W
> photography among those that have a digital darkroom. These people
will come
> to support B&W digital printing solutions when it is no longer
necessary to

> be Œgoofball obsessive¹ to get through the doorway.
> 
> Regards, David B. Brooks
> Shutterbug Magazine
> E-mail: fotografx@m...

Tyler,

You have already climbed the mountain so you really have no need to do it
again. But for many the steepness and the complexity of the path to the top
is too much of a price to pay because thier need is not so all encompassing.
So, what I hope is that with some extraordinary talent applied to finding an
easier, more direct route the mountain will become more accessible.  I
cannot help but think very often the best solutions are often described as
elegant simplicity, like the shape of a Porsche 911 that has endured now for
40 years, simple and elegant.

Regards, David B. Brooks
Shutterbug Magazine
E-mail: fotografx@...




On 10/16/04 8:54 PM, "Tyler Boley" <tyler@...> wrote:

> 
> Hi David, I have no doubt you have your finger on the pulse of a wider
> community than I am part of, and apreciate your perspective.
> I'll stick to my "goofball" stance though, even if some larger well
> financed company brings it to market and makes it easy and affordable,
> I'll bet some goofball in the back room addressed the need and the
> solution, like Atkeson for decent profiles, out of sheer frustration.
> Also, things have been changing fast, I have some prosumer friends
> using currently available solutions, and they are quite happy and not
> tinkerers. Some things might not even come from where we are looking.
> HPs little letter size printer with B&W is really not too bad, more
> could evolve from that or elsewhere.
> We're getting there, when you think about how recently all this
> started, and how fast things are moving.
> Tyler
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "David B. Brooks"
> <fotografx@m...> wrote:
>> > Tyler,
>> > 
>> > I wrote an article on B&W digital printing that was published in
> Shutterbug
>> > about three years ago, and covered most of the options and products
>> > available at that time (including many you listed). Now delving into it
>> > again I can understand your point of view with one exception. ³The
> people
>> > that need these things are small in number, and they are the only
> ones who
>> > need it, and they are the ones who can define the need.² is not the
> reality
>> > unless you exclude a lot of serious photography enthusiasts because
> they are
>> > not totally dedicated Œfine arts¹ photographers. I know my
> readership is a
>> > very small segment of all of the photographic enthusiasts in
> America, yet I
>> > have good evidence I reach an audience in five figures. A very large
> segment
>> > of active photography enthusiasts is middle aged and older, in part
> because
>> > they have both free time and the discretionary income to afford their
>> > interest. From the feedback I obtain from readers because I have a
> Digital
>> > Help column I know a large segment of my audience has an interest in B&W
>> > photography among those that have a digital darkroom. These people
> will come
>> > to support B&W digital printing solutions when it is no longer
> necessary to
>> > be Œgoofball obsessive¹ to get through the doorway.
>> > 
>> > Regards, David B. Brooks
>> > Shutterbug Magazine
>> > E-mail: fotografx@m...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
> they are often being updated.
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
> page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
> Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the membership
> without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
> printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from the
> membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and
> Moderators. See “Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines” in the Files section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> 
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
> YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE “OWNER” AND
> “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU
> FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY
> DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL,
> USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  “OWNER” AND “MODERATORS” OF
> DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH
> DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW,
> THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR
> TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE
> DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE
> DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> 
> 
> 
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]