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Spectratone Print Samples

Spectratone Print Samples

2001-08-09 by mwesley250@earthlink.net

Allen,

I got the sample prints you sent. Thanks a lot, just when I was 
getting used to the warm tone of my Piezo prints you have to go and 
send me these prints with a wonderful cool selenium tone. Sigh.

Seriously the color of the ink set is very nice indeed and the prints 
sitting on my table say "silver." I seriously doubt that the average 
viewer would realize they were inkjet and not the genuine article. In 
side-to-side comparisons with selenium toned Ilford and Oriental 
fiber paper under a combination of quartz halogen and tungsten 
floods, the Spectratone looked a little cool. Under tungsten very 
neutral. Both nice and to my taste. Have you considered a variable 
tone approach similar to what Paul Roark worked out with the MIS inks?

Anyone out there trying to get pigment ink to stay on papers like 
Kodak Ultima Satin should stop driving themselves crazy and take a 
look at this stuff. Allen, have you tried that paper by the way?

I do have to disagree with you on the 1200 vs. 3000 output. To me the 
1200 print on the Ilford 9 mil glossy is the best. Black looks a 
little blacker. Slightly smoother tonal transitions. Looks sharper at 
normal viewing distances.

Under magnification I can see the dot pattern on 3000 prints and an 
occasional tiny tonal band. At normal viewing distances for these 
8.5X11's this gives the image a bit of a grainy quality on the very 
glossy film, which is very unforgiving, a little less on the semi 
matte and completely invisible on the Oce Watercolor. With large 
prints or on textured paper this would not be an issue. 

The 1200 print under magnification shows a dot pattern which is much 
more subtle. (This is much better than the "window screen" pattern 
that I see in my Piezo prints with the 1200.) The edges of the 
letters are much sharper and cleaner than the 3000 prints. Even on 
the glossy paper I can't see the pattern under normal viewing.

The print from the 1200 indicates that it was printed using 
the "Standard RGB 1200 driver 5.6E" was this done without PressReady?

I like the inks but I am not fond of the papers. The Ilford papers 
are too much like RC silver for my tastes but at the same time the 
1200 print is closest thing to real RC silver in quality I have seen. 
In some ways I like is better. I can see some slight "bronzing" 
or "solarization" when light reflects off the glossy prints, nothing 
extreme like a pigment print on glossy paper, but noticeable. 
Probably less than a silver RC for that matter but I don't have a RC 
print handy to compare. The semi matte is more appealing and shows 
much less "solarization" than the glossy.

The Oce Watercolor looks the best except that the texture is too 
large for a print this size and overwhelms the image. The print color 
and tonality are excellent with better separation in the shadows. I 
would really like to see the ink on some bright white papers ranging 
in smoothness comparable to Museo or Epson Archival Matte. Once again 
there is a large amount of personal taste involved here.

This would be a perfect ink set and paper combination for Rick 
Schiller who was looking for a reliable neutral B&W output for his 
head shot work or anyone wanting the look of a glossy silver gelatin 
print. This would also be really great on the big printers 7000 or 
9000 for display prints. The output is much nicer than the monochrome 
Fuji Crystal I saw a few years ago. (I haven't seen anything recent 
so the Fuji may have improved). A photo lab or service bureau could 
offer top notch B&W without the huge cost of a LightJet. 

Would be a great way to provide contact negs for alternative 
processes as well. I can also see why Dan Burkholder is looking at 
this for making contact negatives. Not only do you have the high 
quality and density but it actually stays on the film unlike the 
pigment inks. 

For the lone photographer starting from the ground up there look to 
be two paths.

- The Epson 3000, Adobe PressReady and a set of ink cartridges for 
about $1,500. If you already have the 3000, $500

-A refurbished Epson 1200 ($234), CIS, ink and PressReady for about 
$815. If you already have the 1200, about $580.

First of all is that correct or can you go without the PressReady on 
either printer?

Have you run the inks with an Epson 1270 or 1280? If I were going to 
buy another printer, I would just as soon get a model that is still 
in production.

I'm curious to give them a try, but I would like a better art paper 
for small size "fine art" prints and some way cheaper to stick my toe 
in the water. I am thinking of trying the new MIS on a 1280. If that 
works out, I'll consider switching my 1200 over to the Spectratones.

Thank you again for the prints. I know you sent them out to some 
other folks on the list and I hope they will chip in their opinions 
too.

Keep us posted on your work with Dan and developements in general.

Martin Wesley

Spectratone Print Samples

2001-08-09 by allentakichi@earthlink.net

_Martin, thanks for the evaluation, I'll 
interject my comments in your text body.



Message: 23
   Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2001 03:53:20 -0000
Show quoted textHide quoted text
   From: mwesley250@...
Subject: Spectratone Print Samples

Allen,

I got the sample prints you sent. Thanks a 
lot, just when I was 
getting used to the warm tone of my Piezo 
prints you have to go and 
send me these prints with a wonderful cool 
selenium tone. Sigh.

Seriously the color of the ink set is very nice 
indeed and the prints 
sitting on my table say "silver." I seriously 
doubt that the average 
viewer would realize they were inkjet and not 
the genuine article. In 
side-to-side comparisons with selenium 
toned Ilford and Oriental 
fiber paper under a combination of quartz 
halogen and tungsten 
floods, the Spectratone looked a little cool. 
Under tungsten very 
neutral. Both nice and to my taste. Have you 
considered a variable 
tone approach similar to what Paul Roark 
worked out with the MIS inks?

~no, I'm keeping it simple at this stage of the 
game

Anyone out there trying to get pigment ink to 
stay on papers like 
Kodak Ultima Satin should stop driving 
themselves crazy and take a 
look at this stuff. Allen, have you tried that 
paper by the way?

~no, I'm sticking to the polymer and geletin 
coated papers for max longevity

I do have to disagree with you on the 1200 
vs. 3000 output. To me the 
1200 print on the Ilford 9 mil glossy is the 
best. Black looks a 
little blacker. Slightly smoother tonal 
transitions. Looks sharper at 
normal viewing distances.

~that's why I send the samples out.  i think 
that they are very close and depending on the 
media etc, may alternate on quality of dither.  
the black point of the 3000 is controllable in 
PressReady and these are kinda "general 
solution prints"

Under magnification I can see the dot pattern 
on 3000 prints and an 
occasional tiny tonal band. At normal 
viewing distances for these 
8.5X11's this gives the image a bit of a 
grainy quality on the very 
glossy film, which is very unforgiving, a 
little less on the semi 
matte and completely invisible on the Oce 
Watercolor. With large 
prints or on textured paper this would not be 
an issue. 

The 1200 print under magnification shows a 
dot pattern which is much 
more subtle. (This is much better than the 
"window screen" pattern 
that I see in my Piezo prints with the 1200.) 
The edges of the 
letters are much sharper and cleaner than the 
3000 prints. Even on 
the glossy paper I can't see the pattern under 
normal viewing.

~thanks for the in depth inspection.  
depending on your requirements, the 3000 
may be a "done deal" but if you are printing 
small on glossy this kind of anaylsis may be 
relavent.  The 3000 separations for the inkset 
CMYK = 2341 are for a general solution 
with a dark biased inkset so that you can also 
print on high bleed uncoated papers as well 
as the glossy papers.  Dan Culbertson has 
probably worked out the ultimate smooth 
solution for coated papers only.  


The print from the 1200 indicates that it was 
printed using 
the "Standard RGB 1200 driver 5.6E" was 
this done without PressReady?

~yes.

I like the inks but I am not fond of the 
papers. The Ilford papers 
are too much like RC silver for my tastes but 
at the same time the 
1200 print is closest thing to real RC silver in 
quality I have seen. 
In some ways I like is better. I can see some 
slight "bronzing" 
or "solarization" when light reflects off the 
glossy prints, nothing 
extreme like a pigment print on glossy paper, 
but noticeable. 
Probably less than a silver RC for that matter 
but I don't have a RC 
print handy to compare. The semi matte is 
more appealing and shows 
much less "solarization" than the glossy.

The Oce Watercolor looks the best except 
that the texture is too 
large for a print this size and overwhelms the 
image. The print color 
and tonality are excellent with better 
separation in the shadows. I 
would really like to see the ink on some 
bright white papers ranging 
in smoothness comparable to Museo or 
Epson Archival Matte. Once again 
there is a large amount of personal taste 
involved here.

~these are just small sample prints on the Oce 
Watercolor paper.  think 17" x X" on the 
3000

This would be a perfect ink set and paper 
combination for Rick 
Schiller who was looking for a reliable 
neutral B&W output for his 
head shot work or anyone wanting the look 
of a glossy silver gelatin 
print. This would also be really great on the 
big printers 7000 or 
9000 for display prints. The output is much 
nicer than the monochrome 
Fuji Crystal I saw a few years ago. (I 
haven't seen anything recent 
so the Fuji may have improved). A photo lab 
or service bureau could 
offer top notch B&W without the huge cost 
of a LightJet. 

Would be a great way to provide contact 
negs for alternative 
processes as well. I can also see why Dan 
Burkholder is looking at 
this for making contact negatives. Not only 
do you have the high 
quality and density but it actually stays on the 
film unlike the 
pigment inks. 

~we are still fiddeling around with a high 
density black just for contact negs since Dan 
isn't getting the D-max he needs for platinum 
palladium prints.  I get good paper white 
with gum bichromate and cyanotype but 
haven't completed the circle on platinum.

For the lone photographer starting from the 
ground up there look to 
be two paths.

- The Epson 3000, Adobe PressReady and a 
set of ink cartridges for 
about $1,500. If you already have the 3000, 
$500

-A refurbished Epson 1200 ($234), CIS, ink 
and PressReady for about 
$815. If you already have the 1200, about 
$580.

First of all is that correct or can you go 
without the PressReady on 
either printer?

~nope, no PressReady needed on the 1200.

~I still haven't tried out PressReady on the 
1200 since I like the Epson built in 
separation solution with the native free RGB 
driver.   It's best to try out the spectratones 
in a regular cart in the 1200 before 
proceeding with CIS units since I haven't 
run the various types of CIS units.  I still like 
the 3000 since it's so reliable in it's 
preformance and refilling is easy and 
verifiable.  



Have you run the inks with an Epson 1270 
or 1280? If I were going to 
buy another printer, I would just as soon get 
a model that is still 
in production.

~no, but I'm open to a little beta testing for 
owners of current models.  drop me a line.

I'm curious to give them a try, but I would 
like a better art paper 
for small size "fine art" prints and some way 
cheaper to stick my toe 
in the water. I am thinking of trying the new 
MIS on a 1280. If that 
works out, I'll consider switching my 1200 
over to the Spectratones.

Thank you again for the prints. I know you 
sent them out to some 
other folks on the list and I hope they will 
chip in their opinions 
too.

Keep us posted on your work with Dan and 
developements in general.

Martin Wesley

~thanks for the comments Martin.  if I get 
time, perhaps I'll work on a more specific 
solution for coated media on the 3000.  
Now, I wonder what Dan Culbertson. has 
been up to in this area?

Allen

Re: Spectratone Print Samples

2001-08-09 by mwesley250@earthlink.net

Allen,

Well it sounds like there is a not too expensive path to give the 
inks a try. I figure some empty 1200 cartridges and refill supplies 
at about $30 and a set of ink is $180. In switching a printer over 
from either the Epson, MIS, Piezo, Lyson, etc. inks are there any 
incompatibilities to watch out for? Do you need to run a cleaning 
cartridge through first?

I know the 4 papers you sent me are your tested papers for maximum 
life but can you give us a list of other papers (in 8.5X11, 11X17 and 
13X19) that you have tried with good results or believe are likely 
candidates? In other words what are the resin and polymer coated 
papers currently on the market?

I agree with you that a 17X?? with the Spectratone inks from the 3000 
on the Oce watercolor paper would be wonderful. (I take it the RIP 
allows you to get past the 22" length limit of the Epson?) For myself 
I am reluctant to buy a 3000 because of cost, reported feeding 
problems, and I suspect that it is about to go out of production 
(hopefully to be replaced by something better).

On the contact negs are you getting enough Dmax for contact printing 
to standard silver paper and what do you think the quality would be 
like? I am thinking in terms of the photographer who wants all the 
Photoshop advantages but would like to get back to a silver fiber 
print all on the desktop without having to go to a lab for the 
digital neg.

I see Peter Lindman has taken you up on your offer to beta test on a 
1280. I hope that works out and look forward to hearing about the 
results.

Thanks,

Martin Wesley




--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., allentakichi@e... wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> _Martin, thanks for the evaluation, I'll 
> interject my comments in your text body.
> 
> 
> 
> Message: 23
>    Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2001 03:53:20 -0000
>    From: mwesley250@e...
> Subject: Spectratone Print Samples
> 
> Allen,
> 
> I got the sample prints you sent. Thanks a 
> lot, just when I was 
> getting used to the warm tone of my Piezo 
> prints you have to go and 
> send me these prints with a wonderful cool 
> selenium tone. Sigh.
> 
> Seriously the color of the ink set is very nice 
> indeed and the prints 
> sitting on my table say "silver." I seriously 
> doubt that the average 
> viewer would realize they were inkjet and not 
> the genuine article. In 
> side-to-side comparisons with selenium 
> toned Ilford and Oriental 
> fiber paper under a combination of quartz 
> halogen and tungsten 
> floods, the Spectratone looked a little cool. 
> Under tungsten very 
> neutral. Both nice and to my taste. Have you 
> considered a variable 
> tone approach similar to what Paul Roark 
> worked out with the MIS inks?
> 
> ~no, I'm keeping it simple at this stage of the 
> game
> 
> Anyone out there trying to get pigment ink to 
> stay on papers like 
> Kodak Ultima Satin should stop driving 
> themselves crazy and take a 
> look at this stuff. Allen, have you tried that 
> paper by the way?
> 
> ~no, I'm sticking to the polymer and geletin 
> coated papers for max longevity
> 
> I do have to disagree with you on the 1200 
> vs. 3000 output. To me the 
> 1200 print on the Ilford 9 mil glossy is the 
> best. Black looks a 
> little blacker. Slightly smoother tonal 
> transitions. Looks sharper at 
> normal viewing distances.
> 
> ~that's why I send the samples out.  i think 
> that they are very close and depending on the 
> media etc, may alternate on quality of dither.  
> the black point of the 3000 is controllable in 
> PressReady and these are kinda "general 
> solution prints"
> 
> Under magnification I can see the dot pattern 
> on 3000 prints and an 
> occasional tiny tonal band. At normal 
> viewing distances for these 
> 8.5X11's this gives the image a bit of a 
> grainy quality on the very 
> glossy film, which is very unforgiving, a 
> little less on the semi 
> matte and completely invisible on the Oce 
> Watercolor. With large 
> prints or on textured paper this would not be 
> an issue. 
> 
> The 1200 print under magnification shows a 
> dot pattern which is much 
> more subtle. (This is much better than the 
> "window screen" pattern 
> that I see in my Piezo prints with the 1200.) 
> The edges of the 
> letters are much sharper and cleaner than the 
> 3000 prints. Even on 
> the glossy paper I can't see the pattern under 
> normal viewing.
> 
> ~thanks for the in depth inspection.  
> depending on your requirements, the 3000 
> may be a "done deal" but if you are printing 
> small on glossy this kind of anaylsis may be 
> relavent.  The 3000 separations for the inkset 
> CMYK = 2341 are for a general solution 
> with a dark biased inkset so that you can also 
> print on high bleed uncoated papers as well 
> as the glossy papers.  Dan Culbertson has 
> probably worked out the ultimate smooth 
> solution for coated papers only.  
> 
> 
> The print from the 1200 indicates that it was 
> printed using 
> the "Standard RGB 1200 driver 5.6E" was 
> this done without PressReady?
> 
> ~yes.
> 
> I like the inks but I am not fond of the 
> papers. The Ilford papers 
> are too much like RC silver for my tastes but 
> at the same time the 
> 1200 print is closest thing to real RC silver in 
> quality I have seen. 
> In some ways I like is better. I can see some 
> slight "bronzing" 
> or "solarization" when light reflects off the 
> glossy prints, nothing 
> extreme like a pigment print on glossy paper, 
> but noticeable. 
> Probably less than a silver RC for that matter 
> but I don't have a RC 
> print handy to compare. The semi matte is 
> more appealing and shows 
> much less "solarization" than the glossy.
> 
> The Oce Watercolor looks the best except 
> that the texture is too 
> large for a print this size and overwhelms the 
> image. The print color 
> and tonality are excellent with better 
> separation in the shadows. I 
> would really like to see the ink on some 
> bright white papers ranging 
> in smoothness comparable to Museo or 
> Epson Archival Matte. Once again 
> there is a large amount of personal taste 
> involved here.
> 
> ~these are just small sample prints on the Oce 
> Watercolor paper.  think 17" x X" on the 
> 3000
> 
> This would be a perfect ink set and paper 
> combination for Rick 
> Schiller who was looking for a reliable 
> neutral B&W output for his 
> head shot work or anyone wanting the look 
> of a glossy silver gelatin 
> print. This would also be really great on the 
> big printers 7000 or 
> 9000 for display prints. The output is much 
> nicer than the monochrome 
> Fuji Crystal I saw a few years ago. (I 
> haven't seen anything recent 
> so the Fuji may have improved). A photo lab 
> or service bureau could 
> offer top notch B&W without the huge cost 
> of a LightJet. 
> 
> Would be a great way to provide contact 
> negs for alternative 
> processes as well. I can also see why Dan 
> Burkholder is looking at 
> this for making contact negatives. Not only 
> do you have the high 
> quality and density but it actually stays on the 
> film unlike the 
> pigment inks. 
> 
> ~we are still fiddeling around with a high 
> density black just for contact negs since Dan 
> isn't getting the D-max he needs for platinum 
> palladium prints.  I get good paper white 
> with gum bichromate and cyanotype but 
> haven't completed the circle on platinum.
> 
> For the lone photographer starting from the 
> ground up there look to 
> be two paths.
> 
> - The Epson 3000, Adobe PressReady and a 
> set of ink cartridges for 
> about $1,500. If you already have the 3000, 
> $500
> 
> -A refurbished Epson 1200 ($234), CIS, ink 
> and PressReady for about 
> $815. If you already have the 1200, about 
> $580.
> 
> First of all is that correct or can you go 
> without the PressReady on 
> either printer?
> 
> ~nope, no PressReady needed on the 1200.
> 
> ~I still haven't tried out PressReady on the 
> 1200 since I like the Epson built in 
> separation solution with the native free RGB 
> driver.   It's best to try out the spectratones 
> in a regular cart in the 1200 before 
> proceeding with CIS units since I haven't 
> run the various types of CIS units.  I still like 
> the 3000 since it's so reliable in it's 
> preformance and refilling is easy and 
> verifiable.  
> 
> 
> 
> Have you run the inks with an Epson 1270 
> or 1280? If I were going to 
> buy another printer, I would just as soon get 
> a model that is still 
> in production.
> 
> ~no, but I'm open to a little beta testing for 
> owners of current models.  drop me a line.
> 
> I'm curious to give them a try, but I would 
> like a better art paper 
> for small size "fine art" prints and some way 
> cheaper to stick my toe 
> in the water. I am thinking of trying the new 
> MIS on a 1280. If that 
> works out, I'll consider switching my 1200 
> over to the Spectratones.
> 
> Thank you again for the prints. I know you 
> sent them out to some 
> other folks on the list and I hope they will 
> chip in their opinions 
> too.
> 
> Keep us posted on your work with Dan and 
> developements in general.
> 
> Martin Wesley
> 
> ~thanks for the comments Martin.  if I get 
> time, perhaps I'll work on a more specific 
> solution for coated media on the 3000.  
> Now, I wonder what Dan Culbertson. has 
> been up to in this area?
> 
> Allen

Spectratone Print Samples

2001-08-09 by allentakichi@earthlink.net

Peter,

You don't need PressReady with ANY of the 
epson 6 color printer.  The posted solution 
for the 1200 is the same for all of the 6 color 
printers.  You just have to tweak the curve 
mostly for the black point.  The idea is that 
Epson has done very good separations for us 
free already, we just have to twiddle with 
some curves since I've already figured out 
how to use it with my tritone solution. 

Drop me a line off list and we can follow up.  
I'd be contributing some free ink and you 
would be verifying preformance and sending 
a couple of printed samples back to me on 
ilford paper.  



Allen

Message: 13
   Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2001 08:52:30 -0700
Show quoted textHide quoted text
   From: Peter Lindman <
plindman@...>
Subject: Re: Spectratone Print Samples

Allen,

I've a 1280 and I'd like to try this 
approach
what else would I need in
order to help? Pressready?

Peter Liindman


allentakichi@earthlink.net wrote:

> 
> Have you run the inks with an Epson 1270
> or 1280? If I were going to
> buy another printer, I would just as soon get
> a model that is still
> in production.
> 
> ~no, but I'm open to a little beta testing for
> owners of current models.  drop me a line.
>


___________________________________
___________

Spectratone Print Samples

2001-08-09 by allentakichi@earthlink.net

Hi Martin,


Message: 20
   Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2001 17:46:00 -0000
Show quoted textHide quoted text
   From: mwesley250@...
Subject: Re: Spectratone Print Samples

Allen,

Well it sounds like there is a not too 
expensive path to give the 
inks a try. I figure some empty 1200 
cartridges and refill supplies 
at about $30 and a set of ink is $180. In 
switching a printer over 
from either the Epson, MIS, Piezo, Lyson, 
etc. inks are there any 
incompatibilities to watch out for? Do you 
need to run a cleaning 
cartridge through first?


~Yes, run a cleaning solution.  I know that 
the spectratones and generations are 
definitely not compatible.


I know the 4 papers you sent me are your 
tested papers for maximum 
life but can you give us a list of other papers 
(in 8.5X11, 11X17 and 
13X19) that you have tried with good results 
or believe are likely 
candidates? In other words what are the resin 
and polymer coated 
papers currently on the market?

~there arn't many resin and polymer coated 
papers out there except for some of the films 
and film type papers.  I've concentrated on 
the ilford and oce media but some beta 
testors have tested very widely and the vote 
for best neutral is the media I already 
recommend.  The color can vary widely 
depending on the media.  

I agree with you that a 17X?? 

~just means 17 inches by X inches since the 
3000 takes 17 inch wide paper.

with the Spectratone inks from the 3000 
on the Oce watercolor paper would be 
wonderful. (I take it the RIP 
allows you to get past the 22" length limit of 
the Epson?) 

~what 22" limit?  I always thought it was 44"


For myself 
I am reluctant to buy a 3000 because of cost, 
reported feeding 
problems, and I suspect that it is about to go 
out of production 
(hopefully to be replaced by something 
better).

~It's an amazing workhorse and I do believe 
that it has the 44" native rgb driver limit that 
you can use with Dan Culbertson's RGB 
workflow with an RGB profile as detailed on 
our site.  No need for PressReady as a cost 
either.  I haven't seen prints with this 
workflow yet but I'll get to it on my end in a 
week or two.  

It has feeding problems with some media but 
none with the ilford 9 mil media for me.  

On the contact negs are you getting enough 
Dmax for contact printing 
to standard silver paper and what do you 
think the quality would be 
like? I am thinking in terms of the 
photographer who wants all the 
Photoshop advantages but would like to get 
back to a silver fiber 
print all on the desktop without having to go 
to a lab for the 
digital neg.

~I'm supposed to print up a silver contact 
neg for a friend this week for initial tests.

I see Peter Lindman has taken you up on 
your offer to beta test on a 
1280. I hope that works out and look 
forward to hearing about the 
results.

Thanks,

Martin Wesley

Allen

Re: Spectratone Print Samples

2001-08-10 by Dan Culbertson

> ~nope, no PressReady needed on the 1200.
> 

Also not totally required on the 3000.  See my instructions for RGB
softproof method on Allen's site.  For the glossy paper this seems as good
as PressReady for me.

> ~I still haven't tried out PressReady on the
> 1200 since I like the Epson built in
> separation solution with the native free RGB
> driver.   It's best to try out the spectratones
> in a regular cart in the 1200 before
> proceeding with CIS units since I haven't
> run the various types of CIS units.  I still like
> the 3000 since it's so reliable in it's
> preformance and refilling is easy and
> verifiable.  

I previously tried a PressReady solution on the 1200 with a bunch of the
different ink tones and very very careful spectrophotometer measurements
with manual separation methods, etc.  The plain old RGB driver worked just
as well as any fancy manual separation method with Ilford glossy.  The 1200
already has what is essentially a multitone solution built into it so long
as you choose the right ink tones (as does any 6 color printer).  Only thing
PressReady can give you is a bit more control in the shadow region and that
is not really apparent with this inkset the way it is with the quady pigs.
PressReady will allow you to force the printer to lay down more ink which
might be of value on a watercolor paper but the 1200 dumps on lots the ink
with the RGB driver anyhow.

~thanks for the comments Martin.  if I get
time, perhaps I'll work on a more specific
solution for coated media on the 3000.
Now, I wonder what Dan Culbertson. has
been up to in this area?

I'm still considering the virtues of using the RGB driver with the 3000 with
the softproof RGB methodology.  Tyler B. pointed out to me that the
Backlight Film setting puts down more ink so I am not sure that a RIP is
really necessary with this inkset and its deeper blacks.   RGB driver is not
an option for me for pigment inksets since you really need that "rich black"
option that only a RIP can give.  But you can't beat that Epson dither with
a stick (or even with PressReady).  If I find the right watercolor or matte
paper that gives me the right texture and black I may just s-can PressReady
and CMYK methods (Sacrilege!!! -- don't tell Tyler!).   But using RGB curves
to control CMY ink channels is still a bit counterintuitive for me.  On the
other hand with 7000's dropping in price maybe I'll be looking at replacing
the 3000 with one of those and the plain old "send grayscale image to the
printer" option will be the ultimate solution in the end, just like on the
1200.  But that just seems too easy.....

Just got some Arches Brite White Hot Press that I hope to try out this
weekend.   Maybe this will be that just right gelatin watercolor? Test test
test test .....

Dan Culbertson
so many years, so little time

Spectratone Print Samples

2001-08-10 by allentakichi@earthlink.net

Dan,

Yes, in the back of my mind has been my 
"Dummy toooo simple to be true" 6 color 
method VS Dan C's most amazing methods 
but I went ahead and did it anyway. 

Now Dan has come up with a simplified 
RGB 3000 solution.  Nice.

I actually worked out the 6 color solution a 
couple of years ago and posted it on the 
epson leben list and the digital darkroom site 
and gave it to MIS since I was beta testing 
for them at the time.   It took from then to 
now to come up with the inkset/media 
combination that is quite indestructable on 
glossy.  

Let's just say that a LOT of reverse 
engineering went into the Spectratones with 
the Epson 6 color RGB driver in mind.  

The 7000 solution is the same as the 1200 
solution or any epson 6 color solution and 
the curves are all written.  You just have to 
move the black point to the D-max and 
perhaps move the entire curve up or down a 
bit.  To simple.  I just eyeballed my curves 
from my printed grayscale.

Allen

Lincolninks.com


Message: 10
   Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2001 19:09:18 -0700
Show quoted textHide quoted text
   From: Dan Culbertson <
danculb@...>
Subject: Re: Spectratone Print Samples

Big snip

 On the
other hand with 7000's dropping in price 
maybe I'll be looking at replacing
the 3000 with one of those and the plain old 
"send grayscale image to the
printer" option will be the ultimate solution in 
the end, just like on the
1200.  But that just seems too easy.....

snip...

Dan Culbertson
so many years, so little time

Re: Spectratone Print Samples

2001-08-11 by Dan Culbertson

> I actually worked out the 6 color solution a
> couple of years ago and posted it on the
> epson leben list and the digital darkroom site
> and gave it to MIS since I was beta testing
> for them at the time.   It took from then to
> now to come up with the inkset/media
> combination that is quite indestructable on
> glossy.  
> 
> Let's just say that a LOT of reverse
> engineering went into the Spectratones with
> the Epson 6 color RGB driver in mind.
snip 
> Allen
> 
> Lincolninks.com

I remember when you were doing that with the MIS inks.  I tried your MIS ink
order because it sounded right but the MIS inks just didn't quite have the
right individual tonal characteristics to work as-is without some peculiar
flattening in the midtones.  Couldn't even get that out with a CMYK setup
that let me adjust the C and M channel's dot area separately.  For a while I
tried to mix some clear base into the inks to get a proper set of ink tones
that worked with the standard cC and mM driver crossovers but it was just
*way* too labor intensive (and I used up *way way* too many ink cartridges).
So your six tone inkset that is perfectly balanced to use three or four
tones with the standard driver crossovers is a huge achievement!  I'm not
sure anyone who hasn't tried to come up with their own ink set has any idea
how difficult that "reverse engineering" actually is.  For a while I had a
lot of hope for the Yarc Xtreme six channel RIP (which allows you to
customize the Cc and Mm crossovers in the driver) as an alternate software
solution to six color printers with grayscale inks -- but, unfortunately,
Yarc seems to have died of a severe case of terminal bankruptcy so we are
back to your "create just the right ink" solution.  But since that is the
much simpler (for the user) solution and takes advantage of the Epson dither
it all works out for the best!

-- Dan Culbertson
so many years, so little time...

Spectratone Print Samples

2001-08-12 by allentakichi@earthlink.net

Gosh Dan, you should have dropped me a 
line and exchanged some print samples those 
years ago.  The origianl MIS inkset was set 
up to work with the nefarious icefields so the 
inkset order was screwed up to begin with 
because it was  linked to the split tone - toned 
ink strategy which showed up with true 
channel separation as a bad color cast.  So I 
got Bob to make me some neutral untinted 
tones and all was well tonal/hue wise from 
then on.   He is a great guy and was very 
generous.  

On the flattening of the midtones, there was a 
crazy little loop-de-loop bump in the curves 
in the transition between the darker inks and 
lighter inks as I remember which I 
compensated for.  Hmmm, perhaps I still 
have the curve on an ancient zip somewhere 
in a box.

Then I went on to coengineer the Spectratone 
inkset and rgb driver to be happy with each 
other and also to be flexible in it's possible 
solutions and I really can't beat the tritone 
solution as a general solution.  Since I 
reverse engineered the 6 color rgb driver 
years ago, I thought to myself, hmmmm here 
is a billion dollar separation strategy for free, 
I think I'll go with it with the 
supermicroweave thrown in as a bonus :))

Allen
lincolninks.com   


solutions.   
Message: 4
   Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 12:02:51 -0700
Show quoted textHide quoted text
   From: Dan Culbertson <
danculb@...>
Subject: Re: Spectratone Print Samples

> I actually worked out the 6 color solution a
> couple of years ago and posted it on the
> epson leben list and the digital darkroom site
> and gave it to MIS since I was beta testing
> for them at the time.   It took from then to
> now to come up with the inkset/media
> combination that is quite indestructable on
> glossy.  
> 
> Let's just say that a LOT of reverse
> engineering went into the Spectratones with
> the Epson 6 color RGB driver in mind.
snip 
> Allen
> 
> Lincolninks.com

I remember when you were doing that with 
the MIS inks.  I tried your MIS ink
order because it sounded right but the MIS 
inks just didn't quite have the
right individual tonal characteristics to work 
as-is without some peculiar
flattening in the midtones.  Couldn't even get 
that out with a CMYK setup
that let me adjust the C and M channel's dot 
area separately.  For a while I
tried to mix some clear base into the inks to 
get a proper set of ink tones
that worked with the standard cC and mM 
driver crossovers but it was just
*way* too labor intensive (and I used up *
way way* too many ink cartridges).
So your six tone inkset that is perfectly 
balanced to use three or four
tones with the standard driver crossovers is a 
huge achievement!  I'm not
sure anyone who hasn't tried to come up 
with their own ink set has any idea
how difficult that "reverse engineering" 
actually is.  For a while I had a
lot of hope for the Yarc Xtreme six channel 
RIP (which allows you to
customize the Cc and Mm crossovers in the 
driver) as an alternate software
solution to six color printers with grayscale 
inks -- but, unfortunately,
Yarc seems to have died of a severe case of 
terminal bankruptcy so we are
back to your "create just the right ink" 
solution.  But since that is the
much simpler (for the user) solution and 
takes advantage of the Epson dither
it all works out for the best!

-- Dan Culbertson
so many years, so little time...

Re: Spectratone Print Samples

2001-08-13 by Dan Culbertson

> Gosh Dan, you should have dropped me a
> line and exchanged some print samples those
> years ago.  The origianl MIS inkset was set
> up to work with the nefarious icefields so the
> inkset order was screwed up to begin with
> because it was  linked to the split tone - toned
> ink strategy which showed up with true
> channel separation as a bad color cast.  So I
> got Bob to make me some neutral untinted
> tones and all was well tonal/hue wise from
> then on.   He is a great guy and was very
> generous.  
snip

Yep, probably should have.  But then Piezo inks came along and I got started
testing them.  And then I got into really getting color inks down right.
And then I realized pigs don't like glossy but I sometimes do.  And then
Spectratones came along.  And then -- well, at any rate the tint in the MIS
inks worked quite well for some papers - I actually liked the color when it
was used in a true separation process for some.  But for other papers it was
a real pooh pooh problem so I wanted to do some dilution experiments with
the black ink -- but never got to the right set of dilutions.  Didn't know
that you had perfected the things (by that time I was probably deep into the
Piezo ink experiments - I think I may have inkjet attention deficit disorder
since I can't resist trying the latest new ink set!).   Need to keep in
touch more (good focused list here to do it now!).

-- Dan Culbertson
so many years, so little time...

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