Digital BW, The Print

I've been been making some large prints, up to 44" x44" on the new Innova Soft 
Texture paper this weekend. I am VERY happy that this media is on the market at 
such reasonable cost. Very similar to German Etching but without the scuffing and 
flaking. This is great durable stuff. The brighter Soft Cotton with a smoother texture 
is excellent also. I have a feeling that these are going to end up being my primary 
papers for quad and color pigment work. We may be seeing the birth of a truely great 
American paper company for the 21st century.I hope they end up making one that is 
very warm in base color if that is possible.

Anyone who is curious should contact Jim Doyle at Shades Of Paper and pick up 
some 8.5"x11" samples. We are very lucky to have these products on the market.

John

>We may be seeing the birth of a truly great
> American paper company for the 21st century.

I'm not sure, but I think Innova is an international company.  Check the
contact list.  You might find a Google of Martin Koepenick of Innova
International gets to some interesting articles that give more insight.  The
paper you and others are beginning to like so much might also have a
striking resemblance to the PermaJet papers I've been enthused about.  (Too
bad Jobo doesn't don't know how to market it in the U.S.)

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: john dean [mailto:deanwork2003@...]
> Sent: Sunday, April 10, 2005 7:43 AM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Digital BW] Great new fine art papers from Innova
> 
> 
> 
> I've been been making some large prints, up to 44" x44" on the new Innova
> Soft
> Texture paper this weekend. I am VERY happy that this media is on the
> market at
> such reasonable cost. Very similar to German Etching but without the
> scuffing and
> flaking. This is great durable stuff. The brighter Soft Cotton with a
> smoother texture
> is excellent also. I have a feeling that these are going to end up being
> my primary
> papers for quad and color pigment work. We may be seeing the birth of a
> truely great
> American paper company for the 21st century.I hope they end up making one
> that is
> very warm in base color if that is possible.
> 
> Anyone who is curious should contact Jim Doyle at Shades Of Paper and pick
> up
> some 8.5"x11" samples. We are very lucky to have these products on the
> market.
> 
> John
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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I tested the same papers for black and white and really liked them.  I haven't had the time to test for color, but I suspect I will be pleased for that purpose too.  Maybe week after next---I'm in the middle of 4 major shoots, processing, etc.--just home for a day for some processing and then off again.  

Thanks to Jim who was so nice to deal with at shadesofpaper.com.  

Diane

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: john dean 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Sunday, April 10, 2005 11:42 AM
  Subject: [Digital BW] Great new fine art papers from Innova



  I've been been making some large prints, up to 44" x44" on the new Innova Soft 
  Texture paper this weekend. I am VERY happy that this media is on the market at 
  such reasonable cost. Very similar to German Etching but without the scuffing and 
  flaking. This is great durable stuff. The brighter Soft Cotton with a smoother texture 
  is excellent also. I have a feeling that these are going to end up being my primary 
  papers for quad and color pigment work. We may be seeing the birth of a truely great 
  American paper company for the 21st century.I hope they end up making one that is 
  very warm in base color if that is possible.

  Anyone who is curious should contact Jim Doyle at Shades Of Paper and pick up 
  some 8.5"x11" samples. We are very lucky to have these products on the market.

  John





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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Has anyone had a chance to make a compairison to the Mohab 
papers. I'm using the Entrada Natural and like it although at times I 
get a feeling that the image is on top of the paper instead if in the 
paper. Does the Innova paper feel as though the ink is in the paper, 
more like a photogravure.

John H


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Diane Fields" 
<picnic@c...> wrote:
> I tested the same papers for black and white and really liked 
them.  I haven't had the time to test for color, but I suspect I will 
be pleased for that purpose too.  Maybe week after next---I'm in the 
middle of 4 major shoots, processing, etc.--just home for a day for 
some processing and then off again.  
> 
> Thanks to Jim who was so nice to deal with at shadesofpaper.com.  
> 
> Diane
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
>   From: john dean 
>   To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
>   Sent: Sunday, April 10, 2005 11:42 AM
>   Subject: [Digital BW] Great new fine art papers from Innova
> 
> 
> 
>   I've been been making some large prints, up to 44" x44" on the 
new Innova Soft 
>   Texture paper this weekend. I am VERY happy that this media is on 
the market at 
>   such reasonable cost. Very similar to German Etching but without 
the scuffing and 
>   flaking. This is great durable stuff. The brighter Soft Cotton 
with a smoother texture 
>   is excellent also. I have a feeling that these are going to end 
up being my primary 
>   papers for quad and color pigment work. We may be seeing the 
birth of a truely great 
>   American paper company for the 21st century.I hope they end up 
making one that is 
>   very warm in base color if that is possible.
> 
>   Anyone who is curious should contact Jim Doyle at Shades Of Paper 
and pick up 
>   some 8.5"x11" samples. We are very lucky to have these products 
on the market.
> 
>   John
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>   Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other 
resources as they are often being updated.
> 
>   http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
>   If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you 
wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by 
visiting this same page.
> 
>   Please follow these basic guidelines:
>   - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier 
messages to keep them short.
>   - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or 
flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed 
from the membership without notice.
>   - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of 
digital B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may 
be removed from the membership.
>   - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules 
and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the 
group Owner and Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" 
in the Files section:
>   http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> 
>   BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, 
THE PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT 
THE "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP 
SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, 
SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT 
LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER 
INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL 
BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF 
SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE 
THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR 
ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT 
OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) 
ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> 
> 
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> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Personally, one of the few high-end rag papers that I haven't tried is the Mohab
rag .From what I can remember people saying on this list, Mahab had very good
dmax and tonal qualities but scuffs and flakes easily, in the blacks especially.
Others can comment on this.

I know an artist in Ny who does contemporary photogravures from a traditionally
run studio in Mass. Her work is really unphotographic and extremely flat and
softand is closer to gum prints or van dyke brown prints than modern photographic
processes.

If you really want to achive that look I would suggest printing with one of the
Ultrachrome type printers or using quad set and outputting onto uncoated rag
paper, like Arches Cover or Reves BFK or something like that. I know an
illustrator here in Atlanta who scans her illustrations and prints out of a 2200 on 
uncoated

Arches and this work is very nice, soft and smooth, but not what I would call
muddy with undefined contours. There is a lot you can do that way, even with
photographs. I think I could fake a Stieglitz gravure with the right paper and the right
inkload.

With the Innova papers apparently the deal is that they are double coated,
giving them much greater durability and avoiding that really tender surface so
common with papers like Hahnemuhle, Lumijet, and Lyson.

As to the surface look they are very similar to Hahnemuhle Photo Rag and German
Etching. The more texture the paper has the more it looks like old printmaking
processes in my opinon. I just did a job on H. William Turner with a monochrome
hue warm neutral and laid down with lot of very dense black. The originals were
scanned from 8x10 paper negatives. This paper soaked it up like no other paper I
use. The Innova papers are very similar but some what less textured than W
Turner. The softness is determined by how you design your file and how much ink 
you lay down in the shadow end. Turner has to be sprayed unless your gonna stick 
it right behind glass. Its tender too. 


John

>
> Has anyone had a chance to make a compairison to the Mohab
> papers. I'm using the Entrada Natural and like it although at times I
> get a feeling that the image is on top of the paper instead if in the
> paper. Does the Innova paper feel as though the ink is in the paper,
> more like a photogravure.
>
> John H

It's funny, I think German Etching is a very durable paper, and very 
waterproof. Photo Rag is slightly more fragile. The Innova stuff was 
good, but still not quite what I get from GE with my inks (eboni 
black). Also something to note, the Innova papers are not rated as a 
water resistant material, just like so many other fine art papers, so 
don't bother trying it you'll waste your time. Maybe that is not a 
big concern for you, but something worth knowing in case a customer 
asks. I will say that the three Innova papers I tried came the 
closest to matching the gamut I get from German Etching that I've 
seen in a long time (from non Hahnemuhle papers), they are a good 
looking set of papers. If you haven't tried them yet, you really 
should order a sample pack.

I don't know what you are talking about? I've been using German Etching for 5 
years with all kinds of inksets, and it is a fine beautuful paper, a beautuful paper that 
scratches, scuffs,and flakes like nothing I've ever seen. Water resistant? Are you 
kidding? Not in my experience unless you spray it with three coats of Premier Art. 
I've done a lot of big things with it for years, like 30x40's, 20x24's, and 40x60's and 
believe me if you breathe on it in the wrong way it will flake in the blacks, same with 
one of my all time favourite papers that I used for 10  20x24's  this week with 
monochrome, William Turner. Fantastic deep blacks, gorgeous tonality, awsome 
texture, but tender as a little babys butt. 

John
'

> 
> It's funny, I think German Etching is a very durable paper, and very 
> waterproof. Photo Rag is slightly more fragile.

The last roll of Etching I bought has been great, zero flaking, and 
yes waterproof. The ink does not budge unless you rub it after the 
paper is soaked. Same goes for Photo Rag 188gsm (haven't tested the 
308gsm), the ink does not spread. I did the same on some Intelicoat 
Magiclee canvas recently except I measured a profile target just 
before, and after an hour of soaking in hot water, and spraying with 
hot water for another twenty minutes (measured when dry again). The 
profiles generated were nearly identical before and after. And before 
anyone launches into how stupid and what a huge waste of time this 
type of testing is, I don't really care what your opinion is, this is 
valuable to me, so keep it to yourself. (prompted be reactions from a 
previous post about water testing)

I haven't actually measured the GE after a soaking, but visually it 
does not change. And as far as fragile goes, we must have different 
definitions of fragile, if handled in a careful way I have no 
problems, no need to be extra careful though, and no need to seal it 
in laquer. I have no problem with blacks that scuff more easily than 
other colors, but I do remember that from when I was using one of the 
dye/pigment hybrid matte black inks that most people are using. And 
of course with that type matte black, any water on the paper is going 
to cause a problem. You might consider testing some of the Eboni 
black, and its light black partner. Both are said to be more neutral 
than other all pigment blacks (the full black is more neutral). Or 
you might try the new "better" than UltraChrome replacement inks that 
may not be listed on the MIS site. I'm getting slightly deeper black 
than the Eboni I had loaded a few days ago. May just be a fluke, but 
maybe a slightly better black and still no ink spread when water is 
applied even when the print has only dried for an hour. I'll be doing 
more testing on this new ink set as time permits. If you aren't 
getting water resistant prints on those Hahnemuhle papers, there are 
only two things that could be wrong. One would be your water, if you 
can drink it without gagging, then it is probably OK. Two would be 
your inks, don't know what to tell you about those. Not saying that 
what I have been using is superior in every way, but on some papers 
they at least aren't losing anything. On some they do not perform as 
well as certain other types of pigment ink. There are always trade 
offs.

And at this point you can either believe me or not, it matters not to 
me as this is very likely the last time I report any of my testing 
results.

One more thing, were you trying to impress me with the size of your 
prints? Big deal, I can print 44 wide too, and I've been using 
pigment inks long before Epson ever started to work on a printer that 
used them as stock.

And if flaking is a huge problem for you, you could always mount a 
brush across the width of your printer, and let it brush off the 
paper while it feeds into the printer.

And agian, the Innova papers are a fine paper, but at the moment I 
still get better results from the Hahnemuhle papers. Eventually, I 
have a feeling that I'll be talking directly to the chemists at 
Innova so that we may improve their papers even more than they 
already have. My initial comments have already been relayed to them, 
and as I do more testing, addition comments and information will get 
to them too.

At 04:19 +0000 13.4.2005, dfaprinting wrote:
*******************************************

>And agian, the Innova papers are a fine paper, but at the moment I
>still get better results from the Hahnemuhle papers. Eventually, I
>have a feeling that I'll be talking directly to the chemists at
>Innova

BTW - aren't the owners of Innova former Hahnemuehle employes?

Martin
--

Martin Sluka wrote:

>At 04:19 +0000 13.4.2005, dfaprinting wrote:
>*******************************************
>
>  
>
>>And agian, the Innova papers are a fine paper, but at the moment I
>>still get better results from the Hahnemuhle papers. Eventually, I
>>have a feeling that I'll be talking directly to the chemists at
>>Innova
>>    
>>
>
>BTW - aren't the owners of Innova former Hahnemuehle employes?
>
>Martin
>  
>

Wayne Connelly, If I remember it correctly he worked for Hahnemuhle USA 
(Dia-Nielsen) 4 years ago. I have talked with him on the HM Drupa stand 
then. Mark Messina also a former HM man is the head of Innova Editions. 
There could be more like them.

Ernst

Sorry I left an impression that I was trying to "impress you". These days just
about anyone can do big prints on an Epson machine. That doesn't mean anything. 
What I was suggesting is that I've done a lot of prints that have very large areas with
significant black content for years, so I've seen more of the scuffing potential
of a lot of papers than if I had been dealing with smaller sizes. Although it is a
problem with them as well.

I do brush off the Hahnemuhle media before printing and that does help. Putting
a cleaning brush on the printer would not be wise because the fibers would end up
right down in the printer and in the heads, and this is exactly where you don't
want them.

I did not make up this problem with Hahnemuhle media flaking, scuffing, and
scratching easily. This issue has been discussed regulary on these yahoo lists
and around the world forever. To be fair, most of the fine inkjet papers out there
that have good dmax, surface and, absorption are tender also. Premier Art is one of
the few good papers that doesn't, but it's dmax is limiting, the rolls are thin, and it 
can do strange things to the color of monochrome work. But I still like Premier Art 
Hotpress for color work because of its sharpness.

What I relayed was just my personal day to day experience and impressions. Others
will surely have their own favourites and opinions. That's good. We don't want to all 
be using the same media or the same inksets. We NEED competition out there. I 
have not tested any of these papers scientifically. But, I think you will find in the 
months to come that a lot of people agree with me. Only time will tell.

John

No problem, I also forgot which list this was. The water testing got a 
few off hand remarks in the Epson wide format group, but I didn't 
realize that I was here and not there until after I sent it, which 
means it is to late. I really think you might want to try the Eboni 
black. Primarily the Etching is what I use, and have used for years. I 
do remember the scuffing problems, but it really is a little better 
with this ink. On some papers you will lose a little Dmax, but the loss 
is extremely small with the Hahnemuhle papers, at least compared to 
when I was running the Mediastreet G4 inks (dye/pigment black). When I 
get done testing this new ink, I'll let you know and maybe if you 
haven't tried this black I can print something for you to test (I'll 
even let you dunk it under water ;-] ). I should be finished by this 
weekend, I just have one or two things to check to make sure a problem 
is not caused by me, and then contact the manufacturer to see what they 
say. The black is the same, but the colors are much different (and may 
only work with a UC ink printer). Seems that there is way too much 
pigment for my old 9500 to handle, even after limiting and 
linearization are completed.

Your right. The inkset in question has a  big influence on both the water resistance 
as well as the scuffing situation with Hahnemuhle I imagine. I've had the abrasion 
hassles with Epson Archival, Epson Ultrachrome, Lyson Quads, and Piezzotone. I'd 
love to hear the resulsts of your tests. Unfortunately I don't have a lot of time for 
detailed testing myself these days. It seems never ending doesn't it? But it is not 
fun to have to spray everything.

I am still very curious about the Ebony black when combined with color pigments.
In my 10K I am still researching which inkset to convert it to. Apparently there has 
been  a big problem with leaking 3rd pary carts for this printer. This has stopped me 
in my tracks for the time being. This is one thing I don't need in my life right now. It 
is my impression that Media Street, Lyson, and MIS, all used the same Chinese 
made carts and that there were real quality control issues. It seemed no one else 
was interested in making these carts because of the limited need out there. This 
situation could have changed. I hope so because I really want the Media Street G 
Chromes in this printer and I am not going to cfs.

 Anyone from Media Street out there listening?

At that point I will research which black to use. Like Epson, Media Street now has a 
matte and a photo black for different media. Lyson has a universal black, and I 
assume they all have some dye in them. Don't know the answer to that either. There 
is a hell of a lot that I don't know about all this but Ebony sounds very promising.

John

I love German Etching, been using it for all kinds of things, color
and quads, for years since it first was avalable as Lyson Fine Art. I
don't find it any less delicate then the other H papers. Actually I
don't find the Innova papers that much less delicate.
There's just no getting around treating these prints well.
I intend to get into the entire Innova line enthusiastically, but both
German Etching and William Turner are very unique and I can't imagine
letting them go for now. PhotRpag on the other hand, may go by the
wayside. More use and testing will tell.
Tyler

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Tyler Boley" <tyler@t...> wrote:
> 
> I I intend to get into the entire Innova line enthusiastically, but both
> German Etching and William Turner are very unique and I can't imagine
> letting them go for now. PhotRpag on the other hand, may go by the
> wayside. More use and testing will tell.


Tyler, with the Innova paper, what are the differences between it and HRag?  Better blacks, 
midtones, or is it better for cerain tones (selenium, carbon, warm, or..)?

Thanks,

Martin

Barely distinguishable at all. You could mix prints together from both
and not tell the difference. Innova holds a sharper dot, has the same
dmax or so close as to be irrelevant. Also can take more ink, so if
you have more to put down you may get even more dmax.
Mainly- price.

Don't know about inks other than Piezotones on it yet though.

Tyler


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "mxgo95747"
<mxgo95747@y...> wrote:
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Tyler Boley"
<tyler@t...> wrote:
> > 
> > I I intend to get into the entire Innova line enthusiastically,
but both
> > German Etching and William Turner are very unique and I can't imagine
> > letting them go for now. PhotRpag on the other hand, may go by the
> > wayside. More use and testing will tell.
> 
> 
> Tyler, with the Innova paper, what are the differences between it
and HRag?  Better blacks, 
> midtones, or is it better for cerain tones (selenium, carbon, warm,
or..)?

> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Martin

Accoding to Jim at Shades of Paper, the Innova Soft Texture is similar to German 
Etching.  I do currently use Innova Soft Texture (as well as Innova Smooth Cotton), 
but I say the German Etching comparison is "according to Jim" because I've never 
used German Etching myself.  I also recently got some samples of the new Innova 
Cold Press Art (nice, heavy texture) and ordered a couple of packs of that too.

Also, I do find the Innova Smooth Cotton to be a bit less delicate than PhotoRag.  I 
mean, it's not like you can abuse the Innova -- you still have to treat it carefully.  But 
it doesn't, in my experience, flake or scuff as easily as PhotoRag

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Tyler Boley" <tyler@t...> 
wrote:

> 
> I love German Etching, been using it for all kinds of things, color
> and quads, for years since it first was avalable as Lyson Fine Art. I
> don't find it any less delicate then the other H papers. Actually I
> don't find the Innova papers that much less delicate.
> There's just no getting around treating these prints well.
> I intend to get into the entire Innova line enthusiastically, but both
> German Etching and William Turner are very unique and I can't imagine
> letting them go for now. PhotRpag on the other hand, may go by the
> wayside. More use and testing will tell.
> Tyler

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "chipcarterdc"
<chipcarterdc@h...> wrote:
> 
> Accoding to Jim at Shades of Paper, the Innova Soft Texture is
similar to German 
> Etching.
...

I would put it in the same catogory, very similar. But some subtle
differences. After I save up more pennies, I'll buy and use a lot more
of the Innova Soft Texture than German Etching. But still keep some GE
around.

> Also, I do find the Innova Smooth Cotton to be a bit less delicate
than PhotoRag...
...

That's good to know. It's hard to quanifiy these things until I've
used a lot of it and had many prints and tests around in the studio
for a while.
Actually, I use very little PR, have never been drawn to it. It's here
as an option for clients.
But I am anxious to move a little farther from the flaking, PR is my
biggest flaker.

Tyler

The ink carts on this printer are the same as the 9500 (and or bigger 
500ml) right? If so that means no ink chips, and attaching bottles to 
the internal ink lines should be a snap.

Those G-Chrome inks may seem very tempting, but I would hesitate to 
suggest them. I ran those for a while too. The G4 worked better and 
gave less banding in the blacks and full cyan, and full magenta. 
Switching over the the Image Specialists inks was even better after 
the G4 inks completely clogged one of my dampers, partial on a couple 
others. It was the strangest thing, I was running low, so ordered 
some more ink, and the yellow got low enough to add, same with black. 
I made a couple of prints, and started a larger print... about 
halfway through the yellow completely stopped! One pass it worked, 
the next pass it didn't, looked like a switch had been changed to 
turn off the yellow ink. Happened about when the new batch of ink had 
finaly reached the heads. After I got the run around from support, 
including sending the "defective" ink back to them, they said it was 
fine and they were testing it in their 3000 that prints the packing 
lists in shipping. Now here is the best part, I have several of those 
packing slips that obviously have a serious headclog! In short I just 
do not trust them to do the right thing, cost me alot for repair and 
wasted media. Also as far as I know, the G-Chrome matte black is the 
same dye/pigment as their other matte black inks, that means you will 
still have water issues, and may have the same scuffing that you have 
now.

This new ink should have a much larger gamut, but it is designed for 
the Ultrachrome printers, and I'm having a hard time getting the ink 
limits low enough to give me that gamut. Since your 10K used the same 
Archival inks as my 9500, I don't know if this would be a good 
suggestion. They flow through my CIS and the printer great, but too 
much is still getting onto the paper, might be time to try some of 
those demos for a new RIP to see if I can find something that will 
work. Or I just go back to the other inks with a lower pigment load, 
they give me about equal to UC inks on most papers (comparing 
profiles).

Those see through carts for the big printers seem like a bad idea to 
me. It seems that it would have all the disadvantages of a bottle 
system, and you still need to remove them from the printer to fill 
them. I think the foil bag was there to keep the pressure at a 
constant amount from beginning to end, the clear carts will vary from 
full to empty and may effect your output. I'm just guessing about 
that, but might be something to think about.

If you are using the UT inks with Eboni black, you might notice a 
difference in the black density. If you don't measure it, you may not 
see it. Again, these are very nice papers produced by some of the 
same people that designed the coating for most of the Hahnemuhle 
papers. If you haven't tried them, order the sample pack and give it 
a go. If you are using an Ultracrome printer, these should surpass 
the Dmax of Hahnemuhle papers, or at least that's what they say.

I did a couple of fairly subtle things using the Innova Smooth Cotton with 
Ultrachrome from files that had color as well as monochrome content that were 
initially printed on H Photo Rag. Like he said with piezzo, I couldn't tell them apart. 


John

> Don't know about inks other than Piezotones on it yet though.
> 
> Tyler
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "mxgo95747"
> <mxgo95747@y...> wrote:
> > 
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Tyler Boley"
> <tyler@t...> wrote:
> > > 
> > > I I intend to get into the entire Innova line enthusiastically,
> but both
> > > German Etching and William Turner are very unique and I can't imagine
> > > letting them go for now. PhotRpag on the other hand, may go by the
> > > wayside. More use and testing will tell.
> > 
> > 
> > Tyler, with the Innova paper, what are the differences between it
> and HRag?  Better blacks, 
> > midtones, or is it better for cerain tones (selenium, carbon, warm,
> or..)?
> > 
> > Thanks,
> > 
> > Martin

Now you've gotten me really depressed.

But I have talked with two guys who use the Lyson Cave Paints in the chipped carts 
for the 10K and think it was the greatest thing they ever did. Their gamut and 
workflow improved dramaticly. I'm so confused I don't know what to do, so I'll stay 
put until this summer until I can do more research I guess. There was something 
that Epson did when they were retrofitting these machines to UC for a short period 
and it had to do with ink load firm ware changes. It could very well be that Studio 
Print would be the ultimate solution. That is what I suspect. This is such a great 
machine. Then I have to spend more money on the rip and a pc. When will it ever 
end? 

Thanks for your experience,

John 



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "dfaprinting" <
dfaprinting@y...> wrote:

> 
> The ink carts on this printer are the same as the 9500 (and or bigger 
> 500ml) right? If so that means no ink chips, and attaching bottles to 
> the internal ink lines should be a snap.
> 
> Those G-Chrome inks may seem very tempting, but I would hesitate to 
> suggest them. I ran those for a while too. The G4 worked better and 
> gave less banding in the blacks and full cyan, and full magenta. 
> Switching over the the Image Specialists inks was even better after 
> the G4 inks completely clogged one of my dampers, partial on a couple 
> others. It was the strangest thing, I was running low, so ordered 
> some more ink, and the yellow got low enough to add, same with black. 
> I made a couple of prints, and started a larger print... about 
> halfway through the yellow completely stopped! One pass it worked, 
> the next pass it didn't, looked like a switch had been changed to 
> turn off the yellow ink. Happened about when the new batch of ink had 
> finaly reached the heads. After I got the run around from support, 
> including sending the "defective" ink back to them, they said it was 
> fine and they were testing it in their 3000 that prints the packing 
> lists in shipping. Now here is the best part, I have several of those 
> packing slips that obviously have a serious headclog! In short I just 
> do not trust them to do the right thing, cost me alot for repair and 
> wasted media. Also as far as I know, the G-Chrome matte black is the 
> same dye/pigment as their other matte black inks, that means you will 
> still have water issues, and may have the same scuffing that you have 
> now.
> 
> This new ink should have a much larger gamut, but it is designed for 
> the Ultrachrome printers, and I'm having a hard time getting the ink 
> limits low enough to give me that gamut. Since your 10K used the same 
> Archival inks as my 9500, I don't know if this would be a good 
> suggestion. They flow through my CIS and the printer great, but too 
> much is still getting onto the paper, might be time to try some of 
> those demos for a new RIP to see if I can find something that will 
> work. Or I just go back to the other inks with a lower pigment load, 
> they give me about equal to UC inks on most papers (comparing 
> profiles).
> 
> Those see through carts for the big printers seem like a bad idea to 
> me. It seems that it would have all the disadvantages of a bottle 
> system, and you still need to remove them from the printer to fill 
> them. I think the foil bag was there to keep the pressure at a 
> constant amount from beginning to end, the clear carts will vary from 
> full to empty and may effect your output. I'm just guessing about 
> that, but might be something to think about.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "dfaprinting"
<dfaprinting@y...> wrote:
> 
> If you are using the UT inks with Eboni black, you might notice a 
> difference in the black density.

If I can just get through the busy work and get to some testing, I'll
be able to say for sure for UCs as well as Cones.

>...If you are using an Ultracrome printer, these should surpass 
> the Dmax of Hahnemuhle papers, or at least that's what they say.

THat's what Breathing Color said when they came out too, we'll see.
Looks to me like it can take more ink, so I assume total limiting can
be opened up for more deep color gamut, whether or not more individual
inks can be put down for more dmax and outer gamut might largely
depend on the particular printer and RIP.

Tyler

dfaprinting wrote:

>The ink carts on this printer are the same as the 9500 (and or bigger 
>500ml) right? If so that means no ink chips, and attaching bottles to 
>the internal ink lines should be a snap.
>  
>

No, they are chipped. Look much more like the 9600 carts but more 
complicated, and they are 500 ml. MIS chip resetter works on the carts.

No, the carts are at a much lower level than the heads so there's an 
extra air pump in the printer to pressurize an extra chamber around the 
ink bag in the cart to get the ink to the heads. There are also extra 
electrical valves on the cart slots to prevent flow back. The carts have 
also more complicated valves for that purpose. They can't be refilled 
without a kind of cataract operation on the valve system but when that's 
done they are fine for refilling. With 500 ml per cart and easy 
refilling plus the complicated inkline construction I do not see any 
reason to go for a CIS.


Ernst

In my opinion, a RIP with really good ink control is the only way to 
print, at least until Epson allows us to adjust the limits and 
linearization through the firmware. The cave paints may work fairly 
well, people seem to be happy with them in 1280 up to 7600 printers. I 
can't say as I've heard from too many people using them in the larger 
printers though. If your machine has upgraded firmware to use the UC 
inks, then I would say that several of them UC replacements would work. 
It's also possible that the heads in the 10K are designed very much 
like the UC heads, and it might work well for you. If you have firmware 
for the Archival pigment inks, then I would suggest the GP Archival 
type inks. This is all based on my printer, which I'm beginning to 
think has an abnormally high ink output. These new inks have a huge 
pigment load for my printer, one of the colors cuts out at 37% for 
correct limiting. Going to send an email off to the manufacturer today 
and see what they think.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Tyler Boley" 
<tyler@t...> wrote:

> THat's what Breathing Color said when they came out too, we'll see.
> Looks to me like it can take more ink, so I assume total limiting can
> be opened up for more deep color gamut, whether or not more individual
> inks can be put down for more dmax and outer gamut might largely
> depend on the particular printer and RIP.
> 
> Tyler

I agree about the individual printer thing, I'm beginning to think that 
mine may have an abnormally high ink output. The deeper blacks than 
Eboni come from the dye component, and I think that these papers were 
designed to be used with the UC inks. That said I end up with blacks 
only a couple L* up from the Hahnemuhle papers. And I never did get 
great blacks from the BC papers, so who knows what is really going on 
with them.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Ernst Dinkla 
<E.Dinkla@c...> wrote:
> dfaprinting wrote:
> 
> >The ink carts on this printer are the same as the 9500 (and or 
bigger 
> >500ml) right? If so that means no ink chips, and attaching bottles 
to 
> >the internal ink lines should be a snap.
> >  
> >
> 
> No, they are chipped. Look much more like the 9600 carts but more 
> complicated, and they are 500 ml. MIS chip resetter works on the 
carts.
> 
> No, the carts are at a much lower level than the heads so there's 
an 
> extra air pump in the printer to pressurize an extra chamber around 
the 
> ink bag in the cart to get the ink to the heads. There are also 
extra 
> electrical valves on the cart slots to prevent flow back. The carts 
have 
> also more complicated valves for that purpose. They can't be 
refilled 
> without a kind of cataract operation on the valve system but when 
that's 
> done they are fine for refilling. With 500 ml per cart and easy 
> refilling plus the complicated inkline construction I do not see 
any 
> reason to go for a CIS.
> 
> 
> Ernst

I may have to read through the service manual, that system must be a 
nightmare when it fails. You could still put a CIS on it, and just 
raise the bottles up to a level near that of the heads, gravity would 
take the place of the airbags.

dfa

>I may have to read through the service manual, that system must be a 
>nightmare when it fails. You could still put a CIS on it, and just 
>raise the bottles up to a level near that of the heads, gravity would 
>take the place of the airbags.
>  
>
Gallon bottles to make it a sensible modification ?  Bottle height 
compensation for ink use like I have on my 9000 CIS systems ? It will be 
quite a contraption, the printer is ugly already.

Complicated yes but it is one of the most reliable Epsons that I have 
used, many praise its speed, print quality and reliability.
And even that machine can be modified to change matte and gloss black 
fast and with less waste. Which was a sensible modification. A service 
manual is a must though.

Ernst

Ernst, what inkset are you using in your 10K and have you had problems with 
leaking carts, etc? Is a firm ware up grade essential with or without a rip? AND 
finally  have you experienced cloggs or poor inkloads that would contribute to poor 
output? In otherwords to you have to fight to keep this machine going? I need real 
world experience. I wish they had never put those chips in there.
--------
> Complicated yes but it is one of the most reliable Epsons that I have 
> used, many praise its speed, print quality and reliability.
> And even that machine can be modified to change matte and gloss black 
> fast and with less waste. Which was a sensible modification. A service 
> manual is a must though.
> 
> Ernst


You know I agree. The 10K makes my 9600 seem like a toy ( in everything but the 
actual output) in the way it operates. I have never had such a flawless piece of 
equipment in my life and it has spoiled me. Compared to what people go through 
with Iris printers it is nothing short of amazing in its reliability.

That is why I am so concerned about screwing it up with UC equiv inks, but I want 
to do it. I have a service manual but I'm not a mechanic.

John

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Ernst Dinkla 
<E.Dinkla@c...> wrote:
> Gallon bottles to make it a sensible modification ? 
> Ernst

I could build a gallon sized system that would give nearly a constant 
pressure. Atmospheric changes are bothering my smaller system at the 
moment. If you take a few moments to equalize the air pressure to the 
outside (the bottle) pressure, and the temperature in the room doesn't 
change too much, it works very well. It might even be easier to bulid 
in gallon plus sizes.

A micro pressure sensor and small liquid pump might be a better idea, 
also might be easier to make.

john dean wrote:

>Ernst, what inkset are you using in your 10K and have you had problems with 
>leaking carts, etc? Is a firm ware up grade essential with or without a rip? AND 
>finally  have you experienced cloggs or poor inkloads that would contribute to poor 
>output? In otherwords to you have to fight to keep this machine going? I need real 
>world experience. I wish they had never put those chips in there.
>  
>
John,

One day you have to bite the bullet...........

As troublefree as your Epson Archival inks are in the 10000 isn't what 
you will get. But that set is under pigmented so lacks gamut and density 
compared to UC and the MIS 7600 inks that I use. There's also less 
metamerism with the MIS 7600 inks that I use when compared to the 
Archival set that was in this printer.

No firmware upgrade, the same Epson carts that had the Archival ink in 
them. You must have plenty of them and I could use another set or two ?? 
There's a RIP here but it is hardly used, good density and much gamut 
with the Epson driver and a custom profile. I actually have to throttle 
down the saturation in the profile to match some 2200 output I get as 
proofs.

In 9600's the MIS 7600 shows the same problems that the UC shows when 
the printer is used regularly. Heads have to be cleaned and dampers must 
be cleaned. It is the price of higher pigmented inksets and fiber 
loosing papers. This is based on the experience of a friend's two 9600 
with MIS 7600 compared to one 9600 UC of his next door neighbour and 
another one a city further away. They all have problems from time to 
time and they get worse without regular maintenance.

Next time I skip your messages on the subject again :-)

Ernst

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Ernst Dinkla 
<E.Dinkla@c...> wrote:
> 
> As troublefree as your Epson Archival inks are in the 10000 isn't 
what 
> you will get. But that set is under pigmented so lacks gamut and 
density 
> compared to UC and the MIS 7600 inks that I use. There's also less 
> metamerism with the MIS 7600 inks that I use when compared to the 
> Archival set that was in this printer.
> 
> No firmware upgrade, the same Epson carts that had the Archival ink 
in 
> them. You must have plenty of them and I could use another set or 
two ?? 


OK, with that info, I would definately suggest the GP Archival inks 
as being a good match to the Epson inks at a cheaper price (and 
better gamut). I'm actually looking into doing a group buy on some 
inks, and it looks like these may be it. I may try the UC replacement 
inks at some time in the future to see how well they work. Those GP 
inks have been pretty much trouble free, and show good linearity 
comparable to the Epson programming and stock profiles, so they are 
easier to make work. The Eboni black may or may not live up to your 
expectations (but we've discussed that already). I think they also 
have a traditional dye/pigment matte black.

A good flushing and cleaning every six months doesn't hurt either. 
I'm looking into which of two cleaning fluids would be best (along 
with pricing on the inks).

No firmware upgrade, the same Epson carts that had the Archival ink in
them. You must have plenty of them and I could use another set or two ??

Ernst
--------------------
I WISH I had saved them. I had no idea anyone would need them in the future. Had 
no idea you could refill them or reuse the chips. 

John

You do it and I'll buy it from ya, provided you give me a one year warranty 
against all cloggs! Kidding of course, but that would be a dream, a giant 
feeding tank with gallons of Generations pigments at the ready  - a miracle 
come true, but very risky...?

This is a black and white site. I didn't mean to start all this. This kind of 
discussion should be on the wide format list from now on. It was my fault.

John

> I could build a gallon sized system that would give nearly a constant 
> pressure. Atmospheric changes are bothering my smaller system at the 
> moment. If you take a few moments to equalize the air pressure to the 
> outside (the bottle) pressure, and the temperature in the room doesn't 
> change too much, it works very well. It might even be easier to bulid 
> in gallon plus sizes.
> 
> A micro pressure sensor and small liquid pump might be a better idea, 
> also might be easier to make.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "john dean" 
<deanwork2003@y...> wrote:
> 
> This is a black and white site. I didn't mean to start all this. 
This kind of 
> discussion should be on the wide format list from now on. It was my 
fault.
> 
> John
> 
>  

Except if we did we would be called silly for even talking of such 
things. I don't think the wide format group has much valuable 
information on it, unless your machine is broken, then someone might 
help you. If you talk about testing papers for water resistance, and 
new ink formulations you get a bunch grief. Seems any kind of talk of 
new techniques, or other ground breaking findings went away a long 
time ago. I won't be posting much in the way of useful info in there 
anymore.

That's why we hang out around here. Otherwise we'd be discussing canvas.

John

> Except if we did we would be called silly for even talking of such 
> things. I don't think the wide format group has much valuable 
> information on it, unless your machine is broken, then someone might 
> help you. If you talk about testing papers for water resistance, and 
> new ink formulations you get a bunch grief. Seems any kind of talk of 
> new techniques, or other ground breaking findings went away a long 
> time ago. I won't be posting much in the way of useful info in there 
> anymore.

john dean wrote:

>That's why we hang out around here. Otherwise we'd be discussing canvas.
>
>John
>
> 
>  
>
>>Except if we did we would be called silly for even talking of such 
>>things. I don't think the wide format group has much valuable 
>>information on it, unless your machine is broken, then someone might 
>>help you. If you talk about testing papers for water resistance, and 
>>new ink formulations you get a bunch grief. Seems any kind of talk of 
>>new techniques, or other ground breaking findings went away a long 
>>time ago. I won't be posting much in the way of useful info in there 
>>anymore.
>>    
>>
You got a bit late to the party, CIS systems where often discussed on 
the Wide Format list when the 9000's etc where new. Those models had 
lousy cart systems that were prone to fail, refilled or new.  Leaking 
carts would spill ink on the electronics.  Cart slot needles could 
clogg. So I estimate the number of DIY and commercial CIS models 
available the world around was more than 20. Few as nice as my design. 
Most obsolete now.

The UC wide formats have nice, easy refillable carts with good valves 
that will not wear out. 220 ml carts can be used on all UC wide formats. 
The 10000 has similar carts but 500 ml that need some surgery to make 
them refillable. The 3 liter ink in total in the 10000 carts will 
produce 200 square meters if they were used equally fast. Refilling the 
LM carts is the most common task and isn't taking much more time than 
filling CIS bottles. Get extra sets if the consumption is high. A 6 or 7 
gallon size CIS will have 6 or 7 quarts of pigment settling at the 
bottom in 6 months, not easy to shake the bottles so you need pumps. All 
available in the big sign industry where 30 picoliter droplets are 
considered to be fine. I rather shake my 500 ml carts.

Ground breaking findings were already discussed on the Leben list before 
the Wide Format list was created. The industry still has to catch up. 
Red and blue hues added to the printer were favorites five years ago 
(C.D. Tobie), so was 3 grey inks added  to a CMYK printer (Culbertson), 
glop discussed, coatings that sealed themselves when heated. Wild ideas 
that I had. This B&W list is so lively because the industry still hasn't 
paid attention enough to B&W printing. As soon as reliable solutions 
with nice results appear we will discuss the merits of different 
canvasses here.  We are not that far from it. The real ground breaking 
news has then to come from digital camera forums. Back to fine printing now.

Ernst

Thanks Ernst for the history lesson.

Where exactly do I find detailed information about altering and adapting these 
Epson 10K carts for use with G Chrome Pigments? So, you agree that there 
are not any other empty reliable carts available that these companies can use 
for the 500ml size printers?

Thanks for the detailed commentary,

John

john dean wrote:

>Thanks Ernst for the history lesson.
>
>Where exactly do I find detailed information about altering and adapting these 
>Epson 10K carts for use with G Chrome Pigments? So, you agree that there 
>are not any other empty reliable carts available that these companies can use 
>for the 500ml size printers?
>
>Thanks for the detailed commentary,
>
>John
>
>  
>
I can't agree on the quality of the empty third party carts as I have 
never used them and never heard good or bad about them until you 
informed me here.

The information for modifying the Epson 10000 carts will cost you a set 
of used 10000 carts :-)   The ones that experiment and gather knowledge 
must get some compensation.

Ernst

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Ernst Dinkla <
E.Dinkla@c...> wrote:
> john dean wrote:
> 
> >Thanks Ernst for the history lesson.
> >
> >Where exactly do I find detailed information about altering and adapting 
these 
> The information for modifying the Epson 10000 carts will cost you a set 
> of used 10000 carts :-)   The ones that experiment and gather knowledge 
> must get some compensation.
> 
> Ernst


If I had any I'd send them to you now.  If I find a source I'll let you know. 
Actually there is a big service bureau here that uses a lot of them, but I 
imagine they throw them away, but I'll call and see if they can save them for 
us. I'm still collecting varying opinions, and belive me they vary. I'm not sure 
what I will end up doing. But, your offer is very reasonable and I will look into 
it.

John