Yahoo Groups archive

Digital BW, The Print

Index last updated: 2026-04-28 22:56 UTC

Thread

RE: [Digital BW] QTR and Gloss Optimizer -- some lateral thinking

RE: [Digital BW] QTR and Gloss Optimizer -- some lateral thinking

2004-11-30 by Nunan, Mike

Hi Steve,

Thanks for drawing attention to that, it's given me an interesting idea. The
method they describe uses the "GLOP" in a different way to Epson's intentions.
As you say, it's doing an overspray, hence the recommendation to use a white
(or nearly completely white) file for a second run on top of the original
print. What first occurred to me was that there is no reason why the original
print needs to be produced on the R800. What's to stop you from coating, say,
an A4 2200 print in this way? Furthermore, why use an R800 for the coating?
Couldn't you use a C84 for this? I would be similar to doing an overspray with
Premier ArtShield or Krylon, but guaranteed to be even.

-= mike =-
Show quoted textHide quoted text
-----Original Message-----
From: Steve Kale
Sent: 30 November 2004 11:13
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] QTR and Gloss Optimizer


This suggests it is an "overspray" ie it is applied evenly to the entire image
(or even page) rather than a filler dependent on the deposit of other
ink:

http://inksupply.info/index.php?_a=knowledgebase&_j=questiondetails&_i=105

Remember also that the R800 can gloss the entire paper - outside the image
area's borders. Note the use of "fit to page" in the instructions above.

I would use either the Cyan or Magenta slot so that (assuming you are using UC
colour inks rather than quads) you still have access to LC, LM and Y for
cooling/toning.  In the 21/2200 UC curves an equal amount of LC and LM are
used to cool the LK.


> From: koloshor <wiz@...>
 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Steven Karafyllakis"
> <steve@s...> wrote:
>> 
>> Plaese keep us posted! I think an old printer with the optimiser in 
>> the K position might work-print black only, and take the gloss out to 
>> the edge after the print is dry and signed. I have a partially 
>> defunct 1270 that's sitting around just waiting for this!
> 
> That won't work. The GLOP isn't an overspray, like a print varnish. 
> It's an "in between spray" that only gets laid down on lightly inked 
> (or uninked) areas of the print. Your second printer would need to be 
> able to perfectly march the alignment of the first printer. It would 
> have to be able to lay GLOP precisely into lightly inked tiny details, like
hair.
> 
> If you want to print B&W and Color with GLOP on both, the way to do it 
> is to get a full RIP (or modify QTR for color use) and put the GLOP in 
> the light cyan slot. The printer doesn't "lean" on light cyan the way 
> it does light magenta. You can get a pretty good image using lightly 
> dithered, full strength cyan. You'd have to build new B&W QTR curves 
> that replaced the light cyan with full strength cyan.

==============================================================================
This message is for the sole use of the intended recipient. If you received
this message in error please delete it and notify us. If this message was
misdirected, CSFB does not waive any confidentiality or privilege. CSFB
retains and monitors electronic communications sent through its network.
Instructions transmitted over this system are not binding on CSFB until they
are confirmed by us. Message transmission is not guaranteed to be secure.
==============================================================================

Re: [Digital BW] QTR and Gloss Optimizer

2004-11-30 by Steve Kale

Well I think the place to start is to better understand how the R800
actually works, ie Epson's intentions.  Is the gloss woven into the dither
or does it follow the ink lay down like a spray (in the way the last set of
dots follows all the rest)?  Is it laid down evenly regardless of the amount
of ink (ie does a 100% patch receive the same amount of gloss as 0% patch)?
And yes there is no reason for the original print to be printed on an R800.
Also, there is no reason for the glosser to be an R800.  Any printer whereby
you can control the individual ink jets with QTR can be used.  The question
is whether to lay down the gloss as part of the original print, ie as part
of the dither, and if so then evenly or in inverse proportion to the amount
of actual ink, or whether to use the 2 step process to ensure an overspray.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> From: "Nunan, Mike" <mike.nunan@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 12:50:15 -0000
> To: "'DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com'"
> <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: RE: [Digital BW] QTR and Gloss Optimizer -- some lateral thinking
> 
> 
> Hi Steve,
> 
> Thanks for drawing attention to that, it's given me an interesting idea. The
> method they describe uses the "GLOP" in a different way to Epson's intentions.
> As you say, it's doing an overspray, hence the recommendation to use a white
> (or nearly completely white) file for a second run on top of the original
> print. What first occurred to me was that there is no reason why the original
> print needs to be produced on the R800. What's to stop you from coating, say,
> an A4 2200 print in this way? Furthermore, why use an R800 for the coating?
> Couldn't you use a C84 for this? I would be similar to doing an overspray with
> Premier ArtShield or Krylon, but guaranteed to be even.
> 
> -= mike =-
> 
>

RE: [Digital BW] QTR and Gloss Optimizer

2004-11-30 by Paul D. DeRocco

> From: Steve Kale [mailto:stevekale@...]
>
> Well I think the place to start is to better understand how the R800
> actually works, ie Epson's intentions.  Is the gloss woven into the dither
> or does it follow the ink lay down like a spray (in the way the
> last set of
> dots follows all the rest)?  Is it laid down evenly regardless of
> the amount
> of ink (ie does a 100% patch receive the same amount of gloss as
> 0% patch)?
> And yes there is no reason for the original print to be printed
> on an R800.

I don't know where the Epson printers lay down GLOP: on top of only the
black ink, on top of the other ink, or in the spaces between the ink. I
would guess the latter, and one might be able to tell by watching the GLOP
level on a light print versus a dark print. But it seems clear that it
doesn't lay it down everywhere, or the GLOP cart would probably be quite a
bit bigger. However, since GLOP doesn't have a color, it's probably harmless
to the image quality to lay it down everywhere, the excess merely being
wasted.

Another question is whether one should wait for the original print to dry
thoroughly before using a separate pass (or separate printer) to lay down
any overcoating. The glycols in Epson inks take several days to outgas, and
I don't know if extra GLOP would just lengthen this a little, or
fundamentally upset the drying process. I expect the GLOP may just be the
same ink carrier without pigment.

--

Ciao,               Paul D. DeRocco
Paul                mailto:pderocco@...

Re: [Digital BW] QTR and Gloss Optimizer

2004-11-30 by Steve Kale

So I asked MIS what the story was with their gloss optimizer and whether it
was true that they were not happy with it as their website implied.  I also
asked if they had any insight as to how it was laid down by the R800.  Here
is their response:

"Basically you are correct, we were not satisfied with the quality of the
gloss coating. Although it does look okay it did not meet the standards we
are trying to achieve.
 
With regard to the R800, to our knowledge the system does spray an after
coat. The system actually may use the gloss coating in various way depending
on the paper selection. We are not that familiar with the specifics of the
printer operation.
 
As for attempting to use gloss in a non gloss printer. Our experience is
that these efforts continually fail. There are just simply too many
variables that effect the use of gloss, and trying to use it a printer which
it is not designed for is very difficult."

With respect to the first paragraph, I admire their honesty. The second is a
little contradictory.  I am not sure that the third is correct given we
don't seem to have clarity in the second.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> From: "Paul D. DeRocco" <pderocco@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 09:49:52 -0800
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: RE: [Digital BW] QTR and Gloss Optimizer
> 
> 
>> From: Steve Kale [mailto:stevekale@...]
>> 
>> Well I think the place to start is to better understand how the R800
>> actually works, ie Epson's intentions.  Is the gloss woven into the dither
>> or does it follow the ink lay down like a spray (in the way the
>> last set of
>> dots follows all the rest)?  Is it laid down evenly regardless of
>> the amount
>> of ink (ie does a 100% patch receive the same amount of gloss as
>> 0% patch)?
>> And yes there is no reason for the original print to be printed
>> on an R800.
> 
> I don't know where the Epson printers lay down GLOP: on top of only the
> black ink, on top of the other ink, or in the spaces between the ink. I
> would guess the latter, and one might be able to tell by watching the GLOP
> level on a light print versus a dark print. But it seems clear that it
> doesn't lay it down everywhere, or the GLOP cart would probably be quite a
> bit bigger. However, since GLOP doesn't have a color, it's probably harmless
> to the image quality to lay it down everywhere, the excess merely being
> wasted.
> 
> Another question is whether one should wait for the original print to dry
> thoroughly before using a separate pass (or separate printer) to lay down
> any overcoating. The glycols in Epson inks take several days to outgas, and
> I don't know if extra GLOP would just lengthen this a little, or
> fundamentally upset the drying process. I expect the GLOP may just be the
> same ink carrier without pigment.
> 
> --
> 
> Ciao,               Paul D. DeRocco
> Paul                mailto:pderocco@...

Re: [Digital BW] QTR and Gloss Optimizer

2004-11-30 by Roy Harrington

I haven't used the R800 at all yet, but I have looked at the specs and the
interface information.  From everything I've seem it sure looks like the gloss
is treated like another ordinary ink.  I can't see anyway it would be put on
after the ink, so I think it must be put on mixed and dithered with the color
inks.  How much is used could certainly be varied depending on the
amount of color ink.  

Roy

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale <stevekale@b...> 
wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> So I asked MIS what the story was with their gloss optimizer and whether it
> was true that they were not happy with it as their website implied.  I also
> asked if they had any insight as to how it was laid down by the R800.  Here
> is their response:
> 
> "Basically you are correct, we were not satisfied with the quality of the
> gloss coating. Although it does look okay it did not meet the standards we
> are trying to achieve.
>  
> With regard to the R800, to our knowledge the system does spray an after
> coat. The system actually may use the gloss coating in various way depending
> on the paper selection. We are not that familiar with the specifics of the
> printer operation.
>  
> As for attempting to use gloss in a non gloss printer. Our experience is
> that these efforts continually fail. There are just simply too many
> variables that effect the use of gloss, and trying to use it a printer which
> it is not designed for is very difficult."
> 
> With respect to the first paragraph, I admire their honesty. The second is a
> little contradictory.  I am not sure that the third is correct given we
> don't seem to have clarity in the second.
> 
> 
> 
> > From: "Paul D. DeRocco" <pderocco@i...>
> > Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> > Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 09:49:52 -0800
> > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> > Subject: RE: [Digital BW] QTR and Gloss Optimizer
> > 
> > 
> >> From: Steve Kale [mailto:stevekale@b...]
> >> 
> >> Well I think the place to start is to better understand how the R800
> >> actually works, ie Epson's intentions.  Is the gloss woven into the dither
> >> or does it follow the ink lay down like a spray (in the way the
> >> last set of
> >> dots follows all the rest)?  Is it laid down evenly regardless of
> >> the amount
> >> of ink (ie does a 100% patch receive the same amount of gloss as
> >> 0% patch)?
> >> And yes there is no reason for the original print to be printed
> >> on an R800.
> > 
> > I don't know where the Epson printers lay down GLOP: on top of only the
> > black ink, on top of the other ink, or in the spaces between the ink. I
> > would guess the latter, and one might be able to tell by watching the GLOP
> > level on a light print versus a dark print. But it seems clear that it
> > doesn't lay it down everywhere, or the GLOP cart would probably be quite a
> > bit bigger. However, since GLOP doesn't have a color, it's probably harmless
> > to the image quality to lay it down everywhere, the excess merely being
> > wasted.
> > 
> > Another question is whether one should wait for the original print to dry
> > thoroughly before using a separate pass (or separate printer) to lay down
> > any overcoating. The glycols in Epson inks take several days to outgas, and
> > I don't know if extra GLOP would just lengthen this a little, or
> > fundamentally upset the drying process. I expect the GLOP may just be the
> > same ink carrier without pigment.
> > 
> > --
> > 
> > Ciao,               Paul D. DeRocco
> > Paul                mailto:pderocco@i...

Re: [Digital BW] QTR and Gloss Optimizer

2004-11-30 by Steve Kale

If this is the case a useful test would presumably be to tweak a .quad file
to deliver gloss at a rate which is inverted to the total amount of other
ink laid down for a particular 0-255 value.

What a pity the R800 and 2100 cartridges aren't the same.  One would think
Epson would try to get some economies here and basically have the same
cartridges for each.  If so one could re-chip a gloss cartridge and bang it
in a 21/2200.  

Are the 21/2200 PK,MK, C, M and Y inks different from those for the R800?
The R800 are branded "high gloss" but I was wondering if this is just
advertising fluff 'cos the R800 has the gloss optimizer.


Another thought:  if gloss is simply the resin without the pigment and MIS
is having trouble getting a good gloss product it doesn't suggest much for
their UC equivalent inks.....
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> From: Roy Harrington <roy@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2004 21:31:54 -0000
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] QTR and Gloss Optimizer
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I haven't used the R800 at all yet, but I have looked at the specs and the
> interface information.  From everything I've seem it sure looks like the gloss
> is treated like another ordinary ink.  I can't see anyway it would be put on
> after the ink, so I think it must be put on mixed and dithered with the color
> inks.  How much is used could certainly be varied depending on the
> amount of color ink.
> 
> Roy
>

Re: [Digital BW] QTR and Gloss Optimizer

2004-12-01 by Steve Kale

Yes it is.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> From: "Paul D. DeRocco" <pderocco@...>


> I expect the GLOP may just be the
> same ink carrier without pigment.
> 
> --
> 
> Ciao,               Paul D. DeRocco
> Paul                mailto:pderocco@...

Move to quarantaine

This moves the raw source file on disk only. The archive index is not changed automatically, so you still need to run a manual refresh afterward.