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inkjet Zone System analogy

inkjet Zone System analogy

2005-06-14 by Djon

Zone System diverged into intuitive/visual and quantitative/geek back in
the day...some people were techie, others more visual...different strokes.

Obviously the same divide occurs with inkjet printing (and scanning
and post processing)...they can be done very well technically by using
one's eyes or by using measurements. I know this is controversial: the
techie side generally dominates discussions, just as there are more
engineers in this world than there are poets (and we do need both).

Are there visually-oriented (not quantitatively oriented) sites,
books, gurus, Forums that occupy themselves with the combination of
FILM, scanning, and inkjet printing?  

I'm stressing *FILM* because so many of us know it intimately, are
well equipped for it, and aren't yet seeing consistently comparable
results from the best digital photographers. 

I'm NOT looking for basic Zone System...not White/Adams/Picker et al:
their concepts do relate but don't apply as intuitively and simply to
Vuescan, Silverfast, Epson or Nikon or Minolta scanner apps.

Links? Books? People? Ideas?

Djon

Re: inkjet Zone System analogy

2005-06-14 by chipcarterdc

I'm glad you raised this.  I find myself often furstrated and confused by the 
tech-dominated nature of most discussions about digital imaging and printing.  
Not that there's anything wrong with a tech approach: I'm sure it's valuable for 
many people and I'm not intending to slam anyone here.  But I totally zone out 
(no pun intended) when I read a discussion of printing techniques that 
involves "You just need a photo-spectro-densito-device-thingy to linearize the 
output so that a printed step wedge reflects values of 1.44 to 2.67...."    As I 
said, I'm sure that's useful to many people, but not to me, so I'd also be 
interested in hearing about more visually-oriented resources.


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Djon" <
westsidemaurice@y...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> Zone System diverged into intuitive/visual and quantitative/geek back in
> the day...some people were techie, others more visual...different strokes.
> 
> Obviously the same divide occurs with inkjet printing (and scanning
> and post processing)...they can be done very well technically by using
> one's eyes or by using measurements. I know this is controversial: the
> techie side generally dominates discussions, just as there are more
> engineers in this world than there are poets (and we do need both).
> 
> Are there visually-oriented (not quantitatively oriented) sites,
> books, gurus, Forums that occupy themselves with the combination of
> FILM, scanning, and inkjet printing?  
> 
> I'm stressing *FILM* because so many of us know it intimately, are
> well equipped for it, and aren't yet seeing consistently comparable
> results from the best digital photographers. 
> 
> I'm NOT looking for basic Zone System...not White/Adams/Picker et al:
> their concepts do relate but don't apply as intuitively and simply to
> Vuescan, Silverfast, Epson or Nikon or Minolta scanner apps.
> 
> Links? Books? People? Ideas?
> 
> Djon

Re: [Digital BW] Re: inkjet Zone System analogy

2005-06-14 by Scott McLoughlin

To tie this back to the MIS and obsolescence thread, the real
threat from Epson's new LLK and B&W printing driver is the
sheer convenience.

Nothing wrong with densitometers and the like, but I believe
that has to become some kind of "advanced mode" of activity
on top of or beyond a still very capable but much more convenient
mode of working with digital B&W printing.

If MIS has a better mousetrap for B&W printing, they need to
start packaging the technology into solutions accessible to
a market larger than the hardcore cogniscenti.

Scott

chipcarterdc wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> I'm glad you raised this. I find myself often furstrated and confused 
> by the
> tech-dominated nature of most discussions about digital imaging and 
> printing.
> Not that there's anything wrong with a tech approach: I'm sure it's 
> valuable for
> many people and I'm not intending to slam anyone here. But I totally 
> zone out
> (no pun intended) when I read a discussion of printing techniques that
> involves "You just need a photo-spectro-densito-device-thingy to 
> linearize the
> output so that a printed step wedge reflects values of 1.44 to 
> 2.67...." As I
> said, I'm sure that's useful to many people, but not to me, so I'd 
> also be
> interested in hearing about more visually-oriented resources.
>
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Djon" <
> westsidemaurice@y...> wrote:
> > Zone System diverged into intuitive/visual and quantitative/geek back in
> > the day...some people were techie, others more visual...different 
> strokes.
> >
> > Obviously the same divide occurs with inkjet printing (and scanning
> > and post processing)...they can be done very well technically by using
> > one's eyes or by using measurements. I know this is controversial: the
> > techie side generally dominates discussions, just as there are more
> > engineers in this world than there are poets (and we do need both).
> >
> > Are there visually-oriented (not quantitatively oriented) sites,
> > books, gurus, Forums that occupy themselves with the combination of
> > FILM, scanning, and inkjet printing?
> >
> > I'm stressing *FILM* because so many of us know it intimately, are
> > well equipped for it, and aren't yet seeing consistently comparable
> > results from the best digital photographers.
> >
> > I'm NOT looking for basic Zone System...not White/Adams/Picker et al:
> > their concepts do relate but don't apply as intuitively and simply to
> > Vuescan, Silverfast, Epson or Nikon or Minolta scanner apps.
> >
> > Links? Books? People? Ideas?
> >
> > Djon
>
>
>
>
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[Digital BW] Re: inkjet Zone System analogy

2005-06-14 by Djon

Let's NOT tie this to MIS...I posted hoping there was interest in B&W
photographic technique as it applies to inkjet printing. MIS is just a
product and it appears certain to become further marginalized by
advancing technology. Modern times, cookie crumbling etc. 

Djon

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Scott McLoughlin
<scott@a...> wrote:
> To tie this back to the MIS and obsolescence thread, the real
> threat from Epson's new LLK and B&W printing driver is the
> sheer convenience.

There's no "threat" in that. 

> 
> Nothing wrong with densitometers and the like, but I believe
> that has to become some kind of "advanced mode" of activity
> on top of or beyond a still very capable but much more convenient
> mode of working with digital B&W printing.

It's not an "advanced mode," it's just a particular type of thinking
that's evidently not correlated closely with dreaming, images.

Only a certain minority have ever bought into densitometry...that came
along as Ansel was fading. It's a niche.

The major museums rarely show Ansel's students: they show the people
who put most of their energy into the photograph itself.

IMO, of course.  Djon

Re: [Digital BW] Re: inkjet Zone System analogy

2005-06-14 by Steve Kale

Djon

I think you will find a little "tech" or "math" will be unavoidable as you
go through this exercise.  The Zone system was about exposure, an inherently
technical subject but one that you likely learnt over a longer period of
time.  All that light, f-stop, film speed, shutter speed stuff.  Same with
all those paper grades and understanding their charts.  One very comforting
factor is that digital is at its core exactly the same as traditional.  One
can relate density measure to f-stops etc quite easily.  I found the stuff
on Norman Koren's site extremely valuable.  Much of it went completely over
my head on the first read (second and third) and my eyes quickly glazed over
but the trick is to read a little bit, go away and think about that little
bit for a while, read that little bit again if necessary and slowly bring
yourself up the curve.  If you read nothing else, focus on the two tutorials
entitled "Monitor calibration and gamma" and "Tonal quality and dynamic
range in digital cameras".  It's tough going but you will have an advantage
if you already have a traditional darkroom background.  Just take it slow
and be persistent.

Steve

Re: [Digital BW] Re: inkjet Zone System analogy

2005-06-16 by Bob Frost

Scott,

Hang on; why use the word 'threat'? Shouldn't it be 'benefit'?

Bob Frost.

----- Original Message ----- 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: "Scott McLoughlin" <scott@...>


> To tie this back to the MIS and obsolescence thread, the real
> threat from Epson's new LLK and B&W printing driver is the
> sheer convenience.

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