Digital BW, The Print

I have tried (without success) to run QuadToneRIP (Windows version).  
Instead I have been using an Epson C86 with MIS inks for b&w - keeping 
an Epson 2200 with color inks. I have also used Clayton Jones technique 
of black-only printing with the 2200. It seems the next step to better 
b&w printing might be to go to MIS inks for the 2200 or bite the bullet 
and spend the money for ImagePrint (and I'm assuming that I would be 
able to understand the tutorial that is included with that software). 
Has anyone compared MIS ink prints with prints done with ImagePrint?  
Are the differences apparent and significant?  Thank's - Edward

Edward, I had only an average experience with MIS, over a year ago now 
so it may be much better. Then piezography was a money pit partly 
because of the problems with 1290 printers but still a lot of messing 
about for very little wow. Then I got QTR for Windows and it continues 
to amaze me printing better b&w in a range of controlable and 
repeatable tones from a colour inkset (Epson 4000) which allows the 
printer to print colour as well. I printed an amazing 73 x 17 inch 
panorama in rich sepia last week. The Epson driver and profiles will 
not print sepia on matte paper without a lot of posterization. Other 
solutions, which I have not tried cost thousands. After two years of 
experimenting and spending a lot of time and money, I am not going to 
retire from the laboratory and print some photographs. 
My advice is, don't give up on QTR.
John

I must say that it is a bit frustrating to read about the wonderful 
results so many get using QuadToneRIP and not being able to use it 
myself.  In the intro to his tutorial, Tom Moore says that he does not 
address all aspects of QuadToneRip, followed by "A broader tutorial 
would be useful, but since QuadToneRIP has been in such wide 
use . . .for a number of months. . .the need is not urgent."  Well, I 
would have to disagree.  For the person new to QuadTone and more 
experienced with analog photography than with computers, the need for a 
a basic step-by-step tutorial is urgent.  Would that someone would 
write one.  Until then, I shall continue with MIS inks and try to find 
out more about ImagePrint.  With thanks for your response,  Edward     -
-- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "wharfwalker" 
<jswhite@f...> wrote:
> 
> Edward, I had only an average experience with MIS, over a year ago 
now 
> so it may be much better. Then piezography was a money pit partly 
> because of the problems with 1290 printers but still a lot of messing 
> about for very little wow. Then I got QTR for Windows and it 
continues 

> to amaze me printing better b&w in a range of controlable and 
> repeatable tones from a colour inkset (Epson 4000) which allows the 
> printer to print colour as well. I printed an amazing 73 x 17 inch 
> panorama in rich sepia last week. The Epson driver and profiles will 
> not print sepia on matte paper without a lot of posterization. Other 
> solutions, which I have not tried cost thousands. After two years of 
> experimenting and spending a lot of time and money, I am not going to 
> retire from the laboratory and print some photographs. 
> My advice is, don't give up on QTR.
> John

Hi Edward,

Sorry to hear you have had problems with QTR. There is a tremendous 
amount of support for the program on this group, and also a new group 
has just been formed for QTR at this URL: 

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/QuadtoneRIP/

When you're having problems, it doesn't do much good to have me or a 
lot of other people telling you how trouble-free the program is in 
general, so we won't go there ;>)

I might also mention that IJC/OPM is another very good RIP that runs 
on the same print engine as QTR but (for the moment) has a bit more 
of a commercial GUI and support base. The price is a higher than 
Roy's incredibly generous $50 shareware -- IJC/OPM runs $250 (still 
VERY inexpensive for the functionality, and you can find out more 
about it at http://www.bowhaus.com

In the interim, using Paul's EZ-UT inkset for the C86 (I assume
you're using the MIS EZ version, yes?) is a very good interim step. 
For many, depending on what they're doing with their prints, it is 
all you may ever need. Clayton's "Black Only" for the 2200 has an 
almost legendary following, and using an MIS Eboni cart in the K 
position produces beautiful B&W "Tri-X" results.

Regarding ImagePrint, it is a pretty good RIP if you are running a
2200 with UltraChromes. The B&W output is generally quite good and 
many people prefer the simplicity of IP and UltraChromes to the full 
quadtone approach so they have both color and B&W in one machine. 
However, it is not inexpensive, Colorbyte tech support is not the 
best, and you will find yourself relying on the good people here and 
in the Yahoo Imageprint forum for most of your answers.

In terms of how IP compares with MIS or Piezotone inksets and either
a RIP or Paul's curves, this becomes subjective to the artist and 
often is more or less specific to the print and subject as well.

Personally, we use IP, Cone Piezotones, MIS inks (with RIPs and
curves) and print on 9600, 7000/9000, 2200 and desktop printers. Are 
there differences? Definitely. Is there a simple, objective 
quantification of that difference? I don't think so, but subjectively 
I would say there is a certain beauty to the subtle tonalities of the 
quadtone print that are unique. However, the UltraChromes have proven 
their commercial and collectible value on all fronts, so this really 
becomes a personal matter of choice for you.

Most importantly, I would hope that you can settle into a system that 
perfoms close to your artistic standard as quickly and easily as 
possible and enjoy your photography -- because that's why we're all 
involved here. We don't want to get too caught up in the struggle 
with equipment if we can avoid it.

Then, as you continue to enjoy working with your photography and 
printing on whatever system you choose for now, you can pursue the
refinements and nuances of printing offered by the different systems 
without battling the frustration of what you set out to do, which is 
to have fun and make art. 

If I can answer any questions for you, I'd be happy to try...

All the best,
Richard
 
--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "mastedward" 
<mastedward@y...> wrote:
> 
> I have tried (without success) to run QuadToneRIP (Windows
version).  
> Instead I have been using an Epson C86 with MIS inks for b&w - 
keeping 
> an Epson 2200 with color inks. I have also used Clayton Jones 
technique 
> of black-only printing with the 2200. It seems the next step to 
better 
> b&w printing might be to go to MIS inks for the 2200 or bite the 
bullet 
> and spend the money for ImagePrint (and I'm assuming that I would
be 
> able to understand the tutorial that is included with that
software). 
> Has anyone compared MIS ink prints with prints done with
ImagePrint?  
> Are the differences apparent and significant?  Thank's - Edward

Edward,

One last afterthought to my last reply -- if you want to try 
ImagePrint you can download a demo from their Website. You can see 
how easily it installs for you (or not) and can get a sense of their 
output on your 2200 with UltraChromes. 

I say "a sense" of the output because it will print a big "DEMO" 
watermark all across your print, and calling it a "watermark" is 
generous because it's actually pretty hard to see what you've got 
behind the white "DEMO" markings.

Still, it will let you sample the documentation, setup and to some 
degree, the output...

All the best,
Richard

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "mastedward" 
<mastedward@y...> wrote:
> 
> I must say that it is a bit frustrating to read about the wonderful 
> results so many get using QuadToneRIP and not being able to use it 
> myself.  In the intro to his tutorial, Tom Moore says that he does 
not 
> address all aspects of QuadToneRip, followed by "A broader tutorial 
> would be useful, but since QuadToneRIP has been in such wide 
> use . . .for a number of months. . .the need is not urgent."  Well, 
I 
> would have to disagree.  For the person new to QuadTone and more 
> experienced with analog photography than with computers, the need 
for a 
> a basic step-by-step tutorial is urgent.  Would that someone would 
> write one.  Until then, I shall continue with MIS inks and try to 
find 
> out more about ImagePrint.  With thanks for your response,  
Edward     -
> -- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "wharfwalker" 
> <jswhite@f...> wrote:
> > 
> > Edward, I had only an average experience with MIS, over a year 
ago 
> now 
> > so it may be much better. Then piezography was a money pit partly 
> > because of the problems with 1290 printers but still a lot of 
messing 
> > about for very little wow. Then I got QTR for Windows and it 
> continues 
> > to amaze me printing better b&w in a range of controlable and 
> > repeatable tones from a colour inkset (Epson 4000) which allows 
the 
> > printer to print colour as well. I printed an amazing 73 x 17 
inch 
> > panorama in rich sepia last week. The Epson driver and profiles 
will 
> > not print sepia on matte paper without a lot of posterization. 
Other 
> > solutions, which I have not tried cost thousands. After two years 
of 
> > experimenting and spending a lot of time and money, I am not 
going to 

> > retire from the laboratory and print some photographs. 
> > My advice is, don't give up on QTR.
> > John

Personally, we use IP, Cone Piezotones, MIS inks (with RIPs and
curves) and print on 9600, 7000/9000, 2200 and desktop printers. Are
there differences? Definitely. Is there a simple, objective
quantification of that difference? I don't think so, but subjectively
I would say there is a certain beauty to the subtle tonalities of the
quadtone print that are unique. However, the UltraChromes have proven
their commercial and collectible value on all fronts, so this really
becomes a personal matter of choice for you.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Richard, Do you use MIS pigments in the 9600 and 9000 with a cf system, or fill 
carts?


John

Hi John,

I guess I should have been a bit more specific about what inks we're 
using in which printers -- I didn't mean to be misleading...

The 9600 runs on a steady diet of UltraChromes as it is used 
primarily for outputing color canvas and color on fine art papers. 
Since I also have IP and a license for the 9600, it is also used for 
some B&W output on fine art papers -- usually low-key portraiture.

The 9000 runs CN Piezotones and the 7000 runs WN Piezotones. I have 
never had a head clogging problem with any of my wide format systems, 
and the Piezotones have been stellar in that respect (as have the UCs 
in the 9600). I purchased an inventory of Piezotones from a private 
party a while ago, so I haven't switched out either of those printers 
to MIS inks. However, I just bought an MIS CIS system for the 7000, 
and when my stock of WN Piezotones is gone I will be filling it with 
MIS UT2 inks.

My experience with the MIS UT/UT-2 inks on the 3000, 1280 and 1160 
has been excellent. I don't use the 3000 much any more, but the 1280 
and 1160 are still favorites when it comes to sheet feeding multiple 
prints and fine-art cards, and with the results I get it seems so 
much more economical to continue using these machines then firing up 
a wide-format printer for something smaller. Also, being able to 
sheet feed smaller papers saves a lot of cutting of ganged images.

My 2200 is also running UltraChromes, though I have used MIS Eboni K 
carts for black-only printing. I also have an IP Lite version for the 
2200 that I purchased before the QTR and IJC/OPM RIPs were released 
for the PC, so it also does some duty as a B&W machine particularly 
for toned output.

So, that's a long answer to a short question, John. I try not to fill 
carts on any machines, so on the 3000, 7000 and 9000 I always use 
220ml universal carts. CIS on the desktops, and the one exception is 
the 2200 -- but if that stays in the print mix I'll assuredly convert 
it to an IR Damper feed system and just purchase 10600 UC carts to 
feed it with (I'm trying really hard not to succomb to my urge to 
pick up a 4000 and if I do, I know I'll have to thin out my "printer 
farm" a bit and the 2200 will probably retire ;>))

Lastly, I've driven the 9600 and 2200 with my own profiles for color, 
and used IP (and recently a very successful trial of QTR) for UC B&W 
so I'll probably purchase QTR now that the profiling/linearization 
package is evolving for the PC -- it also does very well with the MIS 
UT2 inks...

Hope you reached a decision on what to feed your 10K in the next ink 
changeover, and hope that Jan helped with the CP questions.

All the best, John!

Richard

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "john dean" 
<deanwork2003@y...> wrote:
> 
> Personally, we use IP, Cone Piezotones, MIS inks (with RIPs and
> curves) and print on 9600, 7000/9000, 2200 and desktop printers. Are
> there differences? Definitely. Is there a simple, objective
> quantification of that difference? I don't think so, but 
subjectively
> I would say there is a certain beauty to the subtle tonalities of 
the
> quadtone print that are unique. However, the UltraChromes have 
proven
> their commercial and collectible value on all fronts, so this really
> becomes a personal matter of choice for you.
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------
> 
> 
> Richard, Do you use MIS pigments in the 9600 and 9000 with a cf 
system, or fill 

> carts?
> 
> 
> John

For someone like me a trial run with Imageprint makes good sense. 
I'll check it out at their website. Thank you, Richard --- In 
DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "richard_h95050" 
<richardh@j...> wrote:
> 
> Edward,
> 
> One last afterthought to my last reply -- if you want to try 
> ImagePrint you can download a demo from their Website. You can see 
> how easily it installs for you (or not) and can get a sense of 
their 
> output on your 2200 with UltraChromes. 
> 
> I say "a sense" of the output because it will print a big "DEMO" 
> watermark all across your print, and calling it a "watermark" is 
> generous because it's actually pretty hard to see what you've got 
> behind the white "DEMO" markings.
> 
> Still, it will let you sample the documentation, setup and to some 
> degree, the output...
> 
> All the best,
> Richard
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "mastedward" 
> <mastedward@y...> wrote:
> > 
> > I must say that it is a bit frustrating to read about the 
wonderful 
> > results so many get using QuadToneRIP and not being able to use 
it 
> > myself.  In the intro to his tutorial, Tom Moore says that he 
does 
> not 
> > address all aspects of QuadToneRip, followed by "A broader 
tutorial 
> > would be useful, but since QuadToneRIP has been in such wide 
> > use . . .for a number of months. . .the need is not urgent."  
Well, 
> I 
> > would have to disagree.  For the person new to QuadTone and more 
> > experienced with analog photography than with computers, the need 
> for a 
> > a basic step-by-step tutorial is urgent.  Would that someone 
would 
> > write one.  Until then, I shall continue with MIS inks and try to 
> find 
> > out more about ImagePrint.  With thanks for your response,  
> Edward     -
> > -- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "wharfwalker" 
> > <jswhite@f...> wrote:
> > > 
> > > Edward, I had only an average experience with MIS, over a year 
> ago 
> > now 
> > > so it may be much better. Then piezography was a money pit 
partly 
> > > because of the problems with 1290 printers but still a lot of 
> messing 
> > > about for very little wow. Then I got QTR for Windows and it 
> > continues 
> > > to amaze me printing better b&w in a range of controlable and 
> > > repeatable tones from a colour inkset (Epson 4000) which allows 
> the 
> > > printer to print colour as well. I printed an amazing 73 x 17 
> inch 
> > > panorama in rich sepia last week. The Epson driver and profiles 
> will 
> > > not print sepia on matte paper without a lot of posterization. 
> Other 
> > > solutions, which I have not tried cost thousands. After two 
years 

> of 
> > > experimenting and spending a lot of time and money, I am not 
> going to 
> > > retire from the laboratory and print some photographs. 
> > > My advice is, don't give up on QTR.
> > > John