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7600 dmax (UT7 & Rip)

7600 dmax (UT7 & Rip)

2005-05-27 by Paul Roark

Well, until we get black holes on the paper, the dual Eboni setup in the
7600 is producing the best dmax I've seen on matte paper with my 7600.
Needless to say, a rip is needed to control the LK and K independently.

 

What I am now calling the UT7-Rip inkset will probably have Eboni in both
the K and LK spots.  I think it'll be able to produce a better, smoother
black ramp in the 7600.

 

The inkset still prints on glossy paper without changing the inks.  In fact,
it does so with the Epson driver at 2880.  Kirkland paper just printed a
rather neutral 2.31 dmax.

 

The dual Eboni does exclude "easy" slider printing on matte paper the way
the UT7 inkset can do.

 

The yellow position will have the usual options.  I'll probably go with the
super-light UT-FS most of the time for the ultimate highlight smoothness.
As such, there will be curves for this, and just turning off the ink will
allow the same curves to work with the standard UT7 that has Sepia in that
spot. 

 

I'm using IJC for matte paper in the 7600 currently, but those with QTR will
be able to do whatever I can.  

 

Paul

www.PaulRoark.com <http://www.paulroark.com/>  

 

 

 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] 7600 dmax (UT7 & Rip)

2005-05-27 by Ernst Dinkla

Paul Roark wrote:

>Well, until we get black holes on the paper, the dual Eboni setup in the
>7600 is producing the best dmax I've seen on matte paper with my 7600.
>Needless to say, a rip is needed to control the LK and K independently.
>
> 
>
>What I am now calling the UT7-Rip inkset will probably have Eboni in both
>the K and LK spots.  I think it'll be able to produce a better, smoother
>black ramp in the 7600.
>
Paul,

Is there much gain in two Ebonies versus one Eboni + PK as the next grey 
+ some PK boost in black ? The last is what I use on the 9000 (last time 
I wrote it was the next grey but it is actually the PK).  I do 
understand that you can lay down as much Eboni as you need and the 
second Eboni fills up the pattern better but I wonder how much that adds 
compared to full Eboni + filling up the pattern with PK.

The PK seems to bleed more on matte than Eboni but isn't worse than the 
rest of the greys on that aspect.

Ernst

Re: 7600 dmax (UT7 & Rip)

2005-05-27 by David Wroblewski

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark"
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> Well, until we get black holes on the paper, the dual Eboni setup 
> in the 7600 is producing the best dmax I've seen on matte paper 
> with my 7600.
>
> Needless to say, a rip is needed to control the LK and K...
> 

Paul, is this setup at all relevant to the 2200? I've recently
switched from UT to UT7 (using IJC/OPM for both). I get about 
the same DMax with both sets, so I assume that this only matters
for the 7600. One difference I do notice between UT and UT-7
is that UT-7 produces a slightly coarser grayscale for me, for 
some reason, but perhaps that's subjective. 

Secondarily, do you use the sepia at all in producing a neutral 
profile? The UT-7 EEM profiles supplied by BowHaus run the sepia 
at a very low ink limit, which produces a split-tone effect with
warm highlights. I can't figure out why they did this.

-David

RE: [Digital BW] Re: 7600 dmax (UT7 & Rip)

2005-05-27 by Paul Roark

David,

> Paul Roark wrote:
> > ... the dual Eboni setup
> > in the 7600 is producing the best dmax I've seen on matte paper
> > with my 7600.
> >
> > Needless to say, a rip is needed to control the LK and K...
> >
> 
> Paul, is this setup at all relevant to the 2200?

The 2200 benefited a bit from the dual Eboni, but I felt is was not enough
to warrant making the inkset-2200 combination unable to use the sliders and
Epson driver to print matte paper.  The 2200 by itself gets a good dmax.
The 7600, 9600, and 4000 are the ones that are weak.

> I've recently
> switched from UT to UT7 (using IJC/OPM for both). I get about
> the same DMax with both sets,...

Yes, they have the same single Eboni.

> One difference I do notice between UT and UT-7
> is that UT-7 produces a slightly coarser grayscale for me, for
> some reason, but perhaps that's subjective.

The UT7 has one less gray.  That is why I'm adding the FS-Y to the set.

> Secondarily, do you use the sepia at all in producing a neutral
> profile? 

No, not only is it going the wrong direction tone-wise, but it's also the
weakest in terms of fading.

>The UT-7 EEM profiles supplied by BowHaus run the sepia
> at a very low ink limit, which produces a split-tone effect with
> warm highlights. I can't figure out why they did this.

An un-used jet can clog.  If you don't use sepia, I recommend using FS-Y, or
some other ink in that spot and using it.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

RE: [Digital BW] 7600 dmax (UT7 & Rip)

2005-05-27 by Paul Roark

Ernst, 

I did not test an Eboni + PK combination.  So, I'm not sure how that would
do.

I used the 2200 initially as the test bed for several combinations, and the
dual Eboni won.  Since the UT7 gets a very good dmax from the dual dark
grays (often better than a single MIS PK), I was not interested in having
the PK available.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ernst
> Dinkla
> Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2005 11:45 PM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] 7600 dmax (UT7 & Rip)
> 
> Paul Roark wrote:
> 
> >Well, until we get black holes on the paper, the dual Eboni setup in the
> >7600 is producing the best dmax I've seen on matte paper with my 7600.
> >Needless to say, a rip is needed to control the LK and K independently.
> >
> >
> >
> >What I am now calling the UT7-Rip inkset will probably have Eboni in both
> >the K and LK spots.  I think it'll be able to produce a better, smoother
> >black ramp in the 7600.
> >
> Paul,
> 
> Is there much gain in two Ebonies versus one Eboni + PK as the next grey
> + some PK boost in black ? The last is what I use on the 9000 (last time
> I wrote it was the next grey but it is actually the PK).  I do
> understand that you can lay down as much Eboni as you need and the
> second Eboni fills up the pattern better but I wonder how much that adds
> compared to full Eboni + filling up the pattern with PK.
> 
> The PK seems to bleed more on matte than Eboni but isn't worse than the
> rest of the greys on that aspect.
> 
> Ernst
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
> they are often being updated.
> 
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>

RE: [Digital BW] 7600 dmax (UT7 & Rip)

2005-05-27 by Paul Roark

>  ... the dual Eboni setup in the
> 7600 is producing the best dmax I've seen on matte paper with my 7600.
> Needless to say, a rip is needed to control the LK and K independently.
> ...

I should add that this is combination is not some major breakthrough in
matte dmax.  What it does is bring the 7600 up to what the 7500 and 3000 can
do with the Epson driver.  (I think the 7000 was not quite up to the 7500.)
So, what I'm doing is mostly offsetting the weakness Epson seems to have
ended up with in the 7600, probably because -- for Epson -- glossy paper,
speed, and small dot size are more important than matte paper dmax.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Re: 7600 dmax (UT7 & Rip)

2005-05-27 by Louis Dina

David,

> Secondarily, do you use the sepia at all in producing a neutral 
> profile? The UT-7 EEM profiles supplied by BowHaus run the sepia 
> at a very low ink limit, which produces a split-tone effect with
> warm highlights. I can't figure out why they did this.
> 
> -David

Bowhaus created profiles for the UT7 inkset that use all the inks, 
which allows the use of the toner sliders or simple changes to ink 
limits for tonal variations.  All the Bowhaus UT7 curves for the 2200 
use the exact same curve shapes.

I redid my profiles for the 2200 (Windows Platform) to eliminate the 
sepia toner for all but the sepia profiles.  Since the UT7 inkset has 
cool and warm gray inks, I found I needed a combination of the two to 
get a very neutral gray profile.

If you want copies, send me an email offline.

Lou

[Digital BW] Re: 7600 dmax (UT7 & Rip)

2005-05-27 by David Wroblewski

Paul, 

> 
> An un-used jet can clog.  If you don't use sepia, I recommend 
> using FS-Y, or some other ink in that spot and using it.

I may make this substitution if the coarseness continues to
be bother me. 

Is the Y position the same ink in Ultratone FS and FSN?

-david

Re: [Digital BW] 7600 dmax (UT7 & Rip)

2005-05-27 by Ernst Dinkla

Paul Roark wrote:


>Since the UT7 gets a very good dmax from the dual dark
>grays (often better than a single MIS PK), I was not interested in having
>the PK available.
>
>  
>
I missed that bit of the information. The use of twin heads is along the 
lines of what I thought would be good for Black Only printing, using 
more nozzles spread over more heads for the same inks. My thoughts then 
were about  the inconsistency of the nozzles and using more to get beter 
consistency, that it also will increase the density without adding much 
more ink is understandable now but escaped me then.

Wonder whether the Epson text about other weaving on the new models has 
anything to do with a similar better filling in of the area that has to 
be black. The only explanation I see right now for the effect you 
created is that filling in.

Ernst

RE: [Digital BW] Re: 7600 dmax (UT7 & Rip)

2005-05-27 by Paul Roark

David,

I'm probably going to use the UT-FS and not the N version.  The FS has half
the toner in it as the FS-N.  So it would be medium warm, but the paper
largely controls the highlight tone.  As such, I don't think the UT-FS-Y
will be too warm for the neutral prints.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of David
> Wroblewski
> Sent: Friday, May 27, 2005 10:15 AM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: 7600 dmax (UT7 & Rip)
> 
> Paul,
> 
> >
> > An un-used jet can clog.  If you don't use sepia, I recommend
> > using FS-Y, or some other ink in that spot and using it.
> 
> I may make this substitution if the coarseness continues to
> be bother me.
> 
> Is the Y position the same ink in Ultratone FS and FSN?
> 
> -david
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
> they are often being updated.
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
> page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
> Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
> membership without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
> printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from
> the membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner
> and Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files
> section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> 
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
> YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND
> "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO
> YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR
> EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF
> PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE
> "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN
> ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE
> OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii)
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> STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
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> 
> 
> 
>

[Digital BW] Re: 7600 dmax (UT7 & Rip)

2005-05-28 by David Wroblewski

Okay, thanks Paul. I'll keep watch for when you finish these
profiles. After getting used to the ultra-dotless grayscale
I got from the UT's, I think I'm going to have to make the 
same modification to the UT-7's to use 3 K inks. My eye just 
instantly picks up the coarseness in the 1/4 tones right now.

david

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark"
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> David,
> 
> I'm probably going to use the UT-FS and not the N version.  The FS
has half
> the toner in it as the FS-N.  So it would be medium warm, but the
paper
> largely controls the highlight tone.  As such, I don't think the
UT-FS-Y
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> will be too warm for the neutral prints.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com 
> 
>

RE: [Digital BW] 7600 dmax (UT7 & Rip)

2005-05-29 by Paul Roark

>  ... the dual Eboni setup in the
 > 7600 is producing the best dmax I've seen on matte paper with my 7600.
 > Needless to say, a rip is needed to control the LK and K independently.
 > ...

I now have the latest version of IJC, which increases the ink limit.  The
double Eboni jets now have an advantage of only about 0.01 density unit, at
best, which is not worth the extra effort it takes to optimize a dual black
system.  So, I'm abandoning the dual Eboni approach.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Re: [Digital BW] 7600 dmax (UT7 & Rip)

2005-05-29 by dfaprinting

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" 
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
>  >  ... the dual Eboni setup in the
>  > 7600 is producing the best dmax I've seen on matte paper with my 
7600.
>  > Needless to say, a rip is needed to control the LK and K 
independently.
>  > ...
> 
> I now have the latest version of IJC, which increases the ink 
limit.  The
> double Eboni jets now have an advantage of only about 0.01 density 
unit, at
> best, which is not worth the extra effort it takes to optimize a 
dual black
> system.  So, I'm abandoning the dual Eboni approach.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com

If IJC and QTR work the same as other RIPs, then you should be able 
to adjust the limits to a point where any single channel pushes so 
much ink that it pools on the surface (and may form large drops 
running down the paper). If you put too much ink down, you of course 
lose density. I've noticed that Eboni tends to lose density pretty 
fast when you go too far, then it will "fold" over and turn gray as 
you put more ink on paper. Shortly after that limit is exceeded it 
will start to pool and then run. The new matte black (WJ 1082) has a 
wider range where it doesn't lose density, and may show small 
increases in density all the way out to a "true" 100 % (at least on 
my 9500 & on certain papers).

WARNING, the manufacturer does not suggest diluting with the 
same "liquid" that you can use with the other "colors". This suggests 
that mixing it with the blue or cyan ink may not be a good idea. 
Might be best to let the RIP handle that mixing as it sprays ink onto 
the paper.

Re: [Digital BW] 7600 dmax (UT7 & Rip)

2005-06-01 by James Haney

Paul,

What matte paper are you using, and what are the dmax values you are 
seeing?

James Haney
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On May 27, 2005, at 10:17 AM, Paul Roark wrote:

>>  ... the dual Eboni setup in the
>> 7600 is producing the best dmax I've seen on matte paper with my 7600.
>> Needless to say, a rip is needed to control the LK and K 
>> independently.
>> ...
>
> I should add that this is combination is not some major breakthrough in
> matte dmax.  What it does is bring the 7600 up to what the 7500 and 
> 3000 can
> do with the Epson driver.  (I think the 7000 was not quite up to the 
> 7500.)
> So, what I'm doing is mostly offsetting the weakness Epson seems to 
> have
> ended up with in the 7600, probably because -- for Epson -- glossy 
> paper,
> speed, and small dot size are more important than matte paper dmax.
>
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other 
> resources as they are often being updated.
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish 
> to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting 
> this same page.
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to 
> keep them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or 
> flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from 
> the membership without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital 
> B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be 
> removed from the membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and 
> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group 
> Owner and Moderators. See “Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines” in the 
> Files section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
>
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE 
> PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE “OWNER” 
> AND “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE 
> LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, 
> CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, 
> DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE 
> LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  “OWNER” AND “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT 
> YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), 
> RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, 
> THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF 
> YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD 
> PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER 
> MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

RE: [Digital BW] 7600 dmax (UT7 & Rip)

2005-06-01 by Paul Roark

James,

BowHaus sent me a new version of IJC/OPM that opens the floodgates and lays
down so much ink the dual Eboni is no longer worth the effort.  I was
getting about 0.09 higher dmax with the dual Eboni.  The new IJC gets about
0.08 more than the Epson driver, so it's close enough.  I assume most rips
can do this.  The problem is a weak Epson driver.

The dmax figures for me on EEM were about 1.68, Alpha (Innova) about 1.69,
PhotoRag about 1.7.  But, these numbers will vary with densitometer, paper
and ink batch, reading method, etc.  So, comparing the absolute numbers may
not show much.  Suffice it to say that the dmax numbers are as close to as
high as the paper and ink can probably achieve.  

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of James
> Haney
> Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 6:23 AM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] 7600 dmax (UT7 & Rip)
> 
> Paul,
> 
> What matte paper are you using, and what are the dmax values you are
> seeing?
> 
> James Haney
> 
> On May 27, 2005, at 10:17 AM, Paul Roark wrote:
> 
> >>  ... the dual Eboni setup in the
> >> 7600 is producing the best dmax I've seen on matte paper with my 7600.
> >> Needless to say, a rip is needed to control the LK and K
> >> independently.
> >> ...
> >
> > I should add that this is combination is not some major breakthrough in
> > matte dmax.  What it does is bring the 7600 up to what the 7500 and
> > 3000 can
> > do with the Epson driver.  (I think the 7000 was not quite up to the
> > 7500.)
> > So, what I'm doing is mostly offsetting the weakness Epson seems to
> > have
> > ended up with in the 7600, probably because -- for Epson -- glossy
> > paper,
> > speed, and small dot size are more important than matte paper dmax.
> >
> > Paul
> > www.PaulRoark.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other
> > resources as they are often being updated.
> >
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> >
> > If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish
> > to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting
> > this same page.
> >
> > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to
> > keep them short.
> > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
> > flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from
> > the membership without notice.
> > - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital
> > B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be
> > removed from the membership.
> > - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
> > guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group
> > Owner and Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the
> > Files section:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> >
> > BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE
> > PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER"
> > AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE
> > LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL,
> > CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO,
> > DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE
> > LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
> > YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES),
> > RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW,
> > THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF
> > YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD
> > PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER
> > MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
> they are often being updated.
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
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> Please follow these basic guidelines:
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