Digital BW, The Print

If you like Moab Entrada Natural but not the warmish color, why not try
Entrada Bright White? 

Or, for economy, their Kayenta Photo Matte will give you the same
(bright-white) coating on an alpha-cellulose base: still acid free, but
less expensive than cotton.

There are many fine papers around. If you limit the number you work
with, you may have time to do more art.

Richard Wolfson
Fine Art Photographer
Digital Imaging Consultant
Harvard Massachusetts USA
rw at RichardWolfson.com

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Michael Poster [mailto:mposter@...] 
> Sent: Friday, November 19, 2004 1:11 PM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Digital BW] Matte Papers
> 
> 
> My first post here, though I've learned a lot, lurking.
> 
> I've been using Epson Enhanced Matte on a 2200 for 2 years. 
> In fact, it's the only paper I've ever used. Most of my work 
> is color, but I do print BW from time to time and some 
> limited testing with QTR makes me think I'll be buying that 
> and printing more BW going forward.
> 
> I feel like I'm on the downhill side of the learning curve so 
> I'm ready to spend a bit more for paper than I have on the 
> EEM. I was never completely happy with EEM, but it worked 
> reasonably well. At this point I want to at least achieve 
> same image quality as with EEM or, better still, exceed it. 
> At the same time, I'd like to feel more assurance that the 
> prints will be as permanent as the current state of the art allows.
> 
> After much reading I've developed a very short list of 
> possibilities and have played a bit with one of those so far: 
> Moab Entrada Natural. The warmish color put me off a bit at 
> first, but the prints made using Moab's canned profile are 
> quite nice. I'm at the point of having a custom profile made 
> for this paper and just want to get some feedback on 
> alternatives before committing. I should say I'm no paper 
> junkie. If at all possible I want to find one something that 
> works and stick with it.
> 
> I've read some good things about Hahnemuhle Rag, Premier Hot 
> Press, Epson Ultrasmooth, Museum Digital and the Moab. The HR 
> is expensive for a guy that's still throwing away more prints 
> than not and the flaking issue sounds irritating. The EU 
> sounds great, but I have no interest in cutting paper from 
> rolls. The PHP is "identical" to EU according to some and it 
> sounds like a good paper. Inkjetart claims Museum Digital is 
> identical to EU as well.
> 
> So, as subjective as I know all this is, I'm looking for help 
> in narrowing the list. I'm not averse to testing myself, but 
> it seems that in order to do so I'd have to purchase the 
> papers and have profiles made. This is more work and expense 
> than I'd like. I'm a bit apprehensive asking such a 
> subjective question, but I've read enough here to know that 
> I'll have a chance of beating some of this learning curve 
> with your help. Is anyone here willing to share their good or 
> bad experiences with papers on my list? 
> Or, gulp, is there a paper I haven't considered, but should?
> 
> Michael

At 01:45 PM 11/19/2004 -0500, you wrote:
>If you limit the number you work
>with, you may have time to do more art.

Exactly. I'd rather be making pictures.


>If you like Moab Entrada Natural but not the warmish color, why not try
>Entrada Bright White?

I was trying to avoid the OBAs figuring that if I'm shooting toward 
archival I might as well do all I can.

Thanks for your suggestions.

Hawk Mountain has several  <VBG> with and without OBA's.

Diana York ~ Hawk Mountain Papers
Leesport PA
toll-free 888-807-2248
diana@...
www.hawkmtnartpapers.com
AOL IM: HawkMtnPapers

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Michael Poster" <mposter@...>  <snip>
Or, gulp, is there a paper I haven't considered, but should?
Michael

The Condor BW is my favorite. It has the most neutral blacks with
Eboni to my eye. Now I believe it does have OBA's but there's
something about the the relationship of the bright white paper and the
neutral black that makes images really pop, especially with BO. It
just works best for my style. 

And the sizes are not limited to those shown on the website. Just call
if you want something you don't see. Yes, you can get a 25 or 50 sheet
pack of 8.5x11.

Also see Clayton Jones great paper review at
http://www.cjcom.net/articles/digiprn5.htm  (he liked it too)

Bob Michaels

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Diana York"
<diana@h...> wrote:

> Hawk Mountain has several  <VBG> with and without OBA's.
> 
> Diana York ~ Hawk Mountain Papers
> Leesport PA
> toll-free 888-807-2248
> diana@h...
> www.hawkmtnartpapers.com
> AOL IM: HawkMtnPapers
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Michael Poster" <mposter@w...>  <snip>
> Or, gulp, is there a paper I haven't considered, but should?
> Michael

Thanks for all the input so far. I'm beginning to think there are a lot of 
great papers out there ;o)

A few more questions if you can bear with me:

** Seems so many of the recommended and highly regarded papers use OBAs. 
There are some beautiful, expensive pictures being made on papers with OBAs 
and sold to collectors as digital gains credibility. And it's clear to me 
that many people making prints on these papers have *very* specific ideas 
of what their prints should look like. Are the makers concerned with what 
the prints will look like over time?

** Are the typical specs (cotton, etc.) for the papers that have been 
suggested enough to inspire confidence in their archival qualities? 
Ultimately it must be a wait and see situation, but most printers seem to 
be relying on Wilhelm's tests to some degree regarding archival issues. 
Wilhelm has actually tested few of these I think. Is it likely that an 
untested paper will fare as well as a tested paper so long as the published 
specs are similar?

** I'm wondering if there's a paper weight sweet spot (for me at least). 
The 190gsm range seems just a tad light, but I'm afraid the 300 range is 
going to make me jump through hoops feeding my 2200. I'd prefer to feed 
normally (through the top). Some of these papers come in what seems to me 
to be a good compromise weight of about 250gsm. Will this weight top-feed 
easily?

** Premier Hot Press has been mentioned a few times and it was on my very 
short list before I asked. Does it fall short in any way that I might not 
discover in short term testing of my own? Are there decent canned profiles 
available so I can test this paper?

>** I'm wondering if there's a paper weight sweet spot (for me at least).
>The 190gsm range seems just a tad light, but I'm afraid the 300 range is
>going to make me jump through hoops feeding my 2200. I'd prefer to feed
>normally (through the top). Some of these papers come in what seems to me
>to be a good compromise weight of about 250gsm. Will this weight top-feed
>easily?

use the straight path for 300gsm or, really anthing thicker than EEM. 1.
you'll have fewer flaking problems (but don't forget to give the sheet a
good swipe with an old tee shirt first); 2. as you're 2200 sees use, feeding
any thicker paper from the top may cause ink to smear the edges (see recent
posts on this - I'm still trying to figure out what causes it); 3. once
you've used a couple of time you'll realize it's really very easy. I wound
up turning my printer about 45 deg. for easier access and just left it that
way.

---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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>The Condor BW is my favorite. It has the most neutral blacks with
>Eboni to my eye. Now I believe it does have OBA's but there's
>something about the the relationship of the bright white paper and the
>neutral black that makes images really pop, especially with BO. 

I think Moab Entrada (Bright White, not the Natural) is the same coating.
These cold papers (lots of OBAs) with Eboni probably do give the most
neutral BO printing.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Michael Poster wrote:
> Thanks for all the input so far. I'm beginning to think there are a lot of 
> great papers out there ;o)
> 
> A few more questions if you can bear with me:
> 
> ** Seems so many of the recommended and highly regarded papers use OBAs. 
> There are some beautiful, expensive pictures being made on papers with OBAs 
> and sold to collectors as digital gains credibility. And it's clear to me 
> that many people making prints on these papers have *very* specific ideas 
> of what their prints should look like. Are the makers concerned with what 
> the prints will look like over time?

Standard photographic base paper comes from one source, Felix Schoeller 
in Germany (www.felix-schoeller.com - pick English at the bottom if your 
German is a little rusty).  They make 190,000 tonnes of the stuff every 
year.  So a company like say Ilford buys the base paper already coated 
with polyethelene for RC papers, puts their emulsion on top, cuts it to 
the proper size packages it, and ships it out the door.  Kodak takes the 
same polyethelene coated paper, and puts their emulsion on it, cuts it 
to size, packages it, and ships it out the door.

If your making an inkjet paper, no reason you can't use the same paper, 
with a different coating on it, one that accepts ink instead of light. 
Considering that I have darkroom RC prints over 20 years old that have 
not exhibited any paper failure....  As for OBA's it depends, if they 
are coated on the paper and then the receiving layer ontop of that, then 
it would depend on the chemical composition of the OBA and the ink as 
the paper is protected by the polyethelene coating it received in the 
factory.

Funny statistic no photographic paper can be more then 3.5m in both 
dimensions, as that is the width of the paper making machine used at F.S.

> ** Are the typical specs (cotton, etc.) for the papers that have been 
> suggested enough to inspire confidence in their archival qualities? 
> Ultimately it must be a wait and see situation, but most printers seem to 
> be relying on Wilhelm's tests to some degree regarding archival issues. 
> Wilhelm has actually tested few of these I think. Is it likely that an 
> untested paper will fare as well as a tested paper so long as the published 
> specs are similar?

I don't know about the rag papers, again it depends on the base 
materials where they came from, what it's coated with, and what 
reactions there are between the paper, coatings and ink used.  Wilhelm 
uses a form of accelerated testing, so your storage conditions also come 
into effect, if your storage conditions are more like the test 
conditions, then the assumed conditions, your mileage will vary.....
> 
> ** I'm wondering if there's a paper weight sweet spot (for me at least). 
> The 190gsm range seems just a tad light, but I'm afraid the 300 range is 
> going to make me jump through hoops feeding my 2200. I'd prefer to feed 
> normally (through the top). Some of these papers come in what seems to me 
> to be a good compromise weight of about 250gsm. Will this weight top-feed 
> easily?

Check your printer manual, it should give you the maximum weight of 
paper that will feed through, the key is paper stiffness, typically 
heavier paper is stiffer.  My HP does a 180 with paper just before the 
print head, and it states a limit of 200gsm which I think would be about 
right.  The best test would be to buy a small pack of the paper you want 
and test it.
W

> ** Premier Hot Press has been mentioned a few times and it was on my very 
> short list before I asked. Does it fall short in any way that I might not 
> discover in short term testing of my own? Are there decent canned profiles 
> available so I can test this paper?
>

Hello Michael,

>A few more questions if you can bear with me:

Excellent questions.  Some of them are addressed in the "Great Paper
Chase" article.  At the bottom of it is a short discussion about OBAs
with some web links and a quote from Diana York from Hawk Mtn papers
(of Condor and Merlin fame).  Bottom line is all OBAs are not created
equal.  Older formulations "burn off" more quickly than newer ones. 
OBAs can be in either the paper, the coating, or both.  So to simply
say a paper has OBAs or not doesn't really give enough information to
make a good judgement (unless you want to avoid them completely).

For example, I have observed in a Condor BW print, an extremely bright
pure white paper, that after several months of open exposure to room
light (daylight and fluorescent) the hard edge of brightness lessens
noticeably and the paper color moves from P1 (whitest in the scale
used in the article) to about what would be not quite P2, maybe P1.75.
 Yet the paper remains a "white" paper, not even close to the cream
color of most non-OBA papers, and its neutral treatment of Eboni
doesn't change.  For me, this is an acceptable amount of "burn off"
and it's a really nice Paper.

Premier Hot Press is a beautiful paper (in several ways), but one
thing that is rarely mentioned is that it is extremely warm in color,
near the top of the scale in the review.  So personal taste comes
strongly into play for any paper on an extreme end of the color scale,
either warm or cool.  Its has a hard smooth surface (producing
very sharp resolution), has a moderate contrast curve giving good
shadow control, doesn't seem to flake, and has excellent Dmax, no
OBAs, and a beautiful appearance of depth.  Wow, what a lineup!  But
if you don't like extremely warm prints...(you can always put cool ink
on it but then you'll have a print with cool shadows and very warm
highlights...which, depending on the image, can look pretty bizarre).

In addition, paper color does not always match how it renders ink. 
There are at least two papers in the review that render carbon inks
cooler than other papers of the same color.  I call these "cross-over"
papers.  If using a variable tone ink with these, you'd have to dial
in a warmer ink to match another paper with same paper color.

As for thick papers in the 2200 top feeder, I can feed even 300 Condor
through if I give it a tiny nudge to get it started (I can't put in a
stack and walk away).  As for ink getting on the paper, it depends on
the curvature.  Photo Rag, for example, is concave on the coated side
(the edges want to turn up).  So even the thin 188 stuff will get
smudged edges if you don't bend back the rear corners beforehand. 
Merlin Smooth, on the other hand, is convex on the coated side.  I
don't do any bending and don't get ink on the edges.  Condor is
two-sided, so it has almost no curl and has no edge problem.

All this is to say that it's too easy to make generalizations about
any of this.  There are lots of individual things to grade a paper
about, and if you pay attention and take notes you find that nearly
every paper is a unique mix of these various atributes.  That's why I
organized the article as I did, to try to illustrate that fact.  Each
paper has to be evaluated for its complete mix of characteristics:
thickness, curl, texture, hardness, paper color, ink color, OBAs,
flaking, reflectivity, contrast, Dmax, cost, availability,
longevity... in other words, ultimately you must do your own testing
and research.  The "Paper chase" article perhaps can help narrow down
the selection.

Speaking of the article, I have just come back from a business trip
for which I spent months preparing, and hope to get back to testing
more papers in the coming weeks.  I'll post a notice here after I've
updated the article.

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Michael Poster 
<mposter@w...> wrote:



> ** I'm wondering if there's a paper weight sweet spot (for me at 
least). 
> The 190gsm range seems just a tad light, but I'm afraid the 300 
range is 
> going to make me jump through hoops feeding my 2200. I'd prefer to 
feed 
> normally (through the top). Some of these papers come in what seems 
to me 
> to be a good compromise weight of about 250gsm. Will this weight 
top-feed 
> easily?
> 

My first 2200 had a little difficulty with 300 gm paper; I'd have 
to "worry" it down from the top feed.  My replacement 2200 has no 
trouble whatsoever with it-- sucks it right down using only gravity.

eric perkins

----- Original Message ----- 

  From: Clayton Jones 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2004 11:45 PM
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Matte Papers



  <<..... For me, this is an acceptable amount of "burn off"
  and it's a really nice Paper.....>>

  Clayton, by "burn off" do you mean a loss evenly spread all over the sheet surface ? Generally speaking I never noticed any lost in brightness per say all over the print but get a yellowish hue unevenly spread along the edges.

  BTW, thanks for your article and the great work you have done there, waiting to see the update.

  Michel

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

All this has to see with stiffness and not thickness. I have an Eps890 and I need to curve the Museo sheet to feed it, it is only 250gr but it is very stiff while I have no problem with a 305gr Konica.

Michel

  <<  My first 2200 had a little difficulty with 300 gm paper; I'd have 
  to "worry" it down from the top feed.  My replacement 2200 has no 
  trouble whatsoever with it-- sucks it right down using only gravity.

  eric perkins   >>






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hello Michel,

> <<..... For me, this is an acceptable amount of "burn off"
> and it's a really nice Paper.....>>
> 
>Clayton, by "burn off" do you mean a loss evenly spread all over the
sheet surface ? 

Yes, there was an overall uniform slight loss of brightness and slight
warming of paper color (by slight I mean _very_ slight).

I want to add some more comments about OBAs, to add to my previous
post (BTW, in that, I mentioned "P1" and "P2" - I should have said
"W1" and "W2", referring to the whiteness scale used in the article. 
I was thinking "paper" color...

I have not yet found a precise definition of what "burn off" actually
means.  Lots of people use the term without really knowing what it
means, including myself (I think we all have the right idea, but I
mean a precise scientific measureable definition).  Even Diana York,
when I asked her directly, couldn't tell me exactly what kinds were in
their coatings, how long they would last, or to what degree the
effects of burnoff would be.  Those web links were the most scientific
discussions of OBA I've yet found.  According to the second one, even
the term OBA is not scientifically precise:

"Optical brightening agent is used colloquially, but is not precise,
because brightness is defined for a small band of wavelengths only."

Neither of these links uses the term "burn off" either.  The closest
one comes to that subject was in the paragraph about "lightfastness".
 This brief mention is the most scientific treatment of the subject
I've seen so far.

From what I gather so far, there are many different kinds of OBAs,
they can have many different effects, and the newer ones are more
stable and long lasting.  As Diana pointed out, "Whiteness" and
"Brightness" are not necessarily the same thing.  Apparently, some
OBAs enhance one or the other or both.  This shows up in the papers. 
For example, Photo Rag is brighter, but not whiter, than Aurora Art
(in the article, PR is rated at W4 and Aurora is W2).  Premier Fine
Art (W6) supposedly has no OBAs but it's actually quite bright (bright
cream, not bright white).  So there's more going on here than we
understand.

The point of all this is that to merely state that a paper has OBAs
doesn't tell us enough to really know how the paper will perform.  We
don't know whether whiteness or brightness will be affected, to what
degree, or over what time period.  So I guess we need to collect
anecdotal evidence over time before we can begin to know what to
expect.  However, I've been in this forum over three years now and
can't recall ever seeing a "for sure" report of burn off.  Only
warnings that prints on OBA paper "might" eventually turn as yellow as
the non OBA paper is to begin with.  But that hasn't been my
experience so far.  My recent observation of the Condor prints was my
first real world experience that I'm confident is attributible to OBA
burn off.  I've got some prints on PR 188 unprotected on a bulletin
board under almost constant light for nearly three years.  The old MIS
FS ink has warmed and faded but the paper is still bright.  So how
long before burn off occurs on PR?



>Generally speaking I never noticed any lost in brightness per say 
>all over the print but get a yellowish hue unevenly spread along 
>the edges.

I haven't experienced that.  There have been lots of reports of
yellowing in reaction to certain chemical agents in packaging and
tape, etc, and often edge yellowing is reportedly due to prints being
stacked in a drawer or box, so only the edges are exposed
to...whatever.



>BTW, thanks for your article and the great work you have done there, 
>waiting to see the update.

You're welcome.  I'm happy to contribute something in return for all
I've received in this forum.


Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Why on earth would you not want to use the rear feeder on the 21/2200?  It
is extremely easy to use and you don't risk overloading the top feeder.

> From: sinwen <sinwen@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 00:19:11 +0100
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Matte Papers
> 
> 
> All this has to see with stiffness and not thickness. I have an Eps890 and I
> need to curve the Museo sheet to feed it, it is only 250gr but it is very
> stiff while I have no problem with a 305gr Konica.
> 
> Michel
> 
>   <<  My first 2200 had a little difficulty with 300 gm paper; I'd have
>   to "worry" it down from the top feed.  My replacement 2200 has no
>   trouble whatsoever with it-- sucks it right down using only gravity.
> 
>   eric perkins   >>
>

Clayton,

>... Bottom line is all OBAs are not created equal.  Older 
>formulations "burn off" more quickly than newer ones... 

>For example, I have observed in a Condor BW print, an extremely bright
>pure white paper, that after several months of open exposure to room
>light (daylight and fluorescent) the hard edge of brightness lessens
>noticeably ...
>Yet the paper remains a "white" paper, not even close to the cream
>color of most non-OBA papers ...

Interesting issues -- these "OBAs."  

Some of the articles say these should really be called "FWAs" for
"Fluorescent Whitening Agents."  

There do seem to be a number of different types and categories of
brighteners and whiteners. Some appear to be a type of dyes.

I've read of OBAs being referred to as "bad actors" that yellow in old
carpet and other cleaning solutions.  

They were said to be major sources of problems in the original RC
wet-process papers.  The byproducts apparently attacked the polyethylene.
That problem has been said by some to have been cured by better OBAs and
anti-oxidants, that themselves originally yellowed.

The Hawk Mtn. rep referenced an attack by OBAs on dye molecules.  Pigment
colors are often referred to as "dye stacks."  So it seems to me there is a
plausible argument to say the OBA byproducts might also attack color
pigments.

In the past I'd thought titanium dioxide (TiO2 -- in various forms) was one
of these OBAs, if not the main thing that was used.  However, it might be a
"whitener" that is in a bit of a different class.  Or it may depend on its
precise form.  

TiO2 has been referred to as a rather durable pigment that is very important
with respect to paper whiteness and opacity.  When I wanted the brightest
white paint for some project, titanium dioxide-based pigments were what I
used.  In its category it seems to very highly regarded.  It may be a
different category than the FWAs.  

On the other hand TiO2 is not an inert substance.  I recently read, for
example, that titanium dioxide was used as a catalyst for direct
sunlight-to-hydrogen solar power cells.  It breaks water into its
constituent parts. 


(As an interesting aside, these solar hydrogen generators are a very hot
technology.  In a hydrogen economy, we may be fueling our systems from the
hydrogen we generate ourselves. Imagine the ramifications of a
non-hydrocarbon-based world economy where we generated our power on our own
roof-tops.)  (Clear, sunny weather area real estate just took a jump.)


In the paper context, I've sometimes read of OBAs being associated with
producing reactive substances.  

My best fade tests have been with papers that are said to be "OBA" free but
still quite bright, modern paper (UltraSmooth and Premium Semigloss).  On
the other hand, good old EEM was barely behind these papers, and Arches Hot
Press was not impressive in fade tests.  Still, I give top credibility to
the actual experience that extremely old, natural-fiber paper books, written
with lamp black (carbon), can look great.  (My "carbon on cotton" mantra for
archiving.)  Some degree of buffering may be needed and in the best of these
older papers due to the calcium carbonate (or similar substance) that was in
the local water.


Lots of questions.  I'm reminded again that as the size of the spot of light
increases, the circumference of darkness expands.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Hello Paul,

>Interesting issues -- these "OBAs."  

Thanks, for the reply.  Yes, lots of food for thought.  Especially
interesting about Ti02 and hydrogen.

OBAs seems to be one of the areas where we know the least, so I hope
our knowledge and understanding of it grows along with other things.

--------------- New Subject

I've been wanting to ask you a question about UT7 - back in July I
began experimenting with it and am very pleased so far.  But I had to
suspend work shortly after in order to prepare for a business
conference in Europe which has now just taken place, so I hope to
return to my experiments soon.

The question is whether using curves (compared to using just the
sliders) will give more precise control over the contrast curve
(prevent too sudden drop-off into black - what I struggle with most),
or do the curves just give a wider range of color control?   I have
only used the sliders so far.

I am very impressed with UT7 - this family of inks is a major
achievement.  I marvel at the amount of work you have contributed to
the cause.  We all owe you a huge thanks.  I know it has been said but
I just wanted to add my chirp to the symphony.  Congrats and keep up
the good work!

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Clayton,

>... a question about UT7 

>The question is whether using curves (compared to using just the
>sliders) will give more precise control over the contrast curve
>(prevent too sudden drop-off into black - what I struggle with most),
>or do the curves just give a wider range of color control?   

Curves give much more control over the grayscale ramp also.

Hope the inkset works for you.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com