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Re: [Digital BW] New digital inerneg material

Re: [Digital BW] New digital inerneg material

2005-01-06 by sdmey4@aol.com

In a message dated 1/5/2005 5:12:49 PM Pacific Standard Time, 
steve@... writes:

> Anyone out there still working on digital internegatives? A few 
> weeks back I got a few sheets of a film called Super Clear/IJ from 
> Michael Pach and Adveturecam Photo. I've tried it a couple times at 
> this point, and I'm pleased enough with it to ressurect that 
> particular project. 
,SNIP>
Sounds interesting, does this guy have a web site or some contact info?
Steve M


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] New digital interneg material

2005-01-06 by Steven Karafyllakis

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, sdmey4@a... 
wrote:
> In a message dated 1/5/2005 5:12:49 PM Pacific Standard Time, 
> steve@s... writes:
> 
> > Anyone out there still working on digital internegatives? A few 
> > weeks back I got a few sheets of a film called Super Clear/IJ 
from 
> > Michael Pach and Adveturecam Photo. I've tried it a couple times 
at 
> > this point, and I'm pleased enough with it to ressurect that 
> > particular project. 
> ,SNIP>
> Sounds interesting, does this guy have a web site or some contact 
info?
> Steve M


Hi Steve;

His website URL is http://www.adventurecamphoto.com 




 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] New digital interneg material

2005-01-06 by sdmey4@aol.com

In a message dated 1/5/2005 8:19:48 PM Pacific Standard Time, 
steve@... writes:

> Hi Steve;
> 
> His website URL is http://www.adventurecamphoto.com 
> 
Great ,Thankyou. What kind of inks where you using with it?
I'm doing some early experiments with Platinum. And its looking toooo dull.
But i'm spoiled by near perfect Piezotone Ink Prints.
Steve M.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] New digital inerneg material

2005-01-06 by steve_bye

I have used Pictorico Hi-Gloss White Film, as Dan Buckholder suggests, to
create 8x10 negatives and have been quite successful printing them. The
problem is, of course, that you might look at the prints that I think are
good and you may think they suck. The is a huge range in what people think
are good prints. Other people thought my prints looked good, so I'm not
completely wrong.

The printing times are long - a couple minutes at F2.8 for about 11x14
coverage. I think the contrast is very good, though. The trick was making
sure that the printing time was long enough for the print to have a really
black Dmax, but no longer.

I used some of Dan Burkholder's process from his Inkjet Negative Companion
download
(http://www.danburkholder.com/Pages/main_pages/book_info_main_page1.htm) but
added a detail from D. Krehbiel
(http://kcbx.net/~mhd/2photo/outneg/outneg1.htm) to establish my exposure
time. The trick is to use the interneg step wedge that Dan Burkholder
provides, but modify it with an absolute Dmin patch (for the negative) by
adding cutting a hole in the negative, and then also creating an absolute
Dmax patch (for the negative) by adding black tape to the interneg. Then you
slowly increase the exposure time until the clear patch of the step wedge
prints just as black is the Dmin patch from the hole in the film. This is as
black as the paper will print. As a final check, the negative's Dmax patch
with the tape should print as white as the black patch of the step wedge,
which should be paper-white. I was able to get sufficient density with the
UC inks to do this with Ilford Multigrade IV RC paper with a #2 filter.. I
was amazed to be able to see the difference between 0% and 2% patch of the
step wedge, and also the 100% and 99% patch in the print. The only remaining
tweak, which I did not perform, would be to see if the 50% patch was really
50%.

The real question is "is all this effort worth it?" I have decided that I
will only use interneg's if I need the absolute blackest blacks, or need
glossies without bronzing. The QTR prints look awfully good, and are
painless.

Steve Bye
Show quoted textHide quoted text
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Steven Karafyllakis" <steve@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2005 5:10 PM
Subject: [Digital BW] New digital inerneg material




Anyone out there still working on digital internegatives? A few
weeks back I got a few sheets of a film called Super Clear/IJ from
Michael Pach and Adveturecam Photo. I've tried it a couple times at
this point, and I'm pleased enough with it to ressurect that
particular project. I had been trying Pictorico products, but
remained unsatisfied: I hate printing through the almost opaque
white plastic paper, and the OTC showed printer artifacts: the
printer dots where very clearly delineated, it showed microbanding
when normal paper wouldn't and the film itself was milky, lowering
the effective contrast, and has a lot of microscopic flaws. Also,
and probably most important, the Pictorico won't build much density
or color saturation. It seemed no matter how I went about it, I
could get enough density, spectral or otherwise to get good
contrast. Not a problem if you're using variable contrast paper, but
I need the internegs for printing the hand coated emulsion, which is
a grade two at best.

OTOH the Super Clear is, as its name implies, much more clear, at
least in part because it is thinner, so carefull handling is a must.
On the plus side, it is capable of producing much better color
saturation, especially in the yellow range where the Pictorico was
very weak. That makes it easy to produce an orange negative of
enough spectral density to make a snappy print on VC fiber paper at
a grade 2-2.5

Also, it shows printer dots less, and doesn't seem prone to showing
microbanding either. I think this is becuase there is a bit more dot
gain, which softens the edges of the printer dots a bit. Obviously
this also means slightly lower max sharpness is possible, but the
difference is not visible to the naked eye, and you have to look
carefully even with a lupe to pick it up. The lower grittiness is
definitely visible to the naked eye, and quite pleasing.

There is one catch: the material is available in 100 sheet boxes,
and while the price per sheet is much lower than Pictorico, that's
still a good chunk of change. Michael has agreed to split the
packages into 50s that's a lot easier to handle, and puts the cash
outlay close to what you'spend getting into Pictorico.

Hope this is of some use & interest

Steve Karafyllakis






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Re: [Digital BW] New digital inerneg material

2005-01-06 by Steven Karafyllakis

Hi Steve



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "steve_bye" 
<steve_bye@c...> wrote:
> I have used Pictorico Hi-Gloss White Film, as Dan Buckholder 
suggests, to
> create 8x10 negatives and have been quite successful printing 
them. 
> The printing times are long - a couple minutes at F2.8 for about 
11x14
> coverage. I think the contrast is very good, though. The trick was 
making
> sure that the printing time was long enough for the print to have 
a really
> black Dmax, but no longer.

I realized fairly quickly that I could get a decent print out of the 
white film, but the exposure times were so long with VC paper that 
trying to print Liquid Light that way was going to test my patience. 
And right now putting out a new batch of the LL prints is the only 
thing that could get me back into the chemistry. Tomorrow I'll coat 
a batch of paper and see if I really can get the contrast I need out 
of an 8x10 digital neg on Liquid Light. Should be interesting.
> 
> The real question is "is all this effort worth it?" I have decided 
that I
> will only use interneg's if I need the absolute blackest blacks, 
or need
> glossies without bronzing. The QTR prints look awfully good, and 
are
> painless.
> 
> Steve Bye
> 
The best way to get blackest blacks and glossies without bronzing is 
to find the right way to apply (a hopefully soon improved version 
of) the MIS gloss optimizer. You won't find yourself missing a good 
Dmax if we can get that working properly.

Re: New digital interneg material

2005-01-06 by Steven Karafyllakis

So far I've done most testing with the dyes, but I ran a strip 
through the 7600 w/ MIS UC inks early on. The material holds the ink 
well but I haven't yet really explored that combination yet. Also, 
I'm printing on an R300 at max dither.  

Steve K.

- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, sdmey4@a... wrote:
> In a message dated 1/5/2005 8:19:48 PM Pacific Standard Time, 
> steve@s... writes:
> 
> > Hi Steve;
> > 
> > His website URL is http://www.adventurecamphoto.com 
> > 
> Great ,Thankyou. What kind of inks where you using with it?
> I'm doing some early experiments with Platinum. And its looking 
toooo dull.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> But i'm spoiled by near perfect Piezotone Ink Prints.
> Steve M.
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] New digital inerneg material

2005-01-07 by sdmey4@aol.com

In a message dated 1/6/2005 4:10:11 PM Pacific Standard Time, 
kcarney1@... writes:

> Steve, is your hand-coated emulsion platinum or palladium or a combination?
> As you know these require a neg with a DR greater than a neg for silver
> paper.  If this film will work for pt/pd or Ziatype that is good news
> indeed.  Also, are you using dye or pigment inks?
> 
> Regards,
> 
>  --Ken Carney
>   www.kencarney.com   
> 
Ken, The emulsion was a mix pt/pd mostly palladium on Arches palintine paper? 
 A friend with about a years experience with digital negs and platinum made 
them for me using a 1280 and dye
inks. I do know he puts a color mask over the entire file in photoshop prior 
to making platinum negs. He is using a Ziatype POP. I will get him some of 
this film and let him lead the way
before I commit to making my own negs. He needs to make me a believer first. 
So far they make the Quad Piezotones look incredible.
They where smooth enough and sharp enough just rather dull looking like an 
inkjet on uncoated paper. Thats sort of what Platinum is, but we both think it 
can be better. 
Steve Meyers
www.xray-art.com



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] New digital inerneg material

2005-01-07 by steve_bye

I realize that I forgot to mention that the good results I was getting with
intenegs printed on a 2200 was for the silver/gelatin process. I know Ken
Burkholder uses the process for platinum prints.

Steve Bye
Show quoted textHide quoted text
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Ken Carney" <kcarney1@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 06, 2005 4:10 PM
Subject: RE: [Digital BW] New digital inerneg material



Steve, is your hand-coated emulsion platinum or palladium or a combination?
As you know these require a neg with a DR greater than a neg for silver
paper.  If this film will work for pt/pd or Ziatype that is good news
indeed.  Also, are you using dye or pigment inks?

Regards,

  --Ken Carney
    www.kencarney.com

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Steven Karafyllakis [mailto:steve@...]
> Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2005 7:11 PM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Digital BW] New digital inerneg material
>
>
>
> Anyone out there still working on digital internegatives? A
> few weeks back I got a few sheets of a film called Super
> Clear/IJ from Michael Pach and Adveturecam Photo. I've tried
> it a couple times at this point, and I'm pleased enough with
> it to ressurect that particular project. I had been trying
> Pictorico products, but remained unsatisfied: I hate printing
> through the almost opaque white plastic paper, and the OTC
> showed printer artifacts: the printer dots where very clearly
> delineated, it showed microbanding when normal paper wouldn't
> and the film itself was milky, lowering the effective
> contrast, and has a lot of microscopic flaws. Also, and
> probably most important, the Pictorico won't build much
> density or color saturation. It seemed no matter how I went
> about it, I could get enough density, spectral or otherwise
> to get good contrast. Not a problem if you're using variable
> contrast paper, but I need the internegs for printing the
> hand coated emulsion, which is a grade two at best.
>
> OTOH the Super Clear is, as its name implies, much more
> clear, at least in part because it is thinner, so carefull
> handling is a must.
> On the plus side, it is capable of producing much better
> color saturation, especially in the yellow range where the
> Pictorico was very weak. That makes it easy to produce an
> orange negative of enough spectral density to make a snappy
> print on VC fiber paper at a grade 2-2.5
>
> Also, it shows printer dots less, and doesn't seem prone to
> showing microbanding either. I think this is becuase there is
> a bit more dot gain, which softens the edges of the printer
> dots a bit. Obviously this also means slightly lower max
> sharpness is possible, but the difference is not visible to
> the naked eye, and you have to look carefully even with a
> lupe to pick it up. The lower grittiness is definitely
> visible to the naked eye, and quite pleasing.
>
> There is one catch: the material is available in 100 sheet
> boxes, and while the price per sheet is much lower than
> Pictorico, that's still a good chunk of change. Michael has
> agreed to split the packages into 50s that's a lot easier to
> handle, and puts the cash outlay close to what you'spend
> getting into Pictorico.
>
> Hope this is of some use & interest
>
> Steve Karafyllakis




Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
they are often being updated.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
page.

Please follow these basic guidelines:
- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
membership without notice.
- Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from
the membership.
- By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and
Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files section:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/

BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND
"MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU
FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY
DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS,
GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  "OWNER" AND
"MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE
POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY
TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR
ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY
THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER
MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.

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Re: [Digital BW] New digital inerneg material

2005-01-07 by Mark Savoia

I think you mean Dan.
Mark

On Jan 7, 2005, at 2:00 PM, steve_bye wrote:

> I know Ken
>  Burkholder uses the process for platinum prints.
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] New digital inerneg material

2005-01-08 by Steven Karafyllakis

Hi Ken; 

Sorry I dropped out there, I pikced up bug & have been horizontal 
for a couple days.


-- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "steve_bye" 
> Steve, is your hand-coated emulsion platinum or palladium or a 
combination?
> As you know these require a neg with a DR greater than a neg for 
silver
> paper.  If this film will work for pt/pd or Ziatype that is good 
news
> indeed.  Also, are you using dye or pigment inks?
> 

Actually, my hand coated emulsion is silver- Liquid Light to be 
exact. I discovered a few years ago that it actually is possible to 
get a decent print out of the stuff, given enough coats on the paper 
and a snappy negative. I have no idea how the DR compares to 
platinum, my guess is you still need a lot more contrast than I've 
worked up for this test. The inks I'm using are dyes-you could 
probably get better DR just by switching to pigments, those being 
more opaque. And at this point, I'm still not sure the neg I've made 
will work with LL, turns out what I had in the regrigerator is too 
old and has gotten coarse, gritty,& muddy. So I'm on hold until I 
get some more, and also some more Super Clear film so I can try some 
variations.

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