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Re: Imageprint RIP/2200/2400/4800

Re: Imageprint RIP/2200/2400/4800

2005-07-04 by yohnnyboy

>My only question is: are B&W prints from the 2400 better than a 2200 
>w/Bowhaus RIP (or 
>Image Print).  I only print in B&W as a hobbist.
>
>Martin

Martin

BW prints made on the Epson 2200, 2400, and 4800 using Rips or Epsons 
advanced Black and White solution all function in essentially the 
same way. The printer uses 2 to 3 different black inks with various 
dilutions. If you take a look at a step wedge (from 0% to 100% black)
created with these inks you will see an extremely warm profile that 
changes color throughout the density scale. Color inks are layed down 
to cool off the basic "warm-black" inks to give neutral B&W tones. 
That's the idea but it isn't so simple to implement. RIPS allow the 
user to fine tune the ink amounts and curves to adjust the tones for 
individual tastes.

I tried both QTR and the more expensive IJC-OPM RIP from BOWHAUS. 
Using their canned profiles, EPSON UC inks on "glossy RC type papers" 
I was astonished to see how bad the results were. After spending 
serious money on IJC-OPM I just couldn't believe the horrible bluish-
cyan tones in the prints. The nice thing about the RIPS, however, is 
that you can tweek the profiles and ink limits to fine tune the 
output for your printer and your own personal tastes. After learning 
to do that I was able to create my own profiles that worked 
with "some images." The only profiles that I found acceptable 
produced prints that were always somewhat warm toned. In my hands 
with a 2200, I was never able to get an acceptable "neutral print" 
using Ultrachrome inks that I could use to replace silver prints. I 
can say the same for my tests of Imageprint. 

The new K3 inks used in the 2200/4800 are not as warm toned as the 
older Ultrachrome inks. They are intrinsically easier to "cool off" 
to neutral. In addition, their bronzing and gloss differential 
characteristics are vastly improved over the ultrachrome inks. To my 
eye, the test prints of my own images made from an Epson 4800 in the 
advanced black and white mode are superior to that of a 4000 even 
when the 4000 is driven by Imageprint. The new K3 inks used in the 
4800 and the better dither patterns of this advanced printer lead to 
a smoother, more appealing B&W image with more neutral tones. I can't 
explain this scientifically but my own emotional response to prints 
with ultrachrome inks is "OK I can use this as a test print but I 
don't dare even give it away" With a 4800, my response is "its not 
absolutely perfect but I feel comfortable selling this print with my 
name on it." The gloss characteristics of the new K3 inks are really 
spectacular when compared to UC inks. When you look at a print with 
some rich dark tones you still see a smooth homogeneous gloss. This 
homogeneity is important to a viewers emotional response to the 
image. With ultrachrome inks the darkest tones lose gloss. This 
combined with the awfull bronzing give ultrachrome prints a less than 
satisfactory appeal on RC papers. K3 inks only begin to have gloss 
problems in the extreme highlights where the uninked paper surface 
begins to come through. 

To sum up: for my tastes a 2400/4800 print already beats a 
2200//Imageprint//QTR//IJC/OPM print. There is no contest to me. I am 
not knocking the RIPS. They are great software. I am just saying that 
the new K3 Epson printers are technologically superior and the older 
printers cannot offset this difference by using a RIP. When the RIPS 
support the 2400/4800 printers the gap will only widen. Remember that 
everthing I have said here is subjective and is only my opinion 
resulting from my own emotional responses. If you can you should test 
for yourself. QTR can be evaluated at no charge. The same used to be 
true for Imageprint on a MAC platform. I have not had good luck with 
MIS inks. But many on this site have had great success. You might see 
if those inks appeal to your tastes.

There is photographer on this list that I greatly respect named Joel 
Pickford. Quite a while back Joel talked about his 6 month testing of 
ultrachrome inks and RIPS. He stated that it was impossible to make 
what he considered to be "fine prints" with ultrachrome inks even 
with a RIP and he tried them all. At the time I laughed because I 
didn't believe him. Now after 4 months of my own testing I find that 
my tastes are similar to Joel's.  Joel also incited EPSON to step up 
to the plate and make a new printer for B&W printing using 3 black 
inks. Well Joel, Epson has done so. I would love to hear what you 
think of their product.

Re: Imageprint RIP/2200/2400/4800

2005-07-04 by dfaprinting

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "yohnnyboy" 
<chhopk@l...> wrote:
> 
> The new K3 inks used in the 2200/4800 are not as warm toned as the 
> older Ultrachrome inks. 

Just wanted to make a note that the matte black ink in the new 
printers is exactly the same ink as in the old printers. For the 4800 
it even has the same part number, the 78/9800 printers will have a 
different part number since the cartridge will be different.

Re: Imageprint RIP/2200/2400/4800

2005-07-04 by mxgo95747

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "dfaprinting" <dfaprinting@y...> 
wrote:
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "yohnnyboy" 
> <chhopk@l...> wrote:
> > 
> > The new K3 inks used in the 2200/4800 are not as warm toned as the 
> > older Ultrachrome inks. 
> 
> Just wanted to make a note that the matte black ink in the new 
> printers is exactly the same ink as in the old printers. For the 4800 
> it even has the same part number, the 78/9800 printers will have a 
> different part number since the cartridge will be different.


Take a look at this article, Black & White Chronicles by M. Hobert, in which he did 
spectrophotometric readings on a 9600 w/ImagePrint vs a 9800 with Adv Blk.  His analysis 
may have answered my question if the same holds true for the 2400 vs the 200 w/adv blk.

Yohnny, thanks for your detailed analysis, it did make me think.  I was looking at the 
refillable carts w/MIS inks for the 2200 w/bowhaus RIP being cheaper to use.  However, 
some clever individuals will come along with refillable carts for the 2400 and MIS will (or 
others) will have comparable K3 inks.  

Thanks,

Martin

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Imageprint RIP/2200/2400/4800

2005-07-04 by Elwood Spedden

Martin

Do you have a link for the Black & White Chronicles?
Woody

--- mxgo95747 <mxgo95747@...> wrote:


---------------------------------
--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com,
"dfaprinting" <dfaprinting@y...> 
wrote:
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com,
"yohnnyboy" 
> <chhopk@l...> wrote:
> > 
> > The new K3 inks used in the 2200/4800 are not as
warm toned as the 
> > older Ultrachrome inks. 
> 
> Just wanted to make a note that the matte black ink
in the new 
> printers is exactly the same ink as in the old
printers. For the 4800 
> it even has the same part number, the 78/9800
printers will have a 
> different part number since the cartridge will be
different.


Take a look at this article, Black & White Chronicles
by M. Hobert, in which he did 
spectrophotometric readings on a 9600 w/ImagePrint vs
a 9800 with Adv Blk.  His analysis 
may have answered my question if the same holds true
for the 2400 vs the 200 w/adv blk.

Yohnny, thanks for your detailed analysis, it did make
me think.  I was looking at the 
refillable carts w/MIS inks for the 2200 w/bowhaus RIP
being cheaper to use.  However, 
some clever individuals will come along with
refillable carts for the 2400 and MIS will (or 
others) will have comparable K3 inks.  

Thanks,

Martin 




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[Digital BW] Re: Imageprint RIP/2200/2400/4800

2005-07-04 by edrudolpho

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Elwood Spedden <elwood@w...> 
wrote:
> Martin
> 
> Do you have a link for the Black & White Chronicles?
> Woody

Here you go, Woody

http://photoshopnews.com/2005/07/02/black-white-chronicles/

Ed

[Digital BW] Re: Imageprint RIP/2200/2400/4800

2005-07-04 by mxgo95747

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Elwood Spedden <elwood@w...> 
wrote:
> Martin
> 
> Do you have a link for the Black & White Chronicles?
> Woody


Sorry, I forgot to include the link.  Here it is: http://photoshopnews.com/2005/07/02/
black-white-chronicles/

Martin

[Digital BW] Re: Imageprint RIP/2200/2400/4800

2005-07-04 by Tyler Boley

A very worthwhile article. I have met Mac Holbert, these people are
obviously committed to fine printing.
An interesting aspect of the article, as Bruce Watson's reply
indicates, is that other alternative solutions to the problem are
never mentioned. It's very obvious that there is a good working
relationship between Nash and Epson. I doubt 9800s have been shipped
to many people for evaluation that don't have such a relationship.
Therefore only solutions provided by, and none frowned upon, by Epson
are discussed.
For example, a quick check with a few old members on this list and he
wouldn't have wasted his time testing a 2000 or 9500. Though Mac may
have experimented with all kinds of approaches, when it comes to
writing articles or making recommendations, I doubt his organization
will jeopardize a relationship with Epson that is so rewarding to them.
There are very few printers in this country of Mac's stature, and I
don't intend to suggest I'm in a position to question his word.
But I want to stress again- there are options, some extremely
successful, some that even helped lead the way to slow improvement in
these out-of-the-box improvements.
Tyler


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "edrudolpho"
<erudolph@p...> wrote:
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Elwood Spedden
<elwood@w...> 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> wrote:
> > Martin
> > 
> > Do you have a link for the Black & White Chronicles?
> > Woody
> 
> Here you go, Woody
> 
> http://photoshopnews.com/2005/07/02/black-white-chronicles/
> 
> Ed

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Imageprint RIP/2200/2400/4800

2005-07-04 by Elwood Spedden

thanks
woody

--- edrudolpho <erudolph@...> wrote:


---------------------------------
--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com,
Elwood Spedden <elwood@w...> 
wrote:
> Martin
> 
> Do you have a link for the Black & White Chronicles?
> Woody

Here you go, Woody

http://photoshopnews.com/2005/07/02/black-white-chronicles/

Ed




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BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE
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INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO
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YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR
CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE
PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING
TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.


  

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Re: Imageprint RIP/2200/2400/4800

2005-07-05 by Peter Tan

Hi All,

In contrast, M.Reichmann has had the opposite opnion on the 4800. He
'prefers' the BW prints with his 4000 and Imageprint RIP versus the
4800 ABW option. Which am I to believe?

Am currently in the market to purchase a 4000 or a 4800 but with the
ink dump statistics of the 4800, I'm keen to lean on the 4000. Plus
Epson having firesale prices for the 4000. Any advice?

Thanks
Peter

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "yohnnyboy"
<chhopk@l...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> >My only question is: are B&W prints from the 2400 better than a 2200 
> >w/Bowhaus RIP (or 
> >Image Print).  I only print in B&W as a hobbist.
> >
> >Martin
> 
> Martin
> 
> BW prints made on the Epson 2200, 2400, and 4800 using Rips or Epsons 
> advanced Black and White solution all function in essentially the 
> same way. The printer uses 2 to 3 different black inks with various 
> dilutions. If you take a look at a step wedge (from 0% to 100% black)
> created with these inks you will see an extremely warm profile that 
> changes color throughout the density scale. Color inks are layed down 
> to cool off the basic "warm-black" inks to give neutral B&W tones. 
> That's the idea but it isn't so simple to implement. RIPS allow the 
> user to fine tune the ink amounts and curves to adjust the tones for 
> individual tastes.
> 
> I tried both QTR and the more expensive IJC-OPM RIP from BOWHAUS. 
> Using their canned profiles, EPSON UC inks on "glossy RC type papers" 
> I was astonished to see how bad the results were. After spending 
> serious money on IJC-OPM I just couldn't believe the horrible bluish-
> cyan tones in the prints. The nice thing about the RIPS, however, is 
> that you can tweek the profiles and ink limits to fine tune the 
> output for your printer and your own personal tastes. After learning 
> to do that I was able to create my own profiles that worked 
> with "some images." The only profiles that I found acceptable 
> produced prints that were always somewhat warm toned. In my hands 
> with a 2200, I was never able to get an acceptable "neutral print" 
> using Ultrachrome inks that I could use to replace silver prints. I 
> can say the same for my tests of Imageprint. 
> 
> The new K3 inks used in the 2200/4800 are not as warm toned as the 
> older Ultrachrome inks. They are intrinsically easier to "cool off" 
> to neutral. In addition, their bronzing and gloss differential 
> characteristics are vastly improved over the ultrachrome inks. To my 
> eye, the test prints of my own images made from an Epson 4800 in the 
> advanced black and white mode are superior to that of a 4000 even 
> when the 4000 is driven by Imageprint. The new K3 inks used in the 
> 4800 and the better dither patterns of this advanced printer lead to 
> a smoother, more appealing B&W image with more neutral tones. I can't 
> explain this scientifically but my own emotional response to prints 
> with ultrachrome inks is "OK I can use this as a test print but I 
> don't dare even give it away" With a 4800, my response is "its not 
> absolutely perfect but I feel comfortable selling this print with my 
> name on it." The gloss characteristics of the new K3 inks are really 
> spectacular when compared to UC inks. When you look at a print with 
> some rich dark tones you still see a smooth homogeneous gloss. This 
> homogeneity is important to a viewers emotional response to the 
> image. With ultrachrome inks the darkest tones lose gloss. This 
> combined with the awfull bronzing give ultrachrome prints a less than 
> satisfactory appeal on RC papers. K3 inks only begin to have gloss 
> problems in the extreme highlights where the uninked paper surface 
> begins to come through. 
> 
> To sum up: for my tastes a 2400/4800 print already beats a 
> 2200//Imageprint//QTR//IJC/OPM print. There is no contest to me. I am 
> not knocking the RIPS. They are great software. I am just saying that 
> the new K3 Epson printers are technologically superior and the older 
> printers cannot offset this difference by using a RIP. When the RIPS 
> support the 2400/4800 printers the gap will only widen. Remember that 
> everthing I have said here is subjective and is only my opinion 
> resulting from my own emotional responses. If you can you should test 
> for yourself. QTR can be evaluated at no charge. The same used to be 
> true for Imageprint on a MAC platform. I have not had good luck with 
> MIS inks. But many on this site have had great success. You might see 
> if those inks appeal to your tastes.
> 
> There is photographer on this list that I greatly respect named Joel 
> Pickford. Quite a while back Joel talked about his 6 month testing of 
> ultrachrome inks and RIPS. He stated that it was impossible to make 
> what he considered to be "fine prints" with ultrachrome inks even 
> with a RIP and he tried them all. At the time I laughed because I 
> didn't believe him. Now after 4 months of my own testing I find that 
> my tastes are similar to Joel's.  Joel also incited EPSON to step up 
> to the plate and make a new printer for B&W printing using 3 black 
> inks. Well Joel, Epson has done so. I would love to hear what you 
> think of their product.

Re: Imageprint RIP/2200/2400/4800

2005-07-05 by alland20854

> In contrast, M.Reichmann has had the opposite opnion on the 4800. He
> 'prefers' the BW prints with his 4000 and Imageprint RIP versus the
> 4800 ABW option. Which am I to believe?

I don't know who to believe either but cerftainly not Reichmann because is the guy who, 
reviewing the 1270, stated that it produced dead neutral b&w prints right out of the box; he 
then wrote the same about the 1280 and the 2200 -- and we know all this is nonsense. It 
seems to me that he doesn't have a good eye or doesn't know what a b&w print really looks 
like. His review is also onesided towards matte papers: he concludes that the 4800 is a 
disappointment because matte prints are not better than with the 4000 -- but most people 
state that for glossy-type papers there is a great improvement: vitrtually no bronzing or 
gloss differential, and much deeper blacks that don't look veiled. Is this true? Impossible to 
say without seeding the prints or getting a review from someone whose eye one can trust.

--Mitch/Bangkok

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Imageprint RIP/2200/2400/4800

2005-07-05 by Ernst Dinkla

Tyler Boley wrote:

>A very worthwhile article. I have met Mac Holbert, these people are
>obviously committed to fine printing.
>An interesting aspect of the article, as Bruce Watson's reply
>indicates, is that other alternative solutions to the problem are
>never mentioned. It's very obvious that there is a good working
>relationship between Nash and Epson. I doubt 9800s have been shipped
>to many people for evaluation that don't have such a relationship.
>Therefore only solutions provided by, and none frowned upon, by Epson
>are discussed.
>For example, a quick check with a few old members on this list and he
>wouldn't have wasted his time testing a 2000 or 9500. Though Mac may
>have experimented with all kinds of approaches, when it comes to
>writing articles or making recommendations, I doubt his organization
>will jeopardize a relationship with Epson that is so rewarding to them.
>There are very few printers in this country of Mac's stature, and I
>don't intend to suggest I'm in a position to question his word.
>But I want to stress again- there are options, some extremely
>successful, some that even helped lead the way to slow improvement in
>these out-of-the-box improvements.
>Tyler
>  
>
Tyler,


Very well said.  It should be nice to put an alternative timetable next 
to the article with all the third party solutions to the problems 
described. Possibly not solving all the issues but a lot of them. 
Mediastreet's Generations pigment ink was there to replace the fading 
Epson dyes of the 9000, the same inkset was better on gamut and 
metamerism than the Epson Archival 9500 etc that appeared later. Cone's 
Piezography inkset and software. Ilford's Monokrome pigment inkset. MIS 
inks. Lyson's (Joseph Holmes) Small Gamut set. All the RIP versions for 
Quad printing and Paul's curves.

To be honest the struggle they described to get good B&W prints from a 
9500 with the Epson Archival ink sounds too naive. The inkset had 
everything against it for that task. No expert needed to understand 
that. We didn't upgrade the 9000's we had then.


Ernst

Re: Imageprint RIP/2200/2400/4800

2005-07-05 by Tyler Boley

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "alland20854"
<mitcha@m...> wrote:
...
> I don't know who to believe either...

Mitch, as you probably do know, certain members of lists like this.
Hopefully some kind of consensus there, and your own common sense.

After being around this stuff as long as we have, it's pretty clear to
me that in order to have a successful career as a "guru",
relationships must be made and guarded that may compromise your guru
actions and prophecies.
On the internet, this is not quite as overt as a big ad page next to a
product review article in a magazine, but it's there. Many of these
people help us a great deal, and I'm not accusing any of them of
payola, but there is not one I would rely on for the last word.
Particularly when it comes to my prints.

Tyler

[Digital BW] Re: Imageprint RIP/2200/2400/4800

2005-07-05 by Tyler Boley

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Ernst Dinkla
<E.Dinkla@c...> wrote:

> ...It should be nice to put an alternative timetable next 
> to the article with all the third party solutions to the problems 
> described...

That would be cool actually, and certainly you mentioned the main
ones. In one sense, the article was a timeline of Epson's failure to
make it happen, while in fact it's been happening, as we all know, for
quite some time.
I think we'd need Dan's help with it though, being the elder statesman
of the bunch...

Tyler
www.custom-digital.com

[Digital BW] Re: Imageprint RIP/2200/2400/4800

2005-07-10 by Danny Culbertson

Ernst wrote:
> > ...It should be nice to put an alternative timetable next 
> > to the article with all the third party solutions to the problems 
> > described...

Tyler Wrote:
snip
> I think we'd need Dan's help with it though, being the elder 
> statesman of the bunch...


Yeah, but would anyone be interested in ancient history? 

Dan (uh.. the elder "statesman?")

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Imageprint RIP/2200/2400/4800

2005-07-10 by Tom Baker

Sure.  Information is invariably better from someone who mande it up as they went, instead of someone who is making it up as they go.
 
Tom Baker


Danny Culbertson <danculb@...> wrote:
Ernst wrote:
> > ...It should be nice to put an alternative timetable next 
> > to the article with all the third party solutions to the problems 
> > described...

Tyler Wrote:
snip
> I think we'd need Dan's help with it though, being the elder 
> statesman of the bunch...


Yeah, but would anyone be interested in ancient history? 

Dan (uh.. the elder "statesman?")





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[Digital BW] Re: Imageprint RIP/2200/2400/4800

2005-07-10 by Tyler Boley

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Danny Culbertson" <danculb@b...> 
wrote:
... 
> Dan (uh.. the elder "statesman?")

ok, bad choice of words, some here probably have a few years on us, and statesman, in this 
day and age, is clearly a derogatory title.

They say it wasn't in the olden times of lore.

So make up something...

Tyler

[Digital BW] Re: Imageprint RIP/2200/2400/4800

2005-07-10 by Tyler Boley

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Danny Culbertson" <danculb@b...> 
wrote:
...
> Dan (uh.. the elder "statesman?")

Hey Dan, I've forgotten my FA geography, you're not on the gulf coast are you?

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Imageprint RIP/2200/2400/4800

2005-07-10 by James Irelan

On Jul 10, 2005, at 3:29 PM, Tyler Boley wrote:

> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Danny  
> Culbertson" <danculb@b...>
> wrote:
> ...
> > Dan (uh.. the elder "statesman?")
>
>  some here probably have a few years on us

on whom?  "elder" doesn't mean what it used to...  :   )

James

[Digital BW] Re: Imageprint RIP/2200/2400/4800

2005-07-11 by Danny Culbertson

Tyler wrote:
Hey Dan, I've forgotten my FA geography, you're not on the gulf coast 
are you?

Nope - East coast of Florida - we usually just get the hurricanes that 
come in right off the Atlantic.  But the Gulf Coast is rather near 
where I'm moving in a month. That way I can get the full measure of 
hurricanes to round out my experience.  Lived in Okinawa years ago so 
I already have a handle on typhoons.  

Anyhow, all's well here - unlike last year.  Hopefully it will stay 
that way until I move.  Evacuation is for the birds.  Can't squeeze 
enough of my Epson printers into my RV...

Dan

Move to quarantaine

This moves the raw source file on disk only. The archive index is not changed automatically, so you still need to run a manual refresh afterward.