Digital BW, The Print

I'm been using MIS carbon pigments inks for a few years now and all
the while thinking that they have those qualities which contribute to
print permanence. But what proof do I have ? 

Which pigment is used in the Eboni black ink ? Is it carbon black ?

I've been searching the Wilhelm site for info on the MIS inksets but
did not find any. It is because it's there and I've been looking in
the wrong place or because MIS never got around to have the inkset
tested by WIR.

If it's a question of money, I'd be more than happy to contribute to a
fund that would allow MIS UT inksets to be tested by WIR. All MIS has
to do is let me check a box for a contribution and add an amount each
time I make a purchase.

And I'm sure MIS could get with a paper mfg to share to cost of
testing their inksets with a specific brand of paper.


Cheers,
      Andre Moreau

Andre,

 
> I'm been using MIS carbon pigments inks for a few years now and all
> the while thinking that they have those qualities which contribute to
> print permanence. But what proof do I have ?
> 
> Which pigment is used in the Eboni black ink ? Is it carbon black ?

I'm told it's carbon.


> 
> I've been searching the Wilhelm site for info on the MIS inksets but
> did not find any. 


Wilhelm is too expensive for small companies unless they know someone.  MIS
had its older pigments tested by RIT.  Those are on its web site.

I have been doing comparative testing.  I use fluorescent light (as does
Wilhelm) in a "bare bulb" setting.  I do not test out to 30% fade, and I do
not attempt to assign a "years of display life."  I found in early testing
that after an initial fast fade (which turned out to be the dyes burning
off), the pigments seemed to settle into a relatively linear pattern.  So, I
just look at the fade rate and my decisions based on that plus what I see on
Wilhelm and other resources on the web.

The MIS carbon pigments have done the best in my testing.  The UC
UltraChromes, when sprayed with Premier Art print Shield are almost as good
and better in terms of delta E.  Because of that, I've published UC-based
equivalent inkset formulas.

The watercolor field has lots of information on longevity.  There are
industry standards and apparently good third party tests.

The longest life I've ever seen anyone assign to an ink was by Livick at
http://www.livick.com/method/inkjet/pg2d2.htm, about 1/3 down the page.
With respect to a coated MIS UT print from a 1280 he states,  "FIXATIVES AND
JUST ONE CLEARSHIELD BRUSHED ON COATING -- OUR NEUTRAL GRAY BAND SHOWS 681
YEARS LONGEVITY WITH A 30% FADE -- (AND 227 YEARS LONGEVITY WITH JUST A 10%
FADE OCCURRING)"

> If it's a question of money, I'd be more than happy to contribute to a
> fund that would allow MIS UT inksets to be tested by WIR. All MIS has
> to do is let me check a box for a contribution and add an amount each
> time I make a purchase.

 
> And I'm sure MIS could get with a paper mfg to share to cost of
> testing their inksets with a specific brand of paper.

I don't know, but I'll pass the thought to MIS.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Andre, why not do your own fade tests?  I have been using a simple, comparative fade 
testing method for several years.  I run a set of direct sunlight fade tests in the spring, one 
in the summer and another in the fall.  I always test several different types of prints 
together, including both traditional and inkjet processes.  I cut all of the samples in half 
and put one half in a light tight drawer.  The other half of each sample is taped up in a 
south facing window on the second story of a commercial building in Central California 
with unobstructed sunlight during daylight hours.  I usually leave them up for eight weeks.  
Then I take them down and pair them with their other halves to see what visible fading or 
color shift has occurred.

These are not scientific tests and I do not presume to predict display life in years (I am 
also highly skeptical that Wilhelm's methods are any better than mine in terms of making 
the kinds of predictions that he makes, given the nature of the reciprocity problem 
involved).  I only care about fading that I can see and how the samples perform relative to 
one another.  It is well established that a selenium toned silver print is the most 
permanent photographic process to date.  So I always include one in my tests.  I have also 
included non-toned silver prints and RC silver prints in some tests to get an idea of 
relative performance. 

So far the top performers in my tests have been selenium toned silver prints and quad 
tone prints made with Cone Editions quad inks and Museum Black on Hahnemuhle Photo 
Rag paper.  Neither of those two print types has ever shown any visible fading in my tests.  
Virtually every other type of print that I have tested has shown either fading, color shift or 
both.  This includes untoned silver fibre prints, RC silver prints, Platinum/Paladium prints,  
Fuji Crystal Archive type C prints, Ultrachrome color, Ultrachrome B&W, Lyson dye-based 
quad tones, Lyson Daylight Darkroom, Media Street Generations G-Chrome, Cone Editions 
quad inks with Portfolio Black, Epson consumer desktop six-color and more.  The amount 
of fading or color shift varied from very slight to substantial.

Good luck.
Joel

Hello Joel,

Thanks for the reply.

My post is more in relation to inkjet permanence data from standard
tests procedure than about choosing which inkset and paper combination
which give the most in term of display permanence.

What H. Wilhelm is doing is much like the Miles Per Gallon rating of
the automobile industry. While it cannot determine what mpg you'll get
out of your car, it allows for a comparisation between car models.

What W.I.R. is bringing to the table is data: light stability data and
permanence data. It gives a ballpark figure on what should be expected
in term of display permanence when a certain combination of ink and
paper is used. But data nonetheless, and data that I can print and
show art fair jurors, art gallery owners and prospective clients.

As far as MIS inkset's are concerned I have nothing, save for what
Paul Roark has published and I'll see what it is on his website.

I do not hold W.I.R.'s test to face value: just change one or two
variable like humidity or heat or both and display permanence rapidly
diminishes.

As far as doing the test myself, I'd rather leave that to others. I
remember Jone Cone doing the south window permanence test a few years
ag and also the late Jerry Olson putting prints by the rear window of
his car. While not scientific, a lot was learned from these tests and
from your own test also.

But, when I'm asked to provide info on print permanence, I'd rather
have some printed data that people can look at, rather than having to
say "Well, I know this guy who..."

Cheers,
Andre Moreau

As a user of Cone Quad inks with Museum Black on Photo Rag, I wasn't 
surprised to read your about your test results. I've also done similar 
informal tests on various materials (though we don't have enough sun 
here for these to be really useful!)

However I think it is important to realise than light fading is only one 
of the problems involved in print permanence. Home and office 
environments may contain levels of air pollution that are extremely 
harmful to prints, including Cone inks. Laser printers may well be a 
factor in this; scrap prints and test prints stored near my laser 
printer often show relatively rapid and dramatic fading, but there are 
also other possible sources, including photographic chemicals.

Although the better inkjet prints do extremely well on light fading, I 
think there remain greater problems with them in this respect than with 
some traditional photographic materials.

Regards,

-- 
Peter Marshall
petermarshall@...     +44 (0)1784 456474
31 Budebury Rd, STAINES, Middx, TW18 2AZ, UK
_________________________________________________________________
My London Diary	              http://mylondondiary.co.uk/
London's Industrial Heritage: http://petermarshallphotos.co.uk/
The Buildings of London etc:  http://londonphotographs.co.uk/
and elsewhere......

joelpickford wrote:

> 
> 
> Andre, why not do your own fade tests?  I have been using a simple, comparative fade 
> testing method for several years.  I run a set of direct sunlight fade tests in the spring, one 
> in the summer and another in the fall.  I always test several different types of prints 
> together, including both traditional and inkjet processes.  I cut all of the samples in half 
> and put one half in a light tight drawer.  The other half of each sample is taped up in a 
> south facing window on the second story of a commercial building in Central California 
> with unobstructed sunlight during daylight hours.  I usually leave them up for eight weeks.  
> Then I take them down and pair them with their other halves to see what visible fading or 
> color shift has occurred.
> 
> These are not scientific tests and I do not presume to predict display life in years (I am 
> also highly skeptical that Wilhelm's methods are any better than mine in terms of making 
> the kinds of predictions that he makes, given the nature of the reciprocity problem 
> involved).  I only care about fading that I can see and how the samples perform relative to 
> one another.  It is well established that a selenium toned silver print is the most 
> permanent photographic process to date.  So I always include one in my tests.  I have also 
> included non-toned silver prints and RC silver prints in some tests to get an idea of 
> relative performance. 
> 
> So far the top performers in my tests have been selenium toned silver prints and quad 
> tone prints made with Cone Editions quad inks and Museum Black on Hahnemuhle Photo 
> Rag paper.  Neither of those two print types has ever shown any visible fading in my tests.  
> Virtually every other type of print that I have tested has shown either fading, color shift or 
> both.  This includes untoned silver fibre prints, RC silver prints, Platinum/Paladium prints,  
> Fuji Crystal Archive type C prints, Ultrachrome color, Ultrachrome B&W, Lyson dye-based 
> quad tones, Lyson Daylight Darkroom, Media Street Generations G-Chrome, Cone Editions 
> quad inks with Portfolio Black, Epson consumer desktop six-color and more.  The amount 
> of fading or color shift varied from very slight to substantial.
> 
> Good luck.
> Joel

Wilhem is not a not-for-profit, help mankind outfit.  They are in it for the
buck.  That's why I have always had a heartache with Epson and other large
corps using fiundings they paid him to do.  Not that he makes stuff up but,
they have a conflict of interest.

RIT (IPI lab) does not do that.  They charge but, last I knew, you could not
use the results in advertising.

Seth

==-----Original Message-----
==> 
==> I've been searching the Wilhelm site for info on the MIS 
==inksets but 
==> did not find any.
==