Digital BW, The Print

photobrusher wrote:
> This forums' design is so difficult for newcomers like me to
> negotiate and I wish the webmaster would do something about it.

Photobrusher, perhaps you have not recognised that this is not a 'web forum'. It
is a 'mailing list', a form that many people (including me) find works very well
indeed. Try searching Google for 'mailing list primer' and do some reading.

> For example why does it have to be a big rassling match to read a
> complete thread? You go to a subject and instead of follow ups right
> below the initial submission there's nothing to direct you to them.
> If you submit a reply, it simply vanishes!

If you receive message via email, and set up your email program correctly,
you'll get what you are asking for. I have set my email program to automatically
file all messages to this list into a folder, and to group the messages by
subject.

> Then when you finally get to the next thread in your face you get an
> animated advertisement and a question asking you if you want to go
> the next thread!

Try getting the messages by email.

>  Yeah, so I'm old and plenty cranky. I tell it like I see it. What I
> see here is a forum that frustrates as much as it informs. A forum
> should attract readers, not drive them away.

I'm one reader who has been been attracted to this list since it started. I'm
middle-aged and cranky, and I'm telling it like _I_ see it.

I suggest you learn how to use a mailing list, so you can (as I do) enjoy the
company of the well-informed and helpful people who post here.


Peter Marquis-Kyle
www.marquis-kyle.com.au

Well I'll be damned! I finally got something I wrote posted on this 
site, and even got a reply! 

Mincing words, aren't you Peter? You're saying this isn't a "forum?" 
Well, now, here we really do have a failure to communicate because 
you are mixing red herrings into this.  (Say, do you work for the 
government?) Of course it is a forum and you can look it up. "Forum: 
public meeting place for open discussion."  This site is open to 
anyone who wants to read it, is it not? Anyone can join the group, 
right? Spare me the lame hair-splitting.

The fact remains this site has been poorly planned. It suffers from 
having no intuitive common sense. Your statement about it really 
being a "mailing list" is meaningless. I've participated in 
enough "forums" to recognize when one is disfunctional because of 
redundant rules. Please don't twist my displeasure into a criticism 
of the people in the group because it has nothing to do with them.  

All I am asking for are clear and simple directions on how to join 
and participate in the group, without having to wade through a lot 
of horseshipping artifacts! (Jesus, this is my third attempt to post 
a reply and I still am not certain how I accomplished it.) No one 
should have to go to another site just to learn how to post replies 
in the first place. 

 
With luck maybe whoever runs this forum will get the message and 
realize maybe...just maybe, my complaints warrant attention and some 
much needed streamlining are in order. (Or, maybe not.)

And, like Forrest Gump, that's all I am going to say about that!

Sorry you are having such a bad day. 

The forum sucks and MIS hosed your 2200 carts.  Man, stay away from power
tools today!!

(CAUTION: Do not operate a motor vehicle after reading this list) <GGG>

Seth 

==-----Original Message-----
==From: photobrusher [mailto:photobrusher@...] 
==
==
==Well I'll be damned! I finally got something I wrote posted 
==on this site, and even got a reply! 
==
==Mincing words, aren't you Peter? You're saying this isn't a "forum?" 
==Well, now, here we really do have a failure to communicate 
==because you are mixing red herrings into this.  (Say, do you 
==work for the
==government?) Of course it is a forum and you can look it up. "Forum: 
==public meeting place for open discussion."  This site is open 
==to anyone who wants to read it, is it not? Anyone can join 
==the group, right? Spare me the lame hair-splitting.
==
==The fact remains this site has been poorly planned. It 
==suffers from having no intuitive common sense. Your statement 
==about it really being a "mailing list" is meaningless. I've 
==participated in enough "forums" to recognize when one is 
==disfunctional because of redundant rules. Please don't twist 
==my displeasure into a criticism of the people in the group 
==because it has nothing to do with them.  
==

==-----Original Message-----
==From: photobrusher [mailto:photobrusher@...] 
==
==Mincing words, aren't you Peter? You're saying this isn't a "forum?" 
==Well, now, here we really do have a failure to communicate 
==because you are mixing red herrings into this.  (Say, do you 
==work for the
==government?) Of course it is a forum and you can look it up. "Forum: 
==public meeting place for open discussion."  This site is open 
==to anyone who wants to read it, is it not? Anyone can join 
==the group, right? Spare me the lame hair-splitting.

Another candidate for my Blocked Sender's List?

==
==All I am asking for are clear and simple directions on how to 
==join and participate in the group, without having to wade 
==through a lot of horseshipping artifacts! (Jesus, this is my 
==third attempt to post a reply and I still am not certain how 
==I accomplished it.) No one should have to go to another site 
==just to learn how to post replies in the first place. 
==

THAT is why the unsubscribe is attached.  If you are dissatisfied,
well........

== 
==With luck maybe whoever runs this forum will get the message 
==and realize maybe...just maybe, my complaints warrant 
==attention and some much needed streamlining are in order. 
==(Or, maybe not.)
==

It is totally up to yahoogroups.com unlike the 'old' maillists that proliferated in the net.  To most of us, a forum (and we probably are splitting hairs) is one that is totally net based---no maillist.  This is really a maillist with 'sort of like' forum, but I bet few visit there to read and rely on the posts to keep up with the group.  


I believe there is a FAQ that will explain how to join, post, etc.  

Diane

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: photobrusher 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Sunday, March 20, 2005 9:48 AM
  Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Will this forum ever get streamlined?



  Well I'll be damned! I finally got something I wrote posted on this 
  site, and even got a reply! 

  Mincing words, aren't you Peter? You're saying this isn't a "forum?" 
  Well, now, here we really do have a failure to communicate because 
  you are mixing red herrings into this.  (Say, do you work for the 
  government?) Of course it is a forum and you can look it up. "Forum: 
  public meeting place for open discussion."  This site is open to 
  anyone who wants to read it, is it not? Anyone can join the group, 
  right? Spare me the lame hair-splitting.

  The fact remains this site has been poorly planned. It suffers from 
  having no intuitive common sense. Your statement about it really 
  being a "mailing list" is meaningless. I've participated in 
  enough "forums" to recognize when one is disfunctional because of 
  redundant rules. Please don't twist my displeasure into a criticism 
  of the people in the group because it has nothing to do with them.  

  All I am asking for are clear and simple directions on how to join 
  and participate in the group, without having to wade through a lot 
  of horseshipping artifacts! (Jesus, this is my third attempt to post 
  a reply and I still am not certain how I accomplished it.) No one 
  should have to go to another site just to learn how to post replies 
  in the first place. 


  With luck maybe whoever runs this forum will get the message and 
  realize maybe...just maybe, my complaints warrant attention and some 
  much needed streamlining are in order. (Or, maybe not.)

  And, like Forrest Gump, that's all I am going to say about that! 






  Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as they are often being updated.

  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

  If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page.

  Please follow these basic guidelines:
  - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
  - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the membership without notice.
  - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from the membership.
  - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files section:
  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/

  BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.



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    a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
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    DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      
    c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I agree---and I think I just replied to Photobrusher without clipping it--though I normally do.  I hate it when I get it in replies to replies to replies--with it included in each one.  But---I enjoy the list so try to just overlook it.

Diane
  THE PITA is those who reply without chopping that off the original message;
  or, those that reply below all the garbage.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I have a linux server running on a dedicated 2mbit connection and would 
be more than happy to provide free hosting for a DigitalBW BBS. What I 
don't have is a lot of time. I would want somebody to take 
responsibility of actually administering the BBS.

I have thought about this before, and setting up the BBS is the easy 
part. The hard part is importing the full archive, maintain the mailing 
list functionality, and importing all the previously registered users. 
I'm not even sure if something like that would be possible. I doubt 
Yahoo makes this information easily available.

I'm almost positive that setting up a new mailing list and BBS, 
requiring every user to register again, would meet a lot of resistance 
and die a not so slow death.

Photobrusher is right about the Yahoo web interface though. It really 
sucks big time. Searching through the archives is a joke. There's a lot 
of very good information hidden in the archives, but when nobody can 
find it we end up with the same questions repeated over and over again.

At some point Yahoo reduced the usability of the search a whole lot. Now 
you have to navigate through endless empty pages with a few search 
results scattered here and there. It must be one of the worst search 
implementations I have ever seen.

A good BBS would give us some advantages:

- We would be able to split the list into separate topics. Topics like 
'MIS inks', 'Printer problems', 'Scanning', 'QTR support' etc... come to 
mind.

- We would have a searchable archive of every post every made grouped 
into the thread each message belongs to.

- We could make certain threads 'Sticky' which would make them always 
stay on top above other new messasges. This could be posts or threads 
containing particularly useful information.

- We would be able to upload iamge and file attachments to the messages.

I doubt something like this will happen though (for the reasons 
mentioned above).

And I think the mailing list functions really well when you subscribe to 
it. In Thunderbird I get a threaded view of the list, can quickly 
navigate through new messages and easily search through the archive. I 
only wish I could import all messages posted before I started to 
subscribe so I could have the entire archive. I already have two years 
of postings though, so it's not too bad.

--
Daniel Staver
http://daniel.staver.no


What

> ALL Yahoo forums are the same?  I am guessing you are new to this.  There is
> no customization.  All of that "junk" at the bottom comes on every message
> from every Yahoo group I receive.
> 
> THE PITA is those who reply without chopping that off the original message;
> or, those that reply below all the garbage.
> 
> HOWEVER, using a dedicated server a wholly controlled BBS could be put up.
> But, it takes DONATIONS,  more time and attention, maintenance, etc.  Who
> would do all that?
> 
> If you have all the messages just sent to your e-mail address, it is much
> more organ ized and controllable.  I think that is what most of us do.

Is it clunky?  Yes.  Is it a forum?  No, not in the internet sense of the word.  A forum in the 
internet sense of the word means something like photo.net or fredmiranda.com.  But 
that's neither here nor there.

I don't think you recognize the quantity of time and effort it takes to organize moderation.  
It is rediculous.  Do your reading on your printer, do the reading on RIPs, get familiar with 
photoshop, essentially do your homework and once you have a basic understanding of 
what you are doing with B&W printing and the terms used, you are going to be able to 
filter out all the irrelevant messages.

As per what I do, I subscribe to the digest so as to not fill my inbox, then I just read the 
headers from the digest, and if I'm really interested I read through the yahoo interface.

The only suggestion I have is if one replies to an email and is not quoting a line directly 
from it, please delete all the chatter below.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Daniel Staver <daniel@p...> wrote:
> Searching through the archives is a joke. There's a lot 
> of very good information hidden in the archives, but when nobody can 
> find it we end up with the same questions repeated over and over again.
> 
> At some point Yahoo reduced the usability of the search a whole lot. Now 
> you have to navigate through endless empty pages with a few search 
> results scattered here and there. It must be one of the worst search 
> implementations I have ever seen.

I've never been able to understand that. Yahoo is s search engine company, it's their very core. Why do their forums have one of the worst search engines I've ever seen?

OK, done venting.

Ciao!

Joe

> -----Original Message-----
> From: photobrusher [mailto:photobrusher@...]
> Sent: 20 March 2005 14:48
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Will this forum ever get streamlined?
> 
> 
> 
> Well I'll be damned! I finally got something I wrote posted on this
> site, and even got a reply!

Well now, that's your problem old fruit so I would look to your system in
order to correct that issue.

Frankly I think you are talking a load of old cobblers anyway.
This group works in exactly the same way as any other group that I belong to
and at the last count that was 15.

There is noting wrong with the way it operates so I would suggest that the
problem is YOU.

So go sort yourself out then come back and start talking about the subject
heading which I believe goes along the lines of
"DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint", or is the text too small for you to
read....my, my, my.

Richard




---
[This E-mail has been scanned for viruses but it is your responsibility 
to maintain up to date anti virus software on the device that you are
currently using to read this email. ]

Well Forest Chump, you've get an air bubble where your understanding
should be.

It's a MAILING LIST not a forum. (This has been explained to you
before and your long experience not withstanding, your failure/refusal
to understand it explains much of your frustration. The dictionary
definition of forum you offer is what is lame-it's a general
definition of the concept of a forum, not a description of what an
online forum is, as compared to a mailing list.)

There's no webmaster or some who is even listening to you. You are
just whining to all the other users instead of posting on a useful topic.

It's a Yahoo group, there are thousands and they all work the same way.

Yahoo will not reprogram this particular one to suit your needs.

I too dislike the sloppy postings that don't clip the garbage off the
end.  But like all of us here, you have only two choices-adapt or leave.

If you want to complain, complain directly to YAHOO.

And, if you did that, it WOULD streamline this list.





--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "photobrusher"
<photobrusher@y...> wrote:
//SNIP//

> 
> And, like Forrest Gump, that's all I am going to say about that!

I have been reading this group for a couple of years now and have 
been much impressed by the dedication of many of the expert regulars 
who often politely answer seemingly daft and naive questions from 
novices such as myself. More often than not my questions would have 
been answered many times in the past on a monotonously regular basis 
and understandibly the answers given to my questions might be less 
than comprehensive. The only mitigation I have to some of my 
ignorance is that it is difficult to search the site.
One answer might be if that some kind soul who recognises that a 
certain thread has satisfactorily thrashed out an issue, were to 
post a summary in the Files section. Future questioners on that 
topic could then be directed to that file.
As an example of my frustration - I have recently bought IJC/OPM in 
favour of QTR simply because of all the confusion of newbies as to 
what to download, where to find the instructions and how to get an 
overview - these are questions which have been answered many times 
in this group, but I am still none the wiser as I have faied to 
collate all the disjointed snippets which are spread over many many 
posts. On the other hand Louis Dina put some excellent information 
on IJC in the files which was the clincher for me. 
Sorry that I have rambled, but the use of the Files section would be 
beneficial to all I think.

I agree that this site is very good. One can get an
overview on what printer setup has the least
trouble,the best d-max.Francis Ford
--- yah_group <david@...> wrote:
> 
> I have been reading this group for a couple of years
> now and have 
> been much impressed by the dedication of many of the
> expert regulars 
> who often politely answer seemingly daft and naive
> questions from 
> novices such as myself. More often than not my
> questions would have 
> been answered many times in the past on a
> monotonously regular basis 
> and understandibly the answers given to my questions
> might be less 
> than comprehensive. The only mitigation I have to
> some of my 
> ignorance is that it is difficult to search the
> site.
> One answer might be if that some kind soul who
> recognises that a 
> certain thread has satisfactorily thrashed out an
> issue, were to 
> post a summary in the Files section. Future
> questioners on that 
> topic could then be directed to that file.
> As an example of my frustration - I have recently
> bought IJC/OPM in 
> favour of QTR simply because of all the confusion of
> newbies as to 
> what to download, where to find the instructions and
> how to get an 
> overview - these are questions which have been
> answered many times 
> in this group, but I am still none the wiser as I
> have faied to 
> collate all the disjointed snippets which are spread
> over many many 
> posts. On the other hand Louis Dina put some
> excellent information 
> on IJC in the files which was the clincher for me. 
> Sorry that I have rambled, but the use of the Files
> section would be 
> beneficial to all I think.
> 
> 
> 
> 


		
__________________________________ 
Do you Yahoo!? 
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http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail

I agree.  I looked at the files first when I resubbed to the list this time.  There wasn't too much to help but through a search I actually found a very good synopsis of how to use QTR in more or less 'soft proof' mode written by Lou Dina I believe.  I copied it for my own use and it would be a good candidate for the files.The other thing I copied (and I've printed out both) is the help from Roy Harrington's page for the same usage.  These have been helpful to me, but I bet something along the lines of how to actually use QTR for the beginner would be a good addition to the file--something similar to Lou's very short and sweet directions for proofing.

Diane
-----------
Diane B. Fields
picnic@...
photo site  http://www.pbase.com/picnic

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: yah_group 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Monday, March 21, 2005 4:17 AM
  Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Will this forum ever get streamlined?



  I have been reading this group for a couple of years now and have 
  been much impressed by the dedication of many of the expert regulars 
  who often politely answer seemingly daft and naive questions from 
  novices such as myself. More often than not my questions would have 
  been answered many times in the past on a monotonously regular basis 
  and understandibly the answers given to my questions might be less 
  than comprehensive. The only mitigation I have to some of my 
  ignorance is that it is difficult to search the site.
  One answer might be if that some kind soul who recognises that a 
  certain thread has satisfactorily thrashed out an issue, were to 
  post a summary in the Files section. Future questioners on that 
  topic could then be directed to that file.
  As an example of my frustration - I have recently bought IJC/OPM in 
  favour of QTR simply because of all the confusion of newbies as to 
  what to download, where to find the instructions and how to get an 
  overview - these are questions which have been answered many times 
  in this group, but I am still none the wiser as I have faied to 
  collate all the disjointed snippets which are spread over many many 
  posts. On the other hand Louis Dina put some excellent information 
  on IJC in the files which was the clincher for me. 
  Sorry that I have rambled, but the use of the Files section would be 
  beneficial to all I think.





  Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as they are often being updated.

  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

  If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page.

  Please follow these basic guidelines:
  - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
  - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the membership without notice.
  - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from the membership.
  - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files section:
  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/

  BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.



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              ADVERTISEMENT
             
       
       


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Yahoo! Groups Links

    a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/
      
    b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
    DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      
    c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

What would be even better would be a subgroup, like a sub folder or sub directory, but I 
don't know that that is possible in Yahoo groups,

so a new group is starting strictly focused on QTR.  

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/QuadtoneRIP

The intent of course is QTR related posts, but we will also offer an instruction manual 
eventually and whatever else seems reasonable.  Will also depend on what resources we 
can attract, and donations (of files: hints, tips, etc).

Hopefully non QTR related items will continue to post here because this is a great group.  
As a matter of fact non QTR items will be "moderated out" with a link to here.

I am in discussion with Roy Harrington about how much or how little involvement he will 
have time for/be interested in.  I would hate to distract him from further technical 
upgrades to the RIP.

The group will start slowly if only because I am in the midst of a cross country drive.  
Come join "us"; it is lonely l over here  :)

Suggestions are welcome: like maybe "don't bug us with another darn group, or..."  or "it's 
crass to post this on someone else'sgroup" (I am sort of bothered by that)

Scott Graham





--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, 
"Diane Fields" <picnic@c...> wrote:
> I agree.  I looked at the files first when I resubbed to the list this time.  There wasn't too 
much to help but through a search I actually found a very good synopsis of how to use 
QTR in more or less 'soft proof' mode written by Lou Dina I believe.  I copied it for my own 
use and it would be a good candidate for the files.The other thing I copied (and I've 
printed out both) is the help from Roy Harrington's page for the same usage.  These have 
been helpful to me, but I bet something along the lines of how to actually use QTR for the 
beginner would be a good addition to the file--something similar to Lou's very short and 
sweet directions for proofing.
>

You'll see me there--and here.  I'm so much happier with my mono printing since I found QTR (and that tends to be a lot of  my focus).  

Diane
-----------
Diane B. Fields
picnic@...
photo site  http://www.pbase.com/picnic

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Scott Graham 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Monday, March 21, 2005 8:02 AM
  Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Will this forum ever get streamlined?



  What would be even better would be a subgroup, like a sub folder or sub directory, but I 
  don't know that that is possible in Yahoo groups,

  so a new group is starting strictly focused on QTR.  

  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/QuadtoneRIP

  The intent of course is QTR related posts, but we will also offer an instruction manual 
  eventually and whatever else seems reasonable.  Will also depend on what resources we 
  can attract, and donations (of files: hints, tips, etc).



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Scott Graham wrote:

>What would be even better would be a subgroup, like a sub folder or sub directory, but I 
>don't know that that is possible in Yahoo groups,
>  
>
Since the Window QTR version I do have a filter in Mozilla Thunderbird 
that redirects any subject with QTR - Quadtone - etc.  to a folder 
"QTR". From the B&W list, the Qimage list and the Wide format list. Now 
I will add the messages from the new list too. A similar "Coating" 
folder exists for coatings, varnish - glop in the subject line. What 
doesn't get there but belongs there is dragged and dropped. Streamlining 
can be done by the reader as well. Not to mention filters to avoid the 
trolls.

Another mailing list for QTR may not be a bad solution but cutting this 
mailing list in even more slices isn't my idea of streamlining.

Ernst

Ernst,the things we're all unhappy with are hard-wired into
mostly-unmoderated Yahoo. 

The only solution (other than personal discipline when posting)
involves active moderators...which means free volunteers unless a
moderator is selling a product that's somehow relevant to the Forum. 

> Another mailing list for QTR may not be a bad solution but cutting this 
> mailing list in even more slices isn't my idea of streamlining.
> 
> Ernst

On Mar 21, 2005, at 5:45 AM, Francis Ford wrote:

>
> I agree that this site is very good. One can get an
> overview on what printer setup has the least
> trouble,the best d-max.Francis Ford

I'm a new member, and would love to hear what printer has the least 
trouble and the best d-max! :+)
Phil Stiles NH USA
(Presently enjoying an HP Photosmart 7960, but wanting to increase size 
of output.)

> --- yah_group <david@...> wrote:
>>
>> I have been reading this group for a couple of years
>> now and have
>> been much impressed by the dedication of many of the
>> expert regulars
>> who often politely answer seemingly daft and naive
>> questions from
>> novices such as myself. More often than not my
>> questions would have
>> been answered many times in the past on a
>> monotonously regular basis
>> and understandibly the answers given to my questions
>> might be less
>> than comprehensive. The only mitigation I have to
>> some of my
>> ignorance is that it is difficult to search the
>> site.
>> One answer might be if that some kind soul who
>> recognises that a
>> certain thread has satisfactorily thrashed out an
>> issue, were to
>> post a summary in the Files section. Future
>> questioners on that
>> topic could then be directed to that file.
>> As an example of my frustration - I have recently
>> bought IJC/OPM in
>> favour of QTR simply because of all the confusion of
>> newbies as to
>> what to download, where to find the instructions and
>> how to get an
>> overview - these are questions which have been
>> answered many times
>> in this group, but I am still none the wiser as I
>> have faied to
>> collate all the disjointed snippets which are spread
>> over many many
>> posts. On the other hand Louis Dina put some
>> excellent information
>> on IJC in the files which was the clincher for me.
>> Sorry that I have rambled, but the use of the Files
>> section would be
>> beneficial to all I think.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> 		
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses.
> http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other 
> resources as they are often being updated.
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish 
> to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting 
> this same page.
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to 
> keep them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or 
> flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from 
> the membership without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital 
> B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be 
> removed from the membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and 
> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group 
> Owner and Moderators. See “Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines” in the 
> Files section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
>
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE 
> PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE “OWNER” 
> AND “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE 
> LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, 
> CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, 
> DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE 
> LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  “OWNER” AND “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT 
> YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), 
> RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, 
> THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF 
> YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD 
> PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER 
> MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

I wonder if moving it to Google would be better? Sheesh, anything would be better than 
this model of poorly-planned programming. 

Anyone on a Google group? Better?

Jon

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Djon" <westsidemaurice@y...> 
wrote:

> 
> Ernst,the things we're all unhappy with are hard-wired into
> mostly-unmoderated Yahoo. 
> 
> The only solution (other than personal discipline when posting)
> involves active moderators...which means free volunteers unless a
> moderator is selling a product that's somehow relevant to the Forum. 
> 
> > Another mailing list for QTR may not be a bad solution but cutting this 
> > mailing list in even more slices isn't my idea of streamlining.
> > 
> > Ernst

Paul-

I'd certainly be comfortable with that.



Bill Kennedy
Associate Professor of Photocommunications
St. Edward's University
512/448-8680


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Bill,

I even like the idea of having the search engines compete.  I'm not sure
that is possible if you have one of them sponsor the group.  I'm clueless as
to the cost of having, for example, a Google search of "our" database.  Or
how we could assure that "our" database stayed an open, public one.
University and/or multiple sponsorships might help.

Since most of the variables in the structure of a database would seem to be
more a software, indexing issue than physical storage space, I'd like to see
specific folders for both author and thread.  I want to be able to limit my
search to specific folders.  I may want to see an entire tread, but I might
also like to see what X, Y, & Z said on that thread and only that thread.  I
think the Yahoo search and other simple word searches pick up the
individual's names that are in the text of the message.  Word searches are
the best, but I also want to limit my search by author and cut the volume
and noise down. 

I think the ability to have the search systems compete is going to be a huge
leap in the internet's usefulness.  How to structure a public database to
take best advantage of this is not, however, clear to me.  

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: BKPhoto@... [mailto:BKPhoto@...]
> Sent: Friday, March 25, 2005 10:03 AM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Will this forum ever get streamlined?
> 
> 
> Paul-
> 
> I'd certainly be comfortable with that.
> 
> 
> 
> Bill Kennedy
> Associate Professor of Photocommunications
> St. Edward's University
> 512/448-8680
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
> they are often being updated.
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
> page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
> Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
> membership without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
> printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from
> the membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner
> and Moderators. See Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines in the Files
> section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> 
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
> YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE OWNER AND
> MODERATORS OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO
> YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR
> EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF
> PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE
> OWNER AND MODERATORS OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN
> ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE
> OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii)
> UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii)
> STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
> YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE
> PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>

Paul-

Nor to me, unfortunately. It's outside my (limited) expertise.



Bill Kennedy
Associate Professor of Photocommunications
St. Edward's University
512/448-8680


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Why not just implement an independent threaded discussion forum - why use
Google at all?

 

  _____  

From: BKPhoto@... [mailto:BKPhoto@...] 
Sent: 25 March 2005 19:03
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Will this forum ever get streamlined?

 

Paul-

I'd certainly be comfortable with that.



Bill Kennedy
Associate Professor of Photocommunications
St. Edward's University
512/448-8680


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
they are often being updated.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
page.

Please follow these basic guidelines:
- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
membership without notice.
- Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from
the membership.
- By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and
Moderators. See Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines in the Files section:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/

BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE OWNER AND
MODERATORS OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU
FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY
DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS,
GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  OWNER AND
MODERATORS OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE
POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY
TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR
ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY
THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER
MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.







Yahoo! Groups Sponsor



ADVERTISEMENT
 
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etflix.com/Default?mqso=60190075> click here


 
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ubscribe> 
  
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I think the solution, in my humble, yet informed opinion (I am the webmaster for a public 
university), is that this group really needs to be reinvented as a modern web-based forum, 
which would easily include all the features that have been mentioned:  easy to follow 
threads, messages organized by categories, and a built-in sophisticated (and usable) 
search engine.

There is a popular open source product that can do all of this-- phpBB (www.phpbb.com).  
All one would need to do is register a domain name, select a web hosting company, and 
install and configure this software on it.  Fairly easy, but importing the archived collective 
wisdom of this group would probably take a fair amount of work, though.

Just an idea.

-Steve

I could also host a threaded discussion forum. Not phpBB, but Fusetalk
(www.fusetalk.com <http://www.fusetalk.com/> )

 

The software used is not a problem - they all do much the same thing.
Importing the archived wisdom is the big issue as Steve rightly says

 

  _____  

From: Stephen P. Veillette [mailto:stephen@...] 
Sent: 25 March 2005 19:57
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Will this forum ever get streamlined?

 


I think the solution, in my humble, yet informed opinion (I am the webmaster
for a public 
university), is that this group really needs to be reinvented as a modern
web-based forum, 
which would easily include all the features that have been mentioned:  easy
to follow 
threads, messages organized by categories, and a built-in sophisticated (and
usable) 
search engine.

There is a popular open source product that can do all of this-- phpBB
(www.phpbb.com).  
All one would need to do is register a domain name, select a web hosting
company, and 
install and configure this software on it.  Fairly easy, but importing the
archived collective 
wisdom of this group would probably take a fair amount of work, though.

Just an idea.

-Steve





Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
they are often being updated.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
page.

Please follow these basic guidelines:
- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
membership without notice.
- Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from
the membership.
- By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and
Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files section:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/

BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND
"MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU
FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY
DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS,
GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  "OWNER" AND
"MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE
POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY
TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR
ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY
THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER
MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.







Yahoo! Groups Sponsor



ADVERTISEMENT
 
<http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=129135vf4/M=298184.6191685.7192823.3001176/D=gr
oups/S=1705019182:HM/EXP=1111863489/A=2593423/R=0/SIG=11el9gslf/*http:/www.n
etflix.com/Default?mqso=60190075> click here


 
<http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=298184.6191685.7192823.3001176/D=groups/S=
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ubscribe> 
  
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

What costs are involved in what you guys seem to see as the solution?

For the past archives, if the major contributors submit their archives, is
there a problem?  Could those be sorted and searched?

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Richard [mailto:r.tugwell@aimforth.com]
> Sent: Friday, March 25, 2005 11:12 AM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Will this forum ever get streamlined?
> 
> 
> I could also host a threaded discussion forum. Not phpBB, but Fusetalk
> (www.fusetalk.com <http://www.fusetalk.com/> )
> 
> 
> 
> The software used is not a problem - they all do much the same thing.
> Importing the archived wisdom is the big issue as Steve rightly says
> 
> 
> 
>   _____
> 
> From: Stephen P. Veillette [mailto:stephen@...]
> Sent: 25 March 2005 19:57
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@...m
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Will this forum ever get streamlined?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think the solution, in my humble, yet informed opinion (I am the
> webmaster
> for a public
> university), is that this group really needs to be reinvented as a modern
> web-based forum,
> which would easily include all the features that have been mentioned:
> easy
> to follow
> threads, messages organized by categories, and a built-in sophisticated
> (and
> usable)
> search engine.
> 
> There is a popular open source product that can do all of this-- phpBB
> (www.phpbb.com).
> All one would need to do is register a domain name, select a web hosting
> company, and
> install and configure this software on it.  Fairly easy, but importing the
> archived collective
> wisdom of this group would probably take a fair amount of work, though.
> 
> Just an idea.
> 
> -Steve
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
> they are often being updated.
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
> page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
> Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
> membership without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
> printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from
> the membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner
> and
> Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> 
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
> YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND
> "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO
> YOU
> FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY
> DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS,
> GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  "OWNER" AND
> "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE
> POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY
> TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO
> OR
> ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF
> ANY
> THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER
> MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> 
> 
> 
> ADVERTISEMENT
> 
> <http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=129135vf4/M=298184.6191685.7192823.3001176/D=
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> etflix.com/Default?mqso=60190075> click here
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> 
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> 
>   _____
> 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
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> ubscribe>
> 
> *	Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
> <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>  Terms of Service.
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
> they are often being updated.
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
> page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
> Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
> membership without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
> printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from
> the membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner
> and Moderators. See Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines in the Files
> section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> 
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
> YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE OWNER AND
> MODERATORS OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO
> YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR
> EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF
> PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE
> OWNER AND MODERATORS OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN
> ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE
> OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii)
> UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii)
> STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
> YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE
> PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" <paul.roark@v...> 
wrote:
> What costs are involved in what you guys seem to see as the solution?
> 
> For the past archives, if the major contributors submit their archives, is
> there a problem?  Could those be sorted and searched?
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com 

The costs involved with that I suggested would be for the domain name and web hosting.  
Domain names can be purchased for less than $15 a year, and web hosting can be 
purchased for less than $15 a month.

Though I suggested it (it was really just a top-of-the-brain idea), I do have significant 
concerns with going this route: it would rely upon only one or two individuals for keeping 
the forum in existence, which would pose too much of a risk (IMO) of something 
happening that could shut the forum down (e.g. the "owner" doesn't pay the bills and 
service gets cut off, or the "owner" dies or otherwise is unable to continue to manage the 
domain name and web hosting service).

I think there are two better alternatives:

1) find a company that is willing to host the forum on their servers.

2) find another service, similar to Yahoo!, that hosts free forums and move there.

I personally like option 2, since it avoids having the forum tied to an individual and avoids 
potential freedom of speech issues with having a company host it.  How long would 
company XYZ tolerate us talking bad about a product they make or provide glowing 
reviews of their competitor's products?  Obviously, this is only an issue if company XYZ is 
realted to digital B&W printing, and I see little reason for any other types of companies 
wanting to host a forum not related to their business (I could be wrong).

Also, how would we manage the money issue?  Free forums avoid that altogether, but we 
would most likely have to put up with advertising.

And just to get it out of the way, the university I work at has policies against hosting web 
sites for outside interests.  We tried in the past, but the experience wasn't positive, so we 
put an end to it.

-Steve

This forum works pretty well for me . . . . mainly just because the 
Mail software in OS X highlights all past emails relating to the one 
you're reading . . . But I agree; it would be nice to have a more 
functional forum/organization. There are many different Yahoo forums 
relating to what we talk about in this forum (Piezography3000, 
EpsonWideFormat, etc.) and I feel that if we took this forum out of the 
Yahoo realm, people would just drift to those forums unless the new 
forum was somehow hot-linked to this one or well announced and had good 
email support. This is a very energetic group of new users and 
professionals. That is what its strength is; we need to foster that. 
I'm sure google will come out with good forum support with unlimited 
track-backs and module support in a year or so. I'm hearing they're 
also thinking about creating a web-based OS. We'll see . . .

As the technology grows and we become ever more involved with digital 
technique, this group may become a full-fledged organization. Till 
then, lets just keep working here until a really good alternative comes 
along that's free. :-)

take care all, Walker

On Mar 25, 2005, at 03:14 PM, Stephen Veillette wrote:

>
>  --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" 
> <paul.roark@v...>
>  wrote:
>  > What costs are involved in what you guys seem to see as the 
> solution?
>  >
>  > For the past archives, if the major contributors submit their 
> archives, is
>  > there a problem?� Could those be sorted and searched?
>  >
>  > Paul
>  > www.PaulRoark.com
>
>  The costs involved with that I suggested would be for the domain name 
> and web hosting.�
>  Domain names can be purchased for less than $15 a year, and web 
> hosting can be
>  purchased for less than $15 a month.
>
>  Though I suggested it (it was really just a top-of-the-brain idea), I 
> do have significant
>  concerns with going this route: it would rely upon only one or two 
> individuals for keeping
>  the forum in existence, which would pose too much of a risk (IMO) of 
> something
>  happening that could shut the forum down (e.g. the "owner" doesn't 
> pay the bills and
>  service gets cut off, or the "owner" dies or otherwise is unable to 
> continue to manage the
>  domain name and web hosting service).
>
>  I think there are two better alternatives:
>
>  1) find a company that is willing to host the forum on their servers.
>
>  2) find another service, similar to Yahoo!, that hosts free forums 
> and move there.
>
>  I personally like option 2, since it avoids having the forum tied to 
> an individual and avoids
>  potential freedom of speech issues with having a company host it.� 
> How long would
>  company XYZ tolerate us talking bad about a product they make or 
> provide glowing
>  reviews of their competitor's products?� Obviously, this is only an 
> issue if company XYZ is
>  realted to digital B&W printing, and I see little reason for any 
> other types of companies
>  wanting to host a forum not related to their business (I could be 
> wrong).
>
>  Also, how would we manage the money issue?� Free forums avoid that 
> altogether, but we
>  would most likely have to put up with advertising.
>
>  And just to get it out of the way, the university I work at has 
> policies against hosting web
>  sites for outside interests.� We tried in the past, but the 
> experience wasn't positive, so we
>  put an end to it.
>
>  -Steve
>
>
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other 
> resources as they are often being updated.
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
>  If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish 
> to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting 
> this same page.
>
>  Please follow these basic guidelines:
>  - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to 
> keep them short.
>  - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or 
> flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from 
> the membership without notice.
>  - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital 
> B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be 
> removed from the membership.
>  - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and 
> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group 
> Owner and Moderators. See �Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines� in the 
> Files section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
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> YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), 
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> THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF 
> YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD 
> PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER 
> MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
>
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> Service.
>
>  

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Google does have a groups feature (http://groups-beta.google.com/), but it is in beta and 
very feature-limited.

Regarding your concerns, Walker, I think any serious discussion of moving this group 
would need to involve a polling of current membership to see which way to proceed-- stay 
or leave.  Any ideas that I've been floating are just an attempt to brainstorm solutions to 
the problems and concerns that others have with this forum (which I also share).

-Steve

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Walker Blackwell <lists@g...> 
wrote:

> This forum works pretty well for me . . . . mainly just because the 
> Mail software in OS X highlights all past emails relating to the one 
> you're reading . . . But I agree; it would be nice to have a more 
> functional forum/organization. There are many different Yahoo forums 
> relating to what we talk about in this forum (Piezography3000, 
> EpsonWideFormat, etc.) and I feel that if we took this forum out of the 
> Yahoo realm, people would just drift to those forums unless the new 
> forum was somehow hot-linked to this one or well announced and had good 
> email support. This is a very energetic group of new users and 
> professionals. That is what its strength is; we need to foster that. 
> I'm sure google will come out with good forum support with unlimited 
> track-backs and module support in a year or so. I'm hearing they're 
> also thinking about creating a web-based OS. We'll see . . .
> 
> As the technology grows and we become ever more involved with digital 
> technique, this group may become a full-fledged organization. Till 
> then, lets just keep working here until a really good alternative comes 
> along that's free. :-)
> 
> take care all, Walker

Stephen I would kinda liken this forum to a learning center. I have been 
a use of OS/2 Warp for many years and one of the main places to find out 
info , but 99% deposit of free ware and shareware software for warp now 
called eComStation is Hobbes, which has been on a server at the 
University of Arizona for years and was maintained by different students 
thur out its history. Recently though it came under the radar of the 
University though it was worked out by a donation from the Warp 
community which bought it a new server to hold the archives. Which is 
thousands of files. Now I dont believe that this community is much 
different other than its for the development and education of B&W 
printing. The right person with the right insight might be able to 
approach a School of Photo with this as a teaching tool for a student to 
maintain while there. I really dont know the logistics of the Hobbes 
situation other than what I mention. Just a Thought. Anthony

Stephen Veillette wrote:

>--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" <paul.roark@v...> 
>wrote:
>  
>
>Also, how would we manage the money issue?  Free forums avoid that altogether, but we 
>would most likely have to put up with advertising.
>
>And just to get it out of the way, the university I work at has policies against hosting web 
>sites for outside interests.  We tried in the past, but the experience wasn't positive, so we 
>put an end to it.
>
>-Steve
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as they are often being updated.
>
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
>If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page.
>
>Please follow these basic guidelines:
>- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
>- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the membership without notice.
>- Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from the membership.
>- By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and Moderators. See \ufffdGroup Topic, Rules and Guidelines\ufffd in the Files section:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
>
>BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE \ufffdOWNER\ufffd AND \ufffdMODERATORS\ufffd OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  \ufffdOWNER\ufffd AND \ufffdMODERATORS\ufffd OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> 
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
> 
>
>
>
>
>
>  
>

I used to belong to a great group - full of wise and helpful folks. It was almost as good as 
this forum. Then many got fed-up with the host, software, and user interface. Folks were 
in agreement that a change could be a very good thing indeed. As the group got closer 
and closer to a decision, a few strong members saw the implementation very differently - 
then egos got in the mix. In the end the group fragmented into three different groups on 
three different servers. Sadly, there were enough hurt feelings that the whole enterprise 
lost focus and it all fell apart. Change can be good, but only IF the group survives. I am not 
at all opposed to a cleaner, more searchable forum - but I'd hate to see history repeat 
itself.

PLEASE be careful here.

Phil C.

On 25 Mar 2005 at 22:01, Stephen Veillette wrote:

> Google does have a groups feature (http://groups-beta.google.com/), but it is in beta and 
> very feature-limited.

Isn't that just a web interface / archive of usenet?

For the record, I have no problem with the current setup...other than 
the now-poor archive search function.  I prefer email-based groups to 
web groups.  Usenet is fine too.

FWIW...

Lee


-- 
Lee Hiers, AA4GA
Cornelia, Georgia

"Have Dobro Will Travel"

Hello,

Here's a thought - - 

I own a large Website which offers resources for Web builders known 
as "reallybig.com." It is really a network of sites which has been 
online continuously since 1997. As part of that project, several 
months ago I purchased forum software and the necessary license to 
run VBULLETIN on my servers. Vbulletin is probably the most widely-
utilized and most stable commercial forum product in use today. Here 
are some examples of vbulletin board currently in use:

http://photography-on-the.net/forum/index.php?
http://cayenne.rennlist.com/cayenne/forum.htm
http://www.dcresource.com/forums/

Although the forum is set up and ready to go, we have turned off a 
server module to make it thus far "temporarily unavailable" for 
postings, as we are about to make some significant and positive 
changes at reallybig.com. Most importantly, we will be breaking the 
forum away from the rest of the site and placing it on a brand new 
server, where it will be made ready to roll. There is no reason on 
earth why I would not be able to easily host this DBWTP forum as a 
specific area of interest, along with other existing topics and 
categories.  

It would be available to the public, and would require registration. 
It could be moderated or not, and I am completely open to giving 
full access to the software administration panels to one or several 
other members, in order to facilitate the normal management duties 
that might be required. This takes some of the burden from me, and 
also ensures that the forum would never be held aside, in the event 
of some catastrophe, such as my sudden demise (let me just knock on 
wood here for a moment...).

The forum area (like all areas of my network) will see the same 
advertising as the rest of the forum areas, but ads will never 
appear as interstitials (those horrible ads that appear instead of 
the page you were expecting), and will appear only at the page 
borders (such as the top, bottom, etc.).

My servers are backed up every evening, redundantly to two unrelated 
and completely separate servers. I have NEVER lost data on my 
Websites.

Also, you should be aware that I am NOT a forum guru, so I will 
occasionally require the assistance of folks more knowledgeable than 
myself, when it comes to setting things up in a more "whiz bang" way.

Anyone have any thoughts or feelings about this? Care to open a 
dialog about pursuing this route?

Sincerely,

Jeff


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Stephen 
Veillette" <stephen@v...> wrote:
> 
> Google does have a groups feature (http://groups-
beta.google.com/), but it is in beta and 
> very feature-limited.
> 
> Regarding your concerns, Walker, I think any serious discussion of 
moving this group 
> would need to involve a polling of current membership to see which 
way to proceed-- stay 
> or leave.  Any ideas that I've been floating are just an attempt 
to brainstorm solutions to 
> the problems and concerns that others have with this forum (which 
I also share).
> 
> -Steve
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Walker 
Blackwell <lists@g...> 
> wrote:
> > This forum works pretty well for me . . . . mainly just because 
the 
> > Mail software in OS X highlights all past emails relating to the 
one 
> > you're reading . . . But I agree; it would be nice to have a 
more 
> > functional forum/organization. There are many different Yahoo 
forums 
> > relating to what we talk about in this forum (Piezography3000, 
> > EpsonWideFormat, etc.) and I feel that if we took this forum out 
of the 
> > Yahoo realm, people would just drift to those forums unless the 
new 
> > forum was somehow hot-linked to this one or well announced and 
had good 
> > email support. This is a very energetic group of new users and 
> > professionals. That is what its strength is; we need to foster 
that. 
> > I'm sure google will come out with good forum support with 
unlimited 
> > track-backs and module support in a year or so. I'm hearing 
they're 
> > also thinking about creating a web-based OS. We'll see . . .
> > 
> > As the technology grows and we become ever more involved with 
digital 
> > technique, this group may become a full-fledged organization. 
Till 
> > then, lets just keep working here until a really good 
alternative comes 

> > along that's free. :-)
> > 
> > take care all, Walker

In a message dated 3/26/05 11:39:19 AM, js@... writes:


> Anyone have any thoughts or feelings about this? Care to open a
> dialog about pursuing this route?
> 
> Sincerely,
> 
> Jeff
> 

Jeff-

I am not qualified to judge one approach compared to another, but I very much 
appreciate your willingness--and the willingness of the others who've posted 
on this thread--to make this list an even better resource.

I've experience no significant issues with the administration or 
implementation of this list, but agree with others that a better archiving/retrival system 
would be a big step in the right direction. I know it would be very helpful 
to my students.

Lacking expertise, I'd gladly donate to this effort if there are upfront 
costs. I'll have to leave it to more experienced members to decide which route is 
best.



Bill Kennedy
Associate Professor of Photocommunications
St. Edward's University
512/448-8680


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

The lack of a comprehensive searching ability makes this forum about
1% as useful as it should be. I would be in favor of (almost) anything
that allows full searching while keeping the group's talent together.

Is it possible to run the proposed separate group in parallel with
this crippled, irritating, band-clogging Yahoo forum to minimize the
stress of the change-over?

I must admit that I have never been happy with Yahoo groups and would
welcome a reincarnation even back to a Usenet format. Usenet was
USE-able. Hell, I'd go back to PINE, if it would let me effectively
search all the great data stored here!

Frank

I know this might not be a solution for others, but I recently
acquired a GMail account solely for the purpose of building a
searchable archive for my favorite yahoo groups. I have the email sent
to the gmail account.

If anyone wants a gmail invitation I have 50. PLEASE contact me offlist.

Linda J

On Sat, 26 Mar 2005 18:36:16 -0000, njfranknj <kolwicz@...> wrote:
> 
> 
> The lack of a comprehensive searching ability makes this forum about
> 1% as useful as it should be. I would be in favor of (almost) anything
> that allows full searching while keeping the group's talent together.
> 
> Is it possible to run the proposed separate group in parallel with
> this crippled, irritating, band-clogging Yahoo forum to minimize the
> stress of the change-over?
> 
> I must admit that I have never been happy with Yahoo groups and would
> welcome a reincarnation even back to a Usenet format. Usenet was
> USE-able. Hell, I'd go back to PINE, if it would let me effectively
> search all the great data stored here!
> 
> Frank
> 
>

Stephen,

Personally I hate forums! You never know what might be useful info until you 
scan the post. Titles are often totally irrelevant. It is so easy to receive 
the emails, quickly scan them or carefully read those that seem interesting, 
delete those that are not, and keep those that are.

So if you want to get rid of me, just switch to a forum format. To scan all 
the posts in a forum for useful info would take an eternity!

Bob Frost.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Stephen Veillette" <stephen@...>



Regarding your concerns, Walker, I think any serious discussion of moving 
this group
would need to involve a polling of current membership to see which way to 
proceed-- stay
or leave.  Any ideas that I've been floating are just an attempt to 
brainstorm solutions to
the problems and concerns that others have with this forum (which I also 
share).

I know little about setting up one, maintaining, etc., but I know the Photography-on-the-net forum is nicely done.  Pekka Saarinen, a Canon photographer in Denmark I believe, has run this forum for a good while.  Its easy to navigate, search, etc.

Diane 

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: k2kv 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Saturday, March 26, 2005 12:38 PM
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Will this forum ever get streamlined?



  Hello,

  Here's a thought - - 

  I own a large Website which offers resources for Web builders known 
  as "reallybig.com." It is really a network of sites which has been 
  online continuously since 1997. As part of that project, several 
  months ago I purchased forum software and the necessary license to 
  run VBULLETIN on my servers. Vbulletin is probably the most widely-
  utilized and most stable commercial forum product in use today. Here 
  are some examples of vbulletin board currently in use:

  http://photography-on-the.net/forum/index.php?
  http://cayenne.rennlist.com/cayenne/forum.htm
  http://www.dcresource.com/forums/



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Bob,

I had not thought of that--I agree--I read several forums, but never all the threads by a long shot and email is much more convenient for this group for myself.  I think the main thing that is difiicult with the yahoogroups is a searchable database.  I have unsubbed and resubbed over a period of time and always try to search for some particular things when I resub--and find it very difficult.

Diane

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Bob Frost 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Saturday, March 26, 2005 2:29 PM
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Will this forum ever get streamlined?


  Stephen,

  Personally I hate forums! You never know what might be useful info until you 
  scan the post. Titles are often totally irrelevant. It is so easy to receive 
  the emails, quickly scan them or carefully read those that seem interesting, 
  delete those that are not, and keep those that are.

  So if you want to get rid of me, just switch to a forum format. To scan all 
  the posts in a forum for useful info would take an eternity!

  Bob Frost.

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: "Stephen Veillette" <stephen@...>



  Regarding your concerns, Walker, I think any serious discussion of moving 
  this group
  would need to involve a polling of current membership to see which way to 
  proceed-- stay
  or leave.  Any ideas that I've been floating are just an attempt to 
  brainstorm solutions to
  the problems and concerns that others have with this forum (which I also 
  share).




  Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as they are often being updated.

  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

  If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page.

  Please follow these basic guidelines:
  - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
  - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the membership without notice.
  - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from the membership.
  - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files section:
  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/

  BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I believe there are many advantages to the forum format, and that is 
why it is so popular. But it certainly won't do everything for 
everyone. For example, it will not create a digest and send email of 
every post made during the day, and some folks really do like that 
feature. It will, however, notify you of new postings to specific 
threads you may be intersted in, as it allows you to "subscribe" to 
threads of interest. Some folks think that is a better approach, 
other don't like it.

And, this Yahoo board offers little, if any, search facility, while 
the forum unquestionably offers extensive search capabilities. 
Getting all the archives into it is another story, but I am pretty 
sure they can be compiled and reformatted, then placed into the 
forum database without too much difficulty. I suspect that an adept 
database programmer will be required to perform this task initially 
(should not be very difficult for us to locate).

In Yahoo's favor, I have found Yahoo to be seriously reliable, and 
don't really mind the interstitial ads, as they are simply the price 
of admission. But finding information here (which I believe to be 
the thrust of this endeavor), and having to pore over every single 
post is tedious at best, especially now, with the "new" format 
(doesn't anyone at yahoo think they should ever ask their users what 
they prefer for their forums??).

The issue of having to scan each post before finding out what is 
useful is not at all solved by the Yahoo format. At the very 
least, commercial forum software lets you separate threads by their 
titles and - as the forum grows - by as many sub-categories as you 
like. And, in a well-administered forum, miscategorized threads will 
be quickly moved by its administrators to more appropriate 
locations, whenever necessary. This feature alone make the forum 
format a supremely well-organized source of information.

Yahoo is just one big mess of a list. So, in a commercial forum, if 
you are only looking for information about using eboni on your 2200, 
there would be little reason to find and open the thread 
entitled "roll paper," located under the "Paper" category. You would 
more likely look under a category called "Third Party Inks," or you 
could simply perform a search on eboni, 2200 or both.

Beats having to read the title of every single thread in the 
database...

Jeff


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Diane Fields" 
<picnic@c...> wrote:
> Bob,
> 
> I had not thought of that--I agree--I read several forums, but 
never all the threads by a long shot and email is much more 
convenient for this group for myself.  I think the main thing that 
is difiicult with the yahoogroups is a searchable database.  I have 
unsubbed and resubbed over a period of time and always try to search 
for some particular things when I resub--and find it very difficult.
> 
> Diane
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
>   From: Bob Frost 
>   To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
>   Sent: Saturday, March 26, 2005 2:29 PM
>   Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Will this forum ever get streamlined?
> 
> 
>   Stephen,
> 
>   Personally I hate forums! You never know what might be useful 
info until you 
>   scan the post <snip>

As someone who develops websites for a living, here's a couple of thoughts.

 

Forums can be successful when they do what they are supposed to - enable and
facilitate discussion about topics of mutual interest. Forum software can
also disseminate information as email and digests if required (depends on
the software). If people mainly prefer email, then possibly a mailing list
would be a better solution. Products like Mailman provide email delivery,
but also archiving and searching facilities.

 

However in making a decision about this, it appears to me that there are
several fundamental uses of the current forum which may not fit snugly in
one solution

 

a)       Notification of new products, ideas, discoveries etc (In my view
one of the most useful)

b)       Requests for help, or opinions (support)

c)       Knowledge base type information. (How to's etc)

d)       Ranting and raving

 

It could be that you need a fully tailored website to cater adequately for
all of these, but I guess questions of ownership, who gets to make the
decisions, administration and costs are likely to render this a non-starter.
In any case - a solution should try and adequately address all the current
users requirements, especially given the amount of help and assistance that
many of them provide

 

 

  _____  

From: Diane Fields [mailto:picnic@...] 
Sent: 26 March 2005 20:57
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Will this forum ever get streamlined?

 

Bob,

I had not thought of that--I agree--I read several forums, but never all the
threads by a long shot and email is much more convenient for this group for
myself.  I think the main thing that is difiicult with the yahoogroups is a
searchable database.  I have unsubbed and resubbed over a period of time and
always try to search for some particular things when I resub--and find it
very difficult.

Diane
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Bob Frost 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Saturday, March 26, 2005 2:29 PM
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Will this forum ever get streamlined?


  Stephen,

  Personally I hate forums! You never know what might be useful info until
you 
  scan the post. Titles are often totally irrelevant. It is so easy to
receive 
  the emails, quickly scan them or carefully read those that seem
interesting, 
  delete those that are not, and keep those that are.

  So if you want to get rid of me, just switch to a forum format. To scan
all 
  the posts in a forum for useful info would take an eternity!

  Bob Frost.

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: "Stephen Veillette" <stephen@...>



  Regarding your concerns, Walker, I think any serious discussion of moving 
  this group
  would need to involve a polling of current membership to see which way to 
  proceed-- stay
  or leave.  Any ideas that I've been floating are just an attempt to 
  brainstorm solutions to
  the problems and concerns that others have with this forum (which I also 
  share).




  Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
they are often being updated.

  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

  If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
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  Please follow these basic guidelines:
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them short.
  - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
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  - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from
the membership.
  - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and
Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files section:
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  BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
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FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY
DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS,
GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  "OWNER" AND
"MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE
POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY
TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR
ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY
THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER
MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
they are often being updated.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
page.

Please follow these basic guidelines:
- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
membership without notice.
- Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from
the membership.
- By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and
Moderators. See Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines in the Files section:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/

BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE OWNER AND
MODERATORS OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU
FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY
DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS,
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MODERATORS OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE
POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY
TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR
ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY
THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER
MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.







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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I had a look at phpBB last night. It was real easy to install and
administer. I made a test installation here:

http://digitalbw.staver.no/

Feel free to post messages, but it's just a test installation and I
might take it down again soon. I've added some random categories that
reflect some of the things we usually discuss here.

Email me if you want to test the administration interface and I'll set
up the permissions for your user.

The author of Personal Groupware, a Yahoo Groups offline reader, will
convert a Yahoo group to phpBB for $45 plus $1 for every 1000 messages.
That would amount to just over $100 to have the entire archives converted.

There is a plugin for phpBB that will send a digest daily or weekly. I
haven't yet found anything that would send individual posts as emails.
Maybe it would be possible to combine it with Mailman... I don't know..

A wiki would be great as a knowledgebase. I've looked into various
solutions for another project I'm working on, but haven't yet landed on
a specific product.

Like I mentioned earlier, I have a dedicated linux server running on a
2mbit line and would be happy to host something for the group for free.
I would want to run nightly backups offsite to someone else on this list 
to make sure nothing would be lost in case I should be hit by a bus and 
catch fire or something.

For the same reason it would be good to use standard solutions with
strong community support like phpBB rather than something custom
developed. If only one person knows the code it can be hard for someone
else to take over.

--
Daniel Staver
http://daniel.staver.no

> As someone who develops websites for a living, here's a couple of 
> thoughts.
> 
> Forums can be successful when they do what they are supposed to - 
> enable and facilitate discussion about topics of mutual interest. 
> Forum software can also disseminate information as email and digests 
> if required (depends on the software). If people mainly prefer email,
> then possibly a mailing list would be a better solution. Products
> like Mailman provide email delivery, but also archiving and searching
> facilities.
> 
> However in making a decision about this, it appears to me that there
>  are several fundamental uses of the current forum which may not fit
>  snugly in one solution
> 
> a)       Notification of new products, ideas, discoveries etc (In my
>  view one of the most useful)
> 
> b)       Requests for help, or opinions (support)
> 
> c)       Knowledge base type information. (How to's etc)
> 
> d)       Ranting and raving
> 
> It could be that you need a fully tailored website to cater 
> adequately for all of these, but I guess questions of ownership, who
>  gets to make the decisions, administration and costs are likely to 
> render this a non-starter

Does QTR support the use of the MIS 7600 archival inkset in a 2200?  
I'm mostly interested in matte paper FWIW.  And Eboni in the K 
position too.  

Or are most folks either using a dedicated B&W inkset or original 
Epson inks?

Thanks,

Lee


-- 
Lee Hiers, AA4GA
Cornelia, Georgia

"Have Dobro Will Travel"

i am using mis 7600 ink with 2200 and qtr, works fine. i have the photo blk


On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 22:07:53 -0500, Lee Hiers <aa4ga@...> wrote:
> 
> Does QTR support the use of the MIS 7600 archival inkset in a 2200?
> I'm mostly interested in matte paper FWIW.  And Eboni in the K
> position too.
> 
> Or are most folks either using a dedicated B&W inkset or original
> Epson inks?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Lee
> 
> --
> Lee Hiers, AA4GA
> Cornelia, Georgia
> 
> "Have Dobro Will Travel"
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as they are often being updated.
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the membership without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from the membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> 
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 


-- 
  -------------------------------------
  regards, mehrdad

QTR can run ANY inkset - with the right linearised ink descriptors.  The
Epson UC ink descriptor files will be close for the MIS UC equivalents but
you would likely benefit from relinearization.

> From: Lee Hiers <aa4ga@...>

> 
> Does QTR support the use of the MIS 7600 archival inkset in a 2200?
> I'm mostly interested in matte paper FWIW.  And Eboni in the K
> position too.  
> 
> Or are most folks either using a dedicated B&W inkset or original
> Epson inks?
>

Jeff,

OK, I can see that if you are only looking for info, the forum format may 
allow you to read stuff on that subject more quickly, if it is there, but if 
you are reading posts in order to help people, or to improve your knowledge 
of color management/digital photography generally, the forum format is 
useless.

I suggest you will get less help on a forum, since fewer people will read 
your plea for help, but if you are only wanting to look at other people's 
pleas for help, it will be easier to find them on a forum, but as I said at 
the beginning of this sentence, they will be fewer and probably less useful 
than if you posted your question on a list like this.

Bob Frost.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "k2kv" <js@...>

Yahoo is just one big mess of a list. So, in a commercial forum, if
you are only looking for information about using eboni on your 2200,
there would be little reason to find and open the thread
entitled "roll paper," located under the "Paper" category. You would
more likely look under a category called "Third Party Inks," or you
could simply perform a search on eboni, 2200 or both.

Beats having to read the title of every single thread in the
database...

Jeff