Digital BW, The Print

Thanks Alan, yes it is true I have thought of scanning a negative bigger
than its actual size - this gives a rather good looking black frame, but it
was on a cheap Epson flatbed with  flimpsy plastic carrier.

I will soon get a Polaroid 120 or Minolta Pro and I guess they just won\ufffdt
let this option - I could still try out the layer blending option, I had
thought out this way, just hadn\ufffdt thought it to an end.

Mark, maybe your answers were more joking than serious, but I don\ufffdt really
understand your point here: "fake" - border or not fake. If you are really a
purist, I guess you really should *never ever* touch the Photoshop curve
tool or transform a colour neg into b&w. But talking of Henri CB, in a
documentary I recently saw about the man, they were preparing his
photographs for a book.... on a *PowerMac* that came straight from hell.
and - beware - the guy was using the masking tool he was enhancing things
like tones, contrast - you could well see the photoshop interface etc. HCB
was standing next to him - so don\ufffdt overdo....

Photography - specially b&w is an illusion itself - the world is different
than b&w - and the whte space around the photograph as much as the black
border give it its weight and balance it on the white surface - the photo is
the photo, the black frame and the white space is what the photographer
adds - so what?
And what about the thin straight and cold photoshop line? Straight from hell
too...

greetings from Bernhard who agrees to go to photo hell if they give him his
darkroom frame in his lifetime ...



----- Original Message -----

From: "Sanders-Herring" <alaneileen@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, November 24, 2001 5:20 AM
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: black print border
>
> Bernard,
> If you're willing to tempt the Photo
> Gods(ignoring Mark's warning) and come over to
> the Dark Side as I have, here's what works for
> me.
> Like you, I've always liked the rough edge you
> can in the darkroom. It seems like the ones I've
> seen from the plug-ins look contrived and
> unnatural. What I did was scanned a silver print
> with an edge that I liked. Then in PhotoShop I
> dragged my new image onto the one with the good
> edge, sized it to fit and blended the two with a
> layer mask. Simple and easy.
> I recently had a few prints in a group show at a
> local gallery that used this technique. Everyone
> assumed they were silver prints. (OK, Mark, so
> maybe I won't get into Photo Purist Heaven, but
> do I get points for still using Tri-X? )
>
> Alan
>

Some Discussion on this point took place a few weeks ago on this forum under the thread: 

"Sloppy..." do a search of past threads in archive if you want to read more views.

Steadman 

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Bernie Ess 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Saturday, November 24, 2001 3:00 AM
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: black print border and photographers hell


  Thanks Alan, yes it is true I have thought of scanning a negative bigger
  than its actual size - this gives a rather good looking black frame, but it
  was on a cheap Epson flatbed with  flimpsy plastic carrier.

  I will soon get a Polaroid 120 or Minolta Pro and I guess they just won´t
  let this option - I could still try out the layer blending option, I had
  thought out this way, just hadn´t thought it to an end.

  Mark, maybe your answers were more joking than serious, but I don´t really
  understand your point here: "fake" - border or not fake. If you are really a
  purist, I guess you really should *never ever* touch the Photoshop curve
  tool or transform a colour neg into b&w. But talking of Henri CB, in a
  documentary I recently saw about the man, they were preparing his
  photographs for a book.... on a *PowerMac* that came straight from hell.
  and - beware - the guy was using the masking tool he was enhancing things
  like tones, contrast - you could well see the photoshop interface etc. HCB
  was standing next to him - so don´t overdo....

  Photography - specially b&w is an illusion itself - the world is different
  than b&w - and the whte space around the photograph as much as the black
  border give it its weight and balance it on the white surface - the photo is
  the photo, the black frame and the white space is what the photographer
  adds - so what?
  And what about the thin straight and cold photoshop line? Straight from hell
  too...

  greetings from Bernhard who agrees to go to photo hell if they give him his
  darkroom frame in his lifetime ...



  ----- Original Message -----
  From: "Sanders-Herring" <alaneileen@...m>
  To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
  Sent: Saturday, November 24, 2001 5:20 AM
  Subject: [Digital BW] Re: black print border
  >
  > Bernard,
  > If you're willing to tempt the Photo
  > Gods(ignoring Mark's warning) and come over to
  > the Dark Side as I have, here's what works for
  > me.
  > Like you, I've always liked the rough edge you
  > can in the darkroom. It seems like the ones I've
  > seen from the plug-ins look contrived and
  > unnatural. What I did was scanned a silver print
  > with an edge that I liked. Then in PhotoShop I
  > dragged my new image onto the one with the good
  > edge, sized it to fit and blended the two with a
  > layer mask. Simple and easy.
  > I recently had a few prints in a group show at a
  > local gallery that used this technique. Everyone
  > assumed they were silver prints. (OK, Mark, so
  > maybe I won't get into Photo Purist Heaven, but
  > do I get points for still using Tri-X? )
  >
  > Alan
  >



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Bernie Ess" 
<albatros.bee@w...> wrote:
the guy was using the masking tool he was enhancing things
> like tones, contrast - you could well see the photoshop 
interface etc. HCB
> was standing next to him - so don´t overdo....


Oh...My...God........The horror. 

If HCB was there with his PowerMac, then I guess we have the 
definite, ultimate endorsement of the digital age.

I *was* kidding (somewhat). But not really. Obviously, it's a free 
country, but there's this kitschy-factor about those software 
programs. I probably am some old 
stick-in-the-mud-wannabe-purist, so I don't want to say yes to 
these newfangled sissy programs. What will be next, if we start 
buying fake-border software? I just say: Friends Don't Let 
Friends Buy Cheesy Software. This is my version of Tough Love.

But, hey, have at it. This is America.

I'm sick of seeing the 'fake' polaroid border on everything from department
store advertising to real estate propaganda. Point being, if people are
saturated everyday with the borders offered in those packages then why would
you want to use them with your lovely original and thoughtful photography?

I do like borders on some of my images, actually more like masks of the
image edges to give it a non linear appearance. But I create my own.

Carolyn

> Does anyone know a plug- in or another way to
> imitate/emulate 
> the slightly irregular black border that is
> tyoically around black
> and white prints that come out of the darkroom?

Hey Mark I know what you mean, and certainly I don\ufffdt like adding
kitschy-factors to my photos either, but to be honest, I cannot really see
kitsch about a simple black and slightly irregular border. I don\ufffdt talk
about curled, flower- shaped sh**, just these 4 black lines. I don\ufffdt like
photos without the border, but the thin, technical one isn\ufffdt to pleasing to
my eyes either.

But well its probably not really worth a fundamental discussion. Maybe after
23 black "darkroom style" borders I am getting sick of it. So what.... then
I will have enjoyed 22 nice fake borders.

BTW, it was not HCBs own Mac, but the guy\ufffds who was working in the
publishing house. By the way HCB has a lot of humour.

cheers,
Bernhard

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Tucker" <mark@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, November 24, 2001 7:18 PM
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: black print border and photographers hell


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Bernie Ess"
<albatros.bee@w...> wrote:
the guy was using the masking tool he was enhancing things
> like tones, contrast - you could well see the photoshop
interface etc. HCB
> was standing next to him - so don\ufffdt overdo....


Oh...My...God........The horror.

If HCB was there with his PowerMac, then I guess we have the
definite, ultimate endorsement of the digital age.

I *was* kidding (somewhat). But not really. Obviously, it's a free
country, but there's this kitschy-factor about those software
programs. I probably am some old
stick-in-the-mud-wannabe-purist, so I don't want to say yes to
these newfangled sissy programs.

I use black borders flatbed scanned from my original wet darkroom 
prints.  These are characteristically my borders (I hand filed the 
carriers myself).  I like to use them even though it means dropping a 
scanned image on top of a chosen border in photoshop.  I have no 
problem with this and I have no desire to use framing software.

BTW, One of HCB's most famous images, Behind the Gare St..-Lazare, 
Paris. 1932, is a heavily cropped image. (You know the one with the man 
jumping over a puddle). It originally was a horizontal shot through a 
picket fence with the slats blurrily visible in the frame.  He always 
exhibits it as a vertical with the slats cropped out.  I can't remember 
if he puts a fake black border around it.

Frank

http://www.culturalvisons.com



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Bernie Ess" <
albatros.bee@w...> wrote:
> Hey Mark I know what you mean, and certainly I don´t like adding
> kitschy-factors to my photos either, but to be honest, I cannot really se=
e
> kitsch about a simple black and slightly irregular border. I don´t talk
> about curled, flower- shaped sh**, just these 4 black lines. I don´t like=

> photos without the border, but the thin, technical one isn´t to pleasing =
to
> my eyes either.
> 
> But well its probably not really worth a fundamental discussion. Maybe af=
ter
> 23 black "darkroom style" borders I am getting sick of it. So what.... th=
en

> I will have enjoyed 22 nice fake borders.
> 
> BTW, it was not HCBs own Mac, but the guy´s who was working in the
> publishing house. By the way HCB has a lot of humour.
> 
> cheers,
> Bernhard
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Mark Tucker" <mark@m...>
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...>
> Sent: Saturday, November 24, 2001 7:18 PM
> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: black print border and photographers hell
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Bernie Ess"
> <albatros.bee@w...> wrote:
> the guy was using the masking tool he was enhancing things
> > like tones, contrast - you could well see the photoshop
> interface etc. HCB
> > was standing next to him - so don´t overdo....
> 
> 
> Oh...My...God........The horror.
> 
> If HCB was there with his PowerMac, then I guess we have the
> definite, ultimate endorsement of the digital age.
> 
> I *was* kidding (somewhat). But not really. Obviously, it's a free
> country, but there's this kitschy-factor about those software
> programs. I probably am some old
> stick-in-the-mud-wannabe-purist, so I don't want to say yes to
> these newfangled sissy programs.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Carolyn  Frayn 
<carolyn@u...> wrote:
> I'm sick of seeing the 'fake' polaroid border on everything from 
department
> store advertising to real estate propaganda.


Carolyn,

Yes, yes. I'm shooting a three-day job this coming week, and the 
PDFs of the layouts that arrived showed an e6-like black border 
around the photographs, but with the name of the client stripped 
into the black borders, where the normal "Kodak" or "Ilford" and 
frame numbers would normally be!

I almost turned down the job, based on that alone! The Design 
Police should pay a call to the designer that comped that up.

With this fresh on my mind, maybe that's why I'm so hard on 
Bernie with this issue.

-MT

Mark wrote:
> Yes, yes. I'm shooting a three-day job this coming week, and the
> PDFs of the layouts that arrived showed an e6-like black border
> around the photographs, but with the name of the client stripped
> into the black borders, where the normal "Kodak" or "Ilford" and
> frame numbers would normally be!

Yep, that's the stuff that drives me nuts... that and drop shadows on every
single little thing. Not everything can be an absolut vodka ad I guess, but
I think they should strive for that originality.

> I almost turned down the job, based on that alone! The Design
> Police should pay a call to the designer that comped that up.

Being both designer and photog (amature as I am) I am probably much too
pickey when looking thru magazines etc but there really seems to be a lack
of originality lately. Mind you when you see something original it does get
you, but then it's copied until it is done to death... like the above.

> With this fresh on my mind, maybe that's why I'm so hard on
> Bernie with this issue.

It seems to me that photographers would want personal, unique additions to
their images... or none at all.  In my photo-illustrations  I use my own
stuff, textures etc, nothing canned, or filtered... no clip art. I can't
stand clip art.  It's just a personal thing.

Carolyn