Digital BW, The Print

I am new to the digital photo domain. I have a canon g5, a canon i960 
printer for color, and just purchased a c86 for b&w.

I want to learn photoshop, but I am not running XP (and the computer 
that I have will not upgrade easily to xp) which rules out the 
current version of photoshop.

I was hoping to be able to pick up a used version of 7.0 to keep the 
cost down.

Thanks again for your help.

While Photoshop is the king of image editors, other alternatives might be
Photoshop Elements or Picture Windows.  I noticed Elements 2 ships with
1280s.  So, I suspect a number of people on the list have them sitting
around un-opened.  What it lacks is curves, but it does take layers.
Picture Windows has curves but lacks layers.  It's a $50 download from
Digital Light and Color for the 8 bit version.\

I thought PS 7 was a dog.  I use CS or PS 6.  However, all of these are
upgrades and won't load without a pre-existing full PS.  Between that and
licensing problems, it may be hard to find a full PS7 at a great price.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 

-----Original Message-----
From: Steve [mailto:fireofgodnow@...] 
Sent: Monday, December 27, 2004 8:31 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] Copy of Photoshop 7 for Sale?



I am new to the digital photo domain. I have a canon g5, a canon i960 
printer for color, and just purchased a c86 for b&w.

I want to learn photoshop, but I am not running XP (and the computer 
that I have will not upgrade easily to xp) which rules out the 
current version of photoshop.

I was hoping to be able to pick up a used version of 7.0 to keep the 
cost down.

Thanks again for your help.






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Paul & Steve,

Photoshop Elements 3 is now available, with a lot more stuff from CS 
incorporated into it. For example it now has Camera Raw conversions, the 
Highlight/Shadow sliders, Healing brush, 16bit on most items, etc. You can 
upgrade from 2, so if you get a freebie copy of 2, it will just cost you the 
upgrade price. Well worth it, as it has most of what normal photographers 
want. No CMYK, so not suitable for pro press work.

Bob Frost.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Paul Roark" <paul.roark@...>



While Photoshop is the king of image editors, other alternatives might be
Photoshop Elements or Picture Windows.  I noticed Elements 2 ships with
1280s.  So, I suspect a number of people on the list have them sitting
around un-opened.  What it lacks is curves, but it does take layers.
Picture Windows has curves but lacks layers.  It's a $50 download from
Digital Light and Color for the 8 bit version.\

I thought PS 7 was a dog.  I use CS or PS 6.  However, all of these are
upgrades and won't load without a pre-existing full PS.  Between that and
licensing problems, it may be hard to find a full PS7 at a great price.

BOB!! 

Normal photographer?  I KNOW you didn't mean that.  It's almost an oxymoron.

Does Elements now have IPTC input?  That would be one heck of a lot less
overhead in memory, etc. for news work.

Seth

-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Frost [mailto:bob@...] 
from 2, so if you get a freebie copy of 2, it will just cost you the upgrade
price. Well worth it, as it has most of what normal photographers want. No
CMYK, so not suitable for pro press work.

Bob Frost.

Seth,

The Elements 3 browser seems much the same as CS, including IPTC, but I have 
only had it a week or so, and haven't explored everything. It doesn't have 
the Batch process option, but that is because the Russell Williams 
batch-processing-plugin seems to be part of the main Elements 3 program.

One interesting feature of the Camera Raw in Elements 3 is that it 
automatically works out the settings for the first four sliders, thus 
'correcting' the image automatically. It doesn't always get it right of 
course, but makes a useful starting point for some - you can turn off this 
auto feature by unchecking the auto box or just grabbing a slider and moving 
it, while leaving the others at their auto settings.

As well as the Editor part of the program (including the File Browser), 
there is also an Organiser part. Not explore that at all yet.

Not sure it uses any less memory; in fact the system requirements suggest it 
needs more memory than CS!

As to its suitablility for 'normal' photographers, I forgot I was on the B&W 
list!

Bob Frost

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Seth Rossman" <seth@...>

Does Elements now have IPTC input?  That would be one heck of a lot less
overhead in memory, etc. for news work.

Bob, please check information on PS Elements 3 as it
applies to 16-bit editing.

As a long time user of Photoshop (the full version), I
believe the BEST and MOST IMPORTANT improvement of
Photoshop CS over earlier versions is the availability
of full 16-bit editing of Levels, Curves,
Hue/Saturation, Color Balance, etc. adjustment layers.
 As a photo restorer, don't I wish all the former
images I've restored through Photoshop 5, 6 and 7 were
still in 16-bit mode!

I've never used PS Elements; however, I read that it
is limited to 8-bit editing of adjustment layers.  If
so, even for new users I would recommend the full
version of Photoshop so that all the time-consuming
work done on an image can stay in 16-bit mode for
later use.

If Photoshop Elements did, in fact, incorporate
support for 16-bit adjustment layers, then missing
only "Curves" and a few other functions sometimes
helpful to photographers and photo restorers may be
acceptable.

Howard


--- Bob Frost <bob@...> wrote:

> Paul & Steve,
> 
> Photoshop Elements 3 is now available, with a lot
> more stuff from CS 
> incorporated into it. For example it now has Camera
> Raw conversions, the 
> Highlight/Shadow sliders, Healing brush, 16bit on
> most items, etc. You can 
> upgrade from 2, so if you get a freebie copy of 2,
> it will just cost you the 
> upgrade price. Well worth it, as it has most of what
> normal photographers 
> want. No CMYK, so not suitable for pro press work.
> 
> Bob Frost.
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Paul Roark" <paul.roark@...>
> 
> 
> 
> While Photoshop is the king of image editors, other
> alternatives might be
> Photoshop Elements or Picture Windows.  I noticed
> Elements 2 ships with
> 1280s.  So, I suspect a number of people on the list
> have them sitting
> around un-opened.  What it lacks is curves, but it
> does take layers.
> Picture Windows has curves but lacks layers.  It's a
> $50 download from
> Digital Light and Color for the 8 bit version.\
> 
> I thought PS 7 was a dog.  I use CS or PS 6. 
> However, all of these are
> upgrades and won't load without a pre-existing full
> PS.  Between that and
> licensing problems, it may be hard to find a full
> PS7 at a great price.
> 
> 



		
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The support of 16-bit mode in Elements 3 is severely limited.  You 
cannot have multiple 16-bit layers of any type.  Nor can you convert 
an 8-bit image to 16-bits.  You cannot use the selection brush either 
(a sort of quick mask mode substitute).  Pathetic, really.  The RAW 
converter is also limited in that it does not have the very useful 
options to correct chromatic aberration and vignetting.  Good for 
ordinary photographers?  I think not.

John

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Howard Averbach 
<haverbach@y...> wrote:

> Bob, please check information on PS Elements 3 as it
> applies to 16-bit editing.
> 
> As a long time user of Photoshop (the full version), I
> believe the BEST and MOST IMPORTANT improvement of
> Photoshop CS over earlier versions is the availability
> of full 16-bit editing of Levels, Curves,
> Hue/Saturation, Color Balance, etc. adjustment layers.
>  As a photo restorer, don't I wish all the former
> images I've restored through Photoshop 5, 6 and 7 were
> still in 16-bit mode!
> 
> I've never used PS Elements; however, I read that it
> is limited to 8-bit editing of adjustment layers.  If
> so, even for new users I would recommend the full
> version of Photoshop so that all the time-consuming
> work done on an image can stay in 16-bit mode for
> later use.
> 
> If Photoshop Elements did, in fact, incorporate
> support for 16-bit adjustment layers, then missing
> only "Curves" and a few other functions sometimes
> helpful to photographers and photo restorers may be
> acceptable.
> 
> Howard
> 
> 
> --- Bob Frost <bob@f...> wrote:
> 
> > Paul & Steve,
> > 
> > Photoshop Elements 3 is now available, with a lot
> > more stuff from CS 
> > incorporated into it. For example it now has Camera
> > Raw conversions, the 
> > Highlight/Shadow sliders, Healing brush, 16bit on
> > most items, etc. You can 
> > upgrade from 2, so if you get a freebie copy of 2,
> > it will just cost you the 
> > upgrade price. Well worth it, as it has most of what
> > normal photographers 
> > want. No CMYK, so not suitable for pro press work.
> > 
> > Bob Frost.
> > 
> > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > From: "Paul Roark" <paul.roark@v...>
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > While Photoshop is the king of image editors, other
> > alternatives might be
> > Photoshop Elements or Picture Windows.  I noticed
> > Elements 2 ships with
> > 1280s.  So, I suspect a number of people on the list
> > have them sitting
> > around un-opened.  What it lacks is curves, but it
> > does take layers.
> > Picture Windows has curves but lacks layers.  It's a
> > $50 download from
> > Digital Light and Color for the 8 bit version.\
> > 
> > I thought PS 7 was a dog.  I use CS or PS 6. 
> > However, all of these are
> > upgrades and won't load without a pre-existing full
> > PS.  Between that and
> > licensing problems, it may be hard to find a full
> > PS7 at a great price.
> > 
> > 
> 
> 
> 
> 		
> __________________________________ 
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John,

1 Since the experts can't yet agree whether there is any benefit to be seen 
on the final print of using 16bit files, 'ordinary' photograpers are 
unlikely to notice the difference between working in 8 bit and 16bit.

2    AFAIK there is no advantage in converting 8bit files to 16bit.

3    I doubt that most 'ordinary' photographers use these corrections.

4    Good for 'ordinary' photographers - yes. Good for you - no.

5    For one-tenth of the price of Photoshop CS, it is very good value for 
money IMHO. People who find they must have the extras of CS can upgrade at a 
favourable rate later.

Bob Frost.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "John Houghton" <j.houghton@...>




The support of 16-bit mode in Elements 3 is severely limited.  You
cannot have multiple 16-bit layers of any type.  Nor can you convert
an 8-bit image to 16-bits.  You cannot use the selection brush either
(a sort of quick mask mode substitute).  Pathetic, really.  The RAW
converter is also limited in that it does not have the very useful
options to correct chromatic aberration and vignetting.  Good for
ordinary photographers?  I think not.

For what it's worth:  unlike photographers, whose
camera output is likely "pretty good" to begin with
and thus needing mere tweeking and croping, photo
restorers like myself typically start with horrible to
fair originals that need MASSIVE "Levels" adjustments,
lots of "Cloning", and often extensive color and other
improvements.

In situations like this, ANYONE can see the
significant improvement -- to the histogram as well as
to the final output -- using 16-bit files as opposed
to 8-bit mode.

Of course, once the adjustment layers are flattened
and then the whole sharpened, converting to 8-bit mode
makes no difference.

Howard


--- Bob Frost <bob@...> wrote:

> John,
> 
> 1 Since the experts can't yet agree whether there is
> any benefit to be seen 
> on the final print of using 16bit files, 'ordinary'
> photograpers are 
> unlikely to notice the difference between working in
> 8 bit and 16bit.
> 
> 2    AFAIK there is no advantage in converting 8bit
> files to 16bit.
> 
> 3    I doubt that most 'ordinary' photographers use
> these corrections.
> 
> 4    Good for 'ordinary' photographers - yes. Good
> for you - no.
> 
> 5    For one-tenth of the price of Photoshop CS, it
> is very good value for 
> money IMHO. People who find they must have the
> extras of CS can upgrade at a 
> favourable rate later.
> 
> Bob Frost.
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "John Houghton" <j.houghton@...>
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The support of 16-bit mode in Elements 3 is severely
> limited.  You
> cannot have multiple 16-bit layers of any type.  Nor
> can you convert
> an 8-bit image to 16-bits.  You cannot use the
> selection brush either
> (a sort of quick mask mode substitute).  Pathetic,
> really.  The RAW
> converter is also limited in that it does not have
> the very useful
> options to correct chromatic aberration and
> vignetting.  Good for
> ordinary photographers?  I think not.
> 
> 



		
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