Digital BW, The Print

Guys,

Pardon my ignorance.  As I had replied to my own postings regarding this matter, I essentially got proverbially B-slapped by my buddy who is a much more educated photographer than I.  He essentially gave me the same reaction that Claude did.  It's not a matter of medium format or film for that matter, it's a matter of skill and using the right equipment for the job.  He said the same thing Claude did about using a 50mm f/1.8 lens with my Digital Rebel.  He also recommended that I learn the zone system, and once I do, the majority of my questions will have the answers reveal themselves.  Yes, the image on Annie Lennox's site is a good one, but as you all have given me the impression as well as my friend that this is not something unobtainable with the equipment that I have now.  I guess I just need to shoot, shoot, and shoot some more.

Thanks again for all of your help,

Laurence

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Steven Karafyllakis<mailto:steve@...> 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com<mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> 
  Sent: Sunday, January 02, 2005 9:22 AM
  Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Annie Lennox




  Indeed! God spare from celebrity dilettantes!

  Steve Karafyllakis


  > Annie Lennox is a rank amateur photographer with money and fame as 
  a singer. 
  > I don't get the ooh and ah over an image that any good portrait 
  photographer 
  > can produce 1,000 times a day without a blink.
  > 
  > Claude
  > 
  > 
  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





  Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as they are often being updated.

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  BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
   
  Yahoo! Groups Links



   





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Am I missing something here or are the photos you guys have been
looking at OF this woman Annie Lennox not created by her???? I went to
this site when this started and there were only about a half dozen
photo's in the gallery all of the smae woman which I took to be this
Annie Lennox. Was I wrong? 

And if I'm not then shouldn't you all be talking about the
photogrrapher who did take the photos?

I might be all wrong so I thought I would ask.

Mark W.

Never seen a pc. of equipment yet that could make a better photographer.








--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Laurence
Schwarz" <laurenceschwarz@m...> wrote:
> Guys,
> 
> Pardon my ignorance.  As I had replied to my own postings regarding
this matter, I essentially got proverbially B-slapped by my buddy who
is a much more educated photographer than I.  He essentially gave me
the same reaction that Claude did.  It's not a matter of medium format
or film for that matter, it's a matter of skill and using the right
equipment for the job.  He said the same thing Claude did about using
a 50mm f/1.8 lens with my Digital Rebel.  He also recommended that I
learn the zone system, and once I do, the majority of my questions
will have the answers reveal themselves.  Yes, the image on Annie
Lennox's site is a good one, but as you all have given me the
impression as well as my friend that this is not something
unobtainable with the equipment that I have now.  I guess I just need
to shoot, shoot, and shoot some more.
> 
> Thanks again for all of your help,
> 
> Laurence
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
>   From: Steven Karafyllakis<mailto:steve@s...> 
>   To:
DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com<mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>

>   Sent: Sunday, January 02, 2005 9:22 AM
>   Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Annie Lennox
> 
> 
> 
> 
>   Indeed! God spare from celebrity dilettantes!
> 
>   Steve Karafyllakis
> 
> 
>   > Annie Lennox is a rank amateur photographer with money and fame as 
>   a singer. 
>   > I don't get the ooh and ah over an image that any good portrait 
>   photographer 
>   > can produce 1,000 times a day without a blink.
>   > 
>   > Claude
>   > 
>   > 
>   > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>   Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other
resources as they are often being updated.
> 
>  
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint>
> 
>   If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you
wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by
visiting this same page.
> 
>   Please follow these basic guidelines:
>   - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages
to keep them short.
>   - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from
the membership without notice.
>   - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of
digital B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may
be removed from the membership.
>   - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules
and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group
Owner and Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the
Files section:
>  
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/>
> 
>   BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE
PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER"
AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE
LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL,
CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO,
DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE
LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES),
RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW,
THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF
YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD
PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER
MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.

>    
>   Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
>    
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I believe those photos of Annie were taken by other photographers. 
Not taken of her by herself.

At least that's the impression I got from reading the introduction .

And, I think that B&W image of her is mediocore, at best.

Scott



-- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "awahlster" 
<awahlster@a...> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Am I missing something here or are the photos you guys have been
> looking at OF this woman Annie Lennox not created by her???? I went 
to
> this site when this started and there were only about a half dozen
> photo's in the gallery all of the smae woman which I took to be this
> Annie Lennox. Was I wrong? 
> 
> And if I'm not then shouldn't you all be talking about the
> photogrrapher who did take the photos?
> 
> I might be all wrong so I thought I would ask.
> 
> Mark W.
> 
> Never seen a pc. of equipment yet that could make a better 
photographer.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Laurence
> Schwarz" <laurenceschwarz@m...> wrote:
> > Guys,
> > 
> > Pardon my ignorance.  As I had replied to my own postings 
regarding
> this matter, I essentially got proverbially B-slapped by my buddy 
who
> is a much more educated photographer than I.  He essentially gave me
> the same reaction that Claude did.  It's not a matter of medium 
format
> or film for that matter, it's a matter of skill and using the right
> equipment for the job.  He said the same thing Claude did about 
using
> a 50mm f/1.8 lens with my Digital Rebel.  He also recommended that I
> learn the zone system, and once I do, the majority of my questions
> will have the answers reveal themselves.  Yes, the image on Annie
> Lennox's site is a good one, but as you all have given me the
> impression as well as my friend that this is not something
> unobtainable with the equipment that I have now.  I guess I just 
need
> to shoot, shoot, and shoot some more.
> > 
> > Thanks again for all of your help,
> > 
> > Laurence
> >   ----- Original Message ----- 
> >   From: Steven Karafyllakis<mailto:steve@s...> 
> >   To:
> 
DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com<mailto:DigitalBlackandWhi
teThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> 
> >   Sent: Sunday, January 02, 2005 9:22 AM
> >   Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Annie Lennox
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >   Indeed! God spare from celebrity dilettantes!
> > 
> >   Steve Karafyllakis
> > 
> > 
> >   > Annie Lennox is a rank amateur photographer with money and 
fame as 
> >   a singer. 
> >   > I don't get the ooh and ah over an image that any good 
portrait 
> >   photographer 
> >   > can produce 1,000 times a day without a blink.
> >   > 
> >   > Claude
> >   > 
> >   > 
> >   > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >   Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other
> resources as they are often being updated.
> > 
> >  
> 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint<http://grou
ps.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint>
> > 
> >   If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you
> wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by
> visiting this same page.
> > 
> >   Please follow these basic guidelines:
> >   - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier 
messages
> to keep them short.
> >   - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
> flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed 
from
> the membership without notice.
> >   - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of
> digital B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts 
may
> be removed from the membership.
> >   - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules
> and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the 
group
> Owner and Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the
> Files section:
> >  
> 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/<http
://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/>
> > 
> >   BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, 
THE
> PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT 
THE "OWNER"
> AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE
> LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL,
> CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO,
> DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE
> LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE 
PRINT

> YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES),
> RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW,
> THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF
> YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD
> PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER
> MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> >    
> >   Yahoo! Groups Links
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >    
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>...He also recommended that I learn the zone system, and once I do, the
>majority of my questions will have the answers reveal themselves.  ...

Well ...

I have the greatest respect for A. Adams and his work, and I found his books
to be the ones that I related to most when I was learning and doing darkroom
work.  It may be that I'm just so far down that learning curve that I take
all his teachings for granted, but I must say I get tired of hearing about
the "zone system."  It was mostly developed for a time before there was even
graded printing paper.  As such, the negative had to be fit to the few
printing paper contrasts that were available.  

We are so far beyond that now, that I question spending much time on the
"zone system," per se.  On the other hand, AA's philosophy and general
approach to B&W to the extent it does not relate specifically to the old
processes is not at all obsolete. 

In terms of the technology, however, I think it might be more useful to
learn straight digital now.  The place to start, for me, is to capture as
much information in the original shot as possible.  If one is shooting
digital, learning to use the histogram may be the closest analogy to the
zone system.  (As a film shooter, I've always graphed out my characteristic
curves and used a spot meter to do this.)

As long as one has the maximum information in the file, then having a
printing system that can print well (like the C86 with EZ inks) and having a
monitor that matches the print (Photoshop preview/soft proof -- not an
expensive color calibration system) ought to allow one to learn by
experimenting.

At any rate, my point was -- learn the histogram, not the "zone system."

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Well, from what I understood by reading the introduction on the website, these are self portraits that were made with the assistance of one of her friends.  As far as the image being mediocre; you're entitled to your own opinion, I happen to disagree.

-Laurence

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: scott_now_coming<mailto:scott_now_coming@...> 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com<mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> 
  Sent: Sunday, January 02, 2005 5:34 PM
  Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Annie Lennox





  I believe those photos of Annie were taken by other photographers. 
  Not taken of her by herself.

  At least that's the impression I got from reading the introduction .

  And, I think that B&W image of her is mediocore, at best.

  Scott



  -- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com<mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>, "awahlster" 
  <awahlster@a<mailto:awahlster@a>...> wrote:
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > Am I missing something here or are the photos you guys have been
  > looking at OF this woman Annie Lennox not created by her???? I went 
  to
  > this site when this started and there were only about a half dozen
  > photo's in the gallery all of the smae woman which I took to be this
  > Annie Lennox. Was I wrong? 
  > 
  > And if I'm not then shouldn't you all be talking about the
  > photogrrapher who did take the photos?
  > 
  > I might be all wrong so I thought I would ask.
  > 
  > Mark W.
  > 
  > Never seen a pc. of equipment yet that could make a better 
  photographer.
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com<mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>, "Laurence
  > Schwarz" <laurenceschwarz@m<mailto:laurenceschwarz@m>...> wrote:
  > > Guys,
  > > 
  > > Pardon my ignorance.  As I had replied to my own postings 
  regarding
  > this matter, I essentially got proverbially B-slapped by my buddy 
  who
  > is a much more educated photographer than I.  He essentially gave me
  > the same reaction that Claude did.  It's not a matter of medium 
  format
  > or film for that matter, it's a matter of skill and using the right
  > equipment for the job.  He said the same thing Claude did about 
  using
  > a 50mm f/1.8 lens with my Digital Rebel.  He also recommended that I
  > learn the zone system, and once I do, the majority of my questions
  > will have the answers reveal themselves.  Yes, the image on Annie
  > Lennox's site is a good one, but as you all have given me the
  > impression as well as my friend that this is not something
  > unobtainable with the equipment that I have now.  I guess I just 
  need
  > to shoot, shoot, and shoot some more.
  > > 
  > > Thanks again for all of your help,
  > > 
  > > Laurence
  > >   ----- Original Message ----- 
  > >   From: Steven Karafyllakis<mailto:steve@s<mailto:steve@s>...> 
  > >   To:
  > 
  DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com<mailto:DigitalBlackandWhi<mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com<mailto:DigitalBlackandWhi>
  teThePrint@yahoogroups.com<mailto:teThePrint@yahoogroups.com>>
  > 
  > >   Sent: Sunday, January 02, 2005 9:22 AM
  > >   Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Annie Lennox
  > > 
  > > 
  > > 
  > > 
  > >   Indeed! God spare from celebrity dilettantes!
  > > 
  > >   Steve Karafyllakis
  > > 
  > > 
  > >   > Annie Lennox is a rank amateur photographer with money and 
  fame as 
  > >   a singer. 
  > >   > I don't get the ooh and ah over an image that any good 
  portrait 
  > >   photographer 
  > >   > can produce 1,000 times a day without a blink.
  > >   > 
  > >   > Claude
  > >   > 
  > >   > 
  > >   > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
  > > 
  > > 
  > > 
  > > 
  > > 
  > >   Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other
  > resources as they are often being updated.
  > > 
  > >  
  > 
  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint<http://grou<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint<http://grou>
  ps.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint>
  > > 
  > >   If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you
  > wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by
  > visiting this same page.
  > > 
  > >   Please follow these basic guidelines:
  > >   - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier 
  messages
  > to keep them short.
  > >   - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
  > flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed 
  from
  > the membership without notice.
  > >   - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of
  > digital B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts 
  may
  > be removed from the membership.
  > >   - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules
  > and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the 
  group
  > Owner and Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the
  > Files section:
  > >  
  > 
  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/<http<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/<http>
  ://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/>
  > > 
  > >   BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, 
  THE
  > PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT 
  THE "OWNER"
  > AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE
  > LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL,
  > CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO,
  > DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE
  > LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE 
  PRINT
  > YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES),
  > RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW,
  > THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF
  > YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD
  > PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER
  > MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
  > >    
  > >   Yahoo! Groups Links
  > > 
  > > 
  > > 
  > >    
  > > 
  > > 
  > > 
  > > 
  > > 
  > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





  Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as they are often being updated.

  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint>

  If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page.

  Please follow these basic guidelines:
  - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
  - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the membership without notice.
  - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from the membership.
  - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files section:
  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/>

  BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
   
  Yahoo! Groups Links



   





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> Am I missing something here or are the photos you guys have been
> looking at OF this woman Annie Lennox not created by her???? I went 
to
> this site when this started and there were only about a half dozen
> photo's in the gallery all of the smae woman which I took to be this
> Annie Lennox. Was I wrong? 
>

Hey Mark - you're either showing your age or your ignorance - you 
might not like her photos, but she's one hell of a singer!

As for her photos - all I can say is she's a hell of a lot better 
photogorapher than Bryan Adams and his undergraduate art student 
stuff. Or Astronaut and photographer wannabe Roberta Bondar who 
manage to persuade the Canadian taxpayer to fork out at least half a 
million dollars so she could go on a cross country photo jaunt and 
come back with some (average) photo club style Elliot Porter/Jack 
Dykinga copies....

Point well taken Paul.  So where should a guy like me (someone new to
digital b&w) go to learn about histograms in relation to our craft?
 
Josh

-----Original Message-----
From: Paul Roark [mailto:paul.roark@...] 
Sent: Sunday, January 02, 2005 5:43 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] Zone system (was Annie Lennox)
 


>...He also recommended that I learn the zone system, and once I do, the
>majority of my questions will have the answers reveal themselves.  ...

Well ...

I have the greatest respect for A. Adams and his work, and I found his
books
to be the ones that I related to most when I was learning and doing
darkroom
work.  It may be that I'm just so far down that learning curve that I
take
all his teachings for granted, but I must say I get tired of hearing
about
the "zone system."  It was mostly developed for a time before there was
even
graded printing paper.  As such, the negative had to be fit to the few
printing paper contrasts that were available.  

We are so far beyond that now, that I question spending much time on the
"zone system," per se.  On the other hand, AA's philosophy and general
approach to B&W to the extent it does not relate specifically to the old
processes is not at all obsolete. 

In terms of the technology, however, I think it might be more useful to
learn straight digital now.  The place to start, for me, is to capture
as
much information in the original shot as possible.  If one is shooting
digital, learning to use the histogram may be the closest analogy to the
zone system.  (As a film shooter, I've always graphed out my
characteristic
curves and used a spot meter to do this.)

As long as one has the maximum information in the file, then having a
printing system that can print well (like the C86 with EZ inks) and
having a
monitor that matches the print (Photoshop preview/soft proof -- not an
expensive color calibration system) ought to allow one to learn by
experimenting.

At any rate, my point was -- learn the histogram, not the "zone system."

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 






Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources
as they are often being updated.

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Google is a good place to start. You might also try:

  http://www.luminous-landscape.com/tutorials/understanding-
series/understanding-histograms.shtml


Regards,
Peter.


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Josh Randall" 
<joshrandall@j...> wrote:
> Point well taken Paul.  So where should a guy like me (someone new 
to
> digital b&w) go to learn about histograms in relation to our craft?
>  
> Josh
>  
]

Good morning Paul,

After reading your message below, I still think you are using the 
Zone System basically; for how is the histogram produced but by 
exposure. Proper exposure is the exposure that produces the desired 
tones (histogram values). Every time you examine the histogram you 
are seeing the result of exposure. Granted you can make changes in 
the histogram, but an initial xposure must be made that will contain 
the values for you to manipulate in Photoshop or another program. 

Another feature of learning the basics of the Zone System is that you 
can previsualize the final print, and having done that; utilize any 
tool at your disposal to produce that print. All of us must develop 
some kind of discipline to enable us to relate to the scene before us 
to produce the final print. One method I use is to initially utilize 
an incident meter then using a spot meter observe where each value 
falls in the scene. Calculating the exposure is simply placing the 
most crucial Zone (tone) and seeing where the others fall. Photoshop 
will enable us to either expand development (setting white point) or 
give minus development (set black point) and adjust the other values 
to suit ourselves. Then we can use the wonderful tools you have 
provided for us the the form of either curves or ink mixtures. I 
think most of us use MIS inks.


Your friend in Photography,

Johnny




--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" 
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> 
> 
> >...He also recommended that I learn the zone system, and once I 
do, the
> >majority of my questions will have the answers reveal 
themselves.  ...
> 
> Well ...
> 
> I have the greatest respect for A. Adams and his work, and I found 
his books
> to be the ones that I related to most when I was learning and doing 
darkroom
> work.  It may be that I'm just so far down that learning curve that 
I take
> all his teachings for granted, but I must say I get tired of 
hearing about
> the "zone system."  It was mostly developed for a time before there 
was even
> graded printing paper.  As such, the negative had to be fit to the 
few
> printing paper contrasts that were available.  
> 
> We are so far beyond that now, that I question spending much time 
on the
> "zone system," per se.  On the other hand, AA's philosophy and 
general
> approach to B&W to the extent it does not relate specifically to 
the old
> processes is not at all obsolete. 
> 
> In terms of the technology, however, I think it might be more 
useful to
> learn straight digital now.  The place to start, for me, is to 
capture as
> much information in the original shot as possible.  If one is 
shooting
> digital, learning to use the histogram may be the closest analogy 
to the
> zone system.  (As a film shooter, I've always graphed out my 
characteristic
> curves and used a spot meter to do this.)
> 
> As long as one has the maximum information in the file, then having 
a
> printing system that can print well (like the C86 with EZ inks) and 
having a
> monitor that matches the print (Photoshop preview/soft proof -- not 
an
> expensive color calibration system) ought to allow one to learn by
> experimenting.
> 
> At any rate, my point was -- learn the histogram, not the "zone 
system."

> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com

I get tired of hearing about
> the "zone system."  It was mostly developed for a time before there
was even
> graded printing paper.  As such, the negative had to be fit to the few
> printing paper contrasts that were available.   

Paul, I know your comments about Zone System are well-intended, but
they are not fully correct and, more importantly, miss what I think is
its point.

You teach good methods that are temporarily appropriate for current
digital technology, but that will become obsolete within a couple of
years, as the technology gets more intuitive...unlike the heart of the
Zone System.

MOST of the Zone System's development occurred DESPITE plenty of
readily available paper grades (6 from Agfa) and infinite variability
from the excellent Dupont Varigam. 

Those who were influenced directly by Ansel and Minor, and Minor's
many students, were not "limited" by all those paper grades, but
instead determined to use only one or two of them so as to avoid the
crudeness of product orientation and last minute  "saveing" of dubious
negatives by juggling paper grades. 

Most of the fundamentals of the Zone System were worked out not by
Ansel (though he gets popular credit), but in partnership with Minor
White, during their joint instruction at San Francisco Art Institute
one Summer. Ansel's initial version of the system predated that Summer
(and yes, did have to do with limited paper grades), but it wasn't the
fully conceived, teachable system previously, and it continued to be
refined for two more decades for the purposes of roll film.

Many of "us" developed our skills FOR a favorite grade or two, moving
zones around to our hearts content on an internalized (uncharted) and
disciplined (like jazz) Zone System basis...that was the most basic
goal of the Zone System, as taught by Minor. Ansel was a classical
pianist, not a jazzer. 

Connecting the Zone System too firmly to charts and quantification
(which were part, but not the heart) anchors it too firmly on Ansel's
analytic side of the brain, removes it from Minor's artistic side. 

Minor was hip, meditative, a Zen Buddhist and Gurdjieff disciple,
while Ansel thought like an engineer, was commercial (a good thing)...
there was a difference at that level. 

I believe both would be excited about digital photography (as Ansel
was about Polaroid, his commercial sponsor), but I suspect Minor might
have stayed with film longer. 

disclaimer: A half-dozen of Minor's students were my friends in San
Francisco in the Sixties, whereas Ansel was just my customer.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" <paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> 
> 
> >...He also recommended that I learn the zone system, and once I do, the
> >majority of my questions will have the answers reveal themselves.  ...
> 
> Well ...
> 
> I have the greatest respect for A. Adams and his work, and I found his books
> to be the ones that I related to most when I was learning and doing darkroom
> work.  It may be that I'm just so far down that learning curve that I take
> all his teachings for granted, but I must say I get tired of hearing about
> the "zone system." 

[clip]
 
> At any rate, my point was -- learn the histogram, not the "zone system."

Especially when you put your 21 step data in the "LINEARIZE=" line and built your QTR curve accordingly. What would Ansel have done with 21 zones? ;) ;)

> 
> Especially when you put your 21 step data in the "LINEARIZE=" line 
and built your QTR curve accordingly. What would Ansel have done with 
21 zones? ;) ;)

Any possibility you could expand on this please? I would like to 
discover more information about linearizing and creating paper curves 
with QTR.

Thanks,

Don Bryant

>> At any rate, my point was -- learn the histogram, not the "zone system."

>Especially when you put your 21 step data in the "LINEARIZE=" 
>line and built your QTR curve accordingly. 
>What would Ansel have done with 21 zones? ;) ;)

And now IJC/OPM uses a 26-step test print.

These are the new tools and language we use.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Josh,

>... So where should a guy like me (someone new to
>digital b&w) go to learn about histograms in relation to our craft?
 
There are lots of good books on digital printing, in general.  Although I
contribute to some of these books, I, frankly, find it almost impossible to
learn software from a book.  I see them as references only.  As such, I keep
the latest Photoshop manual within reach.

I assume the alternatives to Photoshop have similar functions.  As a
practical matter, Photoshop ("PS") is defining a large part of the language
we now use.  If full PS is too expensive, I'd buy the PS Elements or Picture
Window.

I think this forum is a living, real-time book that is way ahead of the
printed versions.  On the other hand, I think the Yahoo search function is
so poor that I'm going to be exploring alternatives to this forum this year.
The ability to tap into the emerging competition between Google and
Microsoft (and others) with respect to searching data bases is going to be
something I want to take advantage of.

The way I like to learn software is play with the most important functions
and see what they do.  Just exploring the items on the drop-down menus
reached from the top PS bar gives you an overview.

What initially fascinated me the most in Photoshop was the Unsharp masking.
With the monitor at 100% magnification (double click the magnifying glass),
seeing what the various settings did amazed me.

With the histogram, the basic idea is to fully utilize the dynamic range of
the file and printing medium without clipping off the highlights or shadows.
Pull up a file, go the Image, Adjustments, Levels, and the histogram
appears.  Hold down the Alt key while sliding the end points and see the
image visually indicate what you'll be clipping off.  

If you want to fully utilize the dynamic range of the medium (and I do and
so did A. Adams), prints should have some pure black (0 on the 0-255, 8-bit
digital scale, but also referred to as 100% in terms of the ink load) and
very little pure paper white (255 on the 8-bit scale, and 0% ink).

You can also slide the middle point.  This is like changing the gamma.  You
can see the effects on the monitor.  I prefer to use the curves function for
these types of adjustments, however.

At any rate, learn by diving in.  If you have a cheap but good printer like
the C86, inks (MIS EZ), and papers (Costco glossy and Epson Enhanced Matte),
it won't cost much to just start printing.

Enjoy.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Djon" 
> while Ansel thought like an engineer, was commercial (a good thing)...

The high priest of the pre-visualization doctrine acted on impulse
just like everyone else. He used to type his letters himself and could
not even plan on a carriage-return before his lines ran off the paper!

The Zone system was designed for sheet film in larger cameras with
less flare. MF and 35mm prints required dodging and burning even when
the Zone system was adapted. And I'm sure AA used these techniques
with success.

Digital requires a different set of tools: histograms and stepwedges
and for the digital camera user, exposure to the right.

Like the man said, "Use it if you got it, but it ain't mandatory"!

André Moreau

Johnny,

>... I still think you are using the Zone System basically; ...

Yes, you and the others are correct.  I just prefer language that is more
directly related to current technology.  Part of my post was intentionally
non-PC (for traditional B&W types) and a reaction to what I think is an
excessive deification of certain past masters in our niche.  But, of course,
I have virtually every book AA wrote.  Even though I never met the man, I
consider him one of my primary mentors.

>for how is the histogram produced but by exposure. Proper exposure 
>is the exposure that produces the desired tones (histogram values).
>...an initial exposure must be made that will contain 
>the values for you to manipulate in Photoshop or another program.

Exactly.  I call this my "information capture" stage.  One must capture
enough of it -- which includes the highlights to shadows.  I'm a fan of the
1 degree spot meter, but the modern cameras virtually do this automatically,
and if people have good digital cameras (I don't), I think they can examine
the histograms right on the spot to be sure they have not clipped the ends
of the range.

>Another feature of learning the basics of the Zone System is that you 
>can previsualize the final print,

This is where I think the Zone System never helped me much.  It reminds me
of some of the composition talks I give and the relevance of the "rules of
composition."  I love Weston's comments on them: "To consult the rules of
composition before making a picture is a little like consulting the law of
gravitation before going for a walk."


>...All of us must develop 
>some kind of discipline to enable us to relate to the scene before us 
>to produce the final print.

Yes, I agree.  It is a very personal and individual thing.  If the ZS helps
one, that's great.  I find a necklace with orange and polarizing filters
hanging on to be my most valuable tool.  I used to also have small framing
masks on that necklace to block out the context that will not be seen in the
final photo.  But if the camera viewfinder is handy, that works, and that
plus fingers is what I now use to do an initial "framing" of the scene.

Some think the Zone System is also an aid to communication.  It helps us
talk about the different levels of brightness in the scene or print.  Here,
however, we already have conflicting language -- for example, the 100%
(black) to 0% (white) ink load versus the 8-bit 0 (black) to 255 (white)
scale.  The "Zones" are yet another system, and one that is less directly
related to the current technology.  I see it as a potential source of
confusion for new B&W printers.

True, next week a new technology may come along and make what we are doing
this week obsolete, but I think I'll worry about that next week.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Josh Randall" 
<joshrandall@j...> wrote:
> Point well taken Paul.  So where should a guy like me (someone new 
to
> digital b&w) go to learn about histograms in relation to our craft?
>  
> Josh


Here's a great new site, created by Thomas Zuber, for learning PS 
basics like histograms and curves, relative to photography:
 
http://www.zuberphotographics.com/page_PSTopics.htm


Deeper in the site, Zuber describes his digital version of the zone 
system (my description) called the Tone Management System: 
http://www.zuberphotographics.com/page_TMSIntro.htm.

His explaination is very near to how A.Adams might the zone system:

"To give me a systematic, predictive approach to creating B&W images 
that allowed the maximum control over tone in order to create the 
image I visualized."


It's a very interesting workflow process and a good read.


Terry
http://wwwtlphoto.net

The best histograms are the ones that show, seperately, R,G,and B.

On a histogram that just shows all three together, it's possible to 
have a good looking histogram, but actually have one 
channel "clipped".

Unfortunatly, not many cameras have that type of histogram.
My Fuji S1 has it, but I don't use that camera anymore.

Scott

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" 
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> Johnny,
> 
> >... I still think you are using the Zone System basically; ...
> 
> Yes, you and the others are correct.  I just prefer language that 
is more
> directly related to current technology.  Part of my post was 
intentionally
> non-PC (for traditional B&W types) and a reaction to what I think 
is an
> excessive deification of certain past masters in our niche.  But, 
of course,
> I have virtually every book AA wrote.  Even though I never met the 
man, I
> consider him one of my primary mentors.
> 
> >for how is the histogram produced but by exposure. Proper exposure 
> >is the exposure that produces the desired tones (histogram values).
> >...an initial exposure must be made that will contain 
> >the values for you to manipulate in Photoshop or another program.
> 
> Exactly.  I call this my "information capture" stage.  One must 
capture
> enough of it -- which includes the highlights to shadows.  I'm a 
fan of the
> 1 degree spot meter, but the modern cameras virtually do this 
automatically,
> and if people have good digital cameras (I don't), I think they can 
examine
> the histograms right on the spot to be sure they have not clipped 
the ends
> of the range.
> 
> >Another feature of learning the basics of the Zone System is that 
you 
> >can previsualize the final print,
> 
> This is where I think the Zone System never helped me much.  It 
reminds me
> of some of the composition talks I give and the relevance of 
the "rules of
> composition."  I love Weston's comments on them: "To consult the 
rules of
> composition before making a picture is a little like consulting the 
law of
> gravitation before going for a walk."
> 
> 
> >...All of us must develop 
> >some kind of discipline to enable us to relate to the scene before 
us 
> >to produce the final print.
> 
> Yes, I agree.  It is a very personal and individual thing.  If the 
ZS helps
> one, that's great.  I find a necklace with orange and polarizing 
filters
> hanging on to be my most valuable tool.  I used to also have small 
framing
> masks on that necklace to block out the context that will not be 
seen in the
> final photo.  But if the camera viewfinder is handy, that works, 
and that
> plus fingers is what I now use to do an initial "framing" of the 
scene.
> 
> Some think the Zone System is also an aid to communication.  It 
helps us
> talk about the different levels of brightness in the scene or 
print.  Here,
> however, we already have conflicting language -- for example, the 
100%
> (black) to 0% (white) ink load versus the 8-bit 0 (black) to 255 
(white)
> scale.  The "Zones" are yet another system, and one that is less 
directly
> related to the current technology.  I see it as a potential source 
of
> confusion for new B&W printers.
> 
> True, next week a new technology may come along and make what we 
are doing

> this week obsolete, but I think I'll worry about that next week.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com

Paul, many good comments. Thanks for your perspectives.

I knew AA very slightly ... I considered him a very successful
commercial photographer. 

Richard Avedon and Robert Capa and many others were AA's equals, and
interestingly some spent zero time in the darkroom. They found ways of
working and then worked. Like Ansel, many had assistants who did much
of the printing. Suggesting, I suppose, that the printmaking aspect of
this work may be different from the art, and even from photography itself.

I'm certain Ansel would have been a digital early adopter, just as he
was with Polaroid...he understood scanning and lithography in
considerable technical depth before he passed.   

John Kelly


> 
> >... I still think you are using the Zone System basically; ...
> 
> Yes, you and the others are correct.  I just prefer language that is
more
> directly related to current technology.

May I also humbly suggest my web site, specifically 

http://www.zuberphotographics.com/page_PSHistogram.htm

Thomas


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Peter" 
<spamme2001@m...> wrote:
> 
> Google is a good place to start. You might also try:
> 
>   http://www.luminous-landscape.com/tutorials/understanding-
> series/understanding-histograms.shtml
> 
> 
> Regards,
> Peter.
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Josh Randall" 
> <joshrandall@j...> wrote:
> > Point well taken Paul.  So where should a guy like me (someone 
new 
> to
> > digital b&w) go to learn about histograms in relation to our 
craft?

> >  
> > Josh
> >  
> ]

That is indeed an interesting site.  There is a "zone system" curve for
download.  The diagonal is divided into zones 0 through 10, and as you mouse
over the image the particular zone is highlighted on the diagonal.  I'm more
of a visual person and thought it was very helpful in seeing the range with
which to work.  

Regards,

  --Ken Carney
    www.kencarney.com 

> Here's a great new site, created by Thomas Zuber, for 
> learning PS basics like histograms and curves, relative to 
> photography:
>  
> http://www.zuberphotographics.com/page_PSTopics.htm

Thanks Terry!  That was wonderful reading and a great insight into the
Tone Management System.

-----Original Message-----
From: teelions@... [mailto:teelions@...] 
Sent: Monday, January 03, 2005 9:52 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Zone system (was Annie Lennox)
 

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Josh Randall" 
<joshrandall@j...> wrote:
> Point well taken Paul.  So where should a guy like me (someone new 
to
> digital b&w) go to learn about histograms in relation to our craft?
>  
> Josh


Here's a great new site, created by Thomas Zuber, for learning PS 
basics like histograms and curves, relative to photography:

http://www.zuberphotographics.com/page_PSTopics.htm


Deeper in the site, Zuber describes his digital version of the zone 
system (my description) called the Tone Management System: 
http://www.zuberphotographics.com/page_TMSIntro.htm.

His explaination is very near to how A.Adams might the zone system:

"To give me a systematic, predictive approach to creating B&W images 
that allowed the maximum control over tone in order to create the 
image I visualized."


It's a very interesting workflow process and a good read.


Terry
http://wwwtlphoto.net





Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources
as they are often being updated.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this
same page.

Please follow these basic guidelines:
- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to
keep them short.
- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
membership without notice.
- Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed
from the membership.
- By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner
and Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files
section:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/

BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND
"MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO
YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR
EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF
PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE
"OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN
ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE
OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii)
UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA;
(iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE
PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW,
THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Paul  -
 
I generally agree.  However, for those shooting film, understanding what the 'zone system' teaches is invaluable.  I have always looked at the zone system as just a way to help me quantify and understand the basic interplay of light/film/chemisty.  It was a learning aid.
 
It's true that with digital capture, the histogram is the lynchpin.  But, when you're working in an image editing program, especially for b&w, the understanding of brightness/contrast  relationships that comes with understanding what the zone system teaches, is quite useful.  Again, the 'zone system' is/was but one way to learn these things.  Too many people treated the zone system as the objective rather than tool to help reach the real objective.
 
Tom Baker



Well ...

I have the greatest respect for A. Adams and his work, and I found his books
to be the ones that I related to most when I was learning and doing darkroom
work. It may be that I'm just so far down that learning curve that I take
all his teachings for granted, but I must say I get tired of hearing about
the "zone system." It was mostly developed for a time before there was even
graded printing paper. As such, the negative had to be fit to the few
printing paper contrasts that were available. 

We are so far beyond that now, that I question spending much time on the
"zone system," per se. On the other hand, AA's philosophy and general
approach to B&W to the extent it does not relate specifically to the old
processes is not at all obsolete. 

In terms of the technology, however, I think it might be more useful to
learn straight digital now. The place to start, for me, is to capture as
much information in the original shot as possible. If one is shooting
digital, learning to use the histogram may be the closest analogy to the
zone system. (As a film shooter, I've always graphed out my characteristic
curves and used a spot meter to do this.)

As long as one has the maximum information in the file, then having a
printing system that can print well (like the C86 with EZ inks) and having a
monitor that matches the print (Photoshop preview/soft proof -- not an
expensive color calibration system) ought to allow one to learn by
experimenting.

At any rate, my point was -- learn the histogram, not the "zone system."

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 






Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as they are often being updated.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page.

Please follow these basic guidelines:
- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the membership without notice.
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hello Paul,

>I'm a fan of the 1 degree spot meter, but the modern cameras 
>virtually do this automatically, and if people have good digital 
>cameras (I don't), I think they can examine the histograms right 
>on the spot to be sure they have not clipped the ends of the range.

Exactly.  During the past year I have made the transition from film to
digital capture and have stopped using my Pentax digi spot meter.  The
histogam and EV adjustment button are the new tools.  Interestingly, I
still previsualize mentally in Zones, but the initial information
comes from the Histogram.  

In addition, since with RAW digital capture+PS we can do the
equivalent of changing the negative after it is developed, the actual
exposure is less critical than it used to be and N+/- development
concepts are obsolete.  Since any captured pixel >0 and <255 can be
moved up or down and contrast can be expanded or compressed, our only
critical decision now (if the scene's range is too wide) is how much
to clip off the top and/or bottom end.  This is the closest we come to
placing a scene's value in a zone.  

However the previsualization we learned helps in making this decision,
so I'm aware of the advantages of having been a Zonie.  The years of
Zone System thinking and darkroom work have have given me a built in
value system for responding to the info the histogram provides.  But
still, while I'm not sure what I'd teach a newbie to do, "learn the
Zone System" seems like an awfully cumbersome path to take to learn
good BW photography from scratch with the new digital stuff.  I'm
guessing that some sort of new hybrid language or "Digital Zone
System" or something will emerge over time.  School/college/workshop
teachers of Fine Art BW photography will have to come up with
something, and soon.


Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Tom,

I think the best source for understanding the relationships between
exposure, film density, and development is the old Kodak F-5 publication,
titled, "Kodak Professional Black and White Films."  I think the older one I
have (1976) is better than my "newer" one (1984), although they attempted to
merge the zone system language into the text of the later one with mixed
results, in my view.

I agree that understanding characteristic curves and how to fine tune films
is just basic stuff that film shooters should know.  On the other hand, I
use the T400CN film and have the local lab process it.  Then I scan it.  I
wouldn't have to know very much at all to get good results from that
approach, but being who I am, it's a lot less fun.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 
____________________________

-----Original Message-----
From: Tom Baker [mailto:tbaker1328@...] 
Sent: Monday, January 03, 2005 6:45 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Zone system (was Annie Lennox)


Paul  -
 
I generally agree.  However, for those shooting film, understanding what the
'zone system' teaches is invaluable.  I have always looked at the zone
system as just a way to help me quantify and understand the basic interplay
of light/film/chemisty.  It was a learning aid.
 
It's true that with digital capture, the histogram is the lynchpin.  But,
when you're working in an image editing program, especially for b&w, the
understanding of brightness/contrast  relationships that comes with
understanding what the zone system teaches, is quite useful.  Again, the
'zone system' is/was but one way to learn these things.  Too many people
treated the zone system as the objective rather than tool to help reach the
real objective.
 
Tom Baker



Well ...

I have the greatest respect for A. Adams and his work, and I found his books
to be the ones that I related to most when I was learning and doing darkroom
work. It may be that I'm just so far down that learning curve that I take
all his teachings for granted, but I must say I get tired of hearing about
the "zone system." It was mostly developed for a time before there was even
graded printing paper. As such, the negative had to be fit to the few
printing paper contrasts that were available. 

We are so far beyond that now, that I question spending much time on the
"zone system," per se. On the other hand, AA's philosophy and general
approach to B&W to the extent it does not relate specifically to the old
processes is not at all obsolete. 

In terms of the technology, however, I think it might be more useful to
learn straight digital now. The place to start, for me, is to capture as
much information in the original shot as possible. If one is shooting
digital, learning to use the histogram may be the closest analogy to the
zone system. (As a film shooter, I've always graphed out my characteristic
curves and used a spot meter to do this.)

As long as one has the maximum information in the file, then having a
printing system that can print well (like the C86 with EZ inks) and having a
monitor that matches the print (Photoshop preview/soft proof -- not an
expensive color calibration system) ought to allow one to learn by
experimenting.

At any rate, my point was -- learn the histogram, not the "zone system."

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 






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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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I think the discussion of 21 vs 26 (or even 51 steps) vs Ansel's zones is
very misleading.  Ansel et al developed a system which principally
recognised two simple things: (1) one can obtain better control over process
if we are able to define a mid grey point at the previsualisation stage and
have that be a stable factor from exposure to print and (2) deviances from
this mid can be measured in f-stops.  The second point is what defined the
number of zones he used.  There was nothing to have stopped him defining his
scale in 1/2 or 1/3 stops and having a greater number of zones.

It is the first factor which causes "issues" in this discussion.  There is a
very real loss of "visualization at exposure to print discipline" that
occurs when we abandon the first point, say by "exposing to the right" by
focusing on the histogram with a digital camera.  Yes we capture maximum
information but we delay our setting of mid grey and black and white points
until we get back to our computers - quite some time post visualization.  In
Ansel's case he had no such flexibility (except for altering the processing
chemical and paper grade).  In our case we have enormous flexibility -
enough to dramatically alter the image from the one we perceived making at
the time of shutter release.  The debate centres on whether one should
expose for post shutter release (ie computer) flexibility or for the
previsualised print.

A massive complicating factor here is the way the RIPs we use are
linearized.  QTR's linearization provides a different mid grey for each and
every paper and ink combination.  (I understand IJC/OPM has the ability for
this mid point to be stable.) In this environment, maintaining the sort of
discipline that Ansel sought is extremely difficult.

> From: Paul Roark <paul.roark@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2005 08:27:35 -0800
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Re: Paul Roark's Zone system (who's Annie Lennox?)
> 
> 
>>> At any rate, my point was -- learn the histogram, not the "zone system."
> 
>> Especially when you put your 21 step data in the "LINEARIZE="
>> line and built your QTR curve accordingly.
>> What would Ansel have done with 21 zones? ;) ;)
> 
> And now IJC/OPM uses a 26-step test print.
> 
> These are the new tools and language we use.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
>

Did Ansel really do this?  Or did he set mid grey and let the rest fall
where they may?  

(Take for example the image that is on the cover of "The Negative".)


> From: Paul Roark <paul.roark@...>

clip

> If you want to fully utilize the dynamic range of the medium (and I do and
> so did A. Adams), prints should have some pure black (0 on the 0-255, 8-bit
> digital scale, but also referred to as 100% in terms of the ink load) and
> very little pure paper white (255 on the 8-bit scale, and 0% ink).
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com

Letting them "fall where they may" is a tad over-simplified. The zones "fall 
where they may" only to the extent that light hits they negative in a pre-
determined way. But part of the technique of A.A. and the Zone System is in 
controlling how many zones will actually be recorded, and where those zones 
will be rendered on the negative AND in the print. For instance, through 
contracted development, one can cause light that may have fallen on, say, 
Zone XI during exposure to be rendered at zone VIII on the negative. Or, 
conversely, by expanding development, one may force Zone VI onto Zone IX. 
Obviously, in either case, zones adjacent to the targeted zone will "fall" 
somewhere based on how development is handled, but one must remeber that 
the negative contains a LATENT image until processed. As the photographer, 
we have control over where those zones will "fall".

Also, I think we can consider Zone V as a sort of "hinge" point, if you will: zones 
higher will be affected primarily by development, and zones lower will be 
affected primarily by exposure. I say "primarily" as there is(obviously) 
interaction between exposure and development, and zones below V will be 
affected by development.

At any rate, one may not desire to print across the full range of tones available. 
I know it is commonly stated that a good print will exhibit a Dmax black and a 
paper base white (and I could see why someone might believe that), but I 
honestly don't believe A.A. ever said or wrote that; at least I can't recall ever 
coming across that in his writings, only the writings of others. I could be wrong, 
but please direct me to chapter and verse if I am :)

Oh, BTW, allow me to introduce myself to the group: My name is Guy Staley, 
and I live in Seattle, WA. I have been lurking for a couple weeks now as I am 
FINALLY diving in to digital printing after waiting around for several years for 
the technology to mature, and become affordable. I'll honestly miss my wet 
darkroom(it's not gone yet, but I can see it's demise looming on the horizon), 
but am enthralled by the creative potential of working digitally. I have just 
purchased an Epson 4870 and PS2200 and am about to mount the large 
learning curve that lies before me. I plan on starting with the MIS UT7 inks 
using Mr. Roark's work flow. In fact, I'm waiting for UPS as I write!!!

I feel privileged to have stumbled upon such a great and knowledgable group 
of like-minded folks, and look forward to interacting with you all over the 
months to come!

Sincerely,
-Guy


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale <
stevekale@b...> wrote:
> Did Ansel really do this?  Or did he set mid grey and let the rest fall
> where they may?  
> 
> (Take for example the image that is on the cover of "The Negative".)
> 
> 
> > From: Paul Roark <paul.roark@v...>
> 
> clip
> > If you want to fully utilize the dynamic range of the medium (and I do and
> > so did A. Adams), prints should have some pure black (0 on the 0-255, 8-
bit

> > digital scale, but also referred to as 100% in terms of the ink load) and
> > very little pure paper white (255 on the 8-bit scale, and 0% ink).
> > 
> > Paul
> > www.PaulRoark.com

>Letting them "fall where they may" is a tad over-simplified. The zones
"fall
>where they may" only to the extent that light hits they negative in a pre-
>determined way

I didn't see the original message but letting them "fall where they may" is
accurate if it's being used to describe what happens to all zones except
two, the zone on which the darkest important shadow is placed by exposure
and the zone on which the brightest important highlight is placed by
development.  Those are the only two zones the photographer controls. All
others fall whereever they fall. While the photographer can predict the
density of other zones he or she can't control them in the sense of changing
them after exposure and development time have been determined.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "guy_staley" <guy_staley@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, January 10, 2005 5:58 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Zone system (was Annie Lennox)


Letting them "fall where they may" is a tad over-simplified. The zones "fall
where they may" only to the extent that light hits they negative in a pre-
determined way. But part of the technique of A.A. and the Zone System is in
controlling how many zones will actually be recorded, and where those zones
will be rendered on the negative AND in the print. For instance, through
contracted development, one can cause light that may have fallen on, say,
Zone XI during exposure to be rendered at zone VIII on the negative. Or,
conversely, by expanding development, one may force Zone VI onto Zone IX.
Obviously, in either case, zones adjacent to the targeted zone will "fall"
somewhere based on how development is handled, but one must remeber that
the negative contains a LATENT image until processed. As the photographer,
we have control over where those zones will "fall".

Also, I think we can consider Zone V as a sort of "hinge" point, if you
will: zones
higher will be affected primarily by development, and zones lower will be
affected primarily by exposure. I say "primarily" as there is(obviously)
interaction between exposure and development, and zones below V will be
affected by development.

At any rate, one may not desire to print across the full range of tones
available.
I know it is commonly stated that a good print will exhibit a Dmax black and
a
paper base white (and I could see why someone might believe that), but I
honestly don't believe A.A. ever said or wrote that; at least I can't recall
ever
coming across that in his writings, only the writings of others. I could be
wrong,
but please direct me to chapter and verse if I am :)

Oh, BTW, allow me to introduce myself to the group: My name is Guy Staley,
and I live in Seattle, WA. I have been lurking for a couple weeks now as I
am
FINALLY diving in to digital printing after waiting around for several years
for
the technology to mature, and become affordable. I'll honestly miss my wet
darkroom(it's not gone yet, but I can see it's demise looming on the
horizon),
but am enthralled by the creative potential of working digitally. I have
just
purchased an Epson 4870 and PS2200 and am about to mount the large
learning curve that lies before me. I plan on starting with the MIS UT7 inks
using Mr. Roark's work flow. In fact, I'm waiting for UPS as I write!!!

I feel privileged to have stumbled upon such a great and knowledgable group
of like-minded folks, and look forward to interacting with you all over the
months to come!

Sincerely,
-Guy


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale <
stevekale@b...> wrote:
> Did Ansel really do this?  Or did he set mid grey and let the rest fall
> where they may?
>
> (Take for example the image that is on the cover of "The Negative".)
>
>
> > From: Paul Roark <paul.roark@v...>
>
> clip
> > If you want to fully utilize the dynamic range of the medium (and I do
and
> > so did A. Adams), prints should have some pure black (0 on the 0-255, 8-
bit
> > digital scale, but also referred to as 100% in terms of the ink load)
and
> > very little pure paper white (255 on the 8-bit scale, and 0% ink).
> >
> > Paul
> > www.PaulRoark.com









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--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" <paul.roark@v...> 
wrote:

> With the histogram, the basic idea is to fully utilize the dynamic range of
> the file and printing medium without clipping off the highlights or shadows...
> If you want to fully utilize the dynamic range of the medium (and I do and
> so did A. Adams), prints should have some pure black (0 on the 0-255, 8-bit
> digital scale, but also referred to as 100% in terms of the ink load) and
> very little pure paper white (255 on the 8-bit scale, and 0% ink).

paul,

you commented in an earlier message that the zone system is obsolete now that we have 
histograms. you are right when the procedure you describe here works. but in many cases, 
the dynamic range of the scene extends beyond the dynamic range that can be recorded. 
in that case, information at one end of the dynamic range must be sacrificed. my 
understanding of the zone system is that it addresses exactly this issue: not how to get 
the whole dynamic range on paper, but rather how to select the exposure to 'focus' on the 
part of the image you care about. what ansel adams showed us was how to make that 
selection reliably. a histogram alone won't help you do this: at the very least you need a 
spot meter to determine the luminance of particular points in the scene.

/daniel

Daniel,

>you commented in an earlier message that the zone system is obsolete 
>now that we have histograms. you are right when the procedure 
>you describe here works.

For some the ZS helps in visualization.  So, that's real useful.  I just
don't think in those terms, having trained myself more in terms of
characteristic curves and spot meter readings.  I think the old Kodak F5
publications on B&W film are about the best, most concise treatment of the
realities of how film and paper deal with dynamic range compression and
expansion.

> but in many cases, the dynamic range of the scene extends beyond 
>the dynamic range that can be recorded.  in that case, information 
>at one end of the dynamic range must be sacrificed.

Of course that's true if you're talking about many films and shooting
procedures.  On the other hand, I'm reminded of an old (Norwegian, I think)
saying that there is no such thing as bad weather, just bad clothing.  Not
only do I capture 12 stops per frame on B&W film, but I also bracket
exposure and put the frames together in PS.  So, I don't find there is much
of a limit on the dynamic range I can capture these days.

> my understanding of the zone system is that it addresses exactly 
>this issue: not how to get the whole dynamic range on paper, but 
>rather how to select the exposure to 'focus' on the 
>part of the image you care about. what ansel adams showed us was 
>how to make that selection reliably. a histogram alone won't help 
>you do this: 

>at the very least you need a spot meter to determine the 
>luminance of particular points in the scene.

Even though I don't always use one now, I think the use of my 1 degree
Pentax spot meter was a major learning tool for me.  I even taped a small
graph of my film's characteristic curve on the top of it.  That way I knew
exactly where on the density scale each spot was going.  It's a tremendous
learning tool that I highly recommend to all.  I've often said that I think
there are 2 basic exposure techniques:  (1) spot metering and (2) guessing.


Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 

________________________________





/daniel

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark"
<paul.roark@v...> 
wrote:

> With the histogram, the basic idea is to fully utilize the 
>dynamic range of the file and printing medium without clipping off 
>the highlights or shadows...
> If you want to fully utilize the dynamic range of the medium 
>(and I do and so did A. Adams), prints should have some pure black 
>(0 on the 0-255, 8-bit digital scale, but also referred to as 100% 
>in terms of the ink load) and very little pure paper white 
>(255 on the 8-bit scale, and 0% ink).
>...

At 07:40 PM 1/11/2005 +0000, you wrote:
>paul,
>
>you commented in an earlier message that the zone system is obsolete now 
>that we have
>histograms. you are right when the procedure you describe here works. but 
>in many cases,
>the dynamic range of the scene extends beyond the dynamic range that can 
>be recorded.
>in that case, information at one end of the dynamic range must be 
>sacrificed. my
>understanding of the zone system is that it addresses exactly this issue: 
>not how to get
>the whole dynamic range on paper, but rather how to select the exposure to 
>'focus' on the
>part of the image you care about. what ansel adams showed us was how to 
>make that
>selection reliably. a histogram alone won't help you do this: at the very 
>least you need a
>spot meter to determine the luminance of particular points in the scene.
>
>/daniel

Hi Daniel,

Exposure is part of that process but development is key as well.  Using the 
Zone system, as you likely know, one can contract or expand contrast by 
controlling developing time (or dilution, or type of developer, etc.).  So 
compressing and expanding dynamic range as it appeared on the processed 
negative was indeed one possible outcome of using the Zone System and Ansel 
Adams discussed this at length in "The Negative".  The closest thing we 
have to contracted development comes in RAW file processing.  RAW 
processing can sometimes regain a stop or so of detail but not much 
more.  So if, for example, the highlights are over-exposed in a digital 
file, there's little one can do to retrieve detail.  With sheet film, one 
could have tagged one side of the film holder to show that that sheet of 
film should get less development (N-1, etc.)  Increasing contrast, of 
course, can be done all kinds of ways with digital.  You're right that a 
spot meter can help one make more precise exposure decisions when the 
contrast range of the scene exceeds that of the camera (which is almost all 
the time outside on a sunny day).

That said, I don't use a spot meter any more.  I prefer to use the 
histogram and lower contrast lenses to compress the dynamic range of the 
light going to the sensor.  (as I discussed in this review: 
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/lenses/rd-1-lens.shtml)  In 
effect, I'm applying the equivalent (in film terms) of increased exposure 
and N-1 or N-2 development via the lens choice.

Cheers,

Sean

Ah yes! Paul,

It's an interesting conversation on the zone system as well as the BTZS.
They both were basically expansions of the old adage to expose for the
shadows and develope for the highlights and ,where feasible, bracket
exposures as well. Film yet today is incapable of recording the range
of reality always so ,to an extent, the same considerations as of old
prevail. One can meter in a number of ways toward exactly the same
endpoint. It's more consistency than method that is required IMHO.

My reading of AA regarding the "previsualization" thing has never been
much in line with the "throw away anything you didn't preconceive
mode" and if one looks at AA's printing history I don't think he was
slavish about it either.

You are absolutely correct in saying we have so much more in the way
of tools to work with now. As Adams did say something about the
negative being only the score and the print the performance ,I think
he too would have agreed that you capture everything you can get up
front in whatever way works.

As to compression/expansion of tones ,as far as I can see there is but
a single way to get a fully noncompressed image scale upon a wall.
It's called a window and it best be open.

Duane


<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> Daniel,
> 
> >you commented in an earlier message that the zone system is obsolete 
> >now that we have histograms. you are right when the procedure 
> >you describe here works.
> 
> For some the ZS helps in visualization.  So, that's real useful.  I just
> don't think in those terms, having trained myself more in terms of
> characteristic curves and spot meter readings.  I think the old Kodak F5
> publications on B&W film are about the best, most concise treatment
of the
> realities of how film and paper deal with dynamic range compression and
> expansion.
> 
> > but in many cases, the dynamic range of the scene extends beyond 
> >the dynamic range that can be recorded.  in that case, information 
> >at one end of the dynamic range must be sacrificed.
> 
> Of course that's true if you're talking about many films and shooting
> procedures.  On the other hand, I'm reminded of an old (Norwegian, I
think)
> saying that there is no such thing as bad weather, just bad
clothing.  Not
> only do I capture 12 stops per frame on B&W film, but I also bracket
> exposure and put the frames together in PS.  So, I don't find there
is much
> of a limit on the dynamic range I can capture these days.
> 
> > my understanding of the zone system is that it addresses exactly 
> >this issue: not how to get the whole dynamic range on paper, but 
> >rather how to select the exposure to 'focus' on the 
> >part of the image you care about. what ansel adams showed us was 
> >how to make that selection reliably. a histogram alone won't help 
> >you do this: 
> 
> >at the very least you need a spot meter to determine the 
> >luminance of particular points in the scene.
> 
> Even though I don't always use one now, I think the use of my 1 degree
> Pentax spot meter was a major learning tool for me.  I even taped a
small
> graph of my film's characteristic curve on the top of it.  That way
I knew
> exactly where on the density scale each spot was going.  It's a
tremendous
> learning tool that I highly recommend to all.  I've often said that
I think
> there are 2 basic exposure techniques:  (1) spot metering and (2)
guessing.

> 
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com 
> 
> ________________________________
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> /daniel
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark"
> <paul.roark@v...> 
> wrote:
> 
> > With the histogram, the basic idea is to fully utilize the 
> >dynamic range of the file and printing medium without clipping off 
> >the highlights or shadows...
> > If you want to fully utilize the dynamic range of the medium 
> >(and I do and so did A. Adams), prints should have some pure black 
> >(0 on the 0-255, 8-bit digital scale, but also referred to as 100% 
> >in terms of the ink load) and very little pure paper white 
> >(255 on the 8-bit scale, and 0% ink).
> >...

In the introduction to "The Negative" Ansel wrote "I eagerly await new concepts and 
processes. I believe that the electronic image will be the next major advance. Such 
systems will have their own inherent and inescapable structural characteristics, and 
the artist and functional practitioner will again strive to comprehend and control 
them."

Ansel Adams 1981

Way to go Ansel...

Phil Corlis

>you commented in an earlier message that the zone system is obsolete
>now that we have histograms. you are right when the procedure
>you describe here works.

I wouldn't agree with this. We have to separate scanned negs (which still 
have to be exposed/developed/scanned) with digital cam images. Many of us 
use negs and want to control the process like wet darkroom techniques. Most 
of my images are negs with only very recent ones being all digital. The real 
question here (for me) is how to control the process and not introduce a 
bunch of uncontrolled variables - color spaces! I find many errors when I 
"tweak" the histogram. I don't imagine that having photoshop move my white 
and black points is the kind of control that people want!

Brian