Digital BW, The Print

Hello All,

I'm currently using a 2000P (with UT2 ink) for B&W and a 1270 (with MIS 
Glossy Pigments) for color.  Both printers are fitted up with CFS systems. 
The black ink in the 1270 is not part of the CFS, but uses MIS spongeless 
carts, to allow for easy changeover between PK and MK.  The UT2 on the 2000P 
does both surfaces, of course, with no changeover. (Thanks, Paul!)  Both 
systems work great most of the time, though I do a fair amount of tweaking 
and cleaning to keep the CFSs going strong.  I have never used a RIP.

But just when things are going good...

I've got the itch to move to a bigger printer.  I do equal amounts of color 
and B&W, and I do both glossy and matte (pretty much equally).  I would like 
to experiment more with BO printing, but the 1270 bands and the 2000P is too 
coarse for my taste.  I'm starting to sell some prints, and so I've got a 
bit of money to reinvest into printing gear.  The 4800 will be around $2000, 
I guess.  The 4000 is around $1600 from online sources, with a $300 rebate 
that's good til June 30.  So, call it $1300.  (Actually $1250, delivered, 
from ebuyer.com, after rebate.)  I'd like to simplify my life and have just 
one printer, and use UC inks.

Now... do I have the pros and cons straight?  Both printers are built like 
tanks, and both accept the big 220ml cartridges for economy.

It sounds like the 4800 will do good B&W and color, on gloss and matte 
paper, right out of the box.  But it requires a MK-to-PK changeover that 
costs about $38 each time.  And some sources indicate that its BO 
performance is not good.

The 4000 does good matte color, but some say it takes spraying to get good 
gloss color (because of differential reflection).  With QTR, I understand it 
will do good B&W using the UC inkset, though I guess spraying is still 
needed with glossy paper?  But it carries both blacks onboard.  And it does 
good BO printing.

So it sounds like the only real downside of the 4000 is the need to spray on 
glossy paper.  How real is that problem?  Are some semi-matte/semigloss 
papers acceptable with UC inks without spraying?

Any other factors I ought to consider?  Advice welcome!

Thanks,

John Broski

> From: John Broski <jbroski@...>
>

> I do equal amounts of color
> and B&W, and I do both glossy and matte (pretty much equally).


You will definitely want the new K3 inks.  The question is whether you will
be able to run them in a 4000 at some later date.


>I would like 
> to experiment more with BO printing, but the 1270 bands and the 2000P is too
> coarse for my taste.  I'm starting to sell some prints, and so I've got a
> bit of money to reinvest into printing gear.  The 4800 will be around $2000,
> I guess.  The 4000 is around $1600 from online sources, with a $300 rebate
> that's good til June 30.  So, call it $1300.  (Actually $1250, delivered,
> from ebuyer.com, after rebate.)  I'd like to simplify my life and have just
> one printer, and use UC inks.
> 
> Now... do I have the pros and cons straight?  Both printers are built like
> tanks, and both accept the big 220ml cartridges for economy.
> 
> It sounds like the 4800 will do good B&W and color, on gloss and matte
> paper, right out of the box.  But it requires a MK-to-PK changeover that
> costs about $38 each time.  And some sources indicate that its BO
> performance is not good.

BO doesn't work on glossy - even with the K3 inks.  Tons of bronzing.


> 
> The 4000 does good matte color, but some say it takes spraying to get good
> gloss color (because of differential reflection).  With QTR, I understand it
> will do good B&W using the UC inkset, though I guess spraying is still
> needed with glossy paper?

I have never got the spraying to be acceptable.  It is not necessary with
the K3 inks.

>But it carries both blacks onboard.  And it does
> good BO printing.

I very much doubt the BO printing is different between the two machines.
> 
> So it sounds like the only real downside of the 4000 is the need to spray on
> glossy paper.  How real is that problem?

See above

>Are some semi-matte/semigloss
> papers acceptable with UC inks without spraying?

Not in my opinion - at least not with any I have tried

> 
> Any other factors I ought to consider?  Advice welcome!

With the 4000 you don't have access to the light light black.  It supposedly
has better linearized tables and it also has a much much better driver.

Net net I would only buy the older machine if you thought you could run the
new inks with the new driver in it - ie at some point have it "upgraded" to
the 4800.


Steve

Steve,

BO is actually very good with the 4000 using MIS PKN and either  
Ilford Smooth Pearl or Epson Premium Semimatte.  No significant  
bronzing or gloss differential.  I was surprised to hear that the new  
k3 PK ink bronzes so badly on RC papers.

Carl

On Jun 7, 2005, at 6:38 PM, Steve Kale wrote:

>
>
>
>
>> From: John Broski <jbroski@...>
>>
>>
>
>
>> I do equal amounts of color
>> and B&W, and I do both glossy and matte (pretty much equally).
>>
>
>
> You will definitely want the new K3 inks.  The question is whether  
> you will
> be able to run them in a 4000 at some later date.
>
>
>
>> I would like
>> to experiment more with BO printing, but the 1270 bands and the  
>> 2000P is too
>> coarse for my taste.  I'm starting to sell some prints, and so  
>> I've got a
>> bit of money to reinvest into printing gear.  The 4800 will be  
>> around $2000,
>> I guess.  The 4000 is around $1600 from online sources, with a  
>> $300 rebate
>> that's good til June 30.  So, call it $1300.  (Actually $1250,  
>> delivered,
>> from ebuyer.com, after rebate.)  I'd like to simplify my life and  
>> have just
>> one printer, and use UC inks.
>>
>> Now... do I have the pros and cons straight?  Both printers are  
>> built like
>> tanks, and both accept the big 220ml cartridges for economy.
>>
>> It sounds like the 4800 will do good B&W and color, on gloss and  
>> matte
>> paper, right out of the box.  But it requires a MK-to-PK  
>> changeover that
>> costs about $38 each time.  And some sources indicate that its BO
>> performance is not good.
>>
>
> BO doesn't work on glossy - even with the K3 inks.  Tons of bronzing.
>
>
>
>>
>> The 4000 does good matte color, but some say it takes spraying to  
>> get good
>> gloss color (because of differential reflection).  With QTR, I  
>> understand it
>> will do good B&W using the UC inkset, though I guess spraying is  
>> still
>> needed with glossy paper?
>>
>
> I have never got the spraying to be acceptable.  It is not  
> necessary with
> the K3 inks.
>
>
>> But it carries both blacks onboard.  And it does
>> good BO printing.
>>
>
> I very much doubt the BO printing is different between the two  
> machines.
>
>>
>> So it sounds like the only real downside of the 4000 is the need  
>> to spray on
>> glossy paper.  How real is that problem?
>>
>
> See above
>
>
>> Are some semi-matte/semigloss
>> papers acceptable with UC inks without spraying?
>>
>
> Not in my opinion - at least not with any I have tried
>
>
>>
>> Any other factors I ought to consider?  Advice welcome!
>>
>
> With the 4000 you don't have access to the light light black.  It  
> supposedly
> has better linearized tables and it also has a much much better  
> driver.
>
> Net net I would only buy the older machine if you thought you could  
> run the
> new inks with the new driver in it - ie at some point have it  
> "upgraded" to
> the 4800.
>
>
> Steve
>
>
>
>

Really?  I unfortunately trashed the BO print I did and so I can't look at
it again.  However, at least compared to an Adv B&W print using all inks, it
did have quite bad bronzing.  It wasn't even remotely in the same league.

> From: Carl Schofield <scho@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 19:41:24 -0400
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Advice needed... 4000 vs. 4800???
> 
> Steve,
> 
> BO is actually very good with the 4000 using MIS PKN and either
> Ilford Smooth Pearl or Epson Premium Semimatte.  No significant
> bronzing or gloss differential.  I was surprised to hear that the new
> k3 PK ink bronzes so badly on RC papers.
> 
> Carl
> On Jun 7, 2005, at 6:38 PM, Steve Kale wrote:

One other 4000 vs 4800 factor:  you will chomp through the maintenance tank
in the 4800 far faster than the 4000 because that's where all the black ink
is dumped.  I do not know how much replacements are.

About $39 in the US

Bill Fernandez has published how to take the soaked goop out and replace it with absorbent 
material, thereby making your own "new maint tank".

Can't remember where I saw it though.

Scott

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale <stevekale@b...> wrote:

> 
> One other 4000 vs 4800 factor:  you will chomp through the maintenance tank
> in the 4800 far faster than the 4000 because that's where all the black ink
> is dumped.  I do not know how much replacements are.

--- John Broski <jbroski@...> wrote:
And some sources indicate that its BO 
performance is not good.

John,
Would you kindly refer spefically to those "sources"? 
I'm considering the 4800 specifically because of its
touted superiority for B@W as reported by some.  I've
had my 4000 for over a year and have been delighted
with it except my dMax on matte B@W do not compare
with the richness and density of my silver B@W.  I'd
hate to lose money on my 4000 and spend more $ for the
4800 only to learn that my gains would be minimal.  
Thank you for any consideration.
Joe Davajon



Drop by my site at <davajon.net>

Two or three thoughts:

my 4000 matte B&W is superior to Illford fiber based silver gelatin, so...

and BO is an "effect"; fine if you like it but not like a good rich black using all colors.

and if you are printing matte, don't expect a major difference with the 4800 on dmax: 
same matte black ink. (your gains will be minimal)

Scott

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Joe Davajon <davajon@s...> 
wrote:

> --- John Broski <jbroski@s...> wrote:
> And some sources indicate that its BO 
> performance is not good.
> 
> John,
> Would you kindly refer spefically to those "sources"? 
> I'm considering the 4800 specifically because of its
> touted superiority for B@W as reported by some.  I've
> had my 4000 for over a year and have been delighted
> with it except my dMax on matte B@W do not compare
> with the richness and density of my silver B@W.  I'd
> hate to lose money on my 4000 and spend more $ for the
> 4800 only to learn that my gains would be minimal.  
> Thank you for any consideration.
> Joe Davajon
> 
> 
> 
> Drop by my site at <davajon.net>

Steve Kale wrote:

>One other 4000 vs 4800 factor:  you will chomp through the maintenance tank
>in the 4800 far faster than the 4000 because that's where all the black ink
>is dumped.  I do not know how much replacements are.
>
>  
>
Steve,

Is the black line emptied into the waste tank or into the "change" ink 
cart you insert at changing matte to gloss black and vice versa?
As I understand your earlier report on the subject the heads are parked 
midway and the black ink is sucked back into the cart.

Ernst

Yes but why would you want to do black only with a 4800?  The Advanced B&W
output to photo paper is excellent and sooooo simple.  Dmax to matte paper
hasn't changed that much but a RIP will let you boost ink limits.  Still the
look of 1.7dMax is a long way off 2.4dMax.  BO's biggest strength is its
simplicity in achieving metamerism-free prints.  This is not an issue with
the 4800.

The bottom line is that the 4800 produces fantastic photo paper output
whereas the 4000 doesn't.  Toning is easy.  Matte paper output (other than
the toning through the driver) is not materially advanced in my view.

> From: Joe Davajon <davajon@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 18:54:41 -0700 (PDT)
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Advice needed... 4000 vs. 4800???
> 
> --- John Broski <jbroski@...> wrote:
> And some sources indicate that its BO
> performance is not good.
> 
> John,
> Would you kindly refer spefically to those "sources"?
> I'm considering the 4800 specifically because of its
> touted superiority for B@W as reported by some.  I've
> had my 4000 for over a year and have been delighted
> with it except my dMax on matte B@W do not compare
> with the richness and density of my silver B@W.  I'd
> hate to lose money on my 4000 and spend more $ for the
> 4800 only to learn that my gains would be minimal.
> Thank you for any consideration.
> Joe Davajon

Ernst

No black change cart is inserted - only C, M and Y and no ink is drained
into these.  I think earlier comments re these simply locking down the
vacuum so no C, M or Y ink moves are correct.  So K gets drained into the
maintenance tank and no other.  Then there is a small amount of all inks run
through at the end of the changeover to ensure all are primed for action.
The use of the maintenance tank is significant.  I have primed the printer
and swapped the black ink twice now - once to matte and then back to photo.
The maintenance tank life is now only 36% according to the utility.  If
someone can tell me how to clean and reset the maintenance tank so I can get
more life out of it I would appreciate it.

Steve

> From: Ernst Dinkla <E.Dinkla@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 10:20:02 +0200
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Advice needed... 4000 vs. 4800???
> 
> Steve Kale wrote:
> 
>> One other 4000 vs 4800 factor:  you will chomp through the maintenance tank
>> in the 4800 far faster than the 4000 because that's where all the black ink
>> is dumped.  I do not know how much replacements are.
>> 
>>  
>> 
> Steve,
> 
> Is the black line emptied into the waste tank or into the "change" ink
> cart you insert at changing matte to gloss black and vice versa?
> As I understand your earlier report on the subject the heads are parked
> midway and the black ink is sucked back into the cart.
> 
> Ernst

Steve,

I think that the chip resetter that MIS sells for the 7600 carts will  
also reset the chip on the maintenance tank.  You could clean out the  
tank and re-pack with an absorbent material like disposable diapers  
or sanitary napkins.  I've had my 4000 for one year now and have only  
had to change the maintenance tank once (I just bought a new one).

Carl

On Jun 8, 2005, at 7:35 AM, Steve Kale wrote:

> Ernst
>
> No black change cart is inserted - only C, M and Y and no ink is  
> drained
> into these.  I think earlier comments re these simply locking down the
> vacuum so no C, M or Y ink moves are correct.  So K gets drained  
> into the
> maintenance tank and no other.  Then there is a small amount of all  
> inks run
> through at the end of the changeover to ensure all are primed for  
> action.
> The use of the maintenance tank is significant.  I have primed the  
> printer
> and swapped the black ink twice now - once to matte and then back  
> to photo.
> The maintenance tank life is now only 36% according to the  
> utility.  If
> someone can tell me how to clean and reset the maintenance tank so  
> I can get
> more life out of it I would appreciate it.
>
> Steve
>
>
>
>> From: Ernst Dinkla <E.Dinkla@...>
>> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
>> Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 10:20:02 +0200
>> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
>> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Advice needed... 4000 vs. 4800???
>>
>> Steve Kale wrote:
>>
>>
>>> One other 4000 vs 4800 factor:  you will chomp through the  
>>> maintenance tank
>>> in the 4800 far faster than the 4000 because that's where all the  
>>> black ink
>>> is dumped.  I do not know how much replacements are.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> Steve,
>>
>> Is the black line emptied into the waste tank or into the "change"  
>> ink
>> cart you insert at changing matte to gloss black and vice versa?
>> As I understand your earlier report on the subject the heads are  
>> parked
>> midway and the black ink is sucked back into the cart.
>>
>> Ernst
>>
>
>
>
>
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Steve Kale wrote:

>Ernst
>
>No black change cart is inserted - only C, M and Y and no ink is drained
>into these.  I think earlier comments re these simply locking down the
>vacuum so no C, M or Y ink moves are correct.  So K gets drained into the
>maintenance tank and no other.  Then there is a small amount of all inks run
>through at the end of the changeover to ensure all are primed for action.
>The use of the maintenance tank is significant.  I have primed the printer
>and swapped the black ink twice now - once to matte and then back to photo.
>The maintenance tank life is now only 36% according to the utility.  If
>someone can tell me how to clean and reset the maintenance tank so I can get
>more life out of it I would appreciate it.
>
>Steve
>
>
>  
>
On the 9600 the MIS resetter will reset the waste box too but I have no 
idea whether that works on the 4800. There is another method for the 
9600, 7600 etc described from time to time on the Wide Format list, 
could be in the file upload of that list.

Steve, I still am a bit surprised about this black ink change but I 
think I mixed up the cart systems of the 4800 and the 7800/9800 in my 
mind. The last are pressurised carts like the 10000 has and the method 
there may be different and more like I do it on the 10000.

Ernst

It's odd.  There is a reference in the manual that says " If REPLACE
CONVERSION CRTG appears on the LCD , press the PAUSE button.  Remove the old
conversion cartridge(s) from the left ink compartment, and then insert the
new conversion cartridge(s)."  But it also says that they are not sold as a
consumable anymore.  There is no black conversion cartridge, just C M and Y.
There is a chip on the maintenance tank - I have not tried the MIS resetter.
Re the use of this tank, I am just going by what it says in the utility.  To
me it looks like it has plenty of life left - much more so than 36%.

> From: Ernst Dinkla <E.Dinkla@...>

> On the 9600 the MIS resetter will reset the waste box too but I have no
> idea whether that works on the 4800. There is another method for the
> 9600, 7600 etc described from time to time on the Wide Format list,
> could be in the file upload of that list.
> 
> Steve, I still am a bit surprised about this black ink change but I
> think I mixed up the cart systems of the 4800 and the 7800/9800 in my
> mind. The last are pressurised carts like the 10000 has and the method
> there may be different and more like I do it on the 10000.
> 
> Ernst
>

Was the Epson utility roughly accurate?  Makes sense though because you are
not dumping 90ml of ink by swapping black ink.

> From: Carl Schofield <scho@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2005 08:36:02 -0400
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Advice needed... 4000 vs. 4800???
> 
> Steve,
> 
> I think that the chip resetter that MIS sells for the 7600 carts will
> also reset the chip on the maintenance tank.  You could clean out the
> tank and re-pack with an absorbent material like disposable diapers
> or sanitary napkins.  I've had my 4000 for one year now and have only
> had to change the maintenance tank once (I just bought a new one).
> 
> Carl

You could try this http://www.inkjetart.com/forum/viewtopic.php?
p=905#905 Don't know if it will work, but might be worth trying.

Thanks!

> From: dfaprinting <dfaprinting@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 15:39:50 -0000
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Advice needed... 4000 vs. 4800???
> 
> http://www.inkjetart.com/forum/viewtopic.php?
> p=905#905

>Matte paper output...is not materially advanced in my view.

Is is smoother, more "dotless" looking, because of 3 blacks in ABW
mode?

How about luminance?


Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Yes the three blacks provides a much less "dotty" matte (or photo) greyscale
but not materially so when compared to a dedicated B&W ink set obviously.

Luminance or rather reflectance is reflected (excuse the pun) in the L* and
density figures I have posted.  L* is very linear (at least for the "darker"
setting), with a maximum not materially different from the 4000 from what I
understand.  Because it is linear and matte dMax remains weak (1.75 at best,
Permajet Alpha is down at 1.55ish), prints print materially lighter than on
a good display without a soft proof and with less contrast/gamma, much like
QTR or even IJC/OPM out of the box - although these RIPs allow greater ink
lay-down and hence you can ensure maximum density for any paper whereas ink
limits can not be adjusted in the Epson driver.  For matte prints you will
still need a "print s curve" or better yet convert the image to the QTR-Gray
Matte Photo icc profile before sending it to the printer.

In short, don't look to the 4800 to massively improve matte output over and
above what can be achieved with a 4000 and QTR (especially with a B&W ink
set).  The new driver does, however, make it materially easier to tone an
image which in itself is a big jump over messing with writing ink curves -
think Imageprint in the Epson driver.  Matte paper density has not changed -
the 4800 uses the same matte black ink and so dynamic range has not been
materially increased.

Photo paper output is a whole different story.  It is very, very tough to
prefer a B&W image on say HPR or PJA versus the same image on, say, EPSG
with the new inks - except in cases where a B&W image does not have large
amounts of deep black.  Where large amounts of "good black" are needed (a
lot of pixels with a value less than, say, 38) the matte ink just can't
compete.  If an image were largely mid-tones to highlights, however, with
little deep black, I would likely prefer the finish of a good matte paper.

Steve 

> From: Clayton Jones <cj@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 16:46:25 -0000
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Advice needed... 4000 vs. 4800???
> 
>> Matte paper output...is not materially advanced in my view.
> 
> Is is smoother, more "dotless" looking, because of 3 blacks in ABW
> mode?
> 
> How about luminance?
> 
> 
> Regards,
> Clayton

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale 
<stevekale@b...> wrote:
> Thanks!
> 
> 
> > From: dfaprinting <dfaprinting@y...>
> > Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> > Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 15:39:50 -0000
> > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> > Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Advice needed... 4000 vs. 4800???
> > 
> > http://www.inkjetart.com/forum/viewtopic.php?
> > p=905#905

Lets us know if it really works. Even if it gets you into the service 
menu, then you could find your way to the rest of it.

> Still the
>look of 1.7dMax is a long way off >2.4dMax.

I have two questions about those numbers. IIRC 2.0 or thereabouts was a 
fairly typical dMax number for silver papers and in actual printing 90% of 
dMax or roughly 1.8 was about the "blackest black" that was actually desired 
(because of the loss of detail in slighly lighter shadow areas printing the 
darkest  shadows at dMax caused). At least in part because of this, the ANSI 
standard for measuring silver papers' density range doesn't begin at dMax, 
ANSI uses 90% of dMax as the starting point.

With Eboni matte black ink in the 2200 and printing on EEM, I measure dMax 
at 1.8 or about the "blackest black" I would print at if I were making a 
traditional silver print (at least I think it is, dMax numbers of silver 
papers are from memory, it's been several years since I actually tested 
papers in a darkroom).

So I guess I'm asking two questions: (1) where does the 2.4 number in the 
quoted statement come from? (2) assuming it's a number you or someone else 
has obtained in printing a test strip or making a print, is it considered 
desirable in digital printing to print important shadow areas at that high a 
dMax (i.e. is digital printing different from traditional silver printing in 
that respect?).

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Steve Kale" <stevekale@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, June 08, 2005 7:29 AM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Advice needed... 4000 vs. 4800???


Yes but why would you want to do black only with a 4800?  The Advanced B&W
output to photo paper is excellent and sooooo simple.  Dmax to matte paper
hasn't changed that much but a RIP will let you boost ink limits.  Still the
look of 1.7dMax is a long way off 2.4dMax.  BO's biggest strength is its
simplicity in achieving metamerism-free prints.  This is not an issue with
the 4800.

The bottom line is that the 4800 produces fantastic photo paper output
whereas the 4000 doesn't.  Toning is easy.  Matte paper output (other than
the toning through the driver) is not materially advanced in my view.


> From: Joe Davajon <davajon@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2005 18:54:41 -0700 (PDT)
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Advice needed... 4000 vs. 4800???
>
> --- John Broski <jbroski@...> wrote:
> And some sources indicate that its BO
> performance is not good.
>
> John,
> Would you kindly refer spefically to those "sources"?
> I'm considering the 4800 specifically because of its
> touted superiority for B@W as reported by some.  I've
> had my 4000 for over a year and have been delighted
> with it except my dMax on matte B@W do not compare
> with the richness and density of my silver B@W.  I'd
> hate to lose money on my 4000 and spend more $ for the
> 4800 only to learn that my gains would be minimal.
> Thank you for any consideration.
> Joe Davajon





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BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT 
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FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY 
DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, 
GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  "OWNER" AND 
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POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY 
TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR 
ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY 
THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER 
MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.

Yahoo! Groups Links

> From: Brian Ellis <bellis60@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 17:58:23 -0400
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Advice needed... 4000 vs. 4800???
> 
>> Still the
>> look of 1.7dMax is a long way off >2.4dMax.
> 
> I have two questions about those numbers. IIRC 2.0 or thereabouts was a
> fairly typical dMax number for silver papers and in actual printing 90% of
> dMax or roughly 1.8 was about the "blackest black" that was actually desired
> (because of the loss of detail in slighly lighter shadow areas printing the
> darkest  shadows at dMax caused). At least in part because of this, the ANSI
> standard for measuring silver papers' density range doesn't begin at dMax,
> ANSI uses 90% of dMax as the starting point.
> 
> With Eboni matte black ink in the 2200 and printing on EEM, I measure dMax
> at 1.8 

EEM produces a fantastic black for today's matte paper and pigment inks.  I
get 1.72 dry (unsprayed).  Your 1.8 is pretty darn good.  But Permajet Alpha
is down around 1.55 on the 4800.  There is a huge difference in the look of
these two "blacks" - even without putting them side by side.

> or about the "blackest black" I would print at if I were making a
> traditional silver print (at least I think it is, dMax numbers of silver
> papers are from memory, it's been several years since I actually tested
> papers in a darkroom).
> 
> So I guess I'm asking two questions: (1) where does the 2.4 number in the
> quoted statement come from?

Measured density of 100% K patch.  (Also measured off actual prints.)

> (2) assuming it's a number you or someone else
> has obtained in printing a test strip or making a print, is it considered
> desirable in digital printing to print important shadow areas at that high a
> dMax (i.e. is digital printing different from traditional silver printing in
> that respect?).

How much of an image is printed at "pure black" depends on the image.  You
may have none of the image bar a couple of pixels at pure black (or none at
all) or, in the case of something contrasted against a black background, a
very large proportion.  How you print the other parts of the image relative
to this black point is up to you.  You have much more control over this in
the digital domain.  If by "important shadows" you mean the darkest areas of
an image where detail is important then I would obviously not be printing it
at 100% black.  Don't be constrained by benchmarks set by the narrower
constraints of former processes.

My display can produce a black of L* 2.56 which is equivalent to a density
of 2.55 so it is properly capable of displaying a density of 2.45 when I
measure a step wedge for EPSG.  With a 256-step wedge, I can see the
difference between patch 0 and patch 5 on the display.  The difference
between 2.28, patch 7, and 2.45 is very very easy to see.  (Of course
looking at a 256-step wedge printed means one just sees a gradual reduction
in black to white and it is much more difficult.  I have not bothered to
print adjacent stepped patches to do the same test in a print but I would
not expect too greater a difference.)   By contrast, a density of 1.72 is
equivalent to patch 37 - only 86% "black".  Your black point is only 86% of
what it might otherwise be.  If mid grey is printed the same on both prints,
there is considerable compression of shadow detail in the matte print.   You
can reveal more shadow detail in photo print.

Personally I doubt there is much practical difference in aesthetic quality
between a print whose dynamic range extends to a density of, say, 2.2 vs
2.45 - probably even lower than 2.2.  But with matte at 1.7/8  or so at
best, there's a lot to play for on matte paper today.

I think each person will make their own subjective judgement about the
relative strengths and weaknesses of various ink and paper combinations.
Personally, I like colour prints that don't require "vivid colour" to be on
matte paper.  That blue sky doesn't have to hit a massive density to still
look great.  With B&W, because you are working with just one dimension
dynamic range becomes all the more important - it's all you are playing
with.  That's why we crave better blacks much more so than the colour guys.
We want black skies even though they weren't black or even super super dark
blue to begin with.   I was never satisfied with photo paper prints until
the 4800 due to bronzing etc.  They look great with the K3 inks.  Would I
prefer to get the same dynamic range on matte paper?  Absolutely!  I prefer
the finish.  But it's not available today and many B&W images on matte paper
now pale in comparison to identical images on photo paper.  I don't think it
will be long before matte ink closes the gap  ;-)

No go.  The "clear counters" is not there - only "view counters"  :-(

> From: dfaprinting <dfaprinting@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 20:18:13 -0000
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Advice needed... 4000 vs. 4800???
> 
> http://www.inkjetart.com/forum/viewtopic.php?
>>> p=905#905

DON'T CLEAR COUNTERS.  It will cause the machine to think it needs to recharge all the ink 
lines and spend a ton of ink, just like when you first started up.

Scott

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale <stevekale@b...> wrote:

> No go.  The "clear counters" is not there - only "view counters"  :-(
> 
> 
> > From: dfaprinting <dfaprinting@y...>
> > Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> > Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 20:18:13 -0000
> > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> > Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Advice needed... 4000 vs. 4800???
> > 
> > http://www.inkjetart.com/forum/viewtopic.php?
> >>> p=905#905

Yes I think the proper option is to reset the chip on the tank (or stump up
for a new one)

> From: Scott Graham <gebilwil@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 13:31:04 -0000
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Advice needed... 4000 vs. 4800???
> 
> DON'T CLEAR COUNTERS.  It will cause the machine to think it needs to recharge
> all the ink 
> lines and spend a ton of ink, just like when you first started up.
> 
> Scott
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale
> <stevekale@b...> wrote:
>> No go.  The "clear counters" is not there - only "view counters"  :-(
>> 
>> 
>>> From: dfaprinting <dfaprinting@y...>
>>> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
>>> Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2005 20:18:13 -0000
>>> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
>>> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Advice needed... 4000 vs. 4800???
>>> 
>>> http://www.inkjetart.com/forum/viewtopic.php?
>>>>> p=905#905

But the tip, which applied to the 4000, only reset the maintenance tank
counter....

> From: Scott Graham <gebilwil@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 13:31:04 -0000
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Advice needed... 4000 vs. 4800???
> 
> DON'T CLEAR COUNTERS.  It will cause the machine to think it needs to recharge
> all the ink 
> lines and spend a ton of ink, just like when you first started up.
> 
> Scott

Quite right, if you reset the maintenance tank.  But if someone (me unfortunately) were to 
"reset counters" it costs a bundle.

I struggled and struggled to find the "reset maint tank" option, and finally thought "well 
this new firmware must be different" so I reset the counters.

A.  it costs a ton of ink

and 

B.  it fills whatever little maint tank space you had left.

So,

Power up holding down the 3 recommended buttons (paper mode and the two feeds as I 
recall).

At this point I saw something like "test mode" with a pointer to the right implying a 
submenu, and no additional choices on that level were implied to me; must have had my 
head in a bag.  No matter how hard I searched I couldn't find the described maint tank 
reset in the submenus.

I also couldn't left arrow back to "test mode..." once I had started down the submenu path.  
So I, well let's not go there.

Turns out the up and down arrows will move you from "test mode (or whatever)" to an 
option that is CLEARLY a maint tank reset.  That works great.

Scott

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale <stevekale@b...> 
wrote:

> But the tip, which applied to the 4000, only reset the maintenance tank
> counter....
> 
> 
> > From: Scott Graham <gebilwil@n...>
> > Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> > Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2005 13:31:04 -0000
> > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> > Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Advice needed... 4000 vs. 4800???
> > 
> > DON'T CLEAR COUNTERS.  It will cause the machine to think it needs to recharge
> > all the ink 
> > lines and spend a ton of ink, just like when you first started up.
> > 
> > Scott

Paper Paper,
which one....photo paper.

Looking for the Best, and cheapest,
photo paper that is Acid-Free / Lignin-Free Natural White / Buffered?, for
printing B&W photo¹s printing photo off a Epson C86 using MIS inks.

Heared Kodak was good. ( but which ones ? )

Need some model# of photo papers...
to those whom already been there, and done that...

Big Thanks -
Rick

Rick,

There's a Great Paper Chase at http://www.cjcom.net/articles/digiprn5.htm

You'll probably find what your looking for.

Cheers,
André

Andre,

>There's a Great Paper Chase at
>http://www.cjcom.net/articles/digiprn5.htm

Thanks for the mention.  The article has been updated with some of the
new papers, and more will be coming soon.

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Clayton

This article has grown and gets better with every update!

Thanks for all teh great research!!

Best

Jim Doyle


J. Doyle Enterprises LLC
114 Old Orchard Rd
Cherry Hill, NJ 08003
856-424-8660
http://www.shadesofpaper.com
AOL IM: Brokerup99

  -----Original Message-----
  From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Clayton
Jones
  Sent: Saturday, June 11, 2005 6:36 AM
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
  Subject: [Digital BW] The Great Paper Chase - Updated.


  Andre,

  >There's a Great Paper Chase at
  >http://www.cjcom.net/articles/digiprn5.htm

  Thanks for the mention.  The article has been updated with some of the
  new papers, and more will be coming soon.

  Regards,
  Clayton


  Info on black and white digital printing at
  http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm





  Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
they are often being updated.

  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

  If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
page.

  Please follow these basic guidelines:
  - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
  - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
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Moderators. See “Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines” in the Files section:
  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/

  BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE “OWNER” AND
“MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU
FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY
DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS,
GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  “OWNER” AND
“MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE
POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY
TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR
ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY
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--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale <stevekale@b...> wrote:
> 
> One other 4000 vs 4800 factor:  you will chomp through the maintenance tank
> in the 4800 far faster than the 4000 because that's where all the black ink
> is dumped.  I do not know how much replacements are.

I don't let our 7600 pump ink into the maintainance tank when I change over. I let it piddle on a sheet of plain paper. Commonly called "the African method", this was concocted by Rüdiger Schäfer of South Africa.

http://www.outbackphoto.com/printinginsights/pi013/Epson9600.html

Scroll down a ways until you hit this item: "4/25/2004 How to change from matte black to photo black without wasting money and ink"

Does a single tank changeover on a 7600 using just 12ml of ink and a couple of feet of cheap paper. I assume a 4800's (or 4000's) lines aren't any longer than a 7600's lines.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "koloshor" <wiz@n...> wrote:
 
> I don't let our 7600 pump ink into the maintainance tank when I change over. I let it piddle on a sheet of plain paper. Commonly called "the African method", this was concocted by Rüdiger Schäfer of South Africa.

Here's Rüdiger's origional post from the Epson Wide Format yahoo group.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EpsonWideFormat/message/43923

Ciao!

Joe

Thanks but the menu items are quite different on the 4800.

> From: koloshor <wiz@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 13:51:51 -0000
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Advice needed... 4000 vs. 4800???
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "koloshor" <wiz@n...>
> wrote:
>  
>> I don't let our 7600 pump ink into the maintainance tank when I change over.
>> I let it piddle on a sheet of plain paper. Commonly called "the African
>> method", this was concocted by Rüdiger Schäfer of South Africa.
> 
> Here's Rüdiger's origional post from the Epson Wide Format yahoo group.
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EpsonWideFormat/message/43923
> 
> Ciao!
> 
> Joe