Digital BW, The Print

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Clayton Jones" <cj@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, July 30, 2005 7:56 AM
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Ultratone vs. Epson K3 Inks


>It's a thorough review, but I don't think it addresses the
>UT7 inks.

He never got to BW prints on matte paper with MK.  It's maddening.  I
have yet to see a review that thoroughly evaluates this from a fine
art perspective.  Everyone is going GaGa over glossy prints.

I recently downloaded & installed the 2400 driver on my laptop and
went to a store & hooked it up to the floor demo that had MK
installed, and printed a step wedge on PR in ABW neutral mode.  It
made a beautifully smooth print with no dither banding, very
impressive looking by itself.

Then I got home and did the same print/paper on my 2200 using Eboni BO
and compared them.  Here are my observations:

1) The Eboni print has better Dmax, no contest.  By itself the ABW
print looks pretty good, but next to the Eboni print it's weakness is
apparent.

2) The ABW ramp moves into black too soon, decreasing shadow
separation. Perhaps some good profiling can cure that.

3) By itself the ABW print looks neutral, but next to the Eboni print
a variety of subtle color casts become apparent.  With a loupe the C
and M color dots can be clearly seen of course, just like any other
RIP with color inks.

4) Again, by itself it looks pretty good, but compared to the BO
print's luminance the ABW print has that typical dull milky opaque
look common to many full ink systems.


I have several thoughts from all this.  First is the issue of how
toning is achieved.  It seems that no matter how well done, and the
2400 is as good as any I've seen, you can't entirely remove the subtle
coloration that exists when you mix color dots in with the blacks.  So
it comes down to whether one is satisfied with that kind of result.  I
know that many users are happy with RIP/color ink results, but having
used a no-color-ink approach for so long my eye detects the color and
doesn't like it.  I find the same thing in my experiments with various
UT7 mixtures and 2K approaches (the 2nd K having color toners mixed
in).   Besides coloration, there is the lower Dmax and the opaque
look.  What these all add up to is that the 2400 would not be a
satisfactory solution for me.

It seems that while BW printing technology was in its infancy all BW
folks were thrown into one camp - we all wanted something that worked
and lasted.  But now that BW technology is getting better, the users
are being segregated into groups more akin to the "dark ages".  Please
don't nitpick me on the following statement, I'm speaking in
generalities just to make a point - There were on the one hand folks
such as beginners, students, hobbyists, non-fine-art professionals,
whatever, who were satisfied with RC prints and who didn't obsess over
the finest nuances of things.  On the other hand were the fine art
zonie types who only used fiber paper and all the rest.

Seems like the 2400 will be an ideal printer for people in the first
group.  It turns out really good looking prints if you don't examine
them with too high a standard.  But will it satisfy people in the 2nd
group?  Not me.  Even the glossy prints.  I know lot's of people have
said "WOW!" upon seeing them.  But I have examined several prints and
find them pretty good, but ultimately unconvincing compared to a good
RC silver print, mostly because of the subtle coloration.  It really
isn't neutral black, it's warm black with C and M added in an attempt
to fool the eye.  Color is color.  They simply aren't the same.

The best non-BO prints I've seen, in terms of Dmax and luminance, were
done with a 2K approach using QTR with Eboni and some sort of LK.  It
preserves enough luminance to avoid the milky opaque look and is much
smoother than BO.  The only drawback is the coloration in the LK.  My
"holy grail" is still to find a way to dilute the K, so that both inks
respond the same to the paper the way Eboni BO does.  That will avoid
the coloration look and side-step any longevity issues associated with
color inks.  So I'll stick with the 2200 for now.

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm





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From: "Chris Hargens" <chargens@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, July 30, 2005 12:39 PM
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Ultratone vs. Epson K3 Inks


Does Eboni have better Dmax then than the MK ink used for the 2200?

Chris Hargens


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Clayton Jones"
<cj@c...> wrote:

>
> 1) The Eboni print has better Dmax, no contest.  By itself the ABW
> print looks pretty good, but next to the Eboni print it's weakness is
> apparent.






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----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Chris Hargens" <chargens@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, July 30, 2005 5:45 PM
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Ultratone vs. Epson K3 Inks


Earlier this morning I ran a Eboni cart on my 2200 using QTR with the
profiles for UC MK and the Eboni print looked lighter and less
contrasty than the same print made with MK. So I'm wondering what
kind of adjustments need to be made to the profiles to take advantage
of the greater dmax that Eboni offers -- are we talking completely
new profiles? Also, would the difference be noticeable enough to make
it worthwhile. Another thought, if Eboni has a significantly better
dmax than the new black for Piezo K7 inkset, then why couldn't one
just substitute Eboni for that black?

Chris Hargens

 --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Elwood Spedden
<elwood@w...> wrote:
> Substantially! I have been making some new profiles
> with QTR today and using the Innova Soft Textured Art
> paper I got a dmax of 1.58 with UC Matte Black and
> 1.67 with MIS Eboni. Very substantial indeed.


>
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----- Original Message ----- 
From: "wwodets" <odets@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, July 30, 2005 11:02 PM
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Ultratone vs. Epson K3 Inks


Clayton-

I can give you some feedback, of sorts, on the matte capabilities of
the 2400.  While I am aware that you may dismiss it for the lack of
hard figures, I am a very experienced traditional BW printer, having
worked in BW lab work since 1965.  I believe that I have a good eye
for a BW image and what makes a print work.

The 2400 that I have been using for the past month or so is producing
astonishing results over a wide range of prints of negatives with
which I am familiar.  I am using EEM for proof and Epson VFA for
final prints, both with the Epson inks (MK).  Although they do not
look like gelatin DW glossy-matte dried prints, they are comparable
in every way, and almost certainly better than what could ever have
been produced with a wet process on matte papers.  One can nitpick
*any* print to death, but all said and done, this is a remarkable
process "out of the box."

I realize that this is not a forum about photography, but "the
print," but ultimately the only real problem in photography is the
photograph.  The print merely serves the photograph and if the
photograph is of no interest the quality of the print is entirely
moot.  So, what I am suggesting is some perspective on these issues
and a reluctance to dismiss as neophytes and amateurs all those who
don't see what you see. To this long-trained eye, the Epson 2400 is a
remarkable achievement and will be a significant contribution to the
work of many serious, perceptive photographers.

To put my comments on the print issue in some perspective, I have
always found Ansel Adams a photographic bore who wrote a couple of
useful, if not entirely original, technical books.  Give me a Lee
Friedlander, Robert Frank or Cartier-Bresson print any day of the
week.  So, I suppose that puts our objectives in somewhat different
camps.

With good wishes and thanks for your contributions,

Walt










--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Clayton Jones"
<cj@c...> wrote:
> Hello Tony,
>
> >That was one of the more interesting posts I've read in awhile,
> >on a topic of particular interest to me at the moment.  In my
> >studio, I have a Epson 4000 as my main printer for B&W.  I'm
> >using the standard Epson UC inkset with Eboni Black instead of
> >the Epson MK and using QTR or BO.  I was thinking of adding the
> >2400 as sort of "test bed" to see if I wanted to upgrade the 4000
> >to the 4800.  Think I'll wait for some more reviews of the K3
> >inkset.
>
> At $850 that's an expensive test bed - maybe I saved you a lot of
> money <g>.  It's always tough knowing what to do when a brand new
> system comes out.  It seems worse in this case because all the
> reviewers, and even the early users, are going on about how great
the
> glossy prints are, and many don't even mention MK/matte prints.  I
> have yet to see a really thorough review or user report on
MK/matte.
>
>
>
> >My only problem with BO is that I frequently get
> >microbanding that I haven't figured out how to get rid of.
>
> It seems to vary from one printer to another.  I have a Carl
Schofield
> 4000 BO print that's one of the finest I've ever seen and has no
> dither banding.  From that I thought that all 4000s would be that
way,
> but learned later it wasn't so.  I cured it on my 2200 with a head
> alignment at a supposedly less than optimal setting, but it worked.
> The tiny amount that is there requires a loupe to see it.
>
> Regards,
> Clayton
>
>
> Info on black and white digital printing at
> http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm





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----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Clayton Jones" <cj@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, July 31, 2005 12:38 PM
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Ultratone vs. Epson K3 Inks


Hello Walt,

Thanks for your thoughtful reply.  I share your opinions on many
things you said, but on a few things I feel like my words have been
misunderstood, so let me try to clarify a couple of things.

First, my remarks about the two groups were in no way meant to imply
that one is superior or better than another.  I was just trying to
point out what I see happening.  It is a fact that in the darkroom
days there were people who were perfectly happy using RC paper and
others for whom RC was unacceptable (regardless of what genre of
photography they did).  Those in the 2nd group were not superior, they
just had different needs, desires and expectations.  People in both
groups I'm sure spanned the entire spectrum of knowledge, experience
and talent.

Over the past 6 months or so there has been a lot of attention drawn
to the newest glossy papers and the great dmax they were getting with
PKN, various sprays, etc.  Some people were raving about it, and
others were saying things like "well I don't like glossy, this won't
do for me", and some others said things like "well, I like the dmax so
maybe I can live with this paper if I reduce the shiny look with a
matte spray", and so on.  It was during this time that it first
occurred to me how the two groups had been lumped together with a
shared need in the digital world, but the difference was beginning to
show - some were happy with this new technology and other's weren't.

I was not the first to remark about it in this forum.  A few months
ago either Tyler Boley or Ernst Dinkla (I can't remember which) said
something about it.  I remember it distinctly because it echoed
exactly what I had been thinking.  As time went on the difference
became even more clear, as some people expressed sentiments to the
effect that their ship had come in for BW printing, that the
technology had finally gotten to the point that they had what they had
been wanting all this time, while others, including myself, were still
unsatisfied.

As for my remarks about the 2400 quality, I have to go back a few
years.  When I got into this the most popular RIP was IP (QTR didn't
exist).  Even back then there were those who liked the results of
mixing in color ink dots and those who didn't, who stuck with the
grayscale inks of the time.  Some people raved on and on about the
quality, and others didn't like it.  Through print exchanges I saw
prints from just about every system in use at the time, and I
eventually found myself on the side of those who didn't like the color
ink approach.  Since then everything has improved, but we still
haven't gotten away from the fact that when color inks are used for
toning, either through color dots on the paper or mixed in the inks,
those colors are discernable.  Some people don't mind that, others
don't like it.

When the K3 printers arrived it was interesting to me that all the
reviewers and early user reports raved about the quality of the PK
glossy prints, while little was said about MK/matte.  It began to leak
out in various remarks that K3 didn't offer much improvement for MK
(to which I now agree; as someone else already said, Epson has finally
gotten to where the 3pp folks have already been for some time).  I
began to get the idea that K3 would be fine for the RC types but not
for the matte paper fine art crowd.  I have seen glossy and matte K3
prints.  They are very fine to a point, but they do not satisfy me.
The main thing for me is the coloration.

It has become clear to me over these years that people can get used to
and accept something they experience over and over.  I've had people
send me prints they raved about which I didn't like, and particularly
in the area of coloration.  I have received prints that were supposed
to look like selenium toned fiber, and all I saw was a bunch of ugly
pinkish magenta tint.  In prints that were supposed to look like sepia
I saw yellowish-pinkish-orangey colors...didn't look at all like sepia
to me.  In prints that some raved about as beautiful warm tone looked
like ugly dull hershey bar chocolate.

I got into BO printing for various reasons, and one of the results of
that is that I never got used to seeing color toned inks.  I was able
to get a variety of tones from the different papers, and the tones
were pure.  So my eyes have never gotten used to and accepted the
coloration.  I don't like it, it looks fake to me.  I'm looking at the
2400 MK print right now as I write this, and I can see hints of
yellow, magenta and cyan in different places in the ramp.  I don't
want that in my prints.

Other issues are Dmax and luminance.  Along with pure tones I've
gotten used to the excellent dmax that Eboni BO gives on matte papers,
and the extraordinary luminance.  I have yet to see a print made with
a full ink set that matches it.  Lots of prints can look great to the
eye by themselves.  But put them next to something else and suddenly
things you didn't notice before become apparent.  I was very impressed
with this 2400 print in the store.  I had the same "Wow!" response
that others have reported.  I looked at it with a loupe and saw a very
smooth ramp with no dither banding.  Even the dmax looked good and the
highlights looked sparkly.  On the way home I was thinking about
buying one.

Then I printed the same image with Eboni BO and suddenly, except for
the smoothness of course, the 2400 print looked anemic.  It lacks the
dmax and the luminance, and the coloration is obvious.  It just
doesn't do what I want.

I don't expect that all matte paper users will dislike the printer
(obviously you are one who likes it), but I suspect there will be many
for whom it doesn't make the grade, for one reason or another.  I do
expect that a very large percentage of the glossy paper users will
like it.

But none of this is to imply superiority.  I understand very well that
different people have different needs.  However I can't prevent
someone from interpreting my words that way if they are so inclined.
Not much I can do about that except say what I'm saying.

As for photographic genres, I have a huge respect for AA and others of
the west coast school, particularly E. Weston and Imogen Cunningham.
I also love the works of Steiglitz and Laura Gilpin in the platinum
realm.  In the street genre not only do I admire Bresson and
Friedlander, but also Boubat, Riboud, Kertesz, Lartigue, Levitt,
Lavenson, Erwitt and Sudek.  These all have a place in my book
collection, and my books don't rot on the shelves.  I regularly go
through and enjoy various ones as the mood strikes.  So please don't
interpret from my remarks that I'm a fine art west coast elitist.  And
nor do I associate non-zonie photography with RC prints.  I once saw a
large Bresson exhibit, about 140 prints, all beautifully printed on
fiber paper.  I don't have those kinds of associations in my
thinking.
And I also agree that if a photo is poor the best printing technique
can't save it.

Im happy that you love the 2400, and I don't think of you as inferior
in any way for it.  I agree that it is a remarkable achievement and a
significant contribution.  It is clearly the best out of the box BW
solution to date.  But it simply doesn't meet my standards.  I'm sorry
if that sounds like superiority, I don't mean it that way.  I just
want better dmax, better luminance and pure tones.  I don't know if
it's possible to say that without someone who is satisfied with the
printer feeling something.

Thanks again for the good feedback, and I hope this helps clarify my
remarks.


Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm






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----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Clayton Jones" <cj@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, July 31, 2005 5:19 PM
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Ultratone vs. Epson K3 Inks


Hello Gary,

>It would be very hepful on your website, if the postage size
>thumbnails could be viewed larger. They are so small that you
>can't see any of the detail you are describing. I realize the
>quality of images on the net isn't the greatest. But the ability
>to view them larger would help.

Thanks for the suggestion.  I'm not sure what you mean by "the detail
you are describing".  Do you mean things I say about BO printing in my
articles?  If so, seeing larger images wouldn't be much help because
they aren't scans of prints.  You couldn't tell anything about BO
prints from them, they are just digital images.  If I misunderstood
I'm sorry, let me know.


Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm





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BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT 
YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND 
"MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU 
FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY 
DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, 
GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  "OWNER" AND 
"MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE 
POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY 
TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR 
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THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER 
MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.

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