Digital BW, The Print

Hi all,

I've been lurking on this board for 3 or 4 years.  My last pass at 
quads was Piezography and Piezotones on a 1160 a few years 
ago.  I do most of my work in color on a 7600, but still like to 
shoot some b/w on occasion.

I picked up a C86 a few months ago and test -printed a bit, with 
satisfactory results.   

For some reason, I'm not able to download the MIS EZ curves 
that Paul posted.  

I'm running a Mac G3 on OS 9.2, and my mouse does not have a 
right-click option.

Any pointers?  Thanks!

Ellen Rutchick

erutchick2002 wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> I've been lurking on this board for 3 or 4 years.  My last pass at
> quads was Piezography and Piezotones on a 1160 a few years
> ago.  I do most of my work in color on a 7600, but still like to
> shoot some b/w on occasion.
>
> I picked up a C86 a few months ago and test -printed a bit, with
> satisfactory results.  
>
> For some reason, I'm not able to download the MIS EZ curves
> that Paul posted. 
>
> I'm running a Mac G3 on OS 9.2, and my mouse does not have a
> right-click option.
>
> Any pointers?  Thanks!
>
> Ellen Rutchick
>
>
Two options.

1. Hold down CTRL when you click, which is a right-click on a mac with a 
1 button mouse.

2. Any 2 or more button USB mouse will work fine on your Mac. I've a 
Logitech 4 button+wheel mouse hooked up to the Mac I'm posting this from.

-Adam

Where are these C86 curves posted, and what do they do?  I have a C84
and I'd like to try them out.

Thanks,
Robert Ades

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "erutchick2002"
<erutchick@a...> wrote:

> Hi all,
> 
> I've been lurking on this board for 3 or 4 years.  My last pass at 
> quads was Piezography and Piezotones on a 1160 a few years 
> ago.  I do most of my work in color on a 7600, but still like to 
> shoot some b/w on occasion.
> 
> I picked up a C86 a few months ago and test -printed a bit, with 
> satisfactory results.   
> 
> For some reason, I'm not able to download the MIS EZ curves 
> that Paul posted.  
> 
> I'm running a Mac G3 on OS 9.2, and my mouse does not have a 
> right-click option.
> 
> Any pointers?  Thanks!
> 
> Ellen Rutchick

The C86 curves are here: http://home1.gte.net/res09aij/C86-curves.html

I have no idea if they'll work on a C84.  However, grayscale curves are
relatively easy to modify.  I have a tutorial aimed at the UT FS curves at
http://home1.gte.net/res09aij/Monotone_Curves.htm that should work just as
well for these C86 curves.

In general, my printing information is indexed at
http://home1.gte.net/res09aij/index.htm

Good luck.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Robert
> Sent: Sunday, August 21, 2005 4:34 PM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Digital BW] Paul's C86 EZ Curves - Where are they?
> 
> Where are these C86 curves posted, and what do they do?  I have a C84
> and I'd like to try them out.
> 
> Thanks,
> Robert Ades
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "erutchick2002"
> <erutchick@a...> wrote:
> > Hi all,
> >
> > I've been lurking on this board for 3 or 4 years.  My last pass at
> > quads was Piezography and Piezotones on a 1160 a few years
> > ago.  I do most of my work in color on a 7600, but still like to
> > shoot some b/w on occasion.
> >
> > I picked up a C86 a few months ago and test -printed a bit, with
> > satisfactory results.
> >
> > For some reason, I'm not able to download the MIS EZ curves
> > that Paul posted.
> >
> > I'm running a Mac G3 on OS 9.2, and my mouse does not have a
> > right-click option.
> >
> > Any pointers?  Thanks!
> >
> > Ellen Rutchick
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
> they are often being updated.
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
> page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
> Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
> membership without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
> printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from
> the membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner
> and Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files
> section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> 
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
> YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND
> "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO
> YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR
> EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF
> PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE
> "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN
> ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE
> OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii)
> UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii)
> STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
> YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE
> PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
> 
>

Paul:

I'm sort of a newbie with this group.  I'm trying the EZN inks with a
C84 as a testbed to see if I want to eventually use UT7 inks with my
2200 for dedicated B&W printing.  If I did that, I'd retire the C84 to
other uses and perhaps purchase an 1800 for color work.

I'm confused about your role with MIS.  Do you work with the company
as a part of their R&D?  I'm also confused about the proper settings
one should use with MIS inksets.  For instance, with EZN, the printer
settings per MIS are different from the ones you recommend. 
Naturally, I'm less concerned with the EZN setup, but if I go with UT7
inks, I would like to know that whatever information I am receiving is
consistent and true to proper B&W printing.

You input and feedback is appreciated.

Robert Ades

 -- and then there are these curves.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark"
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> The C86 curves are here: http://home1.gte.net/res09aij/C86-curves.html
> 
> I have no idea if they'll work on a C84.  However, grayscale curves are
> relatively easy to modify.  I have a tutorial aimed at the UT FS
curves at
> http://home1.gte.net/res09aij/Monotone_Curves.htm that should work
just as
> well for these C86 curves.
> 
> In general, my printing information is indexed at
> http://home1.gte.net/res09aij/index.htm
> 
> Good luck.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com 
> 
> 
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> > [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
Robert
> > Sent: Sunday, August 21, 2005 4:34 PM
> > To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [Digital BW] Paul's C86 EZ Curves - Where are they?
> > 
> > Where are these C86 curves posted, and what do they do?  I have a C84
> > and I'd like to try them out.
> > 
> > Thanks,
> > Robert Ades
> > 
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "erutchick2002"
> > <erutchick@a...> wrote:
> > > Hi all,
> > >
> > > I've been lurking on this board for 3 or 4 years.  My last pass at
> > > quads was Piezography and Piezotones on a 1160 a few years
> > > ago.  I do most of my work in color on a 7600, but still like to
> > > shoot some b/w on occasion.
> > >
> > > I picked up a C86 a few months ago and test -printed a bit, with
> > > satisfactory results.
> > >
> > > For some reason, I'm not able to download the MIS EZ curves
> > > that Paul posted.
> > >
> > > I'm running a Mac G3 on OS 9.2, and my mouse does not have a
> > > right-click option.
> > >
> > > Any pointers?  Thanks!
> > >
> > > Ellen Rutchick
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other
resources as
> > they are often being updated.
> > 
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> > 
> > If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you
wish to
> > unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting
this same
> > page.
> > 
> > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages
to keep
> > them short.
> > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
flames.
> > Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
> > membership without notice.
> > - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of
digital B&W
> > printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be
removed from
> > the membership.
> > - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
> > guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group
Owner
> > and Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files
> > section:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> > 
> > BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE
PRINT
> > YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND
> > "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE
LIABLE TO
> > YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR
> > EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF
> > PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE
> > "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE
BEEN
> > ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i)
THE USE
> > OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii)
> > UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR
DATA; (iii)

> > STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
> > YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE
> > PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> > 
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >

Robert,

> ... I'm trying the EZN inks with a C84 as a testbed ...
> 
> I'm confused about your role with MIS.  
> Do you work with the company as a part of their R&D? 

MIS and I have never had any formal relationship.  I started modifying Piezo
inksets to make them more neutral and get control over the tones/hues of the
prints, but the seller (Jon Cone) was not happy with what he saw as
competition.  So, members of the Piezo ink forum suggested I try MIS inks,
which I did.  

MIS has a totally different business model than Jon has.  MIS just makes
what its customers want.  They found that lots of people wanted the mixes
that I was publishing.  So, I've become, in part, their de facto B&W inkset
"R&D" guy.  But it's all informal.  I'm not on their payroll, but I do get
free ink and some related supplies.  (They've offered to pay, but I've,
perhaps foolishly, declined.  I'm a retired public servant who is simply not
comfortable doing anything for money.)


> I'm also confused about the proper settings
> one should use with MIS inksets.  For instance, with EZN, the printer
> settings per MIS are different from the ones you recommend.

Be sure you're looking at the settings for the model you have. On my Printer
Information index, at http://home1.gte.net/res09aij/index.htm, I don't have
anything listed for the C84.  I have a "Readme" file for the C86, but the
settings may be different for the C84.  Before I made the "Readme" files,
I'd just take notes on what seemed to work and send them to MIS.  Those have
ended up in various places on the MIS website.



> Naturally, I'm less concerned with the EZN setup, but if I go with UT7
> inks, I would like to know that whatever information I am receiving is
> consistent and true to proper B&W printing.


I have a Readme for the UT7 and 2200 that is accessible from my Index,
above.  I do not support printers any further than what is on that index.
Those are basically the printers I've used.  I use the Readme files as
notebooks of what worked for me.  The curves that are posted are the curves
I make for the printers I have.



The question as to what is "consistent and true to proper B&W printing" is
more complex.  There perhaps is no such thing.  However, here are some of my
thoughts on the subject.

Recently and for newer printers, I've moved to inksets that can be
controlled via the Epson driver sliders as well as with Photoshop curves and
rips like QTR and IJC.  The driver sliders don't give a lot of control, but
if the B&W inkset is made for them, the print quality with minimal slider
controls is often, on average, the best there is.  

As one moves away from the Epson driver and all the jets firing, the chances
of problems start to increase.  In particular, many printers appear to need
all the jets or "channels" firing to hide what we'd consider printer defects
that cause microbanding.  The more one pays for a printer, often the more
likely it'll be built well enough to use radical curves (or Black Only
printing) that cut out inks.  However, even with 2200s if curves cut out
some "colors" or jets, a certain percentage of them will show some
microbanding or other artifacts.  So, for those who get a printer that is
marginal and can't handle the curves or other options we often talk about,
being able to print with the Epson driver at near default settings is a good
fallback that may well save their investment. 

Also, being able to just print with the Epson driver at near default
settings and get a good B&W print is much needed positive reinforcement for
many.  The frequent posters on this forum are technically savvy and much
more tolerant of the problems that might be encountered as one moves away
from the Epson driver than is the typical B&W photographer who simply wants
to output his or her digital files.  Part of my "mission" is to get top
notch output to these more typical B&W photographers (including those with
limited budgets).
 
At any rate, Epson doesn't make its systems for people like most of the
posters here who use non-Epson inks and/or specialized workflows.  So, we're
often asking our printers to do things they were never designed to do.

So, what is "consistent and true to proper B&W printing"?  There is probably
no such thing, but Epson would say buy a 2400.  In this printer they've
integrated "B&W" printing into the driver, where they also have all the ink
jets firing -- probably for the same reason I use that position. 

On the other hand, a C86 will make more lightfast B&W for a fraction the
cost of a 2400.  And with the R200, I hope to have not only more lightfast
but also smoother B&W output at the $69 printer level.  

And you can be sure that the approach I use for the 2400 I now have will
have a mode that takes advantage of the Epson driver and has all the jets
firing.  On top of this will be curves and rip controls that get more out of
the system, but the starting point is the "rip" that was an integral part of
the printer design -- the Epson driver at near default settings.

I'm not sure the 2200 is being made any more.  If there are good ones
available for cheap, it may still be a good way to go, but if one has to pay
a price close to the 2400, I'd recommend stepping up to the 2400.

Hope this rambling post helps.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 

> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark"
> <paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> > The C86 curves are here: http://home1.gte.net/res09aij/C86-curves.html
> >
> > I have no idea if they'll work on a C84.  However, grayscale curves are
> > relatively easy to modify.  I have a tutorial aimed at the UT FS
> curves at
> > http://home1.gte.net/res09aij/Monotone_Curves.htm that should work
> just as
> > well for these C86 curves.
> >
> > In general, my printing information is indexed at
> > http://home1.gte.net/res09aij/index.htm
> >
> > Good luck.
> >
> > Paul
> > www.PaulRoark.com
> >
> >
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> > > [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
> Robert
> > > Sent: Sunday, August 21, 2005 4:34 PM
> > > To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> > > Subject: [Digital BW] Paul's C86 EZ Curves - Where are they?
> > >
> > > Where are these C86 curves posted, and what do they do?  I have a C84
> > > and I'd like to try them out.
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > > Robert Ades
> > >
> > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "erutchick2002"
> > > <erutchick@a...> wrote:
> > > > Hi all,
> > > >
> > > > I've been lurking on this board for 3 or 4 years.  My last pass at
> > > > quads was Piezography and Piezotones on a 1160 a few years
> > > > ago.  I do most of my work in color on a 7600, but still like to
> > > > shoot some b/w on occasion.
> > > >
> > > > I picked up a C86 a few months ago and test -printed a bit, with
> > > > satisfactory results.
> > > >
> > > > For some reason, I'm not able to download the MIS EZ curves
> > > > that Paul posted.
> > > >
> > > > I'm running a Mac G3 on OS 9.2, and my mouse does not have a
> > > > right-click option.
> > > >
> > > > Any pointers?  Thanks!
> > > >
> > > > Ellen Rutchick
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other
> resources as
> > > they are often being updated.
> > >
> > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> > >
> > > If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you
> wish to
> > > unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting
> this same
> > > page.
> > >
> > > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages
> to keep
> > > them short.
> > > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
> flames.
> > > Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
> > > membership without notice.
> > > - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of
> digital B&W
> > > printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be
> removed from
> > > the membership.
> > > - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
> > > guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group
> Owner
> > > and Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files
> > > section:
> > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> > >
> > > BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE
> PRINT
> > > YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND
> > > "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE
> LIABLE TO
> > > YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR
> > > EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF
> > > PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE
> > > "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE
> BEEN
> > > ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i)
> THE USE
> > > OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii)
> > > UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR
> DATA; (iii)
> > > STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
> > > YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE
> > > PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> > >
> > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
> they are often being updated.
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
> page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
> Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
> membership without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
> printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from
> the membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner
> and Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files
> section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> 
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
> YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND
> "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO
> YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR
> EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF
> PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE
> "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN
> ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE
> OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii)
> UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii)
> STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
> YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE
> PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
> 
>

Paul Roark wrote:

>
>
>
>The question as to what is "consistent and true to proper B&W printing" is
>more complex.  There perhaps is no such thing.  However, here are some of my
>thoughts on the subject.
>
>Recently and for newer printers, I've moved to inksets that can be
>controlled via the Epson driver sliders as well as with Photoshop curves and
>rips like QTR and IJC.  The driver sliders don't give a lot of control, but
>if the B&W inkset is made for them, the print quality with minimal slider
>controls is often, on average, the best there is.  
>
>As one moves away from the Epson driver and all the jets firing, the chances
>of problems start to increase.  In particular, many printers appear to need
>all the jets or "channels" firing to hide what we'd consider printer defects
>that cause microbanding.  The more one pays for a printer, often the more
>likely it'll be built well enough to use radical curves (or Black Only
>printing) that cut out inks.  However, even with 2200s if curves cut out
>some "colors" or jets, a certain percentage of them will show some
>microbanding or other artifacts.  So, for those who get a printer that is
>marginal and can't handle the curves or other options we often talk about,
>being able to print with the Epson driver at near default settings is a good
>fallback that may well save their investment. 
>
>Also, being able to just print with the Epson driver at near default
>settings and get a good B&W print is much needed positive reinforcement for
>many.  The frequent posters on this forum are technically savvy and much
>more tolerant of the problems that might be encountered as one moves away
>from the Epson driver than is the typical B&W photographer who simply wants
>to output his or her digital files.  Part of my "mission" is to get top
>notch output to these more typical B&W photographers (including those with
>limited budgets).
> 
>At any rate, Epson doesn't make its systems for people like most of the
>posters here who use non-Epson inks and/or specialized workflows.  So, we're
>often asking our printers to do things they were never designed to do.
>
>So, what is "consistent and true to proper B&W printing"?  There is probably
>no such thing, but Epson would say buy a 2400.  In this printer they've
>integrated "B&W" printing into the driver, where they also have all the ink
>jets firing -- probably for the same reason I use that position. 
>
>On the other hand, a C86 will make more lightfast B&W for a fraction the
>cost of a 2400.  And with the R200, I hope to have not only more lightfast
>but also smoother B&W output at the $69 printer level.  
>
>And you can be sure that the approach I use for the 2400 I now have will
>have a mode that takes advantage of the Epson driver and has all the jets
>firing.  On top of this will be curves and rip controls that get more out of
>the system, but the starting point is the "rip" that was an integral part of
>the printer design -- the Epson driver at near default settings.
>
>I'm not sure the 2200 is being made any more.  If there are good ones
>available for cheap, it may still be a good way to go, but if one has to pay
>a price close to the 2400, I'd recommend stepping up to the 2400.
>
>Hope this rambling post helps.
>
>Paul
>www.PaulRoark.com 
>
>  
>
Paul,

I had written a related rambling for another thread but kept it in 
draft.  Now that I see that your view on this is close to my thoughts I 
like to add it here.

In general: When I think of the comments in the B&W list about what 
flaws people find in their setup I often wonder whether we keep enough 
"buffer" in the concepts. Given the complaints about banding, the 
visibility of dots, the linearity of tones, the detail in shadows one 
also wonders whether there's a crowd here that's 10x more quality 
conscious than in color printing or we are doing things wrong. Let's 
assume both is happening. We almost forgot that the printers are 
originally CMY(K) mixing color printers. The task of quad printers 
should be much easier in essence: black squirted in a nice way. We could 
split that black in 3 dilutions but  we already use 4,6,7 and the same 
number of heads. I'm aware that the K head in a CMYK printer doesn't 
have to do the full range from 0-100% grey steps but usually it kicks in 
at 50-60% depending on the black generation setting and does that part 
up to 100%, usually with some CMY composite grey assistance. That's 40% 
of the range. In a K7 setup one head does roughly 14% of the range but 
it has a sole responsibility for that small part of the range. If it 
changes in time, if it was a bit sub standard from the start, it still 
has to do that part of the ramp on its own. At the same time it isn't 
really equiped for the task as we didn't change the weaving-dithering 
patterns it has to lay down, it lays down 1/3-1/4 of a color printing 
pattern that will never get the other parts. In color printing that 
happens as well but not from 0-100% everywhere and we are less sensitive 
to hue changes in a color print than to tone changes. Much can be 
compensated by nozzle quantity, higher printer resolutions (= more 
passes which in a way resembles more nozzles but not entirely), 
linearisation, wider overlaps in partioning. Less problems occur with 
pro models as their droplet size and overall construction is more 
directed to consistency. The last means that linearisation also keeps 
longer in time. For the desktop models with their lower nozzle numbers, 
very fine but less consistent droplet size, overall more "plastic" 
construction including the small cart feeding I think it may be wise to 
add even more buffer in the quad setups. Part of that buffer was I think 
available in Paul's early PS curves as it relied more on mixing than the 
typical RIP partioning. It lacks the linearisation but with prebaked 
curves that aren't adjusted to the user's printer there is no place for 
that either. (QTR's profile creation could be used though to get that 
right for the PS curves + the Epson driver). A step from the curves to 
RIP partioning by a desktop model user could be a disappointment when 
his printer shows its flaws faster with what looks like a superior 
software setup. I do not keep a record of complaints but my gut feeling 
is that there's a tendency to stretch the capacity of the hard- and 
software while it doesn't give us nice B&W prints all the time. Using 
two quad ranges, longer overlaps in partioning, suitable monotone 
dithering/weaving, less toners,  this all could create some buffer.

Ernst

Paul, Ernst,
As usual, you have provided some thought provoking comments.  I spent a
month evaluating RIPs for the 2200, expecting to find “superior” results.
Heck, for ~$1000, it should be, right?  For color images, I found the Epson
driver with a large patch-count profile was hard to beat.  I found more
differences in the profiling tool results than I did in the micro-structure
of the printed image.  After looking at matte black with a 100 power
binocular microscope, I wish someone had made the integrating sphere
measurement that Steve Kale requested; it looks like a black sky full of
stars.

Could some List subscribers be “10x more quality conscious than in color
print”, maybe.  The more I look at a red/black ramp from a 4800, which is a
damn good inkjet, the more disgusted I get.  IMO, it’s a base reason inkjet
has not cleared itself of the “low-quality” stigma; it’s just getting harder
to see.  Encouraging however, is a recent Tyler Boley print, which looks
like perfection to my eyes; I can’t imagine at what level he is working to
improve his work.

I foresee (hope for) a mems technology development that will allow mixing
inks within the printhead.  For example, there are people working on clog
removal designs that might be adapted to function as ink valves.  Such a
development could result in a new level of print quality that did not depend
so much on dither algorithms.  Maybe this was the model for K7, lacking such
a printhead?  Of course inksets will still need to be somewhat matched to
the desired image gamut.  IIRC, they had to weaken the yellow when they
added blue/red to the r800/f1800 to keep the profile performance manageable.
I’m looking forward to Clayton’s next article on UTx3 with anticipation, as
it will discuss advantages and shortcomings discovered along the toner
formulation path.  As I play with the r200 and UT7, I hope to incorporate
your thoughts while finding my direction in printmaking.

Best regards,
John Moody

-----Original Message-----
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Ernst
Dinkla
Sent: Tuesday, August 23, 2005 4:16 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Paul's C86 EZ Curves - Where are they?

Paul Roark wrote:

>
>
>
>The question as to what is "consistent and true to proper B&W printing" is
>more complex.  There perhaps is no such thing.  However, here are some of
my
>thoughts on the subject.
>
>Recently and for newer printers, I've moved to inksets that can be
>controlled via the Epson driver sliders as well as with Photoshop curves
and
>rips like QTR and IJC.  The driver sliders don't give a lot of control, but
>if the B&W inkset is made for them, the print quality with minimal slider
>controls is often, on average, the best there is.
>
>As one moves away from the Epson driver and all the jets firing, the
chances
>of problems start to increase.  In particular, many printers appear to need
>all the jets or "channels" firing to hide what we'd consider printer
defects
>that cause microbanding.  The more one pays for a printer, often the more
>likely it'll be built well enough to use radical curves (or Black Only
>printing) that cut out inks.  However, even with 2200s if curves cut out
>some "colors" or jets, a certain percentage of them will show some
>microbanding or other artifacts.  So, for those who get a printer that is
>marginal and can't handle the curves or other options we often talk about,
>being able to print with the Epson driver at near default settings is a
good
>fallback that may well save their investment.
>
>Also, being able to just print with the Epson driver at near default
>settings and get a good B&W print is much needed positive reinforcement for
>many.  The frequent posters on this forum are technically savvy and much
>more tolerant of the problems that might be encountered as one moves away
>from the Epson driver than is the typical B&W photographer who simply wants
>to output his or her digital files.  Part of my "mission" is to get top
>notch output to these more typical B&W photographers (including those with
>limited budgets).
>
>At any rate, Epson doesn't make its systems for people like most of the
>posters here who use non-Epson inks and/or specialized workflows.  So,
we're
>often asking our printers to do things they were never designed to do.
>
>So, what is "consistent and true to proper B&W printing"?  There is
probably
>no such thing, but Epson would say buy a 2400.  In this printer they've
>integrated "B&W" printing into the driver, where they also have all the ink
>jets firing -- probably for the same reason I use that position.
>
>On the other hand, a C86 will make more lightfast B&W for a fraction the
>cost of a 2400.  And with the R200, I hope to have not only more lightfast
>but also smoother B&W output at the $69 printer level.
>
>And you can be sure that the approach I use for the 2400 I now have will
>have a mode that takes advantage of the Epson driver and has all the jets
>firing.  On top of this will be curves and rip controls that get more out
of
>the system, but the starting point is the "rip" that was an integral part
of
>the printer design -- the Epson driver at near default settings.
>
>I'm not sure the 2200 is being made any more.  If there are good ones
>available for cheap, it may still be a good way to go, but if one has to
pay
>a price close to the 2400, I'd recommend stepping up to the 2400.
>
>Hope this rambling post helps.
>
>Paul
>www.PaulRoark.com
>
>
>
Paul,

I had written a related rambling for another thread but kept it in
draft.  Now that I see that your view on this is close to my thoughts I
like to add it here.

In general: When I think of the comments in the B&W list about what
flaws people find in their setup I often wonder whether we keep enough
"buffer" in the concepts. Given the complaints about banding, the
visibility of dots, the linearity of tones, the detail in shadows one
also wonders whether there's a crowd here that's 10x more quality
conscious than in color printing or we are doing things wrong. Let's
assume both is happening. We almost forgot that the printers are
originally CMY(K) mixing color printers. The task of quad printers
should be much easier in essence: black squirted in a nice way. We could
split that black in 3 dilutions but  we already use 4,6,7 and the same
number of heads. I'm aware that the K head in a CMYK printer doesn't
have to do the full range from 0-100% grey steps but usually it kicks in
at 50-60% depending on the black generation setting and does that part
up to 100%, usually with some CMY composite grey assistance. That's 40%
of the range. In a K7 setup one head does roughly 14% of the range but
it has a sole responsibility for that small part of the range. If it
changes in time, if it was a bit sub standard from the start, it still
has to do that part of the ramp on its own. At the same time it isn't
really equiped for the task as we didn't change the weaving-dithering
patterns it has to lay down, it lays down 1/3-1/4 of a color printing
pattern that will never get the other parts. In color printing that
happens as well but not from 0-100% everywhere and we are less sensitive
to hue changes in a color print than to tone changes. Much can be
compensated by nozzle quantity, higher printer resolutions (= more
passes which in a way resembles more nozzles but not entirely),
linearisation, wider overlaps in partioning. Less problems occur with
pro models as their droplet size and overall construction is more
directed to consistency. The last means that linearisation also keeps
longer in time. For the desktop models with their lower nozzle numbers,
very fine but less consistent droplet size, overall more "plastic"
construction including the small cart feeding I think it may be wise to
add even more buffer in the quad setups. Part of that buffer was I think
available in Paul's early PS curves as it relied more on mixing than the
typical RIP partioning. It lacks the linearisation but with prebaked
curves that aren't adjusted to the user's printer there is no place for
that either. (QTR's profile creation could be used though to get that
right for the PS curves + the Epson driver). A step from the curves to
RIP partioning by a desktop model user could be a disappointment when
his printer shows its flaws faster with what looks like a superior
software setup. I do not keep a record of complaints but my gut feeling
is that there's a tendency to stretch the capacity of the hard- and
software while it doesn't give us nice B&W prints all the time. Using
two quad ranges, longer overlaps in partioning, suitable monotone
dithering/weaving, less toners,  this all could create some buffer.

Ernst





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