Digital BW, The Print

Steve,

Have you tried the PK curves on Carl's site?

Guy
--- SteveZ <blizzie12@...> wrote:
> 
> Johnny, are your prints coming out brown? I tried
> Ilford Smooth 
> Pearl with the QTR and they had a strong sepia tone,
> not what I 
> wanted at all. Then again, there is no specific
> profile for luster 
> papers in the QTRgui. I tried printing with NoK and
> print came out 
> completely washed out. I wish I had some answers.


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Let me tell you....some of my friend's glossy, fine-art, silver 
gelatin prints are absolutely stunning. I only wish the effect could 
be a acheived in the digital printing process.


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Seth" 
<seth@m...> wrote:
> That makes sense to me.  I love the paper but when I do color on 
it I ALWAYS
> get a magenta cast and have to work hard to eliminate it.  I think 
it is

> just how it reacts with the inks.
> 
> Seth 
> 
> ==-----Original Message-----
> ==From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
> ==
> ==Johnny, are your prints coming out brown? I tried Ilford 
> ==Smooth Pearl with the QTR and they had a strong sepia tone, 
> ==not what I wanted at all. Then again, there is no specific 
> ==profile for luster papers in the QTRgui. I tried printing 
> ==

Well put, Scott!! 

I'd just like to add photographers use it for reproduction purposes.

ALSO, Walmart/CVS/Costco, etc. use it for amateur stuff for a reason. It's
usually high contrast in addition to gloss.  Both tend to make up for the
failings of amateur cameras, plastic lenses, etc.  They enhance otherwise
softer images. That, and the ability to treach a chimpanzee to run the
machine, make for cheap sales. <GGG?

Since we control that with workflow, we don't need the boost.

I had a woman come through the booth once, take a long hard look at a matte
print of a lily, framed behind glass, then turn to me and say, "I am a
watercolor artist too. What type of paints do YOU use?"

I just told her I really didn't want to release my technique.

Seth



==-----Original Message-----
==Behalf Of Scott Graham
==
==I admit that when I switched to digital printing that I 
==hesitated on matte paper,
==
==but the prints AND BLACKS are superior to Illford silver 
==fiber based paper and they look great.  Better than FINE 
==darkroom prints.
==
==The last techno oriented comment I had is that "They CAN"T be inkjet".
==
==HA!
==
==bronzing?  don't use glossy paper---it never looked very good 
==anyway, though air dried was fine.  
==
==bronzing?  frame them behind glass.  It is a total non issue 
==except to people hoping to find fault.  Yes, I've done it 
==too---peered very closely to see if there were dots, or this or that.
==
==Framing behind glass also makes them "look glossy"; well sort 
==of.  You can't tell the difference I think except that there 
==are no annoying reflections.  (same for semigloss, reflections I mean)
==
==Incidentally, only photographers use glossy paper, not fine 
==artist's from other mediums (oil, watercolor, ink, charcoal, 
==pastel, etc).
==

wow.....isn't this just a bit snooty?
On Apr 21, 2005, at 6:03 AM, Seth wrote:
>
>  ALSO, Walmart/CVS/Costco, etc. use it for amateur stuff for a reason. 
> It's
>  usually high contrast in addition to gloss.  Both tend to make up for 
> the
>  failings of amateur cameras, plastic lenses, etc.  They enhance 
> otherwise
>  softer images. That, and the ability to treach a chimpanzee to run the
>  machine, make for cheap sales. <GGG?
> C'mon, I know lots of people that are smart, and have taste, and have 
> seen photographs in galleries, and read lenswork magaizine, and also 
> like a nice glossy print. I also think that glossy prints many times 
> look just better, and more effective. The main problem is that usually 
> an inkjet glossy print is some combination of the following problems: 
> 1) way too glossy, 2) bronzing like crazy like it was sprinkled with 
> glitter,  3) suffering from gloss diferential, where some parts are 
> glossy and others are dull. All of these are fixable. using Glop, and 
> pauls workflow, on costco paper you get a real nice slightly glossy 
> print that looks a lot like a air dried print, and nothing like a 
> peice of cheap plastic. Using Premium semi-matte, it is even more like 
> an air dried print. Not to mention that the image quality and dynamics 
> are superb. Way better than photo rag lets say (technically speaking). 
> Most people like the look of an air-dried glossy print. Not too 
> glossy. I have a bunch of them that my dad did when we had the 
> darkroom setup when I was in junior high. With glop you have a print 
> with very much the same vibe. The people I show prints to, normal, 
> intelligent, tasteful people, like them, and when they see the print 
> they look at the image first. With rag prints, they look at the 
> surface, then the image. Simply writing off the gloss print as bush 
> league is writing off a lot of the history of photographic 
> printmaking. A good matte print is not inherently better than a good 
> gloss print. Both are good, and they always have been.

>  Since we control that with workflow, we don't need the boost.
>
>  I had a woman come through the booth once, take a long hard look at a 
> matte
>  print of a lily, framed behind glass, then turn to me and say, "I am a
>  watercolor artist too. What type of paints do YOU use?"
> I have had that happen too with a rag print. Someone did not even 
> think it was a photograph. I want people to recognize the print as a 
> photgraphic print. Some images may need a more painterly vibe, and a 
> fuzzy toothy rag surface might be great. There is room for everything 
> under the big umbrella of "good taste"

just my two cents worth, Doug M


>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

WHAT??  You misquoted.  I didn't write all of that; just up to the "GGG"

Seth 

==-----Original Message-----
==From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
==[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On 
==Behalf Of Douglas Meeuwsen
==Sent: Thursday, April 21, 2005 12:07 PM
==To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
==Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: If you print and sell black and 
==white prints, please read this thread
==
==
==wow.....isn't this just a bit snooty?
==On Apr 21, 2005, at 6:03 AM, Seth wrote:
==>
==>  ALSO, Walmart/CVS/Costco, etc. use it for amateur stuff 
==for a reason. 
==> It's
==>  usually high contrast in addition to gloss.  Both tend to 
==make up for 
==> the  failings of amateur cameras, plastic lenses, etc.  
==They enhance 
==> otherwise  softer images. That, and the ability to treach a 
==chimpanzee 
==> to run the  machine, make for cheap sales. <GGG?
==> C'mon, I know lots of people that are smart, and have 
==taste, and have 
==> seen photographs in galleries, and read lenswork magaizine, 
==and also 
==> like a nice glossy print. I also think that glossy prints 
==many times 
==> look just better, and more effective. The main problem is 
==that usually 
==> an inkjet glossy print is some combination of the following 
==problems:
==> 1) way too glossy, 2) bronzing like crazy like it was 
==sprinkled with 
==> glitter,  3) suffering from gloss diferential, where some parts are 
==> glossy and others are dull. All of these are fixable. using 
==Glop, and 
==> pauls workflow, on costco paper you get a real nice slightly glossy 
==> print that looks a lot like a air dried print, and nothing like a 
==> peice of cheap plastic. Using Premium semi-matte, it is 
==even more like 
==> an air dried print. Not to mention that the image quality 
==and dynamics 
==> are superb. Way better than photo rag lets say (technically 
==speaking).
==> Most people like the look of an air-dried glossy print. Not too 
==> glossy. I have a bunch of them that my dad did when we had the 
==> darkroom setup when I was in junior high. With glop you 
==have a print 
==> with very much the same vibe. The people I show prints to, normal, 
==> intelligent, tasteful people, like them, and when they see 
==the print 
==> they look at the image first. With rag prints, they look at the 
==> surface, then the image. Simply writing off the gloss print as bush 
==> league is writing off a lot of the history of photographic 
==> printmaking. A good matte print is not inherently better 
==than a good 
==> gloss print. Both are good, and they always have been.
==
==>  Since we control that with workflow, we don't need the boost.
==>
==>  I had a woman come through the booth once, take a long 
==hard look at a 
==> matte  print of a lily, framed behind glass, then turn to 
==me and say, 
==> "I am a  watercolor artist too. What type of paints do YOU use?"
==> I have had that happen too with a rag print. Someone did not even 
==> think it was a photograph. I want people to recognize the 
==print as a 
==> photgraphic print. Some images may need a more painterly 
==vibe, and a 
==> fuzzy toothy rag surface might be great. There is room for 
==everything 
==> under the big umbrella of "good taste"
==
==just my two cents worth, Doug M
==
==
==>
==>
==>
==
==
==[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
==
==
==
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yeah...sorry about all those arrows....the "snooty" part was just bit 
about the gloss being for images taken with plastic lenses etc......the 
rest was my little bit in resonse......I thought that my words would be 
be in black.....I suck.


On Apr 21, 2005, at 10:21 AM, Seth wrote:

> WHAT??� You misquoted.� I didn't write all of that; just up to the 
> "GGG"
>
>  Seth
>
>  ==-----Original Message-----
>  ==From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
>  ==[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On
>  ==Behalf Of Douglas Meeuwsen
>  ==Sent: Thursday, April 21, 2005 12:07 PM
>  ==To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
>  ==Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: If you print and sell black and
>  ==white prints, please read this thread
>  ==
>  ==
>  ==wow.....isn't this just a bit snooty?
>  ==On Apr 21, 2005, at 6:03 AM, Seth wrote:
>  ==>
>  ==>� ALSO, Walmart/CVS/Costco, etc. use it for amateur stuff
>  ==for a reason.
>  ==> It's
>  ==>� usually high contrast in addition to gloss.� Both tend to
>  ==make up for
>  ==> the� failings of amateur cameras, plastic lenses, etc.�
>  ==They enhance
>  ==> otherwise� softer images. That, and the ability to treach a
>  ==chimpanzee
>  ==> to run the� machine, make for cheap sales. <GGG?
>  ==> C'mon, I know lots of people that are smart, and have
>  ==taste, and have
>  ==> seen photographs in galleries, and read lenswork magaizine,
>  ==and also
>  ==> like a nice glossy print. I also think that glossy prints
>  ==many times
>  ==> look just better, and more effective. The main problem is
>  ==that usually
>  ==> an inkjet glossy print is some combination of the following
>  ==problems:
>  ==> 1) way too glossy, 2) bronzing like crazy like it was
>  ==sprinkled with
>  ==> glitter,� 3) suffering from gloss diferential, where some parts 
> are
>  ==> glossy and others are dull. All of these are fixable. using
>  ==Glop, and
>  ==> pauls workflow, on costco paper you get a real nice slightly 
> glossy
>  ==> print that looks a lot like a air dried print, and nothing like a
>  ==> peice of cheap plastic. Using Premium semi-matte, it is
>  ==even more like
>  ==> an air dried print. Not to mention that the image quality
>  ==and dynamics
>  ==> are superb. Way better than photo rag lets say (technically
>  ==speaking).
>  ==> Most people like the look of an air-dried glossy print. Not too
>  ==> glossy. I have a bunch of them that my dad did when we had the
>  ==> darkroom setup when I was in junior high. With glop you
>  ==have a print
>  ==> with very much the same vibe. The people I show prints to, normal,
>  ==> intelligent, tasteful people, like them, and when they see
>  ==the print
>  ==> they look at the image first. With rag prints, they look at the
>  ==> surface, then the image. Simply writing off the gloss print as 
> bush
>  ==> league is writing off a lot of the history of photographic
>  ==> printmaking. A good matte print is not inherently better
>  ==than a good
>  ==> gloss print. Both are good, and they always have been.
>  ==
>  ==>� Since we control that with workflow, we don't need the boost.
>  ==>
>  ==>� I had a woman come through the booth once, take a long
>  ==hard look at a
>  ==> matte� print of a lily, framed behind glass, then turn to
>  ==me and say,
>  ==> "I am a� watercolor artist too. What type of paints do YOU use?"
>  ==> I have had that happen too with a rag print. Someone did not even
>  ==> think it was a photograph. I want people to recognize the
>  ==print as a
>  ==> photgraphic print. Some images may need a more painterly
>  ==vibe, and a
>  ==> fuzzy toothy rag surface might be great. There is room for
>  ==everything
>  ==> under the big umbrella of "good taste"
>  ==
>  ==just my two cents worth, Doug M
>  ==
>  ==
>  ==>
>  ==>
>  ==>
>  ==
>  ==
>  ==[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>  ==
>  ==
>  ==
>  ==------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>  ==--------------------~--> What would our lives be like without
>  ==music, dance, and theater?
>  ==Donate or volunteer in the arts today at Network for Good!
>  ==http://us.click.yahoo.com/pkgkPB/SOnJAA/Zx0JAA/ucIolB/TM
>  ==--------------------------------------------------------------
>  ==------~->
>  ==
>  ==Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other
>  ==resources as they are often being updated.
>  ==
>  ==http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>  ==
>  ==If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or
>  ==you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership
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>  ==
>  ==Please follow these basic guidelines:
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>  ==messages to keep them short.
>  ==- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks
>  ==or flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be
>  ==removed from the membership without notice.
>  ==- Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of
>  ==digital B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic
>  ==posts may be removed from the membership.
>  ==- By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group
>  ==rules and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and
>  ==decisions of the group Owner and Moderators. See �Group
>  ==Topic, Rules and Guidelines� in the Files section:
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>  ==
>  ==BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL
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>  ==YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT,
>  ==INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY
>  ==DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF
>  ==PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN
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>  ==ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii)
>  ==STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW,
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>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other 
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>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
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>  - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or 
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