Digital BW, The Print

Hello All.

Perhaps this has been covered; I have tried searching the archives,
but am not really sure what to search for.  If so, I apologize.

With the 8 ink carts on the Epson 4000, I have been wondering if it
would be possible to load one up with 2 ink sets, one quad-tone for
b&w printing, and one color for, um, color work.  My main priority is
top quality black & white printing, but if I am going to spend the
money on  a state of the art technology like the 4000, I would not
mind being able to  produce the occasional color print as well.

First, is this possible? If I understand properly, some of you are
using  multiple quad sets for variable toning effects, is this any
differnet than that?  Would the color output from 4 inks be noticeably
inferior than that from the newer 6 or 7 ink sets?

Second, if it is possible, what does it take to do it?  Is there a
preferable RIP for this type of thing (I am heavily commited to the
Mac)?  Any additional tools required to profile/linearize the thing? 

Or... should I just dedicate a re-furbed 7500 to b&w, and send the
occasional color print to the service beureau?

Thanks for any input.

Chris

Let's tackle the easy part first... The 4000 houses 1 matte black 
cart, 1 photo black cart, and 1 light black cart all at the same 
time. So in reality, you already have 3 blacks to use on matte 
papers, and 2 on gloss. If 2 inks is enough, then you are all set. 
I'm sure that most will recommend using Eboni for the matte black, 
and whatever matches for the light black (the Epson light black tends 
to be a little warm). To get good results, try Quadtone RIP running 
on a Mac OSX or PC.

Now the hard part. Many high end RIPs will allow you to put nearly 
any color ink, in any channel, and the good ones let you control 
mixing between channels. You may need very expensive and complex 
profile creation tools to make these multichannel profiles (like 
Monaco Profiler Platinum) to make it work. Expect to pay a lot of 
money for this combination. It would be cheaper to buy a 7600 for 
color, and another 7600 for dedicated grayscale work. I suggest you 
look into option 1 first. And if you are going to buy something 
refurbed, think about a 7600, they are not much bigger than the 4000, 
but only hold one full black at a time, and the light black.

The refurbed 7500s seem like a rip off to me, and I question how much 
is really refurbished, and how much just has the counter reset. If 
you bought one from Epson, then it might be OK, but from other 
places, I question how thoroughly they really get checked. A refurbed 
machine should have new heads, and motors, as well as all other 
maint. items replaced. That's about 8 hours labor and adjustment plus 
the cost of the parts, so I find it hard to believe that everything 
really gets done.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "grady209"
<grady209@y...> wrote:
...
> With the 8 ink carts on the Epson 4000, I have been wondering if it
> would be possible to load one up with 2 ink sets, one quad-tone for
> b&w printing, and one color for, um, color work.
...
> First, is this possible?
yes

> If I understand properly, some of you are
> using  multiple quad sets for variable toning effects, is this any
> differnet than that?
yes, multiple quad sets means just that, they are monochromatic ink
sets, no color inks.

>  Would the color output from 4 inks be noticeably
> inferior than that from the newer 6 or 7 ink sets?
Yes, without the light M and C, you will get more visible dots, and
less fine gradations. The smaller dots of the 4000 wil minimize this
compared to the old 3000 though.

> Second, if it is possible, what does it take to do it?  Is there a
> preferable RIP for this type of thing (I am heavily commited to the
> Mac)?  Any additional tools required to profile/linearize the thing?
StudioPrint will do it. You'll also need a spectro for linearizing and
profiling, and and app for CMYK profiling, unless you get the
additional GPS profiler with StudioPrint, a higher investment.
It would be an ideal setup for tinted monochrome, in CMYK mode you'd
have a 4 part K and C, M, and Y to adjust hue, or just stay in quad
mode for straight quads. Setup for all this would not be quick and
easy, but is doable.
However it is PC only, if you are commited to the Mac, you'll have to
look at the Colorburst RIP, I don't know if you can do the above with
that. Not sure if it has such channel/ink tank assignment flexibility,
and linearizable multi part K.

> Or... should I just dedicate a re-furbed 7500 to b&w, and send the
> occasional color print to the service beureau?
Much more affordable options with that setup.
Tyler

dfaprinting wrote:

>Let's tackle the easy part first... The 4000 houses 1 matte black 
>cart, 1 photo black cart, and 1 light black cart all at the same 
>time. So in reality, you already have 3 blacks to use on matte 
>papers, and 2 on gloss. If 2 inks is enough, then you are all set. 
>I'm sure that most will recommend using Eboni for the matte black, 
>and whatever matches for the light black (the Epson light black tends 
>to be a little warm). To get good results, try Quadtone RIP running 
>on a Mac OSX or PC.
>
>  
>
As far as I know the matte black channel and the photo black channel can 
not be used at the same time.  I've suggested that possibility for QTR 
but got the negative reply. This means that the choices are like the 
2200, 7600, 9600.

There are 3 types of 4000's, among them a model with a double CMYK 
inkset. Either they are loaded with different firmware or are set that 
way when the first set of inkcarts are loaded. It would be interesting 
to see whether the double CMYK model allows ones side to be driven in 
CMYK mode and the other in a quad mode. I bet that it isn't possible to 
split the head tasks on that model.

Ernst

OPM/IJC the Bowhaus RIP can control any of the inks in any combination. 
So I can see no reason why you could not profile IJC to use all three 
black carts at the same time. Could be your answer.

Peter.

Both IJC/OPM and QTR deliver excellent B&W and toned monochrome prints 
using the standard UC inkset.  Great Dmax, smooth gradations, linear 
output, excellent neutrality, etc.  They are both inexpensive 
solutions, and if you are happy with the B&W prints you get from your 
4000, you will be able to leave the standard inkset in your printer for 
color work.  

I do this with my 2200.  I use IJC/OPM for all my monochrome printing, 
and the Epson driver with custom profiles for color work.  Works on 
either a PC or Mac platform.  

Lou

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "bwbonkers" 
<PeterDLevis@a...> wrote:
> 
> OPM/IJC the Bowhaus RIP can control any of the inks in any 
combination. 

> So I can see no reason why you could not profile IJC to use all three 
> black carts at the same time. Could be your answer.
> 
> Peter.

Louis Dina wrote:

>Both IJC/OPM and QTR deliver excellent B&W and toned monochrome prints 
>using the standard UC inkset.  Great Dmax, smooth gradations, linear 
>output, excellent neutrality, etc.  They are both inexpensive 
>solutions, and if you are happy with the B&W prints you get from your 
>4000, you will be able to leave the standard inkset in your printer for 
>color work.  
>
>I do this with my 2200.  I use IJC/OPM for all my monochrome printing, 
>and the Epson driver with custom profiles for color work.  Works on 
>either a PC or Mac platform.  
>
>Lou
>
>  
>
This isn't to argue about the quality of the B&W possible with the RIPs 
and the Ultrachrome inkset but I'm interested whether the two blacks are 
both used in the 4000 for matte printing with mentioned RIPs.

I may have missed something since the introduction of the 4000 and my 
questions then whether QTR could address the 3 black/grey ink channels 
at the same time. The answer then was (AFAIR) that one couldn't use 
Photo Black + Matte Black at the same time. I have no 4000 here so I 
never checked what QTR actually does with the 4000. If IJC/OPM can drive 
the 3 channels at the same time then there's no firmware or hardware 
limitation and QTR should be able to do it in theory.

Is IJC/OPM useing the 3 black/greys at the same time ?  And what does 
QTR with the 4000 ?

I'm using QTR now with the MIS inks: Eboni + PK + two lighter greys in a 
9000 for matte papers. Though the PK is quite dark for a set like that I 
like to keep it that way for reasons that have more to do with 
consistency of the printer for both matte and gloss printing.

In general the 3 black/greys of the Ultrachrome sets are all quite dark 
compared to other quad sets, the finer minimum droplet size and the 
variable droplet size take care of that. Changing the black/grey inks to 
a more quad compatible set will change the color printing basics too and 
influence the gloss Dmax.

Ernst

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Ernst Dinkla
<E.Dinkla@c...> wrote
...
> This isn't to argue about the quality of the B&W possible with the RIPs 
> and the Ultrachrome inkset but I'm interested whether the two blacks
are 
> both used in the 4000 for matte printing with mentioned RIPs.

If both K tanks can not be used at the same time and assigned at will,
than my previous post about StudioPrint is out the window unless
sticking with 7 tanks at any given time.
To those suggesting IJC, I have no doubt you are happy with it's
output. However, the poster asked about a specific ink setup, C, M, Y,
and a 4 part quad K. This is just 7 inks by the way. While IJC and QTR
would do many great things for mono output with this setup, he would
be stranded for color. Certainly the Epson driver will no longer with
this custom ink arrangement.
There may be several good RIPs that will handle this, StudioPrint is
simply the one I with which I am familiar. He needs to be able to
assign any tank to C, M, Y, K, AND have the K be partitioned.
Additionally, if all tanks were assignable, a 3 part black and full
color capability is doable as Ernst implies. Seems like the better way
to go. Color output would not be compromised, and tri-tone mono output
would probably look quite nice, tintable too.
Being able to use all 8 tanks is the key, I didn't know one couldn't.
Tyler

Ernst Dinkla <E.Dinkla@c...> 
> This isn't to argue about the quality of the B&W possible with the RIPs 
> and the Ultrachrome inkset but I'm interested whether the two blacks are 
> both used in the 4000 for matte printing with mentioned RIPs.

Ernst,

I looked at a few of the 4000 matte profiles - in their text form - and it looks like there is 
no line to designate between "photo" or "matte" black...only "K" is listed.

I think Photo Black or Matte Black can only be chosen by the driver and not the profile with 
the 4000.

Here's a partial copy and paste of a 4000 Enhance Matte profile in text form (that's before 
it gets converted into a .quad profile) Notice only "K" and "LK" are available. No "PK" or 
"MK"...


#
# Gray Partitioning Information
#
N_OF_GRAY_PARTS=2
GRAY_INK_1=K 
GRAY_VAL_1=100 

GRAY_INK_2=LK
GRAY_VAL_2=32 

GRAY_INK_3=
GRAY_VAL_3=

GRAY_INK_4=
GRAY_VAL_4=

GRAY_INK_5=
GRAY_VAL_5=

GRAY_INK_6=
GRAY_VAL_6=

GRAY_INK_7=
GRAY_VAL_7=

In my previous email I was referring to QTR's profile.

> OPM/IJC the Bowhaus RIP can control any of the inks in any combination.
> So I can see no reason why you could not profile IJC to use all three
> black carts at the same time. ...

I don't believe QTR or IJC can utilize both the matte and glossy (photo)
black inks at the same time.  I think the decision is made by firmware or
hardware that may still be out of reach.

"Media type" limitations of the newer UltraChrome printers is also a
problem.  The 4000 may actually sense the paper type.

I just put a PK chip on my 7600 MK cart so that I could have the full paper
type list available.  This has allowed me to raise the 7600 matte dmax up to
competitive levels.  EEM is now at 1.65.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

I'm surprised that a "photo" paper would be given more ink than a "matte"
paper.  I would have thought that a matte paper had the capacity to soak up
more ink.  I guess dot gain is an issue.  Presumably you could simply
increase the colour density in the Epson driver to achieve the same thing?
And presumably by swapping the chip you only get access to the photo paper
choices?

> From: Paul Roark <paul.roark@...>

> 
> I just put a PK chip on my 7600 MK cart so that I could have the full paper
> type list available.  This has allowed me to raise the 7600 matte dmax up to
> competitive levels.  EEM is now at 1.65.
>

John Vitollo wrote:

>
>I looked at a few of the 4000 matte profiles - in their text form - and it looks like there is 
>no line to designate between "photo" or "matte" black...only "K" is listed.
>
>I think Photo Black or Matte Black can only be chosen by the driver and not the profile with 
>the 4000.
>
>Here's a partial copy and paste of a 4000 Enhance Matte profile in text form (that's before 
>it gets converted into a .quad profile) Notice only "K" and "LK" are available. No "PK" or 
>"MK"...
>
>
>#
># Gray Partitioning Information
>#
>N_OF_GRAY_PARTS=2
>GRAY_INK_1=K 
>GRAY_VAL_1=100 
>
>GRAY_INK_2=LK
>GRAY_VAL_2=32 
>
>GRAY_INK_3=
>GRAY_VAL_3=
>
>GRAY_INK_4=
>GRAY_VAL_4=
>
>GRAY_INK_5=
>GRAY_VAL_5=
>
>GRAY_INK_6=
>GRAY_VAL_6=
>
>GRAY_INK_7=
>GRAY_VAL_7=
>
>  
>
John, thank you,

7 channels then for QTR.  A higher bid from the other RIPs ?


Ernst

Ernst,

I just downloaded some 4000 profiles from the Bowhaus website.  I 
opened up the profiles in IJC and there are only 7 ink positions 
listed at any one time.  There is a checkbox at the bottom of the 
screen which allows the user to select EITHER Photo Black OR Matte 
Black ink.  So, it appears you can select one or the other, but not 
both at the same time.  

I don't own a 4000, so I am making an educated guess, but that seems 
fairly solid.  Whether this is a hardware limitation or not, I am not 
sure.  Perhaps Bowhaus just figured nobody would want to use all 8 
slits at once, but I doubt it.  They know very well that many people 
will want to try different inksets.

FWIW, Lou

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Ernst Dinkla 
<E.Dinkla@c...> wrote:
> John Vitollo wrote:
> 
> >
> >I looked at a few of the 4000 matte profiles - in their text form -
 and it looks like there is 
> >no line to designate between "photo" or "matte" black...only "K" 
is listed.
> >
> >I think Photo Black or Matte Black can only be chosen by the 
driver and not the profile with 
> >the 4000.
> >
> >Here's a partial copy and paste of a 4000 Enhance Matte profile in 
text form (that's before 
> >it gets converted into a .quad profile) Notice only "K" and "LK" 
are available. No "PK" or 

> >"MK"...
> >
> >
> >#
> ># Gray Partitioning Information
> >#
> >N_OF_GRAY_PARTS=2
> >GRAY_INK_1=K 
> >GRAY_VAL_1=100 
> >
> >GRAY_INK_2=LK
> >GRAY_VAL_2=32 
> >
> >GRAY_INK_3=
> >GRAY_VAL_3=
> >
> >GRAY_INK_4=
> >GRAY_VAL_4=
> >
> >GRAY_INK_5=
> >GRAY_VAL_5=
> >
> >GRAY_INK_6=
> >GRAY_VAL_6=
> >
> >GRAY_INK_7=
> >GRAY_VAL_7=
> >
> >  
> >
> John, thank you,
> 
> 7 channels then for QTR.  A higher bid from the other RIPs ?
> 
> 
> Ernst

Sorry. I don't have time to read every post on this subject.  But to 
answer a quick question.  I've heard that it's a firmware option that 
hasn't migrated to the US yet. MAKE SURE YOU CHECK THIS OUT!!!! I 
repeat. I heard this from a friend in the industry and haven't found 
the firmware yet. They have duel CMYK in Japan (I believe the SP4000 
has a totally different name there).

On a secondary route, StudioPrint lets you double ink channels and 
print to any channel you want. So yes. As long as you switch your bags 
and can build a straight CMYK profile, you're cool. As far as true 
on-the-fly Quadtone + Color printing is concerned, you need one more 
channel  for K, K1, K2, K3 ---  C, M, Lc, Lm, Y  However, you can run 
duel quadtone inksets with one split toner . . . that's hot.

ahh for the day that Epson will come out with its ninth channel for pro 
users (May? SP8000?).  Their print-heads are way better than any of the 
competition . . . . .

But I'm just spewing. Make sure you check this out before you spread it 
around because I haven't checked up on it yet.


take care, Walker Blackwell


On Apr 4, 2005, at 12:31 PM, Louis Dina wrote:

>
>  Ernst,
>
>  I just downloaded some 4000 profiles from the Bowhaus website.� I
>  opened up the profiles in IJC and there are only 7 ink positions
>  listed at any one time.� There is a checkbox at the bottom of the
>  screen which allows the user to select EITHER Photo Black OR Matte
>  Black ink.� So, it appears you can select one or the other, but not
>  both at the same time.�
>
>  I don't own a 4000, so I am making an educated guess, but that seems
>  fairly solid.� Whether this is a hardware limitation or not, I am not
>  sure.� Perhaps Bowhaus just figured nobody would want to use all 8
>  slits at once, but I doubt it.� They know very well that many people
>  will want to try different inksets.
>
>  FWIW, Lou
>
>  --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Ernst Dinkla
>  <E.Dinkla@c...> wrote:
>  > John Vitollo wrote:
>  >
>  > >
>  > >I looked at a few of the 4000 matte profiles - in their text form -
>  and it looks like there is
>  > >no line to designate between "photo" or "matte" black...only "K"
>  is listed.
>  > >
>  > >I think Photo Black or Matte Black can only be chosen by the
>  driver and not the profile with
>  > >the 4000.
>  > >
>  > >Here's a partial copy and paste of a 4000 Enhance Matte profile in
>  text form (that's before
>  > >it gets converted into a .quad profile) Notice only "K" and "LK"
>  are available. No "PK" or
>  > >"MK"...
>  > >
>  > >
>  > >#
>  > ># Gray Partitioning Information
>  > >#
>  > >N_OF_GRAY_PARTS=2
>  > >GRAY_INK_1=K
>  > >GRAY_VAL_1=100
>  > >
>  > >GRAY_INK_2=LK
>  > >GRAY_VAL_2=32
>  > >
>  > >GRAY_INK_3=
>  > >GRAY_VAL_3=
>  > >
>  > >GRAY_INK_4=
>  > >GRAY_VAL_4=
>  > >
>  > >GRAY_INK_5=
>  > >GRAY_VAL_5=
>  > >
>  > >GRAY_INK_6=
>  > >GRAY_VAL_6=
>  > >
>  > >GRAY_INK_7=
>  > >GRAY_VAL_7=
>  > >
>  > >�
>  > >
>  > John, thank you,
>  >
>  > 7 channels then for QTR.� A higher bid from the other RIPs ?
>  >
>  >
>  > Ernst
>
>
>
>
>
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Steve,

> I'm surprised that a "photo" paper would be given more ink than a "matte"
> paper.  ...

In the latest February 14, 2005, Wilhelm 9600 report, Epson Premium Glossy
Photo Paper (250) also has the longest dark storage life, at ">300 years."


The primary target of Epson appears to be the color glossy print.  This is
an amazing technology that appears to be evolving more quickly than the
matte papers. 
 
______________________ 

> 
> > From: Paul Roark <paul.roark@...>
> 
> >
> > I just put a PK chip on my 7600 MK cart so that I could have the full
> paper
> > type list available.  This has allowed me to raise the 7600 matte dmax
> up to
> > competitive levels.  EEM is now at 1.65.
> >
>

Walker Blackwell wrote:

>Sorry. I don't have time to read every post on this subject.  But to 
>answer a quick question.  I've heard that it's a firmware option that 
>hasn't migrated to the US yet. MAKE SURE YOU CHECK THIS OUT!!!! I 
>repeat. I heard this from a friend in the industry and haven't found 
>the firmware yet. They have duel CMYK in Japan (I believe the SP4000 
>has a totally different name there).
>  
>

The dual CMYK 4000 was announced in Europe right with the introduction 
of the 4000.  It may be an even more limited machine if the two sides 
are approached as a single CMYK printer. Just more nozzles per CMYK 
channel to speed things up.

>On a secondary route, StudioPrint lets you double ink channels and 
>print to any channel you want. So yes. As long as you switch your bags 
>and can build a straight CMYK profile, you're cool. As far as true 
>on-the-fly Quadtone + Color printing is concerned, you need one more 
>channel  for K, K1, K2, K3 ---  C, M, Lc, Lm, Y  However, you can run 
>duel quadtone inksets with one split toner . . . that's hot.
>  
>
Many RIPs also have a CMYK driver for CcMmYK printers. If the CMYK inks 
keep their normal place you can use two greys on the cm channels. With 
QTR that allows tritone? printing + toning with the CMY channels. The 
other RIP can use the normal CMYK inks for color printing. This is 
possible on the 7000 up to the 10000.  My Wasatch SoftRip has that mode. 
and with some tweaking I can print the tritone side as well but QTR is 
much better for that. Toning with the full CMY inks isn't wise on the 
9000, the dots show too much. There must be something similar for the 
7600 and 9600 but I have not checked whether that excludes the grey ink 
in CMYK printing like it does exclude the cm inks. I know one RIP that 
will exclude the grey ink on the UC printers, the Scanvec Amiable RIP 
but that is because they still have no driver that uses the grey ink at 
all ;-)   My friend Bernard is pissed about that, 3 years after he 
purchased the RIP + the profile creator and 2 years after he bought two 
9600's he still can not use the RIP for the printers. That's the support 
you get from some RIP manufacturers.

Ernst

Paul Roark wrote:

>  
>
>>OPM/IJC the Bowhaus RIP can control any of the inks in any combination.
>>So I can see no reason why you could not profile IJC to use all three
>>black carts at the same time. ...
>>    
>>
>
>I don't believe QTR or IJC can utilize both the matte and glossy (photo)
>black inks at the same time.  I think the decision is made by firmware or
>hardware that may still be out of reach.
>
>"Media type" limitations of the newer UltraChrome printers is also a
>problem.  The 4000 may actually sense the paper type.
>
>I just put a PK chip on my 7600 MK cart so that I could have the full paper
>type list available.  This has allowed me to raise the 7600 matte dmax up to
>competitive levels.  EEM is now at 1.65.
>
>Paul
>www.PaulRoark.com 
>
>  
>
The first thing that crossed my mind when I did see the specs of the 
4000 in a Dutch magazine was 'will it use all the KKk inks in matte 
printing'. That Epson didn't think of that concept shows how little 
comes through in R&D from the Epson lurkers on this list. They are on 
the lists as we have seen from time to time when their mailer goes on 
automatic while they are on the beach.

To change to PK and back on the 10000 (MIS 7600 inkset) I can use the 
same method. To spill less ink I have also made a 'sucking cart'. Bag is 
removed from the cart and a tube is attached to the valve instead. The 
head carriage is parked in the middle (cutter change mode) and the power 
cable taken out.  Matte black cart out, sucker one in, ink pumped out 
through that cart into a wine bottle by a small vacuum pump. PK cart in 
(matte chip), vacuum pump at the waste tube side this time + pushing in 
the electric inkline valve and the inkline is filled without loss of any 
other ink. The last filling can be done otherwise too, the 10000 checks 
whether the nozzles actually squirt by using a laser beam and a sensor, 
if there is no black squirted it will pump the head till the black 
comes. The 10000 has three capping stations and three wiper blades, one 
set per two heads so black + cyan (I think) can be pumped separately 
from the rest.

Ernst

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Walker Blackwell
<lists@g...> wrote:
...
> On a secondary route, StudioPrint lets you double ink channels and 
> print to any channel you want....

But the question is whether or not they have bypassed the MK vrs PK
limitation and truely given you access to do whatever you want with
all 8 tanks. It would take a 4000/StudioPrint user to tell us.
Additionally, if one were to do a tri-K, plus all the UC color inks
(which 8 channels would allow) I would think Cone and MIS have some K
and lighter K ink sets far more applicable than the Epson Mk, Pk, LtK
set. The density spread of those inks would not take the best
advantage of a smooth dot free 3 part K.
Tyler

Agreed. The difference between Matte K and Photo K is not dilution.  
It's the chemical makeup and how it lays on the paper . .  . . . 
Therefore, it doesn't really work. Yes. StudioPrint does give you 
access to all eight tanks and you could double your Black ink and run 
both K channels at once . . . So Tri-K is an option. I guess 
StudioPrint + other RIPs support tri-tone black inks + CMLmCLcY setups 
. . . That's an option. And it would make wonderful  prints . . . QTR?  
What do you think?


<snip<

>  But the question is whether or not they have bypassed the MK vrs PK
>  limitation and truely given you access to do whatever you want with
>  all 8 tanks. It would take a 4000/StudioPrint user to tell us.
>  Additionally, if one were to do a tri-K, plus all the UC color inks
>  (which 8 channels would allow) I would think Cone and MIS have some K
>  and lighter K ink sets far more applicable than the Epson Mk, Pk, LtK
>  set. The density spread of those inks would not take the best
>  advantage of a smooth dot free 3 part K.
>  Tyler
>

Is the inability to simultaneously utilize the two K positions of the 
4000 using either QTR or IJC/OPM a gimp based limitation that other 
RIPs do not have?

On Apr 4, 2005, at 7:08 PM, Walker Blackwell wrote:

>
> Agreed. The difference between Matte K and Photo K is not dilution.
> It's the chemical makeup and how it lays on the paper . .  . . .
> Therefore, it doesn't really work. Yes. StudioPrint does give you
> access to all eight tanks and you could double your Black ink and run
> both K channels at once . . . So Tri-K is an option. I guess
> StudioPrint + other RIPs support tri-tone black inks + CMLmCLcY setups
> . . . That's an option. And it would make wonderful  prints . . . QTR?
> What do you think?
>
>
> <snip<
>>  But the question is whether or not they have bypassed the MK vrs PK
>>  limitation and truely given you access to do whatever you want with
>>  all 8 tanks. It would take a 4000/StudioPrint user to tell us.
>>  Additionally, if one were to do a tri-K, plus all the UC color inks
>>  (which 8 channels would allow) I would think Cone and MIS have some K
>>  and lighter K ink sets far more applicable than the Epson Mk, Pk, LtK
>>  set. The density spread of those inks would not take the best
>>  advantage of a smooth dot free 3 part K.
>>  Tyler
>>

I don't know about IJC, but I believe QTR doesn't bypass the engine 
inside the printer that converts from RGB -> CMYK. Thus, the actual 
firmware inside the printer doesn't let the double k printing. You'll 
need a true CMYK RIP to run duel k because it bypasses the engine 
inside the printer . . . + the RIP needs to let you duplicate channels.

Am I right?  Correct me if I'm wrong on this point QTR people.

take care, Walker



On Apr 4, 2005, at 06:27 PM, Carl Schofield wrote:

> Is the inability to simultaneously utilize the two K positions of the
>  4000 using either QTR or IJC/OPM a gimp based limitation that other
>  RIPs do not have?
>
>
>  On Apr 4, 2005, at 7:08 PM, Walker Blackwell wrote:
>
>  >
>  > Agreed. The difference between Matte K and Photo K is not dilution.
>  > It's the chemical makeup and how it lays on the paper . .� . . .
>  > Therefore, it doesn't really work. Yes. StudioPrint does give you
>  > access to all eight tanks and you could double your Black ink and 
> run
>  > both K channels at once . . . So Tri-K is an option. I guess
>  > StudioPrint + other RIPs support tri-tone black inks + CMLmCLcY 
> setups
>  > . . . That's an option. And it would make wonderful� prints . . . 
> QTR?
>  > What do you think?
>  >
>  >
>  > <snip<
>  >>� But the question is whether or not they have bypassed the MK vrs 
> PK
>  >>� limitation and truely given you access to do whatever you want 
> with
>  >>� all 8 tanks. It would take a 4000/StudioPrint user to tell us.
>  >>� Additionally, if one were to do a tri-K, plus all the UC color 
> inks
>  >>� (which 8 channels would allow) I would think Cone and MIS have 
> some K
>  >>� and lighter K ink sets far more applicable than the Epson Mk, Pk, 
> LtK
>  >>� set. The density spread of those inks would not take the best
>  >>� advantage of a smooth dot free 3 part K.
>  >>� Tyler
>  >>
>
>
>
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I think Roy and Joe will have to answer this question.  Colorburst is 
also a true CMYK RIP but apparently they have also not found a way to 
use a dual K mode (see comment in link below) with the 4000.

http://tinyurl.com/6lxe6

Carl

On Apr 4, 2005, at 7:36 PM, Walker Blackwell wrote:

>
> I don't know about IJC, but I believe QTR doesn't bypass the engine
> inside the printer that converts from RGB -> CMYK. Thus, the actual
> firmware inside the printer doesn't let the double k printing. You'll
> need a true CMYK RIP to run duel k because it bypasses the engine
> inside the printer . . . + the RIP needs to let you duplicate channels.
>
> Am I right?  Correct me if I'm wrong on this point QTR people.
>
> take care, Walker
>
>
>
> On Apr 4, 2005, at 06:27 PM, Carl Schofield wrote:
>
>> Is the inability to simultaneously utilize the two K positions of the
>>  4000 using either QTR or IJC/OPM a gimp based limitation that other
>>  RIPs do not have?
>>
>>
>>  On Apr 4, 2005, at 7:08 PM, Walker Blackwell wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Agreed. The difference between Matte K and Photo K is not dilution.
>>> It's the chemical makeup and how it lays on the paper . .  . . .
>>> Therefore, it doesn't really work. Yes. StudioPrint does give you
>>> access to all eight tanks and you could double your Black ink and
>> run
>>> both K channels at once . . . So Tri-K is an option. I guess
>>> StudioPrint + other RIPs support tri-tone black inks + CMLmCLcY
>> setups
>>> . . . That's an option. And it would make wonderful  prints . . .
>> QTR?
>>> What do you think?
>>>
>>>
>>> <snip<
>>>>   But the question is whether or not they have bypassed the MK vrs
>> PK
>>>>   limitation and truely given you access to do whatever you want
>> with
>>>>   all 8 tanks. It would take a 4000/StudioPrint user to tell us.
>>>>   Additionally, if one were to do a tri-K, plus all the UC color
>> inks
>>>>   (which 8 channels would allow) I would think Cone and MIS have
>> some K
>>>>   and lighter K ink sets far more applicable than the Epson Mk, Pk,
>> LtK
>>>>   set. The density spread of those inks would not take the best
>>>>   advantage of a smooth dot free 3 part K.
>>>>   Tyler
>>>>
  
  

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

The basic, low-level commands to the 4000 do not allow you to use
both matte K and photo K on the same page.  It has nothing to do with
any of the RIPS.  All drivers or RIPS treat the printer as a 7 ink printer
while printing a page.  The selection of which black is to be used is
determined in the initial setup for a page -- once the black is selected
only that black ink can be used for the entire page.   This is not something
that can be gotten around unless Epson changes their firmware in a way
that would be incompatible with the existing interface -- so it's unlikely.

BTW, this is in contrast to the R800 which allows all 8 inks to be used on a page.

Roy

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Carl Schofield 
<scho@m...> wrote:

> I think Roy and Joe will have to answer this question.  Colorburst is 
> also a true CMYK RIP but apparently they have also not found a way to 
> use a dual K mode (see comment in link below) with the 4000.
> 
> http://tinyurl.com/6lxe6
> 
> Carl
> 
> On Apr 4, 2005, at 7:36 PM, Walker Blackwell wrote:
> 
> >
> > I don't know about IJC, but I believe QTR doesn't bypass the engine
> > inside the printer that converts from RGB -> CMYK. Thus, the actual
> > firmware inside the printer doesn't let the double k printing. You'll
> > need a true CMYK RIP to run duel k because it bypasses the engine
> > inside the printer . . . + the RIP needs to let you duplicate channels.
> >
> > Am I right?  Correct me if I'm wrong on this point QTR people.
> >
> > take care, Walker
> >
> >
> >
> > On Apr 4, 2005, at 06:27 PM, Carl Schofield wrote:
> >
> >> Is the inability to simultaneously utilize the two K positions of the
> >>  4000 using either QTR or IJC/OPM a gimp based limitation that other
> >>  RIPs do not have?
> >>
> >>
> >>  On Apr 4, 2005, at 7:08 PM, Walker Blackwell wrote:
> >>
> >>>
> >>> Agreed. The difference between Matte K and Photo K is not dilution.
> >>> It's the chemical makeup and how it lays on the paper . .  . . .
> >>> Therefore, it doesn't really work. Yes. StudioPrint does give you
> >>> access to all eight tanks and you could double your Black ink and
> >> run
> >>> both K channels at once . . . So Tri-K is an option. I guess
> >>> StudioPrint + other RIPs support tri-tone black inks + CMLmCLcY
> >> setups
> >>> . . . That's an option. And it would make wonderful  prints . . .
> >> QTR?
> >>> What do you think?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> <snip<
> >>>>   But the question is whether or not they have bypassed the MK vrs
> >> PK
> >>>>   limitation and truely given you access to do whatever you want
> >> with
> >>>>   all 8 tanks. It would take a 4000/StudioPrint user to tell us.
> >>>>   Additionally, if one were to do a tri-K, plus all the UC color
> >> inks
> >>>>   (which 8 channels would allow) I would think Cone and MIS have
> >> some K
> >>>>   and lighter K ink sets far more applicable than the Epson Mk, Pk,
> >> LtK
> >>>>   set. The density spread of those inks would not take the best
> >>>>   advantage of a smooth dot free 3 part K.
> >>>>   Tyler
> >>>>
>   
>   
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Got it. Good point. Thanks. Walker

On Apr 4, 2005, at 09:12 PM, Roy Harrington wrote:

>
>
>  The basic, low-level commands to the 4000 do not allow you to use
>  both matte K and photo K on the same page.� It has nothing to do with
>  any of the RIPS.� All drivers or RIPS treat the printer as a 7 ink 
> printer
>  while printing a page.� The selection of which black is to be used is
>  determined in the initial setup for a page -- once the black is 
> selected
>  only that black ink can be used for the entire page.�� This is not 
> something
>  that can be gotten around unless Epson changes their firmware in a way
>  that would be incompatible with the existing interface -- so it's 
> unlikely.
>
>  BTW, this is in contrast to the R800 which allows all 8 inks to be 
> used on a page.
>
>  Roy
>
>  --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Carl Schofield
>  <scho@m...> wrote:
>  > I think Roy and Joe will have to answer this question.� Colorburst 
> is
>  > also a true CMYK RIP but apparently they have also not found a way 
> to
>  > use a dual K mode (see comment in link below) with the 4000.
>  >
>  > http://tinyurl.com/6lxe6
>  >
>  > Carl
>  >
>  > On Apr 4, 2005, at 7:36 PM, Walker Blackwell wrote:
>  >
>  > >
>  > > I don't know about IJC, but I believe QTR doesn't bypass the 
> engine
>  > > inside the printer that converts from RGB -> CMYK. Thus, the 
> actual
>  > > firmware inside the printer doesn't let the double k printing. 
> You'll
>  > > need a true CMYK RIP to run duel k because it bypasses the engine
>  > > inside the printer . . . + the RIP needs to let you duplicate 
> channels.
>  > >
>  > > Am I right?� Correct me if I'm wrong on this point QTR people.
>  > >
>  > > take care, Walker
>  > >
>  > >
>  > >
>  > > On Apr 4, 2005, at 06:27 PM, Carl Schofield wrote:
>  > >
>  > >> Is the inability to simultaneously utilize the two K positions 
> of the
>  > >>� 4000 using either QTR or IJC/OPM a gimp based limitation that 
> other
>  > >>� RIPs do not have?
>  > >>
>  > >>
>  > >>� On Apr 4, 2005, at 7:08 PM, Walker Blackwell wrote:
>  > >>
>  > >>>
>  > >>> Agreed. The difference between Matte K and Photo K is not 
> dilution.
>  > >>> It's the chemical makeup and how it lays on the paper . .� . . .
>  > >>> Therefore, it doesn't really work. Yes. StudioPrint does give 
> you
>  > >>> access to all eight tanks and you could double your Black ink 
> and
>  > >> run
>  > >>> both K channels at once . . . So Tri-K is an option. I guess
>  > >>> StudioPrint + other RIPs support tri-tone black inks + CMLmCLcY
>  > >> setups
>  > >>> . . . That's an option. And it would make wonderful� prints . . 
> .
>  > >> QTR?
>  > >>> What do you think?
>  > >>>
>  > >>>
>  > >>> <snip<
>  > >>>> � But the question is whether or not they have bypassed the MK 
> vrs
>  > >> PK
>  > >>>> � limitation and truely given you access to do whatever you 
> want
>  > >> with
>  > >>>> � all 8 tanks. It would take a 4000/StudioPrint user to tell 
> us.
>  > >>>> � Additionally, if one were to do a tri-K, plus all the UC 
> color
>  > >> inks
>  > >>>> � (which 8 channels would allow) I would think Cone and MIS 
> have
>  > >> some K
>  > >>>> � and lighter K ink sets far more applicable than the Epson 
> Mk, Pk,
>  > >> LtK
>  > >>>> � set. The density spread of those inks would not take the best
>  > >>>> � advantage of a smooth dot free 3 part K.
>  > >>>> � Tyler
>  > >>>>
>  >��
>  >��
>  >
>  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other 
> resources as they are often being updated.
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
>  If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish 
> to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting 
> this same page.
>
>  Please follow these basic guidelines:
>  - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to 
> keep them short.
>  - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or 
> flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from 
> the membership without notice.
>  - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital 
> B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be 
> removed from the membership.
>  - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and 
> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group 
> Owner and Moderators. See �Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines� in the 
> Files section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
>
>  BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE 
> PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE �OWNER� 
> AND �MODERATORS� OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE 
> LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, 
> CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, 
> DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE 
> LOSSES (EVEN IF THE� �OWNER� AND �MODERATORS� OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT 
> YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), 
> RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, 
> THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF 
> YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD 
> PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER 
> MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> 	� 	To visit your group on the web, go to:
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> �
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>  

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Walker Blackwell wrote:

>I don't know about IJC, but I believe QTR doesn't bypass the engine 
>inside the printer that converts from RGB -> CMYK. Thus, the actual 
>firmware inside the printer doesn't let the double k printing. You'll 
>need a true CMYK RIP to run duel k because it bypasses the engine 
>inside the printer . . . + the RIP needs to let you duplicate channels.
>
>Am I right?  Correct me if I'm wrong on this point QTR people.
>
>  
>
The RGB > CMYK is done in the driver or the RIP and not in the firmware. 
A true CMYK RIP will accept CMYK data as input (and usually RGB as well) 
and will not convert it to RGB and then again to CMYK internally like 
the Epson driver does. The CMYK data fed can go straight to the printer 
after a channel split or get an CMYK printer profile treatment in the 
RIP before it goes to the printer (proof printing).

QTR is a different specie altogether.

Ernst

I meant I was surprised that a driver would commit more ink to photo paper
than to matte paper for any given area.  I would have thought that the matte
paper would and could take more load.  Hence a move to a photo paper setting
would have, I would have thought, reduced the ink load.

> From: Paul Roark <paul.roark@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Mon, 04 Apr 2005 10:52:04 -0700
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: RE: [Digital BW] PK chip on an MK cart
> 
> 
> 
> Steve,
> 
>> I'm surprised that a "photo" paper would be given more ink than a "matte"
>> paper.  ...
> 
> In the latest February 14, 2005, Wilhelm 9600 report, Epson Premium Glossy
> Photo Paper (250) also has the longest dark storage life, at ">300 years."
> 
> 
> The primary target of Epson appears to be the color glossy print.  This is
> an amazing technology that appears to be evolving more quickly than the
> matte papers. 
>

I queried Joe Berndt at Bowhaus about the Epson 4000 and he said that 
the 4000 appears to be hard wired for either the MK or PK ink.  He 
said he hasn't found a way around it yet.  FWIW.

Lou

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Ernst Dinkla 
<E.Dinkla@c...> wrote:
> Walker Blackwell wrote:
> 
> >I don't know about IJC, but I believe QTR doesn't bypass the 
engine 
> >inside the printer that converts from RGB -> CMYK. Thus, the 
actual 
> >firmware inside the printer doesn't let the double k printing. 
You'll 
> >need a true CMYK RIP to run duel k because it bypasses the engine 
> >inside the printer . . . + the RIP needs to let you duplicate 
channels.
> >
> >Am I right?  Correct me if I'm wrong on this point QTR people.
> >
> >  
> >
> The RGB > CMYK is done in the driver or the RIP and not in the 
firmware. 
> A true CMYK RIP will accept CMYK data as input (and usually RGB as 
well) 
> and will not convert it to RGB and then again to CMYK internally 
like 
> the Epson driver does. The CMYK data fed can go straight to the 
printer 
> after a channel split or get an CMYK printer profile treatment in 
the 

> RIP before it goes to the printer (proof printing).
> 
> QTR is a different specie altogether.
> 
> Ernst