Digital BW, The Print

Ok here is my crazy idea.

Epson 2100/2200 using QTR - Am I right in saying that only 4 inks are 
used, Black, Light Black, Light Cyan, and Light Magenta. Yellow, 
Magenta and Cyan are not used. If this is this case it would easy to 
replace one of these with a gloss optimiser cart. I know MIS are 
producing a CFS for the Epson R800 and so gloss optimiser is 
available and so are empty carts for the 2100. Problem is how would 
you program QTR to use it ? Could it be done within the curve 
profiles? Am I going mad ?

Just a crazy thought.

Peter

About 5 months ago there was some discussion in the Epson Wide 
Format group about adapting the Epson 4000 to use the gloss 
optimizer. The thread died out after a few days without any 
resolution but perhaps it will be picked up here.  At that time no 
one thought the idea was crazy, just ahead of its time since almost 
no one had even received the (then hard to get) Epson 4000.


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "bwbonkers" 
<PeterDLevis@a...> wrote:
> 
> Ok here is my crazy idea.
> 
> Epson 2100/2200 using QTR - Am I right in saying that only 4 inks 
are 
> used, Black, Light Black, Light Cyan, and Light Magenta. Yellow, 
> Magenta and Cyan are not used. If this is this case it would easy 
to 
> replace one of these with a gloss optimiser cart. I know MIS are 
> producing a CFS for the Epson R800 and so gloss optimiser is 
> available and so are empty carts for the 2100. Problem is how 
would 

> you program QTR to use it ? Could it be done within the curve 
> profiles? Am I going mad ?
> 
> Just a crazy thought.
> 
> Peter

Well it would be easy to make a curve that had gloss optimiser in it and you
could simply either the C or M slot if you are using QTR with colour inks.
(A UC ink curve already mixes LC, LM, and LC to give a cool curve.)  But a
few questions arise:

* my understanding is that the optimiser goes on after the ink in the R800.
That is the ink is laid down and then the optimiser follows.  With QTR and
optimiser in one of the cartridges, optimiser would get mixed into the
dither pattern.  So this may be an issue.

* one would have to be sure that a 21/2200 can actually jet the optimiser.
I don't know enough about the mechanics of the optimiser on the R800.  Is it
laid down like ink or does it have some other apparatus?

> From: bwbonkers <PeterDLevis@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 20:32:51 -0000
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: [Digital BW] Bronzing - A Crazy Idea
> 
> 
> 
> Ok here is my crazy idea.
> 
> Epson 2100/2200 using QTR - Am I right in saying that only 4 inks are
> used, Black, Light Black, Light Cyan, and Light Magenta. Yellow,
> Magenta and Cyan are not used. If this is this case it would easy to
> replace one of these with a gloss optimiser cart. I know MIS are
> producing a CFS for the Epson R800 and so gloss optimiser is
> available and so are empty carts for the 2100. Problem is how would
> you program QTR to use it ? Could it be done within the curve
> profiles? Am I going mad ?
> 
> Just a crazy thought.
> 
> Peter

I use my printer for both colour and BW so replacing a cart with 
gloss optimizer is not on. However I pose the question because maybe 
there is a way. I agree that it must be applied afterwards and was 
thinking along the lines of applying the optimizer as a separate 
step. ie running the print though the printer a second time. Maybe 
even using an old printer that is not being used. However as you say 
how is it actually applied? I might just email MIS. They sell bottles 
of the stuff, they might be able to help.
 

Peter

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale 
<stevekale@b...> wrote:
> Well it would be easy to make a curve that had gloss optimiser in 
it and you
> could simply either the C or M slot if you are using QTR with 
colour inks.
> (A UC ink curve already mixes LC, LM, and LC to give a cool 
curve.)  But a
> few questions arise:
> 
> * my understanding is that the optimiser goes on after the ink in 
the R800.
> That is the ink is laid down and then the optimiser follows.  With 
QTR and
> optimiser in one of the cartridges, optimiser would get mixed into 
the
> dither pattern.  So this may be an issue.
> 
> * one would have to be sure that a 21/2200 can actually jet the 
optimiser.
> I don't know enough about the mechanics of the optimiser on the 
R800.  Is it
> laid down like ink or does it have some other apparatus?
> 
> 
> > From: bwbonkers <PeterDLevis@a...>
> > Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> > Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 20:32:51 -0000
> > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> > Subject: [Digital BW] Bronzing - A Crazy Idea
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Ok here is my crazy idea.
> > 
> > Epson 2100/2200 using QTR - Am I right in saying that only 4 inks 
are
> > used, Black, Light Black, Light Cyan, and Light Magenta. Yellow,
> > Magenta and Cyan are not used. If this is this case it would easy 
to
> > replace one of these with a gloss optimiser cart. I know MIS are
> > producing a CFS for the Epson R800 and so gloss optimiser is
> > available and so are empty carts for the 2100. Problem is how 
would

> > you program QTR to use it ? Could it be done within the curve
> > profiles? Am I going mad ?
> > 
> > Just a crazy thought.
> > 
> > Peter

Plaese keep us posted! I think an old printer with the optimiser in 
the K position might work-print black only, and take the gloss out 
to the edge after the print is dry and signed. I have a partially 
defunct 1270 that's sitting around just waiting for this!

Steve Karafyllakis

> even using an old printer that is not being used. However as you 
say 
> how is it actually applied? I might just email MIS. They sell 
bottles 
> of the stuff, they might be able to help.
>  
> 
> Peter
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale 
> <stevekale@b...> wrote:
> > Well it would be easy to make a curve that had gloss optimiser 
in 
> it and you
> > could simply either the C or M slot if you are using QTR with 
> colour inks.
> > (A UC ink curve already mixes LC, LM, and LC to give a cool 
> curve.)  But a
> > few questions arise:
> > 
> > * my understanding is that the optimiser goes on after the ink 
in 
> the R800.
> > That is the ink is laid down and then the optimiser follows.  
With 
> QTR and
> > optimiser in one of the cartridges, optimiser would get mixed 
into 
> the
> > dither pattern.  So this may be an issue.
> > 
> > * one would have to be sure that a 21/2200 can actually jet the 
> optimiser.
> > I don't know enough about the mechanics of the optimiser on the 
> R800.  Is it
> > laid down like ink or does it have some other apparatus?
> > 
> > 
> > > From: bwbonkers <PeterDLevis@a...>
> > > Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> > > Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 20:32:51 -0000
> > > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> > > Subject: [Digital BW] Bronzing - A Crazy Idea
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Ok here is my crazy idea.
> > > 
> > > Epson 2100/2200 using QTR - Am I right in saying that only 4 
inks 
> are
> > > used, Black, Light Black, Light Cyan, and Light Magenta. 
Yellow,
> > > Magenta and Cyan are not used. If this is this case it would 
easy 
> to
> > > replace one of these with a gloss optimiser cart. I know MIS 
are

> > > producing a CFS for the Epson R800 and so gloss optimiser is
> > > available and so are empty carts for the 2100. Problem is how 
> would
> > > you program QTR to use it ? Could it be done within the curve
> > > profiles? Am I going mad ?
> > > 
> > > Just a crazy thought.
> > > 
> > > Peter

I have an 1160 doing nothing and am tempted to experiment if MIS can 
answer some questions about what optimizer actually is. I do not want 
to damage the printer. 

I came to exactly the same conclusion, print with the black cart, BO 
style. If it worked, I even thought of rigging a CFS just for the 
black cart. I know MIS do all the bits. This would make it very cheap 
to run.

I'll email MIS today and see what they say.

Peter

PS Glad to know that I'm not crazy yet !!
--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Steven 
Karafyllakis" <steve@s...> wrote:

> 
> Plaese keep us posted! I think an old printer with the optimiser in 
> the K position might work-print black only, and take the gloss out 
> to the edge after the print is dry and signed. I have a partially 
> defunct 1270 that's sitting around just waiting for this!
> 
> Steve Karafyllakis
> 
> > even using an old printer that is not being used. However as you 
> say 
> > how is it actually applied? I might just email MIS. They sell 
> bottles 
> > of the stuff, they might be able to help.
> >  
> > 
> > Peter
> > 
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale 
> > <stevekale@b...> wrote:
> > > Well it would be easy to make a curve that had gloss optimiser 
> in 
> > it and you
> > > could simply either the C or M slot if you are using QTR with 
> > colour inks.
> > > (A UC ink curve already mixes LC, LM, and LC to give a cool 
> > curve.)  But a
> > > few questions arise:
> > > 
> > > * my understanding is that the optimiser goes on after the ink 
> in 
> > the R800.
> > > That is the ink is laid down and then the optimiser follows.  
> With 
> > QTR and
> > > optimiser in one of the cartridges, optimiser would get mixed 
> into 
> > the
> > > dither pattern.  So this may be an issue.
> > > 
> > > * one would have to be sure that a 21/2200 can actually jet the 
> > optimiser.
> > > I don't know enough about the mechanics of the optimiser on the 
> > R800.  Is it
> > > laid down like ink or does it have some other apparatus?
> > > 
> > > 
> > > > From: bwbonkers <PeterDLevis@a...>
> > > > Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> > > > Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2004 20:32:51 -0000
> > > > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> > > > Subject: [Digital BW] Bronzing - A Crazy Idea
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > Ok here is my crazy idea.
> > > > 
> > > > Epson 2100/2200 using QTR - Am I right in saying that only 4 
> inks 
> > are
> > > > used, Black, Light Black, Light Cyan, and Light Magenta. 
> Yellow,
> > > > Magenta and Cyan are not used. If this is this case it would 
> easy 
> > to
> > > > replace one of these with a gloss optimiser cart. I know MIS 
> are
> > > > producing a CFS for the Epson R800 and so gloss optimiser is
> > > > available and so are empty carts for the 2100. Problem is how 
> > would
> > > > you program QTR to use it ? Could it be done within the curve
> > > > profiles? Am I going mad ?
> > > > 
> > > > Just a crazy thought.
> > > > 
> > > > Peter

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "bwbonkers" <PeterDLevis@a...> wrote:
 
> Epson 2100/2200 using QTR - Am I right in saying that only 4 inks are 
> used, Black, Light Black, Light Cyan, and Light Magenta. Yellow, 
> Magenta and Cyan are not used.

As long as you're not using a "sepia" profile. The warm profiles use just black and light black (Epson "black" is warm). The cool profiles bring in light cyan and light magenta. 

> If this is this case it would easy to 
> replace one of these with a gloss optimiser cart. I know MIS are 
> producing a CFS for the Epson R800 and so gloss optimiser is 
> available and so are empty carts for the 2100. Problem is how would 
> you program QTR to use it ?

I would build the curve visually. Run a curve that shows at what percentage you get sufficient gloss from the "main" inks and don't need GLOP (Gloss Optimizer). Then bring in some percentage of GLOP from absolute white until you hit the "sufficiently glossy" point.

> Could it be done within the curve profiles?

As I pointed out, yes, it could.

> Am I going mad ?

You're going sane, in a mad world. Maybe that's even worse.
 
Ciao!

Joe

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale <stevekale@b...> wrote:
> Well it would be easy to make a curve that had gloss optimiser in it and you
> could simply either the C or M slot if you are using QTR with colour inks.

Exactly.

> (A UC ink curve already mixes LC, LM, and LC to give a cool curve.)  But a
> few questions arise:
> 
> * my understanding is that the optimiser goes on after the ink in the R800.
> That is the ink is laid down and then the optimiser follows.  With QTR and
> optimiser in one of the cartridges, optimiser would get mixed into the
> dither pattern.  So this may be an issue.

No. The gloss optimizer is mixed in with the dither pattern. It's the only way it can work. GLOP is just beads of the encapsulating resin that the colored (CMYK) pigment particles are coated with in the rest of the inks. It's applied between the pigment particles in lightly pigmented (or non pigmented) areas of the print, to insure that everything gets the same amount of glossy resin.
 
> * one would have to be sure that a 21/2200 can actually jet the optimiser.

Good point. But I'm guessing that it can. The R800 lays down smaller ink droplets than the 2X00. That means the R800 pigment (or GLOP) particles have to be at least as fine as the 2X00 particles, or the R800 would never be able to pull off its "tiny drop" magic.

> I don't know enough about the mechanics of the optimiser on the R800.  Is it
> laid down like ink or does it have some other apparatus?

Exactly like ink. Just another ink slot. Except it's "clear" ink, resin only, no pigment inside the particles.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Steven Karafyllakis" <steve@s...> wrote:
> 
> Plaese keep us posted! I think an old printer with the optimiser in 
> the K position might work-print black only, and take the gloss out 
> to the edge after the print is dry and signed. I have a partially 
> defunct 1270 that's sitting around just waiting for this!

That won't work. The GLOP isn't an overspray, like a print varnish. It's an "in between spray" that only gets laid down on lightly inked (or uninked) areas of the print. Your second printer would need to be able to perfectly march the alignment of the first printer. It would have to be able to lay GLOP precisely into lightly inked tiny details, like hair.

If you want to print B&W and Color with GLOP on both, the way to do it is to get a full RIP (or modify QTR for color use) and put the GLOP in the light cyan slot. The printer doesn't "lean" on light cyan the way it does light magenta. You can get a pretty good image using lightly dithered, full strength cyan. You'd have to build new B&W QTR curves that replaced the light cyan with full strength cyan.

Well, I guess I'm going to find out since I ordered a small bottle 
of it last night. I'm hoping it will serve as an overspray for matte 
paper. If there is no differential glossing then an even coat might 
bring a matte paper up to a soft sheen of some flavor, and even if 
it doesn't do that, it might increase DMax, or at least serve to 
protect the print surface? We shall see....

Steve K

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "koloshor" 
<wiz@n...> wrote:
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Steven 
Karafyllakis" <steve@s...> wrote:
> > 
> > Plaese keep us posted! I think an old printer with the optimiser 
in 
> > the K position might work-print black only, and take the gloss 
out 
> > to the edge after the print is dry and signed. I have a 
partially 
> > defunct 1270 that's sitting around just waiting for this!
> 
> That won't work. The GLOP isn't an overspray, like a print 
varnish. It's an "in between spray" that only gets laid down on 
lightly inked (or uninked) areas of the print. Your second printer 
would need to be able to perfectly march the alignment of the first 
printer. It would have to be able to lay GLOP precisely into lightly 
inked tiny details, like hair.
> 
> If you want to print B&W and Color with GLOP on both, the way to 
do it is to get a full RIP (or modify QTR for color use) and put the 
GLOP in the light cyan slot. The printer doesn't "lean" on light 
cyan the way it does light magenta. You can get a pretty good image 
using lightly dithered, full strength cyan. You'd have to build new 
B&W QTR curves that replaced the light cyan with full strength cyan.

Steve
Sounds like you are going to try my crazy idea. I have emailed MIS 
and am awaiting a reply. Previous post suggest that this is maybe a 
little more complex than I thought. If its not an overspray then 
things get to complex for me. However when I emailed MIS I came 
across an article about using their gloss optimizer as a second 
coating, ie putting a print through a R800 a second time when dry. 
Now they pointed out that their gloss optimizer is different to 
Epsons and using Epsons this way would not work. Hopefully MIS will 
be able to give me an update on their experiments. 

However it sounds like it won't damage your printer.

Good luck.

Peter

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Steven 
Karafyllakis" <steve@s...> wrote:
> 
> Well, I guess I'm going to find out since I ordered a small bottle 
> of it last night. I'm hoping it will serve as an overspray for 
matte 
> paper. If there is no differential glossing then an even coat might 
> bring a matte paper up to a soft sheen of some flavor, and even if 
> it doesn't do that, it might increase DMax, or at least serve to 
> protect the print surface? We shall see....
> 
> Steve K
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "koloshor" 
> <wiz@n...> wrote:
> > 
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Steven 
> Karafyllakis" <steve@s...> wrote:
> > > 
> > > Plaese keep us posted! I think an old printer with the 
optimiser 
> in 
> > > the K position might work-print black only, and take the gloss 
> out 
> > > to the edge after the print is dry and signed. I have a 
> partially 
> > > defunct 1270 that's sitting around just waiting for this!
> > 
> > That won't work. The GLOP isn't an overspray, like a print 
> varnish. It's an "in between spray" that only gets laid down on 
> lightly inked (or uninked) areas of the print. Your second printer 
> would need to be able to perfectly march the alignment of the first 
> printer. It would have to be able to lay GLOP precisely into 
lightly 
> inked tiny details, like hair.
> > 
> > If you want to print B&W and Color with GLOP on both, the way to 
> do it is to get a full RIP (or modify QTR for color use) and put 
the 

> GLOP in the light cyan slot. The printer doesn't "lean" on light 
> cyan the way it does light magenta. You can get a pretty good image 
> using lightly dithered, full strength cyan. You'd have to build new 
> B&W QTR curves that replaced the light cyan with full strength cyan.

Steve Kale

(Sent from my Sony Ericsson P900)

That won't work. The GLOP isn't an overspray, like a print varnish. It's an "in between spray" that only gets laid down on lightly inked (or uninked) areas of the print."

Then here is an issue. QTR can only treat gloss as an ink, laying it down lightly in the highlights and heavily in the shadows. It cant do the inverse (in present form).

I suspect the lay down of gloss is a lot more complex. For example the R800 has the option to lay down gloss outside the image area suggesting that it likely does need to be laid down where there is no ink.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Kale" <stevekale@b...> wrote:
> 
> Then here is an issue. QTR can only treat gloss as an ink, laying it down lightly in the highlights and heavily in the shadows. It cant do the inverse (in present form).

Sure, it can. Have a look at one of the .quad files, and you'll see. For an Epson 2200 file, there are seven curves in the file. Each one controls a particular "channel". Each has 256 values, ranging from pure white to pure black. Typically, all seven curves start at 0, some might stay at zero, and others increase or decrease.

I'm uploading a version of EEM_2200-warm.quad where I've added a dash (4.3%, to be exact) of yellow in the no-ink areas. This is not for serious use, just an experiment in "filling in" GLOP. It will print ourtageously ugly (yellow is yellow, after all) on glossy paper with PK (not MK) ink, but it will show you a reasonably "bronzing free" print. 4.3% isn't the proper value, I suspect ssomething closer to 8% would be better. But it's a taste.

> I suspect the lay down of gloss is a lot more complex. For example the R800 has the option to lay down gloss outside the image area suggesting that it likely does need to be laid down where there is no ink.

In QTR, that option is always turned on. QTR will lay down whatever the curves tell it is zero density in the entire paper area. So you're going to use a lot of GLOP.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "koloshor" <wiz@n...> wrote:
> 
> I'm uploading a version of EEM_2200-warm.quad where I've added a dash (4.3%, to be exact) of yellow in the no-ink areas. This is not for serious use, just an experiment in "filling in" GLOP. It will print ourtageously ugly (yellow is yellow, after all) on glossy paper with PK (not MK) ink, but it will show you a reasonably "bronzing free" print. 4.3% isn't the proper value, I suspect ssomething closer to 8% would be better. But it's a taste.

Either I can't figure out how to upload, or I don't have uploading privelages. Let me know if you'd like me to email you the file. It's useless for printing, just a demonstration of how QTR can happily lay down ink even in the zero density parts of the print.

I did another quick experiment. If GLOP is anything like yellow ink, you're probably looking at about 20% density to get a decent image.

Peter- If I had been aware that MIS already had their version of 
GLOP I would have tried it already. They've been testing some 
version of this for a couple years, perhaps its time has come. As 
for damaging my printer-heck it was free, and intended for the 
trashpile because the color head isn't working, so no great loss 
anyway. Mind you, I don't see why it should damage the K head, as 
long as I flush it out and clean it afterwards. I'll keep you posted.

Steve

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "bwbonkers" 
<PeterDLevis@a...> wrote:
> 
> Steve
> Sounds like you are going to try my crazy idea. I have emailed MIS 
> and am awaiting a reply. Previous post suggest that this is maybe 
a 
> little more complex than I thought. If its not an overspray then 
> things get to complex for me. However when I emailed MIS I came 
> across an article about using their gloss optimizer as a second 
> coating, ie putting a print through a R800 a second time when dry. 
> Now they pointed out that their gloss optimizer is different to 
> Epsons and using Epsons this way would not work. Hopefully MIS 
will 
> be able to give me an update on their experiments. 
> 
> However it sounds like it won't damage your printer.
> 
> Good luck.
> 
> Peter
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Steven 
> Karafyllakis" <steve@s...> wrote:
> > 
> > Well, I guess I'm going to find out since I ordered a small 
bottle 
> > of it last night.

Hi

Could you send me the file so I can see what you are doing. Sounds 
interesting.

Peter

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "koloshor" 
<wiz@n...> wrote:
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "koloshor" 
<wiz@n...> wrote:
> > 
> > I'm uploading a version of EEM_2200-warm.quad where I've added a 
dash (4.3%, to be exact) of yellow in the no-ink areas. This is not 
for serious use, just an experiment in "filling in" GLOP. It will 
print ourtageously ugly (yellow is yellow, after all) on glossy paper 
with PK (not MK) ink, but it will show you a reasonably "bronzing 
free" print. 4.3% isn't the proper value, I suspect ssomething closer 
to 8% would be better. But it's a taste.
> 
> Either I can't figure out how to upload, or I don't have uploading 
privelages. Let me know if you'd like me to email you the file. It's 
useless for printing, just a demonstration of how QTR can happily lay 
down ink even in the zero density parts of the print.
> 
> I did another quick experiment. If GLOP is anything like yellow 
ink, you're probably looking at about 20% density to get a decent 
image.

What about making up an 18% (or whatever tone) gray page, and sending-through 
the previously-printed page a second time, over-printing the gray page with your 
"GLOP?"

Speaking of coatings, I've tried just about everything that comes in a spray can 
to boost D-max on matte paper. Nothing did it. However, going back to a thread 
like this of about a year ago, I bought a gallon of Hydrocote Polyshield Satin 
and applied it with a brush to PhotoRag 308. It dropped the shadows down at 
least a stop, increased color saturation, and barely touched paper whites. It 
also left some brush strokes and some tiny "fish eyes." Probably, with 
"painterly" subjects, especially on canvas or similarly-textured paper, it would 
be acceptable. Recently, I diluted it with water to about 1:3, and applied it 
with an ultra-smooth, short, "detail" paint roller. No matter how slowly I 
rolled, some foam appeared in the roller's wake, but for some reason it 
disappeared as it dried, leaving a blemish-free semi-matte surface, with all the 
previous benefits. A few hours later, I applied a second coat. The second 
application was much easier, but all it did was bring the semi-matte up to a 
semi-gloss, or "satin." The coating is super tough and waterproof. I 
single-coated the back of my test print, and then chopped it into squarish 
coasters, and put a few under the cat's food and water dishes, as well as under 
several hot cups of tea, and a cold ale or two. No problems, although I presume 
that eventually liquid would seep into the paper sandwich from the edges.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Yes I write my own QTR curves. My point was that at step 100 QTR lays down more in than at 5. You were saying that glosop was used as a filler. So therefore you would need QTR to treat an ink slot inversely to normal so that at low densities more rather than less of that ink would be laid down.

Steve Kale

(Sent from my Sony Ericsson P900)

________________ Reply Header ________________

Subject:	Re: [Digital BW] Bronzing - A Crazy Idea
Author:	"koloshor" <wiz@...>
Date:		27th November 2004 7:20:54 pm



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Kale" <stevekale@b...> wrote:
> 
> Then here is an issue. QTR can only treat gloss as an ink, laying it down lightly in the highlights and heavily in the shadows. It cant do the inverse (in present form).

Sure, it can. Have a look at one of the .quad files, and you'll see. For an Epson 2200 file, there are seven curves in the file. Each one controls a particular "channel". Each has 256 values, ranging from pure white to pure black. Typically, all seven curves start at 0, some might stay at zero, and others increase or decrease.

I'm uploading a version of EEM_2200-warm.quad where I've added a dash (4.3%, to be exact) of yellow in the no-ink areas. This is not for serious use, just an experiment in "filling in" GLOP. It will print ourtageously ugly (yellow is yellow, after all) on glossy paper with PK (not MK) ink, but it will show you a reasonably "bronzing free" print. 4.3% isn't the proper value, I suspect ssomething closer to 8% would be better. But it's a taste.

> I suspect the lay down of gloss is a lot more complex. For example the R800 has the option to lay down gloss outside the image area suggesting that it likely does need to be laid down where there is no ink.

In QTR, that option is always turned on. QTR will lay down whatever the curves tell it is zero density in the entire paper area. So you're going to use a lot of GLOP.






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OK now that I am back at my computer I can see how one might "hack" the
.quad file and enter in values for the ink slot that contains the gloss
optimiser.  But I have some questions:

* what is the scale in the quad ink curves?  Is it just 16bit ie 0 to
65,536? (looks like it is)
* as the inks are additive then one could presumably calc the inverse and
record it in the gloss optimizer slot
* will gloss optimizer affect the curve design and linearisation process ie
does it affect density readings?  I guess this could be tested.  If it
doesn't affect density in any way then the process of incorporating gloss
optimiser into QTR's front end would be greatly simplified.
* would it be sensible to assume that an ink limit for the gloss optimizer
set at the same level as K would be about right?  Ie that gloss optimiser
has the same "coverage" as K.  Then 0 density would be set at K's 256 value
and subsequent values simply set at this less the lay down for the other
active inks.

> From: koloshor <wiz@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2004 19:20:54 -0000
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Bronzing - A Crazy Idea
> 
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Kale"
> <stevekale@b...> wrote:
>> 
>> Then here is an issue. QTR can only treat gloss as an ink, laying it down
>> lightly in the highlights and heavily in the shadows. It cant do the inverse
>> (in present form).
> 
> Sure, it can. Have a look at one of the .quad files, and you'll see.
> For an 
> Epson 2200 file, there are seven curves in the file. Each one controls a
> particular "channel". Each has 256 values, ranging from pure white to pure
> black. Typically, all seven curves start at 0, some might stay at zero, and
> others increase or decrease.
> 
> I'm uploading a version of EEM_2200-warm.quad where I've added a dash (4.3%,
> to be exact) of yellow in the no-ink areas. This is not for serious use, just
> an experiment in "filling in" GLOP. It will print ourtageously ugly (yellow is
> yellow, after all) on glossy paper with PK (not MK) ink, but it will show you
> a reasonably "bronzing free" print. 4.3% isn't the proper value, I suspect
> ssomething closer to 8% would be better. But it's a taste.
> 
>> I suspect the lay down of gloss is a lot more complex. For example the R800
>> has the option to lay down gloss outside the image area suggesting that it
>> likely does need to be laid down where there is no ink.
> 
> In QTR, that option is always turned on. QTR will lay down whatever the curves
> tell it is zero density in the entire paper area. So you're going to use a lot
> of GLOP.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
> they are often being updated.
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
> page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
> Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the membership
> without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
> printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from the
> membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and
> Moderators. See ³Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines² in the Files section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> 
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
> YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE ³OWNER² AND
> ³MODERATORS² OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU
> FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY
> DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL,
> USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  ³OWNER² AND ³MODERATORS² OF
> DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH
> DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW,
> THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR
> TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE
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> 
> 
> 
>  
> 
> 
>

This suggests it is an "overspray" ie it is applied evenly to the entire
image (or even page) rather than a filler dependent on the deposit of other
ink:

http://inksupply.info/index.php?_a=knowledgebase&_j=questiondetails&_i=105

Remember also that the R800 can gloss the entire paper - outside the image
area's borders. Note the use of "fit to page" in the instructions above.

I would use either the Cyan or Magenta slot so that (assuming you are using
UC colour inks rather than quads) you still have access to LC, LM and Y for
cooling/toning.  In the 21/2200 UC curves an equal amount of LC and LM are
used to cool the LK.

> From: koloshor <wiz@...>
 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Steven Karafyllakis"
> <steve@s...> wrote:
>> 
>> Plaese keep us posted! I think an old printer with the optimiser in
>> the K position might work-print black only, and take the gloss out
>> to the edge after the print is dry and signed. I have a partially
>> defunct 1270 that's sitting around just waiting for this!
> 
> That won't work. The GLOP isn't an overspray, like a print varnish. It's an
> "in between spray" that only gets laid down on lightly inked (or uninked)
> areas of the print. Your second printer would need to be able to perfectly
> march the alignment of the first printer. It would have to be able to lay GLOP
> precisely into lightly inked tiny details, like hair.
> 
> If you want to print B&W and Color with GLOP on both, the way to do it is to
> get a full RIP (or modify QTR for color use) and put the GLOP in the light
> cyan slot. The printer doesn't "lean" on light cyan the way it does light
> magenta. You can get a pretty good image using lightly dithered, full strength
> cyan. You'd have to build new B&W QTR curves that replaced the light cyan with
> full strength cyan.

Hi Steve, 

I'm just drawing conclusions from the information on that web page (whether
they hold up in practice is a totally different matter!) but their description
is pretty clear. They tell you to create a file that is basically just a page
of white, then over-print that on top of an image that has already been
printed in the normal way. This is much different to the Epson standard way,
which only uses the GLOP as a filler in pale areas of the image that otherwise
wouldn't carry any ink. Presumably, in that case the GLOP is dithered in with
the coloured inks in pale areas.

The MIS approach is just like using the printer to do a clear overspray, and
it ought to work just as well if you put the GLOP in any old cheap printer and
over-print a page of full black (or grey, if you want less GLOP). I don't
think the two approaches are much related, except for the fact that the same
goo is used.

-= mike =-

-----Original Message-----
From: Steve Kale
Sent: 30 November 2004 13:37
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] QTR and Gloss Optimizer


Well I think the place to start is to better understand how the R800 actually
works, ie Epson's intentions.  Is the gloss woven into the dither or does it
follow the ink lay down like a spray (in the way the last set of dots follows
all the rest)?  Is it laid down evenly regardless of the amount of ink (ie
does a 100% patch receive the same amount of gloss as 0% patch)?
And yes there is no reason for the original print to be printed on an R800.
Also, there is no reason for the glosser to be an R800.  Any printer whereby
you can control the individual ink jets with QTR can be used.  The question is
whether to lay down the gloss as part of the original print, ie as part of the
dither, and if so then evenly or in inverse proportion to the amount of actual
ink, or whether to use the 2 step process to ensure an overspray.


> From: "Nunan, Mike"
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 12:50:15 -0000
> To: "'DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com'"
> <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: RE: [Digital BW] QTR and Gloss Optimizer -- some lateral 
> thinking
> 
> 
> Hi Steve,
> 
> Thanks for drawing attention to that, it's given me an interesting 
> idea. The method they describe uses the "GLOP" in a different way to Epson's
intentions.
> As you say, it's doing an overspray, hence the recommendation to use a 
> white (or nearly completely white) file for a second run on top of the 
> original print. What first occurred to me was that there is no reason 
> why the original print needs to be produced on the R800. What's to 
> stop you from coating, say, an A4 2200 print in this way? Furthermore, why
use an R800 for the coating?
> Couldn't you use a C84 for this? I would be similar to doing an 
> overspray with Premier ArtShield or Krylon, but guaranteed to be even.
> 
> -= mike =-
> 
>

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Yes they suggest this additional approach because their gloss is not yet as
good as Epson's - this is a second coating to try to bring the original MIS
gloss R800 print up to the level of a straight Epson gloss R800 print.
Given we could do either approach with QTR (and good gloss) then it begs the
question as to which would be "ideal".  Just trying to take the "presumably"
out of the equation - that is, find the best way to get the first coating
down....  ;-)

> From: "Nunan, Mike" <mike.nunan@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 16:57:38 -0000
> To: "'DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com'"
> <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: RE: [Digital BW] QTR and Gloss Optimizer
> 
> 
> Hi Steve, 
> 
> I'm just drawing conclusions from the information on that web page (whether
> they hold up in practice is a totally different matter!) but their description
> is pretty clear. They tell you to create a file that is basically just a page
> of white, then over-print that on top of an image that has already been
> printed in the normal way. This is much different to the Epson standard way,
> which only uses the GLOP as a filler in pale areas of the image that otherwise
> wouldn't carry any ink. Presumably, in that case the GLOP is dithered in with
> the coloured inks in pale areas.
> 
> The MIS approach is just like using the printer to do a clear overspray, and
> it ought to work just as well if you put the GLOP in any old cheap printer and
> over-print a page of full black (or grey, if you want less GLOP). I don't
> think the two approaches are much related, except for the fact that the same
> goo is used.
> 
> -= mike =-
>