Digital BW, The Print

I just started using the Epson 2400 for B&W prints.  Wow!

Has anyone noticed that there is a bit of cyan even with the Advance B&W 
setting, using Matte Black etc?

Anyone understand the differences in the media types and what will give the 
best results with rich blacks?

I am using Legion Photo White Matte 10mil and getting really good results. 
Any suggestions for other Matte media and a source?

BTW: The Cannon 20D B&W settings with the Epson 2400 are really a great 
combination.  I have been a Nikon fan for over 35 years and the B&W 
dedicated mode with Y, O, R "filters" are very interesting.

Hello zumbergephoto,

>I just started using the Epson 2400 for B&W prints.  Wow!
>Has anyone noticed that there is a bit of cyan even with the 
>Advance B&W setting, using Matte Black etc?

This is because ABW uses color inks to tone the blacks.  If you look
with an 8x loupe you can see Cyan and Magenta dots (I can see them in
a sample someone sent me).  There is often a hint of some color or
another whenever color inks are mixed in as toners, either with mixed
inks or as dots on the prints.  

Since you are using Matte Black, have you tried a Black Only print?  I
have a 2400 BO print done with Photo Black that someone sent me and
I'm very impressed with the smoothness resulting from the tiny dot
size.  An MK version should have better dmax and be not quite so warm,
and will not have the color cast.  I'd be very interested to know what
you think of it if you try it.  I currently make BO prints on my 2200
and am considering trading up to a 2400 for the smoother look.


>Anyone understand the differences in the media types and what will 
>give the  best results with rich blacks?

My favorite blacks come from BO prints using Eboni ink - very rich,
and no color casts.  It's a bit cooler than MK to begin with, and is
rendered in various tone on different papers.  I prefer to not have
color inks mixed in (for several reasons, including the color casts)
and so I use several different papers to obtain the tones I want for
specific images.  Eboni is a very rich black and I get everything from
a cold tone on papers like Condor BW and Kayenta, to medium warm on PR
or Dourian, up to very warm on papers like Innova Smooth Cotton.  I'm
assuming (hoping) that MIS will find a way to make Eboni available for
the 2400.

If you try a BO print please report back about it.  I would also be
willing to pay the expenses for sending me a sample.  If this is
possible please reply via private email.  Thanks very much.

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

> From: Clayton Jones <cj@...>

> 
> Hello zumbergephoto,
> 
>> I just started using the Epson 2400 for B&W prints.  Wow!
>> Has anyone noticed that there is a bit of cyan even with the
>> Advance B&W setting, using Matte Black etc?
> 
> This is because ABW uses color inks to tone the blacks.  If you look
> with an 8x loupe you can see Cyan and Magenta dots (I can see them in
> a sample someone sent me).

That must be one hell of a lupe.  I can barely if at all see any dots on an
ISP 2880dpi Adv B&W neutral greyscale with my 6x6 Schneider.  At 6x there's
no way to see if there are colour dots - certainly none are obvious.  At
worst I would not expect to see any C or M, only perhaps LC and LM.  But the
light greys are quite neutral and so for a neutral profile I doubt there is
much of any cooling in the mid-tones to highlights.


> There is often a hint of some color or
> another whenever color inks are mixed in as toners, either with mixed
> inks or as dots on the prints.
> 
> Since you are using Matte Black, have you tried a Black Only print?  I
> have a 2400 BO print done with Photo Black that someone sent me and
> I'm very impressed with the smoothness resulting from the tiny dot
> size.  An MK version should have better dmax and be not quite so warm,
> and will not have the color cast.

The dMax is not even close to a PK/photo paper print.  The Adv B&W toning is
adjusted for the ink/media type and so both neutral settings are very
neutral.  Did someone send you a PK print to matte paper?  If so I would
simply toss it as it will be completely screwed up.

With Black Only on ISP the dots are much more visible.  Dmax is 2.58 (more
than 8 f-stops of dynamic range) out of the printer but I would expect this
to fall a little to 2.45-ish.  The hue is definitely warm as you would
expect.

Clayton,

It's interesting that the dots in the R2400 are twice the size of those in 
the R1800 (3pl v. 1.5pl).

Bob Frost.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Clayton Jones" <cj@...>

Since you are using Matte Black, have you tried a Black Only print?  I
have a 2400 BO print done with Photo Black that someone sent me and
I'm very impressed with the smoothness resulting from the tiny dot
size.

Steve Kale,

>>with an 8x loupe you can see Cyan and Magenta dots 

>That must be one <beep> of a lupe. 

It's an 8x Peak loupe.  I've had it for a little over 20 years and it
has served well, and yes, it is pretty good.


>At 6x there's no way to see if there are colour dots 

That may be, but has nothing to do with what I said.  As I stated
before, I can see color dots with my 8x loupe.


>I would not expect to see any C or M, only perhaps LC and LM.  

That's irrelevent to this thread.  The colored dots I see are cyan-ish
and magenta-ish.  It doesn't matter if they are C/M or LC/LM.  The
reason for saying it was simply to point out that there are color inks
in the ABW print.


>>An MK version should have better dmax and be not quite so warm,
>>and will not have the color cast.

>The dMax is not even close to a PK/photo paper print.  

I didn't say it was.



>Did someone send you a PK print to matte paper?  

Yes.


>If so I would simply toss it as it will be completely screwed up.

That's not surprising.  

The print actually looks quite nice.  It's warmer than MK would be and
lacks the dmax MK would have, but otherwise is very pleasing to look
at.  It's an Antelope Canyon shot and the subtle gradations are well
rendered.  It was done by someone who takes great care in his work and
was graciously sent to me, along with several others, at some trouble
and expense.  I would not think of tossing it aside.  I'm happy to
have it in my collection.


Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Hello Bob,

>It's interesting that the dots in the R2400 are twice the size 
>of those in the R1800 (3pl v. 1.5pl).

Yes, it's too bad the 1800 didn't have a BO mode.  I'd like to see
what it could do.

>>Since you are using Matte Black, have you tried a Black Only print?
>>I have a 2400 BO print done with Photo Black that someone sent me 
>>and I'm very impressed with the smoothness resulting from the tiny 
>>dot size.

BTW, that should have been a "4800" BO print, I must have had 2400 on
my mind.  I'm real curious to see what the 2400 can do with BO.  If
it's as smooth as this 4800 print then I'll be a happy camper [g].

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

The prints of my 2400 are dead neutral.

BO? Do you mean "Grayscale"? I thought BO was not possible, that "Grayscale" only converts a color image to grayscale, and not very well at that, but correct me if I am wrong.

Ukko Heikkinen

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hello Ukko,

>The prints of my 2400 are dead neutral.
> 
> BO? Do you mean "Grayscale"? I thought BO was not possible, that
"Grayscale" only converts a color image to grayscale, and not very
well at that, but correct me if I am wrong.

BO means Black Only, a technique for BW printing using only the K
position ink.  I think the Grayscale you are referring to describes
one of the methods in Photoshop for changing an image from color to
BW.  The two are not really related.  How do you like your 2400?

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

> Yes, it's too bad the 1800 didn't have a BO mode.  I'd like to see
> what it could do.
> 
Clayton,

Using QTR with a R800 there are three options:  cool, sepia and matte 
black.  Is the latter BO?  At 2800 I cannot see much difference in the 
dot structure among the three options with an 8x loupe.

Steve

Steve;

Unless you've made your own QTR curve, none of the supplied curves give 
you BO (try a good workout).  If you right click the curves you're 
using in the drop down box and then click on 'show curve graph' you'll 
see which inks are in use. Most of the curves are primarily 2K and 
toners to neutralize, warm, or cool them.

Steve Karafyllakis

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Stephen Kobrin" 
<kobrins@w...> wrote:
> > Yes, it's too bad the 1800 didn't have a BO mode.  I'd like to see
> > what it could do.
> > 
> Clayton,
> 
> Using QTR with a R800 there are three options:  cool, sepia and matte 
> black.  Is the latter BO?  At 2800 I cannot see much difference in 
the 

> dot structure among the three options with an 8x loupe.
> 
> Steve

Midsummer Greetings from Finland to everybody

I like my 2400 very much - it is just what the doctor ordered - and I have printed lots of BO prints on my 2100, varnishing them to beautiful shine, but my 2400 does not have that mode, only "Grayscale".

I printed a B&W image using "Neutral" and "Grayscale" and did not see any difference. My conclusion was that the "Grayscale" option converts a color image to grayscale and prints it using the "Neutral" option.

Has somebody else found BO mode in his/her 2400, and if so, where?

Ukko Heikkinen

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Clayton Jones" <cj@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, June 25, 2005 3:35 PM
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Espon R2400 - very impressed


Hello Ukko,
BO means Black Only, a technique for BW printing using only the K
position ink.  I think the Grayscale you are referring to describes
one of the methods in Photoshop for changing an image from color to
BW.  The two are not really related.  How do you like your 2400?


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Recently on one of the groups I belong too ask about making adjustments 
with a LCD montor hook up to DVI, I missed the answer cause I too at the 
time could not understand why I had no adjustments using the OSD.  
Looking around the web site of the mfg. I found the answer to the 
question, it had related to buying like a Eye One or any other profiling 
software-hardware device.  Using windows use the advance mode and in 
there you will see with your graphics card color settings where you can 
make profiles for the LCD monitor.  If it was'nt this group , I am sorry 
if this is common knowdgle.  I did a search.     Anthony

I also have a 2400, and as far as I know, there is no B/O mode.

Gary

www.pbase.com/garyallenbrown

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Ukko Heikkinen" <ukko.heikkinen@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, June 25, 2005 7:15 AM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Espon R2400 - very impressed


Midsummer Greetings from Finland to everybody

I like my 2400 very much - it is just what the doctor ordered - and I have 
printed lots of BO prints on my 2100, varnishing them to beautiful shine, 
but my 2400 does not have that mode, only "Grayscale".

I printed a B&W image using "Neutral" and "Grayscale" and did not see any 
difference. My conclusion was that the "Grayscale" option converts a color 
image to grayscale and prints it using the "Neutral" option.

Has somebody else found BO mode in his/her 2400, and if so, where?

Ukko Heikkinen


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Clayton Jones" <cj@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, June 25, 2005 3:35 PM
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Espon R2400 - very impressed


Hello Ukko,
BO means Black Only, a technique for BW printing using only the K
position ink.  I think the Grayscale you are referring to describes
one of the methods in Photoshop for changing an image from color to
BW.  The two are not really related.  How do you like your 2400?


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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Interesting.  There is BO on the 4800 but I see little point in using it.
The smoother greyscale that people are seeing in the 4800 and 2400 is
precisely because it is using the light black and light light blacks.

> From: Gary Brown <baffin@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2005 10:19:09 -0700
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Espon R2400 - very impressed
> 
> I also have a 2400, and as far as I know, there is no B/O mode.
> 
> Gary
> 
> www.pbase.com/garyallenbrown

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Anthony S. 
Tubbs" <astubbs@o...> wrote:
> Recently on one of the groups I belong too ask about making 
adjustments 
> with a LCD montor hook up to DVI, I missed the answer cause I too 
at the 
> time could not understand why I had no adjustments using the OSD.  
> Looking around the web site of the mfg. I found the answer to the 
> question, it had related to buying like a Eye One or any other 
profiling 
> software-hardware device.  Using windows use the advance mode and 
in 
> there you will see with your graphics card color settings where you 
can 
> make profiles for the LCD monitor.  If it was'nt this group , I am 
sorry 
> if this is common knowdgle.  I did a search.     Anthony

You could also use the "native whitepoint" option in the profiling 
appliction software. May not give you the color temperatire you need, 
but at least you will be able to make a profile for the monitor.

Anthony,

With a CRT, you have the ability to adjust contrast, brightness, color 
temp, etc, using analog controls on the front of the monitor.  These 
are true analog adjustments and it makes sense to do these adjustments 
there, so the profiling software can write smaller adjustments to your 
video lookup table (VLUT).  This gives the best profile for a CRT.

On an LCD, there is really only one analog adjustment...the brightness 
of the backlight.  Even though the controls on the front panel of the 
LCD allow you to adjust contrast, color, etc, these are being passed 
directly to your video card anyway, so you are really making 
adjustments to the VLUT when you adjust these settings on your LCD.  
Most profiling software packages know this and disable all controls on 
the monitor except the the brightness control.  Since all these 
adjustments will be sent to the VLUT anyway, it makes no difference.  

I use Gretag Profilemaker 5, and I just set the desired color temp, 
gamma and luminance in the software before profiling.  Then I adjust 
the brightness on the monitor and skip the rest.  The profiling 
software makes adjustments to the VLUT to give the desired settings.  

Lou

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Anthony S. Tubbs" 
<astubbs@o...> wrote:
> Recently on one of the groups I belong too ask about making 
adjustments 
> with a LCD montor hook up to DVI, I missed the answer cause I too at 
the 
> time could not understand why I had no adjustments using the OSD.  
> Looking around the web site of the mfg. I found the answer to the 
> question, it had related to buying like a Eye One or any other 
profiling 
> software-hardware device.  Using windows use the advance mode and in 
> there you will see with your graphics card color settings where you 
can 
> make profiles for the LCD monitor.  If it was'nt this group , I am 
sorry 
> if this is common knowdgle.  I did a search.     Anthony

Hello forum members--

I've "lurked" for a while, but am only now posting, and wanted to 
introduce myself.  I have been a B&W photographer for 40 years, 35 
and 2 1/4.  I have only within the past three years become involved 
with digital printing.  So, while I consider my eye fairly well 
developed, I am not, by any means, an expert in digital printing.

I started with a 2000P, which I found novel but unusable for serious 
printing of anything.  The BO mode (with Epson inks and Watercolor RW 
paper) were acceptable, but lacked real blacks and any acceptable 
shadow detail.  Color from this printer always looked bizarre to me.

I received a 2400 about a week ago and have run through about $600 in 
ink and paper to try to understand the printer.  The short version of 
the story is that I am very impressed with it.  Although prints do 
not look like silver prints, I find them a very credible 
representation of B&W photography.  The "neutral" setting in the ABW 
driver is very close to a gray card and, under a Nikon stereo, zoom 
microscope cyan, magenta and yellow are just visible at about 6X or 
7X, obvious at any higher zoom.  By eye I see no color whatsoever in 
the print in any type of light at any angle of view.  Judging by ink 
use, the driver is using (in descending order) light black, matte 
black, light magenta, light cyan, light light black and yellow.  The 
yellow use is very slight (and magenta and cyan appear to be used 
only during "nozzle cleaning").  I realize that the introduction of 
color may imply some "longevity" (archival, fading or "shift") 
problems, but aside from that I cannot see an objection to it.  Other 
thoughts on this?  I am surprised by the light magenta use, because I 
would have expected light cyan after matte black given the color of 
carbon. All printing has been done at "neutral" settings in the ABW 
driver.

Most intersting to me has been the "paper issue" with the printer.  I 
will continue that discussion in a following post.

> ...
> I started with a 2000P, which I found novel but unusable for serious
> printing of anything...

With dedicated B&W inks it can make excellent B&W prints.  Among other
things, it has one of the best matte paper dmaxs.  Since there are a lot of
these sitting around gathering dust David Brooks (Shutterbug) asked me to
tune a simple monotone inkset for one, which I did.  He seems quite pleased
with it.  My "Readme" file on it is at
http://home1.gte.net/res09aij/2000P-FS-Readme.htm.  Buying a used 2000P is a
good way for a person who wants 13" B&W to get going on a budget. 


>... 
>I've settled on the EEM and Velvet (the first for proofing and the 
>second for printing)...
>Hahnemuhle PR ... seemed ordinary to me ...
> and I also had ... occassional, small white specks which were 
>not printed.  I had this problem with no other papers I tried.

What some call "flaking" of the surface is quite common -- and a problem.
As others have noted, it can be reduced by brushing (might leave markets) or
blowing with compressed air before printing.  Sometimes this isn't enough. 

In general, the sensitivity of inkjet surfaces is a significant issue and
problem.  I think Epson UltraSmooth (PremierArt Fine Art Hot Press appears
to be the same coating) may be the best in this department and also in the
fading area.  It also has the brightest non-OBA surface (and optical
brighteners will "burn out" and make the paper appear to be yellowing).
With older printers the dmax was slightly weak but acceptable.  With the
4800 sample I've seen on PremierArt Hot Press 205 ("PA 205') -- which is a
real bargain paper -- the dmax was very good.  So, you might consider trying
this paper.  www.ITSupplies.com has the best prices I've seen for it.  See
<http://www.itsupplies.com/cgi-bin/itsupplies.storefront/42beea4202f8fae6274
0400180140675/Catalog/1518>

Sadly, PermaJet (same as Innova?) coating does not seem to do well with the
new Epson printers.  For pre-2400 models, this line is near the top of my
paper list.

>...
> My first prints on the 2400 did not match the monitor...

That is typical with B&W printing.  Some of us use the Photoshop soft
proofing procedure Photoshop provides.  I have the procedure written up at
http://home1.gte.net/res09aij/Monitor-Profiling.htm.

Frankly, I'm surprised Epson set up a separate B&W procedure.  At some point
the B&W and color workflows have to be integrated.  The amount of color
pigments fed into the image should be seamless from pure carbon to high
gamut color.  As such, I see the latest Epsons as a timid first step, but
still, by integrating what the third party rips have been doing into the
driver and adding a lighter gray, they've opened the market up to those who
won't try third party solutions -- which, of course, is where the
innovations have come from.

Good luck with your B&W printing and welcome to the forum.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Paul-  Thanks for the paper suggestions.  I will look at them.  On 
the soft proof issue, which I have used for other workflow and like, 
I don't believe there's any way to use it with the Epson ABW driver.  
So that is why I "tuned" the driver for paper type.  Is an ICC 
printer profile or RIP really doing anything different from that?  Or 
are we back to the linearization issue?  While I realize that I have 
not linearized anything, over a number of images I find the 
correspondence between screen and print quite good--paper color and a 
reflective surface aside.  The highlights, shadows and grayscales 
seem about right on the screen (compared to the print) and give me a 
very good predictor of the print.  Of course, in 40 years I've never 
once printed a photograph and had that first print usable.  So I have 
that experience with the digital flow too.  Perhaps I'm just missing 
something, because my "flow" seems simplistic (probably downright 
useless) to most on the forum.

I tried your links, but they didn't seem to work.

Many thanks,
Walt

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" 
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> > ...
> > I started with a 2000P, which I found novel but unusable for 
serious
> > printing of anything...
> 
> With dedicated B&W inks it can make excellent B&W prints.  Among 
other
> things, it has one of the best matte paper dmaxs.  Since there are 
a lot of
> these sitting around gathering dust David Brooks (Shutterbug) asked 
me to
> tune a simple monotone inkset for one, which I did.  He seems quite 
pleased
> with it.  My "Readme" file on it is at
> http://home1.gte.net/res09aij/2000P-FS-Readme.htm.  Buying a used 
2000P is a
> good way for a person who wants 13" B&W to get going on a budget. 
> 
> 
> >... 
> >I've settled on the EEM and Velvet (the first for proofing and the 
> >second for printing)...
> >Hahnemuhle PR ... seemed ordinary to me ...
> > and I also had ... occassional, small white specks which were 
> >not printed.  I had this problem with no other papers I tried.
> 
> What some call "flaking" of the surface is quite common -- and a 
problem.
> As others have noted, it can be reduced by brushing (might leave 
markets) or
> blowing with compressed air before printing.  Sometimes this isn't 
enough. 
> 
> In general, the sensitivity of inkjet surfaces is a significant 
issue and
> problem.  I think Epson UltraSmooth (PremierArt Fine Art Hot Press 
appears
> to be the same coating) may be the best in this department and also 
in the
> fading area.  It also has the brightest non-OBA surface (and optical
> brighteners will "burn out" and make the paper appear to be 
yellowing).
> With older printers the dmax was slightly weak but acceptable.  
With the
> 4800 sample I've seen on PremierArt Hot Press 205 ("PA 205') -- 
which is a
> real bargain paper -- the dmax was very good.  So, you might 
consider trying
> this paper.  www.ITSupplies.com has the best prices I've seen for 
it.  See
> <http://www.itsupplies.com/cgi-
bin/itsupplies.storefront/42beea4202f8fae6274
> 0400180140675/Catalog/1518>
> 
> Sadly, PermaJet (same as Innova?) coating does not seem to do well 
with the
> new Epson printers.  For pre-2400 models, this line is near the top 
of my
> paper list.
> 
> >...
> > My first prints on the 2400 did not match the monitor...
> 
> That is typical with B&W printing.  Some of us use the Photoshop 
soft
> proofing procedure Photoshop provides.  I have the procedure 
written up at
> http://home1.gte.net/res09aij/Monitor-Profiling.htm.
> 
> Frankly, I'm surprised Epson set up a separate B&W procedure.  At 
some point
> the B&W and color workflows have to be integrated.  The amount of 
color
> pigments fed into the image should be seamless from pure carbon to 
high
> gamut color.  As such, I see the latest Epsons as a timid first 
step, but
> still, by integrating what the third party rips have been doing 
into the
> driver and adding a lighter gray, they've opened the market up to 
those who

> won't try third party solutions -- which, of course, is where the
> innovations have come from.
> 
> Good luck with your B&W printing and welcome to the forum.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com