Digital BW, The Print

G'day -

Just received my 2400 printer and would be grateful if someone could suggest where I might be able to purchase Epson Enhanced Matt, Epson Premium Luster and Hahnemuhle photo rag in Australia.

Many thanks,

Ted Shaw

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Ted,

On 9 Jun 2005, at 5:04 PM, Ted Shaw wrote:
> Just received my 2400 printer and would be grateful if someone could 
> suggest where I might be able to purchase Epson Enhanced Matt, Epson 
> Premium Luster and Hahnemuhle photo rag in Australia.

Not sure about the Epson papers - epson.com.au list them both so I 
guess they're available from Epson stockists - but I get my Hahnny from 
Image Science in North Melbourne.

<http://www.imagescience.com.au/>

It's run by a guy called Jeremy Daalder who is very good value in my 
experience - fast friendly & efficient.

Cheers,

Richard
--  who is not affiliated with IS, just a happy customer

Ted Shaw wrote:
> Just received my 2400 printer and would be grateful if someone could
> suggest where I might be able to purchase Epson Enhanced Matt, Epson
> Premium Luster and Hahnemuhle photo rag in Australia.

Ted

The paper sold as Epson Enhanced Matt in America is still called by its old name
in Australia: Epson Archival Matte. It's available in lots of retail outlets.

Epson Premium Luster (note spelling) is listed on the epson.com.au website,
listed among the Pro Graphics Papers. Ask Epson for the names of local
suppliers.

Image Products are Australian agents for Photo Rag and other Hahnem\ufffdhle papers.
There is a list of dealers on their website -- www.imageproducts.com.au

Peter Marquis-Kyle
www.marquis-kyle.com.au

I didn't realise the new Epsons were available in Australia as yet. 
Ted, from where did you purchase yours?



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Ted Shaw" 
<tedshaw@o...> wrote:
> G'day -
> 
> Just received my 2400 printer and would be grateful if someone could 
suggest where I might be able to purchase Epson Enhanced Matt, Epson 
Premium Luster and Hahnemuhle photo rag in Australia.

> 
> Many thanks,
> 
> Ted Shaw
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Is anybody in Australia also selling Somerselt Velvet papers or 
something similar?




--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Ted Shaw" 
<tedshaw@o...> wrote:
> G'day -
> 
> Just received my 2400 printer and would be grateful if someone could 
suggest where I might be able to purchase Epson Enhanced Matt, Epson 
Premium Luster and Hahnemuhle photo rag in Australia.

> 
> Many thanks,
> 
> Ted Shaw
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

parasko67 wrote:
"I didn't realise the new Epsons were available in Australia as yet. 
Ted, from where did you purchase yours?"

I purchased my 2400 printer from AIM Digital Imaging - www.ausmedia.com.au
Phone: (03) 9897 3777
Cost was $1650 AUD including GST and shipping

Cheers,

Ted Shaw


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

We sell Somerset Enhanced Velvet in all sizes A4 through to Mill Sheets 890
x 1188mm, as well as Somerset Satin and Textured in all available sizes and
at good prices ... 

We are based in Melbourne but can ship anywhere.

Details below:


Tony Kelly
________________________
Digital Lucida
478-480 Rathdowne Street
Carlton North
Victoria 3054
Australia

Ph.  +61 3 9349 5159

http://www.digital-lucida.com.au

-----------------------------

on 11/6/05 12:29 AM, parasko67 at wrote:

> Is anybody in Australia also selling Somerselt Velvet papers or
> something similar?
>

Not a great paper.  Just doesn't cut it in the dMax department.

> From: Tony Kelly <tonyk@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 10:39:54 +1000
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW]Epson & Hahnemuhle paper in Australia
> 
> We sell Somerset Enhanced Velvet in all sizes A4 through to Mill Sheets 890
> x 1188mm, as well as Somerset Satin and Textured in all available sizes and
> at good prices ...
> 
> We are based in Melbourne but can ship anywhere.
> 
> Details below:
> 
> 
> Tony Kelly
> ________________________
> Digital Lucida
> 478-480 Rathdowne Street
> Carlton North
> Victoria 3054
> Australia
> 
> Ph.  +61 3 9349 5159
> 
> http://www.digital-lucida.com.au

Steve,

I don't know if the D-max department is all you & others make of it.

Would you care to enlighten those of us who actually like using this or
other papers that don't measure up in your opinion as to what exactly it is
that makes them inferior as far as print quality is concerned ?

Aside from D-max issues you may have experienced ...

I'm referring to information that is of use to those of us who print without
measuring. Maybe this helps ...  how black does a black have to be if it is
perceived visually to be black.

As far as I'm concerned Somerset can and in my experience does produce some
beautiful prints and good blacks .. I'll agree that this may be down to a
lot of factors including inks, printers, media selection and the like, but I
have difficulty seeing a real problem with this paper.

You statement needs some qualifying and I for one would appreciate more
information than you have provided ...

Or is d-max to some the be all and end all,

I though beautiful prints might come into it ..

-------------------------------

on 11/6/05 6:06 PM, Steve Kale at wrote:

> Not a great paper.  Just doesn't cut it in the dMax department.
> 
>

I have had bunch of this paper and, in simple terms, it does not have the
dynamic range (visual and measured) of other papers with similar finishes.
Therefore, I prefer the other papers.


> From: Tony Kelly <tonyk@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 18:40:43 +1000
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW]Epson & Hahnemuhle paper in Australia
> 
> Steve,
> 
> I don't know if the D-max department is all you & others make of it.
> 
> Would you care to enlighten those of us who actually like using this or
> other papers that don't measure up in your opinion as to what exactly it is
> that makes them inferior as far as print quality is concerned ?
> 
> Aside from D-max issues you may have experienced ...
> 
> I'm referring to information that is of use to those of us who print without
> measuring. Maybe this helps ...  how black does a black have to be if it is
> perceived visually to be black.

A subjective issue.  At what point is "black" just dark grey?


> 
> As far as I'm concerned Somerset can and in my experience does produce some
> beautiful prints and good blacks .. I'll agree that this may be down to a
> lot of factors including inks, printers, media selection and the like, but I
> have difficulty seeing a real problem with this paper.
> 
> You statement needs some qualifying and I for one would appreciate more
> information than you have provided ...
> 
> Or is d-max to some the be all and end all,

Dynamic range, propensity to flake, finish texture, longevity without
fading, colour temp of the blank substrate are all important properties.
> 
> I though beautiful prints might come into it ..
> 

Put the beautiful image on the best paper you can get.  The dynamic range of
SEV is not as good as many other papers in its "range".  JMHO

Steve,

Thanks I appreciate your comments but wonder at our differing experiences
.....


on 11/6/05 6:50 PM, Steve Kale at wrote:

> I have had bunch of this paper and, in simple terms, it does not have the
> dynamic range (visual and measured) of other papers with similar finishes.
> Therefore, I prefer the other papers.

I wonder what papers with similar finishes you prefer? I know there are
other good ones, just wondering what your preferred ones are ..

>> 
>> I'm referring to information that is of use to those of us who print without
>> measuring. Maybe this helps ...  how black does a black have to be if it is
>> perceived visually to be black.
> 
> A subjective issue.  At what point is "black" just dark grey?
> 

Ummmm .. I'd say black is black if that is how it looks and I've printed
some beautiful blacks (not dark greys on this paper) .. I mean rich velvety
blacks ... Nothing like dark grey ..

 
>> Or is d-max to some the be all and end all,
> 
> Dynamic range, propensity to flake, finish texture, longevity without
> fading, colour temp of the blank substrate are all important properties.

Personally never experienced flaking or longevity issues (at least not yet)
.. As for dynamic range that I accept is surpassed by some papers, finish
texture and colour temp are purely personal preference and nothing to do
with what makes a paper superior in objective terms ...

>> 
>> I though beautiful prints might come into it ..
>> 
> 
> Put the beautiful image on the best paper you can get.  The dynamic range of
> SEV is not as good as many other papers in its "range".  JMHO


Okay, it seems it's about opinion  and personal preferences largely .. I
wouldn't exclude any paper on the basis of someone's likes or dislikes if it
suits many others though ..

We've printed some great images on this paper and whilst it might not suit
all work or all printers it has it's place ...

 
At least we have some good choices ..


 
>

Yes.  I think one should try it but I don't like collecting boxes of paper
that I will eventually never use. I'd recommend that someone wanting to try
the paper only request a test pack before buying a box. I have three boxes
of SEV in the closet.  It's a pity because I do like the finish and it
doesn't have the flaking issues of say HPR.  And it has a bright looking
white.  But I have found the blacks to be weak (at least with MIS UC inks on
the 2100) and that's a killer for me.  They are just so important with B&W
(much more so than with colour work).  I have for now settled with HPR and
Permajet Alpha as my matte papers (each of which I spray with Lascaux
Fixative). PA is much warmer than HPR.  But since I got my 4800 I much
prefer photo paper, specifically Epson Premium Semi Gloss, for B&W.  The
extra dynamic range is just so compelling.  But I won't stop wishing for a
better matte black...  :-)

> From: Tony Kelly <tonyk@...>

> Okay, it seems it's about opinion  and personal preferences largely .. I
> wouldn't exclude any paper on the basis of someone's likes or dislikes if it
> suits many others though

Steve -

Can you fill me in on the differences you see and like
in Premium Semi-Gloss vs. Luster?  Up until very
recently I have been printing nothing but color, and
am just now getting into B&W.  For color I have loved
Premium Luster, but was wondering what the advantages
are with semi-gloss for B&W work?

Peter

--- Steve Kale <stevekale@...> wrote:

Yes.  I think one should try it but I don't like
collecting boxes of paper
that I will eventually never use. I'd recommend that
someone wanting to try
the paper only request a test pack before buying a
box. I have three boxes
of SEV in the closet.  It's a pity because I do like
the finish and it
doesn't have the flaking issues of say HPR.  And it
has a bright looking
white.  But I have found the blacks to be weak (at
least with MIS UC inks on
the 2100) and that's a killer for me.  They are just
so important with B&W
(much more so than with colour work).  I have for now
settled with HPR and
Permajet Alpha as my matte papers (each of which I
spray with Lascaux
Fixative). PA is much warmer than HPR.  But since I
got my 4800 I much
prefer photo paper, specifically Epson Premium Semi
Gloss, for B&W.  The
extra dynamic range is just so compelling.  But I
won't stop wishing for a
better matte black...  :-)


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Steve,

I totally agree that their is no one perfect paper for all, and yes I think
it is important to try various papers before deciding on what suits you
best. I have used Somerset Velvet for 4 years now and it is a preferred
paper of choice with my particular ink and printer set-up, not for all work
but for a lot of it.

I have as I said never experienced flaking with this paper and I have
produced blacks that no-one yet has questioned.

I believe Somerset is more suited to Fine Art printing however and that
those seeking a more conventional "Photographic" print may be better advised
to look at other papers.

We are all looking for the perfect medium for our own work, this is one
valid choice among many that offer different levels of appeal or
performance.

--------------

on 11/6/05 7:36 PM, Steve Kale at wrote:

> Yes.  I think one should try it but I don't like collecting boxes of paper
> that I will eventually never use. I'd recommend that someone wanting to try
> the paper only request a test pack before buying a box. I have three boxes
> of SEV in the closet.  It's a pity because I do like the finish and it
> doesn't have the flaking issues of say HPR.  And it has a bright looking
> white.  But I have found the blacks to be weak (at least with MIS UC inks on
> the 2100) and that's a killer for me.  They are just so important with B&W
> (much more so than with colour work).  I have for now settled with HPR and
> Permajet Alpha as my matte papers (each of which I spray with Lascaux
> Fixative). PA is much warmer than HPR.  But since I got my 4800 I much
> prefer photo paper, specifically Epson Premium Semi Gloss, for B&W.  The
> extra dynamic range is just so compelling.  But I won't stop wishing for a
> better matte black...  :-)
> 
> 
>> From: Tony Kelly <tonyk@...>
> 
>> Okay, it seems it's about opinion  and personal preferences largely .. I
>> wouldn't exclude any paper on the basis of someone's likes or dislikes if it
>> suits many others though
> 
> 
>

Steve:

Do you have a website where we can view some of your work? You have been
providing quite a bit of information on this forum. It would be helpful to
see what type of images you prefer. It helps us to understand where you are
coming from.

Gary Brown
www.pbase.com/garyallenbrown

----- Original Message -----

From: "Steve Kale" <stevekale@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, June 11, 2005 1:50 AM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW]Epson & Hahnemuhle paper in Australia


I have had bunch of this paper and, in simple terms, it does not have the
dynamic range (visual and measured) of other papers with similar finishes.
Therefore, I prefer the other papers.


> From: Tony Kelly <tonyk@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 18:40:43 +1000
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW]Epson & Hahnemuhle paper in Australia
>
> Steve,
>
> I don't know if the D-max department is all you & others make of it.
>
> Would you care to enlighten those of us who actually like using this or
> other papers that don't measure up in your opinion as to what exactly it
is
> that makes them inferior as far as print quality is concerned ?
>
> Aside from D-max issues you may have experienced ...
>
> I'm referring to information that is of use to those of us who print
without
> measuring. Maybe this helps ...  how black does a black have to be if it
is
> perceived visually to be black.

A subjective issue.  At what point is "black" just dark grey?


>
> As far as I'm concerned Somerset can and in my experience does produce
some
> beautiful prints and good blacks .. I'll agree that this may be down to a
> lot of factors including inks, printers, media selection and the like, but
I
> have difficulty seeing a real problem with this paper.
>
> You statement needs some qualifying and I for one would appreciate more
> information than you have provided ...
>
> Or is d-max to some the be all and end all,

Dynamic range, propensity to flake, finish texture, longevity without
fading, colour temp of the blank substrate are all important properties.
>
> I though beautiful prints might come into it ..
>

Put the beautiful image on the best paper you can get.  The dynamic range of
SEV is not as good as many other papers in its "range".  JMHO






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I have been a little schizo on these two.  Firstly, Epson don't seem to sell
Lustre in lovely old England and so I have only bought a single pack off A3+
while in New York.  I loved the initial prints with the old Epson UCs - I
liked the "silky" texture.  (Sorry it is not easy to describe.)  But these
inks needed a glop coating (even colour prints) which largely demolished
that silky look.  Ilford Smooth Pearl has too sparkly a sheen for my liking
although I continue to use it because it is cheaper than the Epson papers.
Semi-gloss has a nice surface texture.  All have comparable dMax and paper
white and so the dynamic range for B&W is similar.  And the new K3 inks rock
on these papers.  So in the end it comes down to subtle differences in
surface texture.  I'd say try a few sheets of each!

> From: Peter Johngren <pjohngren@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 06:26:50 -0700 (PDT)
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW]Epson & Hahnemuhle paper in Australia
> 
> 
> Steve -
> 
> Can you fill me in on the differences you see and like
> in Premium Semi-Gloss vs. Luster?  Up until very
> recently I have been printing nothing but color, and
> am just now getting into B&W.  For color I have loved
> Premium Luster, but was wondering what the advantages
> are with semi-gloss for B&W work?
> 
> Peter

Steve -

What is a "glop coating"?  I use Premium Luster with
Ultra Chrome inks and they look terrific, and I don't
coat the prints with anything.  I keep the whitest
white below 255, like at 247, and the blacks above 6.

Peter

--- Steve Kale <stevekale@...> wrote:

I have been a little schizo on these two.  Firstly,
Epson don't seem to sell
Lustre in lovely old England and so I have only bought
a single pack off A3+
while in New York.  I loved the initial prints with
the old Epson UCs - I
liked the "silky" texture.  (Sorry it is not easy to
describe.)  But these
inks needed a glop coating (even colour prints) which
largely demolished
that silky look.  Ilford Smooth Pearl has too sparkly
a sheen for my liking
although I continue to use it because it is cheaper
than the Epson papers.
Semi-gloss has a nice surface texture.  All have
comparable dMax and paper
white and so the dynamic range for B&W is similar. 
And the new K3 inks rock
on these papers.  So in the end it comes down to
subtle differences in
surface texture.  I'd say try a few sheets of each!



__________________________________________________
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The 1st gen ultrachrome inks suffer badly from bronzing and "gloss
differential" (B&W and colour).  Glop is short for gloss optimizer which
Epson uses on the R800/R1800 printers.  It is not needed with the 2nd gen K3
inks.

> From: Peter Johngren <pjohngren@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2005 14:24:57 -0700 (PDT)
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW]Epson & Hahnemuhle paper in Australia
> 
> Steve -
> 
> What is a "glop coating"?  I use Premium Luster with
> Ultra Chrome inks and they look terrific, and I don't
> coat the prints with anything.  I keep the whitest
> white below 255, like at 247, and the blacks above 6.
> 
> Peter

Sorry Gary, I missed your post.  I have a few images on the web but not many
- it's something I have meant to address for quite some time.  But I think
most of my photos are crap compared with what many on this list (including
you) achieve!  I'm just learning.  The move to digital printing (and now
digital capture) has reinvigorated my passion for this hobby and I have
learnt an enormous amount over the last two years - mostly from this list.
Here's the link to a my "website" if you can call it that (it was done with
.Mac, is not fancy but I guess it works).  I need to add a bunch more images
and also fix the sharpening on some that are there (they seem so pathetic vs
a print). 

http://homepage.mac.com/stevekale/Photography/Menu38.html

Cheers

Steve

> From: Gary Brown <baffin@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 14:35:57 -0700
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW]Epson & Hahnemuhle paper in Australia
> 
> Steve:
> 
> Do you have a website where we can view some of your work? You have been
> providing quite a bit of information on this forum. It would be helpful to
> see what type of images you prefer. It helps us to understand where you are
> coming from.
> 
> Gary Brown
> www.pbase.com/garyallenbrown

Steve -

These are terrific.  You are way too modest!

Peter

--- Steve Kale <stevekale@...> wrote:

> Sorry Gary, I missed your post.  I have a few images
> on the web but not many
> - it's something I have meant to address for quite
> some time.  But I think
> most of my photos are crap compared with what many
> on this list (including
> you) achieve!  I'm just learning.  The move to
> digital printing (and now
> digital capture) has reinvigorated my passion for
> this hobby and I have
> learnt an enormous amount over the last two years -
> mostly from this list.
> Here's the link to a my "website" if you can call it
> that (it was done with
> .Mac, is not fancy but I guess it works).  I need to
> add a bunch more images
> and also fix the sharpening on some that are there
> (they seem so pathetic vs
> a print). 
> 
>
http://homepage.mac.com/stevekale/Photography/Menu38.html
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Steve
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> > From: Gary Brown <baffin@...>
> > Reply-To:
> <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> > Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2005 14:35:57 -0700
> > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> > Subject: Re: [Digital BW]Epson & Hahnemuhle paper
> in Australia
> > 
> > Steve:
> > 
> > Do you have a website where we can view some of
> your work? You have been
> > providing quite a bit of information on this
> forum. It would be helpful to
> > see what type of images you prefer. It helps us to
> understand where you are
> > coming from.
> > 
> > Gary Brown
> > www.pbase.com/garyallenbrown
> 
> 
> 


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But I think most of my photos are crap compared with what many
> > on this list (including
> > you) achieve! > >
> http://homepage.mac.com/stevekale/Photography/Menu38.html
> > 
> > Cheers
> > 
> > Steve


Steve, I thought they were great; enjoyed looking at your photos, especially your "still life" 
photos.

Thanks for sharing.

Martin

Hi Steve,

The original Ultrachrome inks are obviously '1st generation'. The 
Ultrachrome Hi-gloss inks in the R800 and R1800 would therefore seem to be 
'2nd generation', and the K3 Ultrachromes in the R2400 and upwards would 
seem to be '3rd generation'. ;)

Bob Frost.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Steve Kale" <stevekale@...>


The 1st gen ultrachrome inks suffer badly from bronzing and "gloss
differential" (B&W and colour).  Glop is short for gloss optimizer which
Epson uses on the R800/R1800 printers.  It is not needed with the 2nd gen K3
inks.

Touche.   I guess you are right - Epson skipped a generation on their wide
format and 21/2200 replacements.   ;-)

> From: Bob Frost <bob@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 19:28:07 +0100
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW]Epson & Hahnemuhle paper in Australia
> 
> Hi Steve,
> 
> The original Ultrachrome inks are obviously '1st generation'. The
> Ultrachrome Hi-gloss inks in the R800 and R1800 would therefore seem to be
> '2nd generation', and the K3 Ultrachromes in the R2400 and upwards would
> seem to be '3rd generation'. ;)
> 
> Bob Frost.
>

Peter, Martin - thanks a lot for the comments.  I've a ways to go before I
consider my prints "good" but it's fun learning.

Steve