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Re: [Digital BW] 19th Century Varnished Prints and Other Observations

Re: [Digital BW] 19th Century Varnished Prints and Other Observations

2001-11-16 by SKID Photography

Martin Wesley wrote:

>
> <snip>
>
> Overall the very old prints were doing well except for the paper. In
> many cases the image appeared to be just fine but the paper
> underneath was disintegrating. Something to keep in mind when
> selecting papers for printing. Those pH pens are of value and the
> papers that test well with the pens will stand the test of time
> better than those that do not. There is an opportunity to use papers
> with inkjet printing that are more durable than the paper used for
> silver fiber. Due to wet processing silver prints cannot be buffered
> with an alkaline reserve. Image permanence aside, a nice piece of
> Hahnemule or Crane paper will outlast the paper substrate of Ilford
> fiber.

<snip>

Martin,
Thank you for the wonderful report about the workshop.  Looking at 'real' prints, up close and personal is
always a treat.

But I must take issue with the 'acid pen' and the 'buffered' pspers statement.

I still maintain that buffering has, so far, shown itself to be detrimental to inkjet inks and also, that if
the paper has an acid component (using wood pulp instead of cotton, or 'rag' fibers')  the buffering agents
will be overwhelmed in the long run and self destruct.

Those old photos were, in general, made on rag papers that were acid free to start with, and then, over time
they have encountered acids in the atmosphere, causing the degradations.

It is my feeling that if one wants long term stability (like on the old photos) one should use rag papers,
which have slight amounts of buffering agents in them...hopefully enough to neutralize acid atmosphere over
time, but not enough to degrade the inks...Unlike wood pulp papers that achieve ph neutrality only because of
large amounts of buffering agents.

Harvey Ferdschneider
partner, SKID Photography, NYC


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] 19th Century Varnished Prints and Other Observations

2001-11-16 by Paul Roark

Harvey,

You wrote:

>... I must take issue with the 'acid pen' and the 'buffered' papers ...

>I still maintain that buffering has, so far, shown itself to be detrimental
>to inkjet inks and also, that if
>the paper has an acid component (using wood pulp instead of cotton, or
>'rag' fibers')  the buffering agents
>will be overwhelmed in the long run and self destruct.

I think I agree with this.  From what I've heard buffering has a negative
impact on image permanence -- which may not correlate with paper permanence,
of course.  Also, I think the fact that the newspaper I get tests as
non-acid with the pen and yet self-destructs very quickly shows that cheap
buffering can fool the pens (and government regulations, perhaps) while not
solving the problems.

However, I also seem to remember reading that wood pulp can be used to make
good paper if the lignin is removed.  Apparently that is the acid reserve in
cheap, wood-based paper.  The process by which the paper is made also
appears to be critical.

So, the question for mass-market (read inexpensive) paper might be whether a
lignin-free, wood-pulp paper without buffering can be stable.  My reading
indicates that is what Epson tried to do with "Archival matte."  Of course,
that fact that they are changing the name may indicate that their latest
research indicates the paper is not archival.  (The legal department must
have been pulled into the issue only after the marketing department came up
with the EAM name.)

>It is my feeling that if one wants long term stability
>(like on the old photos) one should use rag papers,
>which have slight amounts of buffering agents in them...hopefully enough to
>neutralize acid atmosphere over time, ...

I think I'm going to start using EAM for display prints only (where image
permanence is primary) and Museo for the old photo reproductions (where long
term dark storage is the issue).

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com

Varnished Prints

2001-11-16 by the Don

Hi Everyone, 

I used a matte Damar varnish on a print with epson dye inks. It dried
down and left a coat of white powdery stuff that covered the print. Now
I can barely see the ink! Any idea what I did wrong? Should I be using
the gloss varnish, or maybe I used too much? Any insight would be
greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

Don Eby

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Find the one for you at Yahoo! Personals
http://personals.yahoo.com

Re: [Digital BW] 19th Century Varnished Prints and Other Observations

2001-11-16 by SKID Photography

Paul Roark wrote:

> <big snip>
>
> I think I'm going to start using EAM for display prints only (where image
> permanence is primary) and Museo for the old photo reproductions (where long
> term dark storage is the issue).
>
>

Shouldn't the Museo cover both issues?


Harvey Ferdschneider
partner, SKID Photography, NYC


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] 19th Century Varnished Prints and Other Observations

2001-11-16 by Martin Wesley

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., SKID Photography 
<skid@b...> wrote:

(snip)
> 
> But I must take issue with the 'acid pen' and the 'buffered' pspers 
statement.
> 
> I still maintain that buffering has, so far, shown itself to be 
detrimental to inkjet inks and also, that if
> the paper has an acid component (using wood pulp instead of cotton, 
or 'rag' fibers')  the buffering agents
> will be overwhelmed in the long run and self destruct.

Harvey,

There are many qualities that determine a good paper. One is the pH 
of the paper as a measure of acid content which is easy to check with 
the pH test pens. Another is that the paper be lignin free, which is 
not so easy to measure. Lignin is the component in wood pulp papers 
that breakdown into acid compounds and cause yellowing. Quality wood 
pulp papers are made that are lignin-free and are the equal to rag or 
cotton paper in permanence. The lignin free wood pulp papers are 
preferred in many applications as there are stronger than rag papers.

Buffering is added to lignin free, acid free papers to form an 
alkaline reserve to protect them from environmental conditions that 
would cause the papers to become acidic.

Quality papers are made with out buffering that will last as long as 
the buffered papers if not subjected to outside sources of acid.

Non-buffered papers are required for use with dye based materials as 
color dyes will react badly with the buffering agents. Dyed textiles, 
dye transfer prints and I imagine dye-based inkjet prints should not 
be used on buffered paper to ensure image permanence. I believe that 
the "Archival" in EAM has to do with image permanence and that the 
paper was designed to work with the Epson 2000P.

A high quality lignin-free, acid-free paper without buffering will 
have a pH of about 5.5 to 6.0 and will test acid with a pH test pen. 
This is the situation with silver fiber paper, which will test right 
on the threshold of the pen. EAM tests on the acid side of the 
threshold but is probably an acid-free paper in its manufacture. From 
its stiffness I would be very surprised if EAM was not a wood pulp 
paper.

While I agree with your point about non-buffered papers and image 
permanence for dye based ink sets, I think that buffered papers are a 
better way to go with the carbon pigment quads. A lot of fade testing 
has been done with the carbon pigment inks on a number of papers and 
there does not appear to be any relationship between the buffering 
and image permanence from the information we have. So unless you know 
that the buffering will effect image permanence, you are better off 
going with the buffered papers that offer protection from 
environmental contamination.

Also keep in mind that the vast majority of art papers being used for 
inkjet printing is buffered. Hahnemule, Crane, Legion, Brightcube, 
Hawk Mountain, etc. are all buffered papers. If you want non-buffered 
papers the choices are pretty limited. 

The other quality of a good paper to consider is the presence of 
optical brightening agents of OBA's. These add to the image range but 
will yellow with time. The yellowing of EAM in Paul's fade tests is 
probably due entirely to the decay of the OBA. Crane's Museo, which 
has no OBA's, did not yellow. Other papers use varying amounts and 
yellow to different degrees. The decay of the OBA's will be in direct 
proportion to the amount of UV they are exposed to.

There is a huge amount of information on paper permanence. If you 
check the Files and Bookmarks sections there are some links.
> 
> Those old photos were, in general, made on rag papers that were 
acid free to start with, and then, over time
> they have encountered acids in the atmosphere, causing the 
degradations.

You could see marked differences from different time periods. The 
1840's paper was still white but the papers from the late 1800's and 
into the early 1900's were in bad shape. If it was strictly 
environmental, then some should have been ok and others not, but they 
all showed decay. It was not so much that they were yellowed but that 
they had turned dark chipboard gray, which I suspect was caused by 
the use of wood pulp in the paper. Whatever the reason it was very 
sad to see.

> 
> It is my feeling that if one wants long term stability (like on the 
old photos) one should use rag papers,
> which have slight amounts of buffering agents in them...hopefully 
enough to neutralize acid atmosphere over
> time, but not enough to degrade the inks...Unlike wood pulp papers 
that achieve ph neutrality only because of
> large amounts of buffering agents.

Rag is a good choice but like I said you can make a high quality, 
lignin-free, pH neutral wood pulp paper that is the equal to rag.

Martin Wesley

(snip)

Re: [Digital BW] 19th Century Varnished Prints and Other Observations

2001-11-16 by Robert Rex

Excellent post, Martin!
the only thing i would add is that the "amount" of buffering agents 
tend to affect the archivalness of a paper.  Libary of Congress 
standards indicate that they consider an archival paper to have not 
more than 3-5% of fillers (fillers include buffering agents like 
CaCO3, pigments like titanium dioxide or silica) by weight. (my 
memory may be off here, but i think i posted the LoC website in an 
earlier post and Martin bookmarked it in the Files section of this 
list.
Fillers are measured by the amount of ash resulting by burning the 
paper. 
Museo contains 2.8-3.3% filler or buffering agent (Calcium carbonate 
in Museo's case; this is the most common alkaline buffering agent--
arches, etc have used this for centuries.)  We have tested some 
papers--internally--with an ash content as high as 10%.
hope this helps,
robert rex
crane & co

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Martin Wesley" 
<mwesley250@e...> wrote:
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., SKID Photography 
> <skid@b...> wrote:
> 
> (snip)
> > 
> > But I must take issue with the 'acid pen' and the 'buffered' 
pspers 
> statement.
> > 
> > I still maintain that buffering has, so far, shown itself to be 
> detrimental to inkjet inks and also, that if
> > the paper has an acid component (using wood pulp instead of 
cotton, 
> or 'rag' fibers')  the buffering agents
> > will be overwhelmed in the long run and self destruct.
> 
> Harvey,
> 
> There are many qualities that determine a good paper. One is the pH 
> of the paper as a measure of acid content which is easy to check 
with 
> the pH test pens. Another is that the paper be lignin free, which 
is 
> not so easy to measure. Lignin is the component in wood pulp papers 
> that breakdown into acid compounds and cause yellowing. Quality 
wood 
> pulp papers are made that are lignin-free and are the equal to rag 
or 
> cotton paper in permanence. The lignin free wood pulp papers are 
> preferred in many applications as there are stronger than rag 
papers.
> 
> Buffering is added to lignin free, acid free papers to form an 
> alkaline reserve to protect them from environmental conditions that 
> would cause the papers to become acidic.
> 
> Quality papers are made with out buffering that will last as long 
as 
> the buffered papers if not subjected to outside sources of acid.
> 
> Non-buffered papers are required for use with dye based materials 
as 
> color dyes will react badly with the buffering agents. Dyed 
textiles, 
> dye transfer prints and I imagine dye-based inkjet prints should 
not 
> be used on buffered paper to ensure image permanence. I believe 
that 
> the "Archival" in EAM has to do with image permanence and that the 
> paper was designed to work with the Epson 2000P.
> 
> A high quality lignin-free, acid-free paper without buffering will 
> have a pH of about 5.5 to 6.0 and will test acid with a pH test 
pen. 
> This is the situation with silver fiber paper, which will test 
right 
> on the threshold of the pen. EAM tests on the acid side of the 
> threshold but is probably an acid-free paper in its manufacture. 
From 
> its stiffness I would be very surprised if EAM was not a wood pulp 
> paper.
> 
> While I agree with your point about non-buffered papers and image 
> permanence for dye based ink sets, I think that buffered papers are 
a 
> better way to go with the carbon pigment quads. A lot of fade 
testing 
> has been done with the carbon pigment inks on a number of papers 
and 
> there does not appear to be any relationship between the buffering 
> and image permanence from the information we have. So unless you 
know 
> that the buffering will effect image permanence, you are better off 
> going with the buffered papers that offer protection from 
> environmental contamination.
> 
> Also keep in mind that the vast majority of art papers being used 
for 
> inkjet printing is buffered. Hahnemule, Crane, Legion, Brightcube, 
> Hawk Mountain, etc. are all buffered papers. If you want non-
buffered 
> papers the choices are pretty limited. 
> 
> The other quality of a good paper to consider is the presence of 
> optical brightening agents of OBA's. These add to the image range 
but 
> will yellow with time. The yellowing of EAM in Paul's fade tests is 
> probably due entirely to the decay of the OBA. Crane's Museo, which 
> has no OBA's, did not yellow. Other papers use varying amounts and 
> yellow to different degrees. The decay of the OBA's will be in 
direct 
> proportion to the amount of UV they are exposed to.
> 
> There is a huge amount of information on paper permanence. If you 
> check the Files and Bookmarks sections there are some links.
> > 
> > Those old photos were, in general, made on rag papers that were 
> acid free to start with, and then, over time
> > they have encountered acids in the atmosphere, causing the 
> degradations.
> 
> You could see marked differences from different time periods. The 
> 1840's paper was still white but the papers from the late 1800's 
and 
> into the early 1900's were in bad shape. If it was strictly 
> environmental, then some should have been ok and others not, but 
they 
> all showed decay. It was not so much that they were yellowed but 
that 
> they had turned dark chipboard gray, which I suspect was caused by 
> the use of wood pulp in the paper. Whatever the reason it was very 
> sad to see.
> 
> > 
> > It is my feeling that if one wants long term stability (like on 
the 
> old photos) one should use rag papers,
> > which have slight amounts of buffering agents in them...hopefully 
> enough to neutralize acid atmosphere over
> > time, but not enough to degrade the inks...Unlike wood pulp 
papers 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> that achieve ph neutrality only because of
> > large amounts of buffering agents.
> 
> Rag is a good choice but like I said you can make a high quality, 
> lignin-free, pH neutral wood pulp paper that is the equal to rag.
> 
> Martin Wesley
> 
> (snip)

Paper Permanence was Re: [Digital BW] 19th Century Varnished

2001-11-16 by Martin Wesley

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Paul Roark" 
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:

(snip)

> >I still maintain that buffering has, so far, shown itself to be 
detrimental
> >to inkjet inks and also, that if
> >the paper has an acid component (using wood pulp instead of 
cotton, or
> >'rag' fibers')  the buffering agents
> >will be overwhelmed in the long run and self destruct.
> 
> I think I agree with this.  From what I've heard buffering has a 
negative
> impact on image permanence -- which may not correlate with paper 
permanence,
> of course.  Also, I think the fact that the newspaper I get tests as
> non-acid with the pen and yet self-destructs very quickly shows 
that cheap
> buffering can fool the pens (and government regulations, perhaps) 
while not
> solving the problems.

Paul,

The pH pens are a pretty straightforward chemical test and if the pen 
is good (I have gotten a bad one from Lineco) the tests give an 
accurate "Yes-Maybe-No" result. I haven't run across any newsprint 
yet that does not test acid. Acid-free paper processing is now the 
rule in the US and Europe with buffering being very common. Cheap 
paper is very much better than it used to be. If it checks okay with 
the pen it probably is. If it checks out acid with the pen it MAY or 
MAY NOT be okay.

> 
> However, I also seem to remember reading that wood pulp can be used 
to make
> good paper if the lignin is removed.  Apparently that is the acid 
reserve in
> cheap, wood-based paper.  The process by which the paper is made 
also
> appears to be critical.

I agree on both counts.

> 
> So, the question for mass-market (read inexpensive) paper might be 
whether a
> lignin-free, wood-pulp paper without buffering can be stable.  My 
reading
> indicates that is what Epson tried to do with "Archival matte."  Of 
course,
> that fact that they are changing the name may indicate that their 
latest
> research indicates the paper is not archival.  (The legal 
department must
> have been pulled into the issue only after the marketing department 
came up
> with the EAM name.)

A lignin-free, acid-free, un-buffered paper is internally stable but 
is has no protection from damaging environmental contaminates. 
> 
> >It is my feeling that if one wants long term stability
> >(like on the old photos) one should use rag papers,
> >which have slight amounts of buffering agents in them...hopefully 
enough to
> >neutralize acid atmosphere over time, ...
> 
> I think I'm going to start using EAM for display prints only (where 
image
> permanence is primary) and Museo for the old photo reproductions 
(where long
> term dark storage is the issue).

If there is a negative impact on image permanence from buffered paper 
it would be a chemical reaction and keeping it in dark storage would 
not be a protection.

Looking back at your test results, you reported that the Eclipse 
Satine equaled or beat EAM in fading and warm shifting. The Eclipse 
is a buffered paper so I don't think there is a negative connection 
between buffered papers and image permanence with carbon pigment 
inks. Dye based inks and particularly color dye inks may be a 
different story.

Martin Wesley

Paper Permanence was Re: [Digital BW] 19th Century Varnished Prints

2001-11-16 by Martin Wesley

Robert,

Thanks for the good information. We talk a lot about acid-free papers 
but the issue is much more complex than that as you point out. Your 
earlier posts on OBA's is in Files section.

Martin Wesley

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Robert Rex" 
<chameleon@i...> wrote:
> Excellent post, Martin!
> the only thing i would add is that the "amount" of buffering agents 
> tend to affect the archivalness of a paper.  Libary of Congress 
> standards indicate that they consider an archival paper to have not 
> more than 3-5% of fillers (fillers include buffering agents like 
> CaCO3, pigments like titanium dioxide or silica) by weight. (my 
> memory may be off here, but i think i posted the LoC website in an 
> earlier post and Martin bookmarked it in the Files section of this 
> list.
> Fillers are measured by the amount of ash resulting by burning the 
> paper. 
> Museo contains 2.8-3.3% filler or buffering agent (Calcium 
carbonate 
> in Museo's case; this is the most common alkaline buffering agent--
> arches, etc have used this for centuries.)  We have tested some 
> papers--internally--with an ash content as high as 10%.
> hope this helps,
> robert rex
> crane & co
> 


(snip)

Re: [Digital BW] 19th Century Varnished Prints and Other Observations

2001-11-16 by Todd Flashner

Robert

Your posts are always very informative, thanks. You've spoken in the past
about OBs and now buffering agents, do you have any think to share with us
about the effect of the paper's inkjet receptive coating on permanence? It
would be particularly helpful to be able to ascertain which papers would be
most suitable for dye inks, which for pigments, and which for hybrid blends.

Todd Flashner
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> Excellent post, Martin!
> the only thing i would add is that the "amount" of buffering agents
> tend to affect the archivalness of a paper.  Libary of Congress
> standards indicate that they consider an archival paper to have not
> more than 3-5% of fillers (fillers include buffering agents like
> CaCO3, pigments like titanium dioxide or silica) by weight. (my
> memory may be off here, but i think i posted the LoC website in an
> earlier post and Martin bookmarked it in the Files section of this
> list.
> Fillers are measured by the amount of ash resulting by burning the
> paper. 
> Museo contains 2.8-3.3% filler or buffering agent (Calcium carbonate
> in Museo's case; this is the most common alkaline buffering agent--
> arches, etc have used this for centuries.)  We have tested some
> papers--internally--with an ash content as high as 10%.
> hope this helps,
> robert rex
> crane & co

Re: [Digital BW] 19th Century Varnished Prints and Other Observations

2001-11-17 by Paul Roark

Paul Roark wrote:

>> <big snip>
>>
>> I think I'm going to start using EAM for display prints only (where image
>> permanence is primary) and Museo for the old photo reproductions (where
long
>> term dark storage is the issue).
>>
>



Harvey Ferdschneider wrote:

>Shouldn't the Museo cover both issues?

Not for me.  The Museo doesn't print well in the 3000 -- blotchy.  I have no
idea why it looks worse in that printer than the 1160.  Anyway, I prefer the
EAM smooth surface.

Also, the Museo black is only about 97% of EAM's.

Finally, in my fade tests, while the Museo was in the ballpark at the 50%
spot, the 90% patch faded more than twice as much as that of the EAM 90%
patch.

Paul

Re: [Digital BW] Varnished Prints

2001-11-17 by Bruce Kinch

I vaguely recall reading/hearing that Paul Strand preferred waxing 
his prints. I understand Renaissance Wax or even Butcher's wax works 
very nicely on matte-finish silver or platinum prints. Has anyone 
tried it on inkjet or piezo? As an alternative to sprays or varnish?
--

Re: [Digital BW] Varnished Prints

2001-11-17 by jeffm@gis.net

Bruce Kinch wrote:
> 
> I vaguely recall reading/hearing that Paul Strand preferred waxing
> his prints. I understand Renaissance Wax or even Butcher's wax works
> very nicely on matte-finish silver or platinum prints. Has anyone
> tried it on inkjet or piezo? As an alternative to sprays or varnish?

Hi Bruce;

Nice to bump in to you on the list! Making the leap in to the digital realm?

A friend of mine finishes her B&W hand colored silver prints with a coat
of Renaissance wax. She does this to give to prints an extra layer of
protection and to also give the prints an even luster finish rather than
the somewhat blotchy finish that the areas of oil coloring leave. 

Inspired by her, I tried applying Renaissance wax to a quadtone inkjet
print I had made on Epson archival matte paper. It made a mess...
leaving a milky veil to the image. I think that inkjet "art" papers are
just to porous and the wax integrates in to the paper rather than just
sitting on the surface the way it does on a traditional silver print.
I'm guessing that the wax would work well on an RC type inkjet paper..
but I don't think that is what people are trying to achieve here.

- Jeff Magidson

Re: [Digital BW] Varnished Prints

2001-11-17 by SKID Photography

Bruce Kinch wrote:

> I vaguely recall reading/hearing that Paul Strand preferred waxing
> his prints. I understand Renaissance Wax or even Butcher's wax works
> very nicely on matte-finish silver or platinum prints. Has anyone
> tried it on inkjet or piezo? As an alternative to sprays or varnish?
>

We tried waxing one of our images with 'Butchers Wax' (the amber kind...had it for something else) and it took
several coats to get it even.  It was interesting, but the change not dramatic or seemingly worth the effort.

It was on a monochromatic image, that we (on purpose) gave a (forest) green tint to, using OEM inks on the
Epson 2000P, on the Epson Archival Matte paper.

Harvey Ferdschneider
partner, SKID Photography, NYC





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Varnished Prints

2001-11-17 by Mark Tucker

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., SKID Photography 
<skid@b...> wrote:
> We tried waxing one of our images with 'Butchers Wax' (the 
amber kind...


I've also tried waxing prints with some kind of "block of wax", I 
think it was beeswax, that I got from this multiple-piercing 
salesman girl at our local art supply house.

I don't really know what to say about it -- there was something 
about the coarseness of the grain of the ESFA that made the wax 
go onto the paper in this pretty inconsistent manner, which to 
me, was nice. I went over the wax with some oil medium that 
was tinted with a very slight amount of oil pigment (brown). The 
inconsistent pattern was interesting, as they say. I'm not sure 
interesting-good, or interesting-bad. I think you'd just have to play 
around with it A LOT, or have someone there who was 
experienced in oil painting technique.

I'd just hold the block of wax in my hand -- think gigantic bar of 
soap -- and rub the side of the block onto the surface of the 
paper. You could build it up as thick as you'd want. But, like 
someone else said, too much and it really began to kill the 
blacks -- turned into too much of a milky look.

I honestly don't think I even scratched the surface in all that. I 
think it was just overtaking the studio, with half-dry prints lying 
around everywhere, and the smell of oil/terpentine, etc. It does 
NOT make you the most popular person in the building when 
you're doing all this. 

But I do think there's much more that can be explored. Hopefully 
Robert M will come to the scene pretty soon with his product. And 
hopefully it won't yellow, like most of the materials I worked with 
did.

-Mark Tucker

Re: Varnished Prints

2001-11-18 by Martin Wesley

Don,

I have coated a few color prints from an Epson 1270 using the OEM dye 
inks. I used a waterbased acrylic varnish system by Golden. The Epson 
dye inks are not water proof and I had to prespray the prints with 
Krylon spray to fix them prior to applying the varnish.

How were you applying the Damar varnish? Spray or brush or ?

The inks may have reacted to the solvent in the varnish or if the 
inks were not completely dry that could cause problems.

Martin


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., the Don <don_eby@y...> 
wrote:
> Hi Everyone, 
> 
> I used a matte Damar varnish on a print with epson dye inks. It 
dried
> down and left a coat of white powdery stuff that covered the print. 
Now
> I can barely see the ink! Any idea what I did wrong? Should I be 
using
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> the gloss varnish, or maybe I used too much? Any insight would be
> greatly appreciated.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Don Eby
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Find the one for you at Yahoo! Personals
> http://personals.yahoo.com

Re: [Digital BW] Varnished Prints

2001-11-18 by Martin Wesley

Bruce,

Quite a bit of experimentation has been done with a variety of 
coatings and varnishes on piezo prints. If you check the "Files" 
section you will find my reports on my own coating trials.

Also search this group and the Piezo group on the subject of coating 
and varnishing. A lot of information has been posted by Bob Tyson, 
Robert Morrison and Mark Romine. Robert is working on bringing a 
commercial inkjet varnish to market.

If you give varnishing a try, let us know how it goes.

Martin Wesley

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Bruce Kinch <pvx@m...> 
wrote:
> I vaguely recall reading/hearing that Paul Strand preferred waxing 
> his prints. I understand Renaissance Wax or even Butcher's wax 
works 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> very nicely on matte-finish silver or platinum prints. Has anyone 
> tried it on inkjet or piezo? As an alternative to sprays or varnish?
> --

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Varnished Prints

2001-11-18 by the Don

Martin,

I was using a spray varnish. That can of varnish has mysterously
disappeared, and I bought a can of Krylon's Kamar Varnish and tested it
on a couple of prints. it seemed to work how I expected and did not
react negatively. Is this the Krylon spray you were referring to, or
was there something else that you were using befor the acrylic varnish?

Don

--- Martin Wesley wrote:
> Don,
> 
> I have coated a few color prints from an Epson 1270 using the OEM dye
> 
> inks. I used a waterbased acrylic varnish system by Golden. The Epson
> 
> dye inks are not water proof and I had to prespray the prints with 
> Krylon spray to fix them prior to applying the varnish.
> 
> How were you applying the Damar varnish? Spray or brush or ?
> 
> The inks may have reacted to the solvent in the varnish or if the 
> inks were not completely dry that could cause problems.
> 
> Martin


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Re: Varnished Prints

2001-11-19 by Martin Wesley

Don,

I used the Krylon "Crystal Clear"  acrylic spray. Over this I applied 
acrylic Golden Paints medium and then Golden varnish with a brush.

Martin

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., the Don <don_eby@y...> 
wrote:
> Martin,
> 
> I was using a spray varnish. That can of varnish has mysterously
> disappeared, and I bought a can of Krylon's Kamar Varnish and 
tested it
> on a couple of prints. it seemed to work how I expected and did not
> react negatively. Is this the Krylon spray you were referring to, or
> was there something else that you were using befor the acrylic 
varnish?
> 
> Don
> 
> --- Martin Wesley wrote:
> > Don,
> > 
> > I have coated a few color prints from an Epson 1270 using the OEM 
dye
> > 
> > inks. I used a waterbased acrylic varnish system by Golden. The 
Epson
> > 
> > dye inks are not water proof and I had to prespray the prints 
with 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> > Krylon spray to fix them prior to applying the varnish.
> > 
> > How were you applying the Damar varnish? Spray or brush or ?
> > 
> > The inks may have reacted to the solvent in the varnish or if the 
> > inks were not completely dry that could cause problems.
> > 
> > Martin
> 
> 
> __________________________________________________
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> Find the one for you at Yahoo! Personals
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Re: [Digital BW] Varnished Prints

2001-11-19 by Robert Morrison

On 11/17/01 11:50 AM, "Mark Tucker" <mtucker508@...> wrote:

> But I do think there's much more that can be explored. Hopefully
> Robert M will come to the scene pretty soon with his product. And
> hopefully it won't yellow, like most of the materials I worked with
> did.

Working on it...the coating doesn't yellow like Damar or Wax...but it will
warm BW prints slightly...there's no getting around this...there is no such
thing as a perfectly clear coating.

Robert

----------------------
Robert Morrison
rmorrison@...

310-397-2704

4131 Bledsoe Ave.
Los Angeles, CA 90066

Re: [Digital BW] 19th Century Varnished Prints and Other Observations

2001-11-19 by Robert Rex

Todd,
IMHO, permanence of a print should relate to the archivalness of the 
paper AND the archivalness of the ink/coating combination.  
At this point i have not seen any data on the effect of OBA's and 
fillers on coating/ink combinations.  Whereas i think their effect, 
and the effet of wood vs. cotton, on paper permanence is fairly well 
documented.
I have seen plenty of data on coating/ink combination and their 
effect on permanence.  
Uncoated papers (like Arches CP/HP, Fabriano, Rives BFK, and 
Somerset) seem to have better light stability with dye based inks.  
these papers usually are sized with gelatin, starch, PVA, etc.  It 
also seems that papers using a swellable polymer seem to offer better 
light stability with dye-based inks.
regarding pigment based inks, to obtain a similar gamut that would be 
achievable with a dye based ink, you would definitely need to utilize 
a coated sheet.  I have printed an Oce watercolor sheet on our 2000P 
here in the office and was not as impressed as printing our ETFA, 
Museo, Hahnemuhle or Somerset E. papers.  These coatings usually 
include different types of pigments and chemicals--the formulae of 
each paper are different--which enable the pigment of the ink to 
adhere to more to the surface of the substrate (instead of wicking 
into the paper.
i hope this helps somewhat (for further questions, please contact me 
off-list)
thanks for your attention,
robert rex
crane & co

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Todd Flashner <tflash@e...> 
wrote:
> Robert
> 
> Your posts are always very informative, thanks. You've spoken in 
the past
> about OBs and now buffering agents, do you have any think to share 
with us
> about the effect of the paper's inkjet receptive coating on 
permanence? It
> would be particularly helpful to be able to ascertain which papers 
would be
> most suitable for dye inks, which for pigments, and which for 
hybrid blends.
> 
> Todd Flashner
> 
> > Excellent post, Martin!
> > the only thing i would add is that the "amount" of buffering 
agents
> > tend to affect the archivalness of a paper.  Libary of Congress
> > standards indicate that they consider an archival paper to have 
not
> > more than 3-5% of fillers (fillers include buffering agents like
> > CaCO3, pigments like titanium dioxide or silica) by weight. (my
> > memory may be off here, but i think i posted the LoC website in an
> > earlier post and Martin bookmarked it in the Files section of this
> > list.
> > Fillers are measured by the amount of ash resulting by burning the
> > paper. 
> > Museo contains 2.8-3.3% filler or buffering agent (Calcium 
carbonate
> > in Museo's case; this is the most common alkaline buffering 
agent--
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> > arches, etc have used this for centuries.)  We have tested some
> > papers--internally--with an ash content as high as 10%.
> > hope this helps,
> > robert rex
> > crane & co

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