Digital BW, The Print

Any recommendations and suggestions on a CRT 22" monitor would be most 
appreciated.  Thanks.
Donald
----- Original Message ----- 

From: "dschiemann" <DSCHIEMANN@...>
To: "EPSON PRINTERS" <EPSON_Printers@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, August 12, 2005 2:12 PM
Subject: [EPSON_Printers] CRT 22" monitors


>I apologize for posting a request on a subject that has been discussed many
> times, but I must make a decision on the purchase of a CRT 21-22" monitor
> and am confused about the choice.  I thought the LaCie Electron Blue IV 
> 22"
> was the best choice, but read a negative review.  The Mitsubishi Diamond 
> Pro
> 2070SB-BK with or without Spectraview is apparently unavailable, and also
> would probably exceed my budget of something around $800 or less.  Does
> anyone have an opinion on the NEC Multysync FE2111SB-BK?  Your comments 
> and
> recommendations will be most appreciated.
> Donald
>
>
>
>
>
> Also try our Canon Printer list at:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Canon-printers
>
> our HP Printer list at: 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HP-inkjet
>
> and, our Lexmark Printer list at:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lexmark-inkjet
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Hi Donald,

I'll venture an opinion here.  I was in the same situation as you in
that I needed to replace my 21" Trinitron graphics CRT due to aging
color guns, etc.  

The bottom line:  none of the 22" monitors I purchased or did a hands
on workflow with (Mitshibushi 2070SB - two of them, IBM top of the
line equivalents - two of them, Lacie, etc.) - all the top rated
models, except I did not try the Sony Artisan, had serious color cast
problems in my studio environment.  I got the impression that the
manufacturers were cutting corners as they were phasing out every one
of these models.  When I tried to send the second 2070SB back to the
manufacturer, they told me they couldn't replace it as they had
discontinued production. The Sony Artisan is out of production also. 
Color mgmt guru Andrew Rodney I believe went through 3 Lacies and they
all had color cast problems.  Another photographer colleague of mine
bought a Lacie, was happy with it for about 4 months and it developed
color cast problems.  He sent it back and got one that was worse.

I have to tell you packing up those heavy anchors and shipping back
and forth trying to get a good one is something I don't want to ever
deal with again.

I'm back to using my old Sony Trinitron monitors.  They were getting
worrisome, but they still calibrate with my Monoco OpticXR.  I was
trying to be proactive, but the fact is, I don't think there is much
out there in CRT's that you want to sink money in.  Even if you find a
good one, good luck getting any factory support.  They'll just send
you a refurb which may or not be as good as what you had.

I realize that my experience may be atypical (I hope so), but I've
decided to replace the Sonys with LCD monitors - possibly the new
large Dell models.  I did a brief trial with a Samsung 213T (21") and
actually was fairly pleased with it.  I think the newer models will be
better though.  The better ones are handling black points and tonal
transitions much better than before.  

Good luck!

Tony




--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "dschiemann"
<DSCHIEMANN@p...> wrote:
> Any recommendations and suggestions on a CRT 22" monitor would be most 
> appreciated.  Thanks.
> Donald
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "dschiemann" <DSCHIEMANN@p...>
> To: "EPSON PRINTERS" <EPSON_Printers@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Friday, August 12, 2005 2:12 PM
> Subject: [EPSON_Printers] CRT 22" monitors
> 
> 
> >I apologize for posting a request on a subject that has been
discussed many
> > times, but I must make a decision on the purchase of a CRT 21-22"
monitor
> > and am confused about the choice.  I thought the LaCie Electron
Blue IV 
> > 22"
> > was the best choice, but read a negative review.  The Mitsubishi
Diamond 
> > Pro
> > 2070SB-BK with or without Spectraview is apparently unavailable,
and also
> > would probably exceed my budget of something around $800 or less.
 Does
> > anyone have an opinion on the NEC Multysync FE2111SB-BK?  Your
comments 

> > and
> > recommendations will be most appreciated.
> > Donald
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Also try our Canon Printer list at:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Canon-printers
> >
> > our HP Printer list at: 
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HP-inkjet
> >
> > and, our Lexmark Printer list at:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lexmark-inkjet
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Tony Bonanno" 
<tbonanno-ranger2004@m...> wrote:
> 
> I realize that my experience may be atypical (I hope so), but I've
> decided to replace the Sonys with LCD monitors - possibly the new
> large Dell models.  I did a brief trial with a Samsung 213T (21") 
and
> actually was fairly pleased with it.  I think the newer models will 
be
> better though.  The better ones are handling black points and tonal
> transitions much better than before.  
> 

The Apple Cinema displays are really nice, now that they use a 
regular DVI connection, they work with any DVI capable video card. 
The Samsung units are also really good, seems Samsung is a real 
pioneer in the LCD arena. They claim great things with their newer 
organic LCD displays, though I haven't seen any of those yet. Eizo 
makes a top rated LCD, it of course costs a lot. NEC/Mitsubishi are 
really nice too and offer the same 3 year warranty that they did with 
the CRTs. WHatever you try/buy you probably want to go with a multi 
frequecy (Multisync) unit with a DVI connection. DVI makes a big 
difference.

Hi Donald,

While I am no expert on CRT monitors, I do own a Mitsubishi Diamond  
Pro 2070 SB.  And, when I purchased it, I had done a bit of homework  
on the NEC/Mitsubishi monitors.  Essentially, the 2070 SB and the  
FE2111 SB are the same monitor, simply marketed under the NEC or  
Mitsubishi names, respectively.  One of the few differences I found  
was that the FE2111 does not support the 2048 x 1536 resolution (not  
sure why), but that doesn't really matter (that is unless you need it  
for some reason) since the recommended resolution for both monitors  
is 1600 x 1200.  Also, the FE2111 does not have a built in USB hub.   
Otherwise, they have the same picture tube, and offer essentially the  
exact same features.  If you'd like to check this yourself, you can  
go to NEC's website and look up their non-current monitors, then  
compare the user's manuals.

I did want to mention that by doing a search on froogle.com I located  
three online suppliers that were still offering the 2070 SB, and the  
lowest price was around $690 USD, the only drawback is that I've  
never heard of any of the three companies before, I guess, buyer  
beware.  As far as the price goes, if they charge shipping, it'll be  
a hefty charge, as the monitor is approximately 65 lbs.  I do have to  
say that you'll probably have difficulty locating the FE2111 SB as  
well considering it has been discontinued as well.

Now, as to recommendations, mind you this is based on my subject  
evaluation, I would highly recommend either monitor, as I have been  
exceptionally happy with mine.  Probably the best feature offered  
with these, is the ability to use the downloadable software, Naviset,  
to control the RGB guns separately.  In conjunction with reasonably  
capable color management software and a colorimeter, the color  
accuracy I've achieved is nearly perfect (I'm using the Spyder2PRO  
system).  As far as rendering text, the monitors definitely rank  
pretty low as they seem to have been optimized for graphics, and  
generally text is somewhat soft.  So, if you were wanting to use it  
for any sort of graphic design layouts, that might be something to  
consider.  Otherwise, it hasn't been an issue for me.

Well, good luck, and hope this helps.

Best regards,

Eric
www.ericashworth.net

On Aug 14, 2005, at 11:31 AM, dschiemann wrote:

> Any recommendations and suggestions on a CRT 22" monitor would be most
> appreciated.  Thanks.
> Donald
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "dschiemann" <DSCHIEMANN@...>
> To: "EPSON PRINTERS" <EPSON_Printers@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Friday, August 12, 2005 2:12 PM
> Subject: [EPSON_Printers] CRT 22" monitors
>
>
> >I apologize for posting a request on a subject that has been  
> discussed many
> > times, but I must make a decision on the purchase of a CRT 21-22"  
> monitor
> > and am confused about the choice.  I thought the LaCie Electron  
> Blue IV
> > 22"
> > was the best choice, but read a negative review.  The Mitsubishi  
> Diamond
> > Pro
> > 2070SB-BK with or without Spectraview is apparently unavailable,  
> and also
> > would probably exceed my budget of something around $800 or  
> less.  Does
> > anyone have an opinion on the NEC Multysync FE2111SB-BK?  Your  
> comments
> > and
> > recommendations will be most appreciated.
> > Donald

One last note, the response in the "shadows" of my images has been  
one of the reasons for my satisfaction with the monitor.  The  
separation of values is quite readable and therefore a more accurate  
reflection of my final print.  I had considered an Apple Display, but  
was rather disappointed with their performance in the darker values.   
Once again, my subjective evaluation, so take it with a grain of salt.

Regards,

Eric
www.ericashworth.net

Donald

I have been using the new Dell 24" wide model for
several months and have been very happy. I calibrate
it using the eye one photo and calibrate my printers
with the same software. When I use the soft proofing
feature of PS CS2 I get a very good correlation
between what I see and what I get........Not 100% but
certainly close enough to keep the number of proofs to
a minimum.

While Dell is not often lumped in with the "high end
monitors" it is the opinion of many now that their
offerings are very competitive. (For example, the
Apple 21" Theater display and the Dell equivalent use
exactly the same module from LG electronics) 

Good Hunting
Woody Spedden

--- Tony Bonanno <tbonanno-ranger2004@...>
wrote:


---------------------------------
Hi Donald,

I'll venture an opinion here.  I was in the same
situation as you in
that I needed to replace my 21" Trinitron graphics CRT
due to aging
color guns, etc.  

The bottom line:  none of the 22" monitors I purchased
or did a hands
on workflow with (Mitshibushi 2070SB - two of them,
IBM top of the
line equivalents - two of them, Lacie, etc.) - all the
top rated
models, except I did not try the Sony Artisan, had
serious color cast
problems in my studio environment.  I got the
impression that the
manufacturers were cutting corners as they were
phasing out every one
of these models.  When I tried to send the second
2070SB back to the
manufacturer, they told me they couldn't replace it as
they had
discontinued production. The Sony Artisan is out of
production also. 
Color mgmt guru Andrew Rodney I believe went through 3
Lacies and they
all had color cast problems.  Another photographer
colleague of mine
bought a Lacie, was happy with it for about 4 months
and it developed
color cast problems.  He sent it back and got one that
was worse.

I have to tell you packing up those heavy anchors and
shipping back
and forth trying to get a good one is something I
don't want to ever
deal with again.

I'm back to using my old Sony Trinitron monitors. 
They were getting
worrisome, but they still calibrate with my Monoco
OpticXR.  I was
trying to be proactive, but the fact is, I don't think
there is much
out there in CRT's that you want to sink money in. 
Even if you find a
good one, good luck getting any factory support. 
They'll just send
you a refurb which may or not be as good as what you
had.

I realize that my experience may be atypical (I hope
so), but I've
decided to replace the Sonys with LCD monitors -
possibly the new
large Dell models.  I did a brief trial with a Samsung
213T (21") and
actually was fairly pleased with it.  I think the
newer models will be
better though.  The better ones are handling black
points and tonal
transitions much better than before.  

Good luck!

Tony




--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com,
"dschiemann"
<DSCHIEMANN@p...> wrote:
> Any recommendations and suggestions on a CRT 22"
monitor would be most 
> appreciated.  Thanks.
> Donald
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "dschiemann" <DSCHIEMANN@p...>
> To: "EPSON PRINTERS"
<EPSON_Printers@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Friday, August 12, 2005 2:12 PM
> Subject: [EPSON_Printers] CRT 22" monitors
> 
> 
> >I apologize for posting a request on a subject that
has been
discussed many
> > times, but I must make a decision on the purchase
of a CRT 21-22"
monitor
> > and am confused about the choice.  I thought the
LaCie Electron
Blue IV 
> > 22"
> > was the best choice, but read a negative review. 
The Mitsubishi
Diamond 
> > Pro
> > 2070SB-BK with or without Spectraview is
apparently unavailable,
and also
> > would probably exceed my budget of something
around $800 or less.
 Does
> > anyone have an opinion on the NEC Multysync
FE2111SB-BK?  Your
comments 
> > and
> > recommendations will be most appreciated.
> > Donald
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Also try our Canon Printer list at:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Canon-printers
> >
> > our HP Printer list at: 
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HP-inkjet
> >
> > and, our Lexmark Printer list at:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lexmark-inkjet
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >




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Since this is a B&W forum, do other forum members find that grain in
scanned B&W images seems accenctuated by LCD monitors, and not so
by CRT monitors?   Or am I seeing things?  Or is it a quality of LCD monitor
issue or what? 

I'm not in love with the bulk of my aging Dell Trinitron, but this issue 
has
bothered me in the past.

Thanks.

Scott

Tony Bonanno wrote:

>
> I realize that my experience may be atypical (I hope so), but I've
> decided to replace the Sonys with LCD monitors - possibly the new
> large Dell models.  I did a brief trial with a Samsung 213T (21") and
> actually was fairly pleased with it.  I think the newer models will be
> better though.  The better ones are handling black points and tonal
> transitions much better than before. 
>
> Good luck!
>
> Tony
>
>

I've definitely experienced the same perception.  If I'm working from  
negatives, I definitely prefer working on a CRT as I feel it gives me  
a little bit better sense of the values and textures in the image.   
Also, often when I'm sharpening an image right before printing, I  
find that I have to increase the sharpening beyond what looks good on  
my CRT to get a print equivalent to my expectations.  And, if I view  
the same image on my LCD, it's even worse, making it difficult to  
guestimate the level of sharpening needed.  From what I've read, that  
is primarily due to the fact that the image your viewing is set to 72  
ppi, whereas if you're printing high res output, your actual  
resolution is at least 4 times that.  And, since LCDs generally are  
more "crisp," this effect is exaggerated.  But, since it seems that  
prosumer CRTs are generally disappearing from the market, maybe it's  
just something we'll have to get used to.

Eric
www.ericashworth.net

On Aug 14, 2005, at 3:34 PM, Scott McLoughlin wrote:

> Since this is a B&W forum, do other forum members find that grain in
> scanned B&W images seems accenctuated by LCD monitors, and not so
> by CRT monitors?   Or am I seeing things?  Or is it a quality of  
> LCD monitor
> issue or what?
>
> I'm not in love with the bulk of my aging Dell Trinitron, but this  
> issue
> has
> bothered me in the past.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Scott

Eric:
    Thanks so much for your thoughtful advice.
Donald

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]