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Difference between Gray LAB and Proofing Profiles

Difference between Gray LAB and Proofing Profiles

2005-01-31 by ldina

Roy,

I have built "proofing profiles" using your 21 step grayscale for 
QTR.  They seem to do a very good job of simulating what I will get 
off my printer.  And, so do you new LAB spaces.  Thanks for your 
great work.

What is the difference between the two?  

I'm guessing that your LAB Matte and LAB Photo Paper profiles are 
generic profiles which eliminate the need to create proofing profiles 
with a specto and profiling software for those that don't have these 
tools or don't want to fool with them.  When I use either technique 
for proofing (checking the Preserve Color Numbers box) the results 
are nearly identical.  Both seem to give me great results.  The 21 
step proofing profile, of course, lets me see the actual color toning 
of the actual profile.

Just trying to better understand.

Thanks, Lou

Re: Difference between Gray LAB and Proofing Profiles

2005-01-31 by Roy Harrington

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "ldina" <lbdina@c...> wrote:
> 
> Roy,
> 
> I have built "proofing profiles" using your 21 step grayscale for 
> QTR.  They seem to do a very good job of simulating what I will get 
> off my printer.  And, so do you new LAB spaces.  Thanks for your 
> great work.
> 
> What is the difference between the two?  

Well I discovered that except for the proofing color any of the soft proofs
seemed to work equally well for my editing.   It makes sense since all the
QTR profiles are linearized to the same Lab scale.

The icc profiles I made with the Eye-One work well but they are kind of time
consuming and particularly space comsuming.   The few soft proofs I have
for downloading are bigger that the total size of everything else put together.
Each profile is about 500K whereas these new generic ones are less than
500 bytes each (yes, 1/1000 the size).   There's also a matter of licensing
I can't distribute profiles made with i1Match software so I just have been 
distributing soft-proofs.

So the new lab space and lab printing profiles are my own and they are
simple, grayscale only, mathematically straight rather than measurements.
Since I can distribute the icc profiles themselves rather than just soft-proofs
they can be used for printing and take advantage of the color management
in Photoshop.

> 
> I'm guessing that your LAB Matte and LAB Photo Paper profiles are 
> generic profiles which eliminate the need to create proofing profiles 
> with a specto and profiling software for those that don't have these 
> tools or don't want to fool with them.  When I use either technique 
> for proofing (checking the Preserve Color Numbers box) the results 

There's basically two approaches for soft-proofing and printing.
The old way without using CMM (color management) is to print without
profiles -- i.e.  Same as Source -- and use the soft proofing to show what
is going to come out.  Here we make the profile but soft-proof with
Preserve Color Numbers.  This says "show me what happens if I don't
use CMM".  You are simulating the print space.

The new way is to use CMM for printing and let the CMM convert your editing
space into the print space on the fly.  You really have no need to soft-proof
anymore (as long as you don't need the color).   If you unclick the Preserve
Color Numbers there's no change in the display.  The regular view is as
good as the soft-proof without any extra work.   Also since you are using the
CMM you can actually deal with any working space not just the gray lab space.

Roy
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> are nearly identical.  Both seem to give me great results.  The 21 
> step proofing profile, of course, lets me see the actual color toning 
> of the actual profile.
> 
> Just trying to better understand.
> 
> Thanks, Lou

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Difference between Gray LAB and Proofing Profiles

2005-01-31 by Steve Kale

I would also go one step further and say that you could soft-proof the old
way but then had to "correct" the "crude" tonal transformation with an s
curve to regain punch.  By using CMM Roy has gained access to Perceptual
Intent rendering which makes that whole task automatic and a little more
"rigorous".
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> From: Roy Harrington <roy@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 05:35:58 -0000
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Difference between Gray LAB and Proofing Profiles
> 
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "ldina" <lbdina@c...>
> wrote:
>> 
>> Roy,
>> 
>> I have built "proofing profiles" using your 21 step grayscale for
>> QTR.  They seem to do a very good job of simulating what I will get
>> off my printer.  And, so do you new LAB spaces.  Thanks for your
>> great work.
>> 
>> What is the difference between the two?
> 
> Well I discovered that except for the proofing color any of the soft proofs
> seemed to work equally well for my editing.   It makes sense since all the
> QTR profiles are linearized to the same Lab scale.
> 
> The icc profiles I made with the Eye-One work well but they are kind of time
> consuming and particularly space comsuming.   The few soft proofs I have
> for downloading are bigger that the total size of everything else put
> together.
> Each profile is about 500K whereas these new generic ones are less than
> 500 bytes each (yes, 1/1000 the size).   There's also a matter of licensing
> I can't distribute profiles made with i1Match software so I just have been
> distributing soft-proofs.
> 
> So the new lab space and lab printing profiles are my own and they are
> simple, grayscale only, mathematically straight rather than measurements.
> Since I can distribute the icc profiles themselves rather than just
> soft-proofs
> they can be used for printing and take advantage of the color management
> in Photoshop.
> 
>> 
>> I'm guessing that your LAB Matte and LAB Photo Paper profiles are
>> generic profiles which eliminate the need to create proofing profiles
>> with a specto and profiling software for those that don't have these
>> tools or don't want to fool with them.  When I use either technique
>> for proofing (checking the Preserve Color Numbers box) the results
> 
> There's basically two approaches for soft-proofing and printing.
> The old way without using CMM (color management) is to print without
> profiles -- i.e.  Same as Source -- and use the soft proofing to show what
> is going to come out.  Here we make the profile but soft-proof with
> Preserve Color Numbers.  This says "show me what happens if I don't
> use CMM".  You are simulating the print space.
> 
> The new way is to use CMM for printing and let the CMM convert your editing
> space into the print space on the fly.  You really have no need to soft-proof
> anymore (as long as you don't need the color).   If you unclick the Preserve
> Color Numbers there's no change in the display.  The regular view is as
> good as the soft-proof without any extra work.   Also since you are using the
> CMM you can actually deal with any working space not just the gray lab space.
> 
> Roy
> 
> 
>> are nearly identical.  Both seem to give me great results.  The 21
>> step proofing profile, of course, lets me see the actual color toning
>> of the actual profile.
>> 
>> Just trying to better understand.
>> 
>> Thanks, Lou

Re: Difference between Gray LAB and Proofing Profiles

2005-01-31 by ldina

Thanks, Roy.  

I think I understand now.  

Working on a PC means I have to import the final image into QTR for 
printing.  So, if I use the soft proofs built from your 21 step 
wedge, I would have to add an adjustment layer and tweak the images 
to my satisfaction first, as always.

Using your new Gray Lab spaces, I would still have to make the 
conversion manually in PS to the Matte or Photo Gray space, and save 
it as a converted file for importing into QTR for printing.  
Certainly faster and easier than creating a separate adjustment layer 
and tweaking it.  I guess the Mac still has a few advantages over the 
PC.

So, I have a choice of two excellent ways to get in print what I saw 
on screen.  

Great contribution to a perennial problem.

Thanks again, Lou

p.s.  I have ProfileMaker, and I don't recall any restrictions on 
sharing profiles with that software.  Is i1 Match different??



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Roy Harrington" 
<roy@h...> wrote:
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "ldina" 
<lbdina@c...> wrote:
> > 
> > Roy,
> > 
> > I have built "proofing profiles" using your 21 step grayscale for 
> > QTR.  They seem to do a very good job of simulating what I will 
get 
> > off my printer.  And, so do you new LAB spaces.  Thanks for your 
> > great work.
> > 
> > What is the difference between the two?  
> 
> Well I discovered that except for the proofing color any of the 
soft proofs
> seemed to work equally well for my editing.   It makes sense since 
all the
> QTR profiles are linearized to the same Lab scale.
> 
> The icc profiles I made with the Eye-One work well but they are 
kind of time
> consuming and particularly space comsuming.   The few soft proofs I 
have
> for downloading are bigger that the total size of everything else 
put together.
> Each profile is about 500K whereas these new generic ones are less 
than
> 500 bytes each (yes, 1/1000 the size).   There's also a matter of 
licensing
> I can't distribute profiles made with i1Match software so I just 
have been 
> distributing soft-proofs.
> 
> So the new lab space and lab printing profiles are my own and they 
are
> simple, grayscale only, mathematically straight rather than 
measurements.
> Since I can distribute the icc profiles themselves rather than just 
soft-proofs
> they can be used for printing and take advantage of the color 
management
> in Photoshop.
> 
> > 
> > I'm guessing that your LAB Matte and LAB Photo Paper profiles are 
> > generic profiles which eliminate the need to create proofing 
profiles 
> > with a specto and profiling software for those that don't have 
these 
> > tools or don't want to fool with them.  When I use either 
technique 
> > for proofing (checking the Preserve Color Numbers box) the 
results 
> 
> There's basically two approaches for soft-proofing and printing.
> The old way without using CMM (color management) is to print without
> profiles -- i.e.  Same as Source -- and use the soft proofing to 
show what
> is going to come out.  Here we make the profile but soft-proof with
> Preserve Color Numbers.  This says "show me what happens if I don't
> use CMM".  You are simulating the print space.
> 
> The new way is to use CMM for printing and let the CMM convert your 
editing
> space into the print space on the fly.  You really have no need to 
soft-proof
> anymore (as long as you don't need the color).   If you unclick the 
Preserve
> Color Numbers there's no change in the display.  The regular view 
is as
> good as the soft-proof without any extra work.   Also since you are 
using the
> CMM you can actually deal with any working space not just the gray 
lab space.
> 
> Roy
> 
> 
> > are nearly identical.  Both seem to give me great results.  The 
21 
> > step proofing profile, of course, lets me see the actual color 
toning 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> > of the actual profile.
> > 
> > Just trying to better understand.
> > 
> > Thanks, Lou

[Digital BW] Re: Difference between Gray LAB and Proofing Profiles

2005-01-31 by ldina

Thanks, Steve.

I see the wisdom of it now.  Pretty slick.

Regards, Lou

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale 
<stevekale@b...> wrote:
> I would also go one step further and say that you could soft-proof 
the old
> way but then had to "correct" the "crude" tonal transformation with 
an s
> curve to regain punch.  By using CMM Roy has gained access to 
Perceptual
> Intent rendering which makes that whole task automatic and a little 
more
> "rigorous".
> 
> 
> > From: Roy Harrington <roy@h...>
> > Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> > Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2005 05:35:58 -0000
> > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> > Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Difference between Gray LAB and 
Proofing Profiles
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "ldina" 
<lbdina@c...>
> > wrote:
> >> 
> >> Roy,
> >> 
> >> I have built "proofing profiles" using your 21 step grayscale for
> >> QTR.  They seem to do a very good job of simulating what I will 
get
> >> off my printer.  And, so do you new LAB spaces.  Thanks for your
> >> great work.
> >> 
> >> What is the difference between the two?
> > 
> > Well I discovered that except for the proofing color any of the 
soft proofs
> > seemed to work equally well for my editing.   It makes sense 
since all the
> > QTR profiles are linearized to the same Lab scale.
> > 
> > The icc profiles I made with the Eye-One work well but they are 
kind of time
> > consuming and particularly space comsuming.   The few soft proofs 
I have
> > for downloading are bigger that the total size of everything else 
put
> > together.
> > Each profile is about 500K whereas these new generic ones are 
less than
> > 500 bytes each (yes, 1/1000 the size).   There's also a matter of 
licensing
> > I can't distribute profiles made with i1Match software so I just 
have been
> > distributing soft-proofs.
> > 
> > So the new lab space and lab printing profiles are my own and 
they are
> > simple, grayscale only, mathematically straight rather than 
measurements.
> > Since I can distribute the icc profiles themselves rather than 
just
> > soft-proofs
> > they can be used for printing and take advantage of the color 
management
> > in Photoshop.
> > 
> >> 
> >> I'm guessing that your LAB Matte and LAB Photo Paper profiles are
> >> generic profiles which eliminate the need to create proofing 
profiles
> >> with a specto and profiling software for those that don't have 
these
> >> tools or don't want to fool with them.  When I use either 
technique
> >> for proofing (checking the Preserve Color Numbers box) the 
results
> > 
> > There's basically two approaches for soft-proofing and printing.
> > The old way without using CMM (color management) is to print 
without
> > profiles -- i.e.  Same as Source -- and use the soft proofing to 
show what
> > is going to come out.  Here we make the profile but soft-proof 
with
> > Preserve Color Numbers.  This says "show me what happens if I 
don't
> > use CMM".  You are simulating the print space.
> > 
> > The new way is to use CMM for printing and let the CMM convert 
your editing
> > space into the print space on the fly.  You really have no need 
to soft-proof
> > anymore (as long as you don't need the color).   If you unclick 
the Preserve
> > Color Numbers there's no change in the display.  The regular view 
is as
> > good as the soft-proof without any extra work.   Also since you 
are using the
> > CMM you can actually deal with any working space not just the 
gray lab space.
> > 
> > Roy
> > 
> > 
> >> are nearly identical.  Both seem to give me great results.  The 
21
> >> step proofing profile, of course, lets me see the actual color 
toning
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> >> of the actual profile.
> >> 
> >> Just trying to better understand.
> >> 
> >> Thanks, Lou

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