Digital BW, The Print

All I can say after reading that report, is wow when can I have one.

Gary

----- Original Message -----
From: "Andre" <am1000@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, May 16, 2005 4:34 PM
Subject: [Digital BW] Epson 2400 beta tester report


http://photoshopnews.com/2005/05/16/epson-r2400-and-ultrachrome-k3-ink-repor
t/





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I have a question about the review that hopefully someone understands better 
than me.  At the bottom, he says "One can not produce a split-tone result from 
the driver. All of the hue adjustments are linear-meaning you can't tone 
shadows separately from midtones and highlights. Those people wishing to 
do split-tone selenium/sepia for example, will be disappointed. "  However, 
about halfway thru the review, it shows sliders for "Shadow Tonality" and 
"Highlight Tonality" under the Color Management settings in the Advanced B&
W mode.  What would these sliders do, if not independently adjust the tone 
(that is, the color) of the shadows and highlights separately?  Or does 
"tonality", as used for those sliders, not mean what I think it means?  His 
review doesn't discuss these sliders.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Gary Brown" <
baffin@c...> wrote:
> All I can say after reading that report, is wow when can I have one.
> 
> Gary
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Andre" <am1000@v...>
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Monday, May 16, 2005 4:34 PM
> Subject: [Digital BW] Epson 2400 beta tester report
> 
> 
> http://photoshopnews.com/2005/05/16/epson-r2400-and-ultrachrome-k3-
ink-repor
> t/
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
> they are often being updated.
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
> page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
> Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
> membership without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
> printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from
> the membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner 
and
> Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> 
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL 
BW, THE PRINT
> YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT 
THE "OWNER" AND
> "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL 
NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU
> FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL 
OR EXEMPLARY
> DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF 
PROFITS,
> GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  
"OWNER" AND
> "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE 
BEEN ADVISED OF THE
> POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR 
THE INABILITY
> TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) 
UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR
> ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS 
OR CONDUCT OF ANY
> THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) 
ANY OTHER

> MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> 
> Yahoo! Groups Links

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Gary Brown"
<baffin@c...> wrote:
> All I can say after reading that report, is wow when can I have one.
> 

Well, hold onto your wallet for a bit. This happens every time Epson
comes out with a new line. There's lots of buzz created by insiders
who get to beta test, note that many of there are the same people out
doing Epson/Adobe/blabla sponsered seminars. So pre-orders go through
the roof. Then, after the user community finally gets their hands on
the severly backordered units, gets some experience and starts posting
results and questions, we finally get some idea of the product's real
capabilities...
...and guess what? It's never quite heaven.
It could be I suppose, but I'd prefer to hear from some really
demanding artists.
Tyler

FWIW, in looking at the large jpegs of the four differently-toned versions of the example 
print, the neutral print shows a lot of colored green and magenta jpeg artifacts in the sky.  
The cool, warm and sepia examples don't seem to have this problem.

Ed


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Tyler Boley" <tyler@t...> wrote:

> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Gary Brown"
> <baffin@c...> wrote:
> > All I can say after reading that report, is wow when can I have one.
> > 
> 
> Well, hold onto your wallet for a bit. This happens every time Epson
> comes out with a new line. There's lots of buzz created by insiders
> who get to beta test, note that many of there are the same people out
> doing Epson/Adobe/blabla sponsered seminars. So pre-orders go through
> the roof. Then, after the user community finally gets their hands on
> the severly backordered units, gets some experience and starts posting
> results and questions, we finally get some idea of the product's real
> capabilities...
> ...and guess what? It's never quite heaven.
> It could be I suppose, but I'd prefer to hear from some really
> demanding artists.
> Tyler

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Tyler Boley" 
<tyler@t...> wrote:
> Well, hold onto your wallet for a bit. This happens every time Epson
> comes out with a new line. There's lots of buzz created by insiders
> who get to beta test, note that many of there are the same people 
out
> doing Epson/Adobe/blabla sponsered seminars. So pre-orders go 
through


Must be a nice to get free printers. Wonder how many need to send 
them back at the end of the test? I bet they really are great 
machines if the money doesn't come out of your pocket.

>Must be a nice to get free printers. Wonder how many need to
send 
>them back at the end of the test? I bet they really are great 
>machines if the money doesn't come out of your pocket.

Beta testing isn't all it's cracked up to be and generally you
don't get equipment free. Most all of it is a pre release unit
that has to be returned. In the case of inks and software you
run the risk of really screwing up your equipment and there
often is no compensation. There is also no compensation for
your time or equipment downtime. Been there done that and I
don't think I want to do it anymore.

Regards, Walt

http://www.kauaiphotos.biz

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Walt Mucha
<wkm@k...> wrote:
...
> Beta testing isn't all it's cracked up to be...
> ...Been there done that and I
> don't think I want to do it anymore.

Agreed, entirely.
Tyler

An interesting report.  Well we already know how to do the soft-proofing for
any given setting - Carl, give Bruce Fraser a call...

The question I have is tone compression/management.  This is effectively now
a black box in the Epson driver and not open to profiling with conventional
software - not good.  There is no connection/colour management of tonal
compression from the workspace to the print space - change the workspace and
you'll get a different result.  Much like Black Only printing.  This is a
real shame.  It would have been nice if there was a baseline per paper/ink
that had been profiled. At least then the CMM could be used to get you to a
known baseline for tweaking in the driver.

Roy, perhaps it won't be long before we ask you to again brush off that
greyscale profile writer of yours!  By measuring the output of the Epson
driver in B&W mode for a particular setting at least then we could "profile"
the luminance/reflectance axis.  Then we can use the CMM with perceptual
intent to manage tonal compression at least.

Or is there a transform taking place as soon as we click on Advanced B&W
Mode (ie not really Same as Source) in which case things would be done
twice?

> From: Steve Kale <stevekale@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Tue, 17 May 2005 09:53:22 +0100
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Epson 2400 beta tester report
> 
> 
> An interesting report.  Well we already know how to do the soft-proofing for
> any given setting - Carl, give Bruce Fraser a call...
> 
> The question I have is tone compression/management.  This is effectively now
> a black box in the Epson driver and not open to profiling with conventional
> software - not good.  There is no connection/colour management of tonal
> compression from the workspace to the print space - change the workspace and
> you'll get a different result.  Much like Black Only printing.  This is a
> real shame.  It would have been nice if there was a baseline per paper/ink
> that had been profiled. At least then the CMM could be used to get you to a
> known baseline for tweaking in the driver.
> 
> Roy, perhaps it won't be long before we ask you to again brush off that
> greyscale profile writer of yours!  By measuring the output of the Epson
> driver in B&W mode for a particular setting at least then we could "profile"
> the luminance/reflectance axis.  Then we can use the CMM with perceptual
> intent to manage tonal compression at least.
>

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "chipcarterdc"  
sliders for "Shadow Tonality" and 
> "Highlight Tonality" under the Color Management settings in the
Advanced B&
> W mode.  What would these sliders do, if not independently adjust
the tone 
> (that is, the color) of the shadows and highlights separately?  Or does 
> "tonality", as used for those sliders, not mean what I think it
means?  His 
> review doesn't discuss these sliders. 
> > 
> > Gary 


Gary, I think "split tone" means application of two fully independent
tones.

The 2400 sliders may work (just guessing from the report) much like
the  sliders on QTRgui...which don't produce "split tone," but rather
mix a tone (warm-cool) blend and control ink limit (shadow depth) and
midtones. These controls can simulate "split tone" but I don't think
they fully deliver. 

If the 2400 does as well as QTRgui/2200 with its native software,
while delivering good glossy prints with a standard set of OEM
pigments, that will be a major *marketing* advance...it may not be
important to people who have grown to prefer matte papers and who have
gained reasonable control over 2200 etc using other drivers (QTRgui) 
and, perhaps, inks.

If there's not more to the 2400 (and presumably 4800) than indicated
by this report I may be content with a refurb 4000 after the 4800 is
introduced. 

Djon