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Re: [Digital BW] IJC/OPM and dmax issue

2005-01-30 by A. Huntley

Hi Nick,

I see that Lou already provided a fairly detailed answer, but I'll toss in a 
thought or two...well, too!

Did you build your initial EEM profile from the one that was delivered with 
the software? I'm assuming that any discussion regarding profiles is 
applicable to both Mac and Windows platforms. I'm using the newly release 
Windows version so my comments are based on that.

I received three different "neutral" starter profiles for EEM. I believe 
each had the black ink limit set to 22. My Epson 2200 with standard UC inks 
demanded 23 or 24--can't remember the exact number cuz I worked on 4 
profiles, yesterday--to reach dMax. This is evaluated by selecting "Target 
Patches" off the "Print Targets" button. Did you print these patches and 
evaluate after drying (I tossed mine in the microwave for 10 secs on high)? 
As Lou said, one has to be very careful with ink limits; too little and, of 
course, you won't achieve dMax. However, too much is not good, either, 
because you'll actually reduce dMax. Therefore, it's bad procedure to 
arbitrarily bump the black ink limit to 26. You could be doing more harm 
than good. If you haven't done this already, take a look at the usage of 
other inks and where the curves start/stop, too.

Good luck,
Alan Huntley

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----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Nick Nugent" <nick_h_nugent@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2005 11:54 AM
Subject: [Digital BW] IJC/OPM and dmax issue

Hello IJC/OPM users,

I was initially very thrilled at the ability to create quad tone profiles 
very quickly using IJC but after printing one of my favorite image for 
comparision with one using the IJC profile and one using Paul Roark's curve 
for MIS UT-FS for EEM paper I noticed that the one using Paul's curve is 
significantly more brilliant.

It's not the the IJC/OPM image is flat, it's very nicely rendered. Smooth 
gradients with good details in both shadow and highlights. But measurements 
of darkest patches show the one printed using Paul's curve has the expected 
high DMax of 1.67 or somewhere about there. The one rendered by OPM yields 
about 1.59. This is enough to show the first one has significantly more 
punch when they are placed side by side.

Can someone explain?

I played with IJC to push maximum ink limit, increase the black ink setting, 
cut off the medium gray earlier, force maximum overlap, etc. but there are 
no changes. The maximum dmax remained the same.

Thanks,
--nick

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Re: [Digital BW] IJC/OPM and dmax issue

2005-01-31 by Nick H. Nugent

Hi Lou and Alan,

I happened to read Antonis reply first but all of you seem to point 
in the same direction. Since I couldn't find anything close to the 
1160/MIS-UT-FS combination I started from scratch. I'll definitely 
look at the ink overloading issue to see if I can achieve the same 
thing as the Epson driver.

Another thing though is Paul Roark's curve appears to have an S 
shape which adds a little more punch to the print for sure, but at 
this point I'm only looking at the density of the darkest patch in 
the target for linearization. Once that is solved I may look at 
tweaking the curve like what Paul has as I like the way his prints 
look.

Thank you all for taking your time to answer this question,
--nick

Re: [Digital BW] IJC/OPM and dmax issue

2005-01-31 by Nick H. Nugent

Hi all,

I did what Antonis suggested to identify the black ink limit for the 
1160/UT-FS on Photo Rag: print a black-only target using a straight 
diagonal ink shape and use a spectro to read the patches.

Unfortunately the darkest patch still has the highest density and it 
is still way below the density produced by the Epson driver. What 
this means is OPM has yet to print to the 1160 past the point where 
it overloads the paper.

I'm afraid this is something for Joe Berndt to look at.  I'm sure 
Joe will find a solution to this problem in a little while.

Thanks Antonis, Lou and Alan for your inputs. Without your 
suggestions I'd still be trying to get this elusive dmax instead of 
looking to Bowhaus for the ultimate solution.

--nick

RE: [Digital BW] IJC/OPM and dmax issue

2005-01-31 by Paul Roark

It may be that on some of the older dye printers the Gimp print engine has
some disadvantages compared to the Epson driver.

For example, I've done limited testing with IJC and QTR on a 1280 and found
the dmax of both systems low compared to the Epson driver.  Test strips I've
seen from the newer, pigment printers look very good, however.  The 1280
printing speed was also very slow on the 1280 with IJC and QTR compared to
the Epson driver.  On my 7500, however, the speed and dmax are fine.  

So, the dmax and speed problems seem to be printer-specific.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Show quoted textHide quoted text

-----Original Message-----
From: Nick H. Nugent [mailto:nghin@...] 
Sent: Sunday, January 30, 2005 10:04 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] IJC/OPM and dmax issue

Hi all,

I did what Antonis suggested to identify the black ink limit for the 
1160/UT-FS on Photo Rag: print a black-only target using a straight 
diagonal ink shape and use a spectro to read the patches.

Unfortunately the darkest patch still has the highest density and it 
is still way below the density produced by the Epson driver. What 
this means is OPM has yet to print to the 1160 past the point where 
it overloads the paper.

I'm afraid this is something for Joe Berndt to look at.  I'm sure 
Joe will find a solution to this problem in a little while.

Thanks Antonis, Lou and Alan for your inputs. Without your 
suggestions I'd still be trying to get this elusive dmax instead of 
looking to Bowhaus for the ultimate solution.

--nick

Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
they are often being updated.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
page.

Please follow these basic guidelines:
- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
membership without notice.
- Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from
the membership.
- By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and
Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files section:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/

BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND
"MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU
FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY
DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS,
GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  "OWNER" AND
"MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE
POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY
TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR
ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY
THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER
MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.

Yahoo! Groups Links

Re: [Digital BW] IJC/OPM and dmax issue

2005-01-31 by koloshor

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark"
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> It may be that on some of the older dye printers the Gimp print
engine has
> some disadvantages compared to the Epson driver.
> 
> For example, I've done limited testing with IJC and QTR on a 1280
and found
> the dmax of both systems low compared to the Epson driver.

Have you debuged a USB trace to the printer and seen that the ink mix
is? Or used a spectrophotometer to check what Epson's "black" looks
like, compared to some different black "mixes"?

It's not uncommon for a max black on a dye inkjet to be an interesting
"past 100%" ink mix. Often with a magenta or magenta/cyan boost, and
as much as a 200% ink load.

Not like the 400-500% loads I use for uncoated watercolor paper, but
scary anyway.

> Test strips I've
> seen from the newer, pigment printers look very good, however.

They tend to be pure black. The pigment printers usually bottom out
below 100% inkload. I've seen some coated papers that can deal with
loads up to about 150% on a 2200, but our 7600 can't go past 80% on
anything coated without making a mess.

> The 1280
> printing speed was also very slow on the 1280 with IJC and QTR
compared to
> the Epson driver.

Now that's just plain weird. I don't recall anything about unusually
slow 1280 speeds on the GIMP Print developers list.

> On my 7500, however, the speed and dmax are fine.  
> 
> So, the dmax and speed problems seem to be printer-specific.

Very much so.

Ciao!

Joe

Digital BW, The Print

Re: [Digital BW] IJC/OPM and dmax issue

Re: [Digital BW] IJC/OPM and dmax issue

Re: [Digital BW] IJC/OPM and dmax issue

Re: [Digital BW] IJC/OPM and dmax issue

RE: [Digital BW] IJC/OPM and dmax issue

Re: [Digital BW] IJC/OPM and dmax issue

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