Yahoo Groups archive

Digital BW, The Print

Index last updated: 2026-04-28 22:56 UTC

Thread

Weak blacks with UT7 PK and PKN

Weak blacks with UT7 PK and PKN

2005-09-09 by Jonathan Traupman

I've been doing B&W printing with a 2200 and the UT7 inks for about a
year now and have been getting great results on matte papers with
Eboni black. I drive the printer with Quadtone RIP and build most of
my paper profiles myself with a Noritsu DM-201 densitometer.

However, I've had very limited success with printing on glossy and
semi-gloss media. The biggest problem I've encountered is that the MIS
Photo Black ink is simply not very dense. 

For example, I'm trying to create a QTR profile for Epson Premium
Semigloss paper. If I print the QTR ink limit file in calibration mode
with all limits set to 100%, the density of the 100% Photo Black patch
is only around 1.9. This is weaker than the densities of the Dark Warm
Gray (2.1) and Dark Cool Gray (2.2) 100% patches. I've actually gotten
better results from profiles that just use the gray inks than from
ones that use PK and the grays, though neither looked particularly great.

I recently ordered a bottle of the "experimental" PKN Photo Black
Neutral ink since MIS claims it has a higher Dmax than regular PK.
However, I neither noticed nor measured any appreciable increase in
density, at least on the Premium Semigloss paper. It is a more neutral
black, however.

So, is this normal behavior for the MIS Photo Blacks? With the Epson
UC Photo Black, I routinely got densities of 2.2+ with this paper. It
just seems odd that MIS's Photo Blacks would be this weak, when their
grays clearly indicate that they can make a denser ink.

My search through the archives yielded little info on this topic, but
it does seem that densities around 1.9 are what people have reported
in the past for these inks. Is this true across papers, or is the
Premium Semigloss just a particularly bad choice for the MIS inks?

The only potential problem that I can imagine with my setup is that I
have put the PK ink in a light black cartridge and am using it in that
position, because QTR allows me to control which black to use in
software, and I have no need for the "Custom Light Black" that usually
goes there because I'm not using the Epson driver. Perhaps the light
black position in the print had incapable of laying down as much ink
as the black position, but I've never heard mention of this.

I've already tried asking MIS about this, both on their forums and to
their tech support, but received no response.

Any help would appreciated.

-Jon

RE: [Digital BW] Weak blacks with UT7 PK and PKN

2005-09-09 by John Moody

Is the nozzle check perfect?

John
Show quoted textHide quoted text
-----Original Message-----
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Jonathan
Traupman
Sent: Friday, September 09, 2005 3:27 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] Weak blacks with UT7 PK and PKN


The biggest problem I've encountered is that the MIS
Photo Black ink is simply not very dense.




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

RE: [Digital BW] Weak blacks with UT7 PK and PKN

2005-09-09 by Paul Roark

You'll notice that I generate black with the 2 dark grays.  It generally is
better than at least the old PK.  I think there are several reasons for
this.  It allows the tone to be controlled, it has less gloss differential,
and perhaps 2 jets firing gets better coverage.

One reason the MIS PK did not do well was that it dulled down too much.  My
mixing indicates that the old MIS PK actually had more pigment in it than
the Epson PK.  In fact, it probably had too much pigment.  That may have
contributed to the dulling down problem and be the reason the dark grays did
better -- they have more base that does a better job of coating the carbon.
This is one area where the Epson PK acrylic-coated particles paid off
significantly.

Some of us have tried the Epson PK in an otherwise MIS UT inkset.  However,
what we've found is that the transition from the un-coated to coated
particles is visible and gives a rough look to the shadows.

The new MIS PK appears to significantly address the dulling-down problem.
The new base, in effect, coats the particles much better.  I have not had an
opportunity to test the new PK on various papers, but samples I have appear
to retain their gloss quite well. 

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
> Jonathan Traupman
> Sent: Thursday, September 08, 2005 11:27 PM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Digital BW] Weak blacks with UT7 PK and PKN
> 
> I've been doing B&W printing with a 2200 and the UT7 inks for about a
> year now and have been getting great results on matte papers with
> Eboni black. I drive the printer with Quadtone RIP and build most of
> my paper profiles myself with a Noritsu DM-201 densitometer.
> 
> However, I've had very limited success with printing on glossy and
> semi-gloss media. The biggest problem I've encountered is that the MIS
> Photo Black ink is simply not very dense.
> 
> For example, I'm trying to create a QTR profile for Epson Premium
> Semigloss paper. If I print the QTR ink limit file in calibration mode
> with all limits set to 100%, the density of the 100% Photo Black patch
> is only around 1.9. This is weaker than the densities of the Dark Warm
> Gray (2.1) and Dark Cool Gray (2.2) 100% patches. I've actually gotten
> better results from profiles that just use the gray inks than from
> ones that use PK and the grays, though neither looked particularly great.
> 
> I recently ordered a bottle of the "experimental" PKN Photo Black
> Neutral ink since MIS claims it has a higher Dmax than regular PK.
> However, I neither noticed nor measured any appreciable increase in
> density, at least on the Premium Semigloss paper. It is a more neutral
> black, however.
> 
> So, is this normal behavior for the MIS Photo Blacks? With the Epson
> UC Photo Black, I routinely got densities of 2.2+ with this paper. It
> just seems odd that MIS's Photo Blacks would be this weak, when their
> grays clearly indicate that they can make a denser ink.
> 
> My search through the archives yielded little info on this topic, but
> it does seem that densities around 1.9 are what people have reported
> in the past for these inks. Is this true across papers, or is the
> Premium Semigloss just a particularly bad choice for the MIS inks?
> 
> The only potential problem that I can imagine with my setup is that I
> have put the PK ink in a light black cartridge and am using it in that
> position, because QTR allows me to control which black to use in
> software, and I have no need for the "Custom Light Black" that usually
> goes there because I'm not using the Epson driver. Perhaps the light
> black position in the print had incapable of laying down as much ink
> as the black position, but I've never heard mention of this.
> 
> I've already tried asking MIS about this, both on their forums and to
> their tech support, but received no response.
> 
> Any help would appreciated.
> 
> -Jon
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
> they are often being updated.
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
> page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
> Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
> membership without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
> printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from
> the membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner
> and Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files
> section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> 
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
> YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND
> "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO
> YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR
> EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF
> PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE
> "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN
> ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE
> OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii)
> UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii)
> STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
> YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE
> PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
> 
>

Re: Weak blacks with UT7 PK and PKN

2005-09-09 by ccolbertbw

One other point is that the 100% patches are rarely the darkest. beyond some
point the density often decreases. You really need to print the file calibration
page and find the best ink limit. I have seen best ink limits as low as 45%.
PKN really can get up above 2.3 on many papers. I have not tried semigloss.

costa


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Jonathan Traupman" <jont@c...> 
wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> I've been doing B&W printing with a 2200 and the UT7 inks for about a
> year now and have been getting great results on matte papers with
> Eboni black. I drive the printer with Quadtone RIP and build most of
> my paper profiles myself with a Noritsu DM-201 densitometer.
> 
> However, I've had very limited success with printing on glossy and
> semi-gloss media. The biggest problem I've encountered is that the MIS
> Photo Black ink is simply not very dense. 
> 
> For example, I'm trying to create a QTR profile for Epson Premium
> Semigloss paper. If I print the QTR ink limit file in calibration mode
> with all limits set to 100%, the density of the 100% Photo Black patch
> is only around 1.9. This is weaker than the densities of the Dark Warm
> Gray (2.1) and Dark Cool Gray (2.2) 100% patches. I've actually gotten
> better results from profiles that just use the gray inks than from
> ones that use PK and the grays, though neither looked particularly great.
> 
> I recently ordered a bottle of the "experimental" PKN Photo Black
> Neutral ink since MIS claims it has a higher Dmax than regular PK.
> However, I neither noticed nor measured any appreciable increase in
> density, at least on the Premium Semigloss paper. It is a more neutral
> black, however.
> 
> So, is this normal behavior for the MIS Photo Blacks? With the Epson
> UC Photo Black, I routinely got densities of 2.2+ with this paper. It
> just seems odd that MIS's Photo Blacks would be this weak, when their
> grays clearly indicate that they can make a denser ink.
> 
> My search through the archives yielded little info on this topic, but
> it does seem that densities around 1.9 are what people have reported
> in the past for these inks. Is this true across papers, or is the
> Premium Semigloss just a particularly bad choice for the MIS inks?
> 
> The only potential problem that I can imagine with my setup is that I
> have put the PK ink in a light black cartridge and am using it in that
> position, because QTR allows me to control which black to use in
> software, and I have no need for the "Custom Light Black" that usually
> goes there because I'm not using the Epson driver. Perhaps the light
> black position in the print had incapable of laying down as much ink
> as the black position, but I've never heard mention of this.
> 
> I've already tried asking MIS about this, both on their forums and to
> their tech support, but received no response.
> 
> Any help would appreciated.
> 
> -Jon

Re: Weak blacks with UT7 PK and PKN

2005-09-09 by kenstrain2000

I have been using one batch of MIS PK purchased about 6 weeks ago
(never used it before) and was quite unhappy with DMAX on any paper:
I tried 3 "microceramic" types, at any ink coverage.  (I do not use
QTR so far, but tryed the calibration process once to see how it
works. My scanner is not good enough for linearisation, but
calibration patches allow very rough density assessments.)  I am not
reaching D=2 on an epson 1270, ever.  
FS-N dark greys are denser, and I have used Paul's curves that do not
use the black (very slightly modified for one reason or another) to
get excellent results. 
The change in ink base makes it difficult to know what to do, and
whether the PK batch was worse than usual or if we (who get weak PK
blacks) have another problem 9and could still have it with the new
base).  Paul's explanation of pigment overload seems plausible, but I
wonder if there is something else going on too, in the case of the low
density we see as it seems to contradict other posts of PK
performance.

My only regret is that I got a pint of PK with the old base - I have
no idea what it is good for (well it does ~OK in my colour gloss
printer but I won't say more about that here).

Ken


> > semi-gloss media. The biggest problem I've encountered is that
the MIS
> > Photo Black ink is simply not very dense.

Re: [Digital BW] Weak blacks with UT7 PK and PKN

2005-09-09 by Jonathan Traupman

Thanks for the quick answer. At least I know it's not something
specific to my setup. 

What exactly do you mean by old and new PK? Is the new PK the ink they
are selling as PKN? Or is it simply a new formulation of their regular
UT7 PK? My current bottle of PK was purchased in January, would that
make it the old or new PK?

I'm going to play around with it a bit more this weekend. I also have
the GLOP loaded in the yellow position to experiment with. 

-Jon


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark"
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> You'll notice that I generate black with the 2 dark grays.  It
generally is
> better than at least the old PK.  I think there are several reasons for
> this.  It allows the tone to be controlled, it has less gloss
differential,
> and perhaps 2 jets firing gets better coverage.
> 
> One reason the MIS PK did not do well was that it dulled down too
much.  My
> mixing indicates that the old MIS PK actually had more pigment in it
than
> the Epson PK.  In fact, it probably had too much pigment.  That may have
> contributed to the dulling down problem and be the reason the dark
grays did
> better -- they have more base that does a better job of coating the
carbon.
> This is one area where the Epson PK acrylic-coated particles paid off
> significantly.
> 
> Some of us have tried the Epson PK in an otherwise MIS UT inkset. 
However,
> what we've found is that the transition from the un-coated to coated
> particles is visible and gives a rough look to the shadows.
> 
> The new MIS PK appears to significantly address the dulling-down
problem.
> The new base, in effect, coats the particles much better.  I have
not had an
> opportunity to test the new PK on various papers, but samples I have
appear
> to retain their gloss quite well. 
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com 
> 
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> > [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
> > Jonathan Traupman
> > Sent: Thursday, September 08, 2005 11:27 PM
> > To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [Digital BW] Weak blacks with UT7 PK and PKN
> > 
> > I've been doing B&W printing with a 2200 and the UT7 inks for about a
> > year now and have been getting great results on matte papers with
> > Eboni black. I drive the printer with Quadtone RIP and build most of
> > my paper profiles myself with a Noritsu DM-201 densitometer.
> > 
> > However, I've had very limited success with printing on glossy and
> > semi-gloss media. The biggest problem I've encountered is that the MIS
> > Photo Black ink is simply not very dense.
> > 
> > For example, I'm trying to create a QTR profile for Epson Premium
> > Semigloss paper. If I print the QTR ink limit file in calibration mode
> > with all limits set to 100%, the density of the 100% Photo Black patch
> > is only around 1.9. This is weaker than the densities of the Dark Warm
> > Gray (2.1) and Dark Cool Gray (2.2) 100% patches. I've actually gotten
> > better results from profiles that just use the gray inks than from
> > ones that use PK and the grays, though neither looked particularly
great.
> > 
> > I recently ordered a bottle of the "experimental" PKN Photo Black
> > Neutral ink since MIS claims it has a higher Dmax than regular PK.
> > However, I neither noticed nor measured any appreciable increase in
> > density, at least on the Premium Semigloss paper. It is a more neutral
> > black, however.
> > 
> > So, is this normal behavior for the MIS Photo Blacks? With the Epson
> > UC Photo Black, I routinely got densities of 2.2+ with this paper. It
> > just seems odd that MIS's Photo Blacks would be this weak, when their
> > grays clearly indicate that they can make a denser ink.
> > 
> > My search through the archives yielded little info on this topic, but
> > it does seem that densities around 1.9 are what people have reported
> > in the past for these inks. Is this true across papers, or is the
> > Premium Semigloss just a particularly bad choice for the MIS inks?
> > 
> > The only potential problem that I can imagine with my setup is that I
> > have put the PK ink in a light black cartridge and am using it in that
> > position, because QTR allows me to control which black to use in
> > software, and I have no need for the "Custom Light Black" that usually
> > goes there because I'm not using the Epson driver. Perhaps the light
> > black position in the print had incapable of laying down as much ink
> > as the black position, but I've never heard mention of this.
> > 
> > I've already tried asking MIS about this, both on their forums and to
> > their tech support, but received no response.
> > 
> > Any help would appreciated.
> > 
> > -Jon
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other
resources as
> > they are often being updated.
> > 
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> > 
> > If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you
wish to
> > unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting
this same
> > page.
> > 
> > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages
to keep
> > them short.
> > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
flames.
> > Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
> > membership without notice.
> > - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of
digital B&W
> > printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be
removed from
> > the membership.
> > - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
> > guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group
Owner
> > and Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files
> > section:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> > 
> > BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE
PRINT
> > YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND
> > "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE
LIABLE TO
> > YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR
> > EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF
> > PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE
> > "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE
BEEN
> > ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i)
THE USE
> > OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii)
> > UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR
DATA; (iii)
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> > STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
> > YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE
> > PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> > 
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >

Re: Weak blacks with UT7 PK and PKN

2005-09-09 by Jonathan Traupman

I printed the "Ink Separation.psd" file that has the 7 21-step wedges
on it. With this paper, 100% was the densest for all the inks,
although the density of PKN didn't really increase much after about
65%, which was around 1.85 or so. In the actual profile, I'll probably
set the black limit to around 70% but with a BOOST_K=100 to get the
darkest possible full blacks.

With which papers have you seen the best Dmax with PKN? I'm probably
going to pick up some Premium Glossy to experiment with this weekend,
and can get others, too.

-Jon


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "ccolbertbw"
<ccolbert@u...> wrote:
> One other point is that the 100% patches are rarely the darkest.
beyond some
> point the density often decreases. You really need to print the file
calibration
> page and find the best ink limit. I have seen best ink limits as low
as 45%.
> PKN really can get up above 2.3 on many papers. I have not tried
semigloss.
> 
> costa
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Jonathan
Traupman" <jont@c...> 
> wrote:
> > I've been doing B&W printing with a 2200 and the UT7 inks for about a
> > year now and have been getting great results on matte papers with
> > Eboni black. I drive the printer with Quadtone RIP and build most of
> > my paper profiles myself with a Noritsu DM-201 densitometer.
> > 
> > However, I've had very limited success with printing on glossy and
> > semi-gloss media. The biggest problem I've encountered is that the MIS
> > Photo Black ink is simply not very dense. 
> > 
> > For example, I'm trying to create a QTR profile for Epson Premium
> > Semigloss paper. If I print the QTR ink limit file in calibration mode
> > with all limits set to 100%, the density of the 100% Photo Black patch
> > is only around 1.9. This is weaker than the densities of the Dark Warm
> > Gray (2.1) and Dark Cool Gray (2.2) 100% patches. I've actually gotten
> > better results from profiles that just use the gray inks than from
> > ones that use PK and the grays, though neither looked particularly
great.
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> > 
> > I recently ordered a bottle of the "experimental" PKN Photo Black
> > Neutral ink since MIS claims it has a higher Dmax than regular PK.
> > However, I neither noticed nor measured any appreciable increase in
> > density, at least on the Premium Semigloss paper. It is a more neutral
> > black, however.
> > 
> > So, is this normal behavior for the MIS Photo Blacks? With the Epson
> > UC Photo Black, I routinely got densities of 2.2+ with this paper. It
> > just seems odd that MIS's Photo Blacks would be this weak, when their
> > grays clearly indicate that they can make a denser ink.
> > 
> > My search through the archives yielded little info on this topic, but
> > it does seem that densities around 1.9 are what people have reported
> > in the past for these inks. Is this true across papers, or is the
> > Premium Semigloss just a particularly bad choice for the MIS inks?
> > 
> > The only potential problem that I can imagine with my setup is that I
> > have put the PK ink in a light black cartridge and am using it in that
> > position, because QTR allows me to control which black to use in
> > software, and I have no need for the "Custom Light Black" that usually
> > goes there because I'm not using the Epson driver. Perhaps the light
> > black position in the print had incapable of laying down as much ink
> > as the black position, but I've never heard mention of this.
> > 
> > I've already tried asking MIS about this, both on their forums and to
> > their tech support, but received no response.
> > 
> > Any help would appreciated.
> > 
> > -Jon

RE: [Digital BW] Weak blacks with UT7 PK and PKN

2005-09-09 by Paul Roark

Jon,

 
> What exactly do you mean by old and new PK? Is the new PK the ink they
> are selling as PKN? Or is it simply a new formulation of their regular
> UT7 PK? My current bottle of PK was purchased in January, would that
> make it the old or new PK?

The entire line of MIS UC-equivalent and UT inks has been upgraded.  The new
base I've mentioned is also in the LK and PK.  (No change to Eboni.) I have
not even obtained a full set yet.  If the ink is older than one month, it's
probably the old base.  

See the MIS news post at:

http://inksupply.info/index.php?_a=announcements&_m=details&_i=56

and the link to 

http://www.inksupply.com/arcink_mispro.cfm

where the advantages of the new MIS "Pro" inks are described.

These include the following claims: "Higher gloss and reflectivity, less
bronzing," & "Elimination of gloss-differential. Colors and Blacks have the
same reflectivity."

While the gloss is still not quite as high as the acrylic-coated, latest
Epson UC pigs, it's much better than the older MIS inks, especially as it
relates to the PK.  At least that is my impression from the samples I've
seen.  

But, like I said, I have not seen the full set yet myself.  I have some new
UT 2 samples of the light inks, where the old base was most evident.  There
what I notice most, since there never was a problem with dulling down, is
the lack of bronzing.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark"
> <paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> > You'll notice that I generate black with the 2 dark grays.  It
> generally is
> > better than at least the old PK.  I think there are several reasons for
> > this.  It allows the tone to be controlled, it has less gloss
> differential,
> > and perhaps 2 jets firing gets better coverage.
> >
> > One reason the MIS PK did not do well was that it dulled down too
> much.  My
> > mixing indicates that the old MIS PK actually had more pigment in it
> than
> > the Epson PK.  In fact, it probably had too much pigment.  That may have
> > contributed to the dulling down problem and be the reason the dark
> grays did
> > better -- they have more base that does a better job of coating the
> carbon.
> > This is one area where the Epson PK acrylic-coated particles paid off
> > significantly.
> >
> > Some of us have tried the Epson PK in an otherwise MIS UT inkset.
> However,
> > what we've found is that the transition from the un-coated to coated
> > particles is visible and gives a rough look to the shadows.
> >
> > The new MIS PK appears to significantly address the dulling-down
> problem.
> > The new base, in effect, coats the particles much better.  I have
> not had an
> > opportunity to test the new PK on various papers, but samples I have
> appear
> > to retain their gloss quite well.
> >
> > Paul
> > www.PaulRoark.com
> >
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> > > [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
> > > Jonathan Traupman
> > > Sent: Thursday, September 08, 2005 11:27 PM
> > > To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> > > Subject: [Digital BW] Weak blacks with UT7 PK and PKN
> > >
> > > I've been doing B&W printing with a 2200 and the UT7 inks for about a
> > > year now and have been getting great results on matte papers with
> > > Eboni black. I drive the printer with Quadtone RIP and build most of
> > > my paper profiles myself with a Noritsu DM-201 densitometer.
> > >
> > > However, I've had very limited success with printing on glossy and
> > > semi-gloss media. The biggest problem I've encountered is that the MIS
> > > Photo Black ink is simply not very dense.
> > >
> > > For example, I'm trying to create a QTR profile for Epson Premium
> > > Semigloss paper. If I print the QTR ink limit file in calibration mode
> > > with all limits set to 100%, the density of the 100% Photo Black patch
> > > is only around 1.9. This is weaker than the densities of the Dark Warm
> > > Gray (2.1) and Dark Cool Gray (2.2) 100% patches. I've actually gotten
> > > better results from profiles that just use the gray inks than from
> > > ones that use PK and the grays, though neither looked particularly
> great.
> > >
> > > I recently ordered a bottle of the "experimental" PKN Photo Black
> > > Neutral ink since MIS claims it has a higher Dmax than regular PK.
> > > However, I neither noticed nor measured any appreciable increase in
> > > density, at least on the Premium Semigloss paper. It is a more neutral
> > > black, however.
> > >
> > > So, is this normal behavior for the MIS Photo Blacks? With the Epson
> > > UC Photo Black, I routinely got densities of 2.2+ with this paper. It
> > > just seems odd that MIS's Photo Blacks would be this weak, when their
> > > grays clearly indicate that they can make a denser ink.
> > >
> > > My search through the archives yielded little info on this topic, but
> > > it does seem that densities around 1.9 are what people have reported
> > > in the past for these inks. Is this true across papers, or is the
> > > Premium Semigloss just a particularly bad choice for the MIS inks?
> > >
> > > The only potential problem that I can imagine with my setup is that I
> > > have put the PK ink in a light black cartridge and am using it in that
> > > position, because QTR allows me to control which black to use in
> > > software, and I have no need for the "Custom Light Black" that usually
> > > goes there because I'm not using the Epson driver. Perhaps the light
> > > black position in the print had incapable of laying down as much ink
> > > as the black position, but I've never heard mention of this.
> > >
> > > I've already tried asking MIS about this, both on their forums and to
> > > their tech support, but received no response.
> > >
> > > Any help would appreciated.
> > >
> > > -Jon
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other
> resources as
> > > they are often being updated.
> > >
> > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> > >
> > > If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you
> wish to
> > > unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting
> this same
> > > page.
> > >
> > > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages
> to keep
> > > them short.
> > > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
> flames.
> > > Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
> > > membership without notice.
> > > - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of
> digital B&W
> > > printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be
> removed from
> > > the membership.
> > > - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
> > > guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group
> Owner
> > > and Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files
> > > section:
> > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> > >
> > > BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE
> PRINT
> > > YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND
> > > "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE
> LIABLE TO
> > > YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR
> > > EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF
> > > PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE
> > > "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE
> BEEN
> > > ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i)
> THE USE
> > > OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii)
> > > UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR
> DATA; (iii)
> > > STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
> > > YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE
> > > PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> > >
> > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
> they are often being updated.
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
> page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
> Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
> membership without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
> printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from
> the membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner
> and Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files
> section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> 
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
> YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND
> "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO
> YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR
> EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF
> PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE
> "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN
> ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE
> OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii)
> UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii)
> STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
> YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE
> PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>

Re: [Digital BW] Weak blacks with UT7 PK and PKN

2005-09-09 by Jonathan Traupman

Cool. I guess I missed that when I ordered the PKN and GLOP last week. 

I have about an ounce or so of each of my UT7 inks left, so by the
time I need a refill, hopefully they'll have the UT sets ready to ship.

-Jon


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark"
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> Jon,
> 
>  
> > What exactly do you mean by old and new PK? Is the new PK the ink they
> > are selling as PKN? Or is it simply a new formulation of their regular
> > UT7 PK? My current bottle of PK was purchased in January, would that
> > make it the old or new PK?
> 
> The entire line of MIS UC-equivalent and UT inks has been upgraded.
 The new
> base I've mentioned is also in the LK and PK.  (No change to Eboni.)
I have
> not even obtained a full set yet.  If the ink is older than one
month, it's
> probably the old base.  
> 
> See the MIS news post at:
> 
> http://inksupply.info/index.php?_a=announcements&_m=details&_i=56
> 
> and the link to 
> 
> http://www.inksupply.com/arcink_mispro.cfm
> 
> where the advantages of the new MIS "Pro" inks are described.
> 
> These include the following claims: "Higher gloss and reflectivity, less
> bronzing," & "Elimination of gloss-differential. Colors and Blacks
have the
> same reflectivity."
> 
> While the gloss is still not quite as high as the acrylic-coated, latest
> Epson UC pigs, it's much better than the older MIS inks, especially
as it
> relates to the PK.  At least that is my impression from the samples I've
> seen.  
> 
> But, like I said, I have not seen the full set yet myself.  I have
some new
> UT 2 samples of the light inks, where the old base was most evident.
 There
> what I notice most, since there never was a problem with dulling
down, is
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> the lack of bronzing.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com

Re: Weak blacks with UT7 PK and PKN

2005-09-09 by ccolbertbw

The papers I have used with PKN are semimatte and Kirkland Glossy.
Does make you wonder if there is something up with the ink. Maybe
someone with a 2200 and/or semigloss  can add their experience. 

Costa

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Jonathan Traupman" <jont@c...> 
wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> I printed the "Ink Separation.psd" file that has the 7 21-step wedges
> on it. With this paper, 100% was the densest for all the inks,
> although the density of PKN didn't really increase much after about
> 65%, which was around 1.85 or so. In the actual profile, I'll probably
> set the black limit to around 70% but with a BOOST_K=100 to get the
> darkest possible full blacks.
> 
> With which papers have you seen the best Dmax with PKN? I'm probably
> going to pick up some Premium Glossy to experiment with this weekend,
> and can get others, too.
> 
> -Jon
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "ccolbertbw"
> <ccolbert@u...> wrote:
> > One other point is that the 100% patches are rarely the darkest.
> beyond some
> > point the density often decreases. You really need to print the file
> calibration
> > page and find the best ink limit. I have seen best ink limits as low
> as 45%.
> > PKN really can get up above 2.3 on many papers. I have not tried
> semigloss.
> > 
> > costa
> > 
> > 
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Jonathan
> Traupman" <jont@c...> 
> > wrote:
> > > I've been doing B&W printing with a 2200 and the UT7 inks for about a
> > > year now and have been getting great results on matte papers with
> > > Eboni black. I drive the printer with Quadtone RIP and build most of
> > > my paper profiles myself with a Noritsu DM-201 densitometer.
> > > 
> > > However, I've had very limited success with printing on glossy and
> > > semi-gloss media. The biggest problem I've encountered is that the MIS
> > > Photo Black ink is simply not very dense. 
> > > 
> > > For example, I'm trying to create a QTR profile for Epson Premium
> > > Semigloss paper. If I print the QTR ink limit file in calibration mode
> > > with all limits set to 100%, the density of the 100% Photo Black patch
> > > is only around 1.9. This is weaker than the densities of the Dark Warm
> > > Gray (2.1) and Dark Cool Gray (2.2) 100% patches. I've actually gotten
> > > better results from profiles that just use the gray inks than from
> > > ones that use PK and the grays, though neither looked particularly
> great.
> > > 
> > > I recently ordered a bottle of the "experimental" PKN Photo Black
> > > Neutral ink since MIS claims it has a higher Dmax than regular PK.
> > > However, I neither noticed nor measured any appreciable increase in
> > > density, at least on the Premium Semigloss paper. It is a more neutral
> > > black, however.
> > > 
> > > So, is this normal behavior for the MIS Photo Blacks? With the Epson
> > > UC Photo Black, I routinely got densities of 2.2+ with this paper. It
> > > just seems odd that MIS's Photo Blacks would be this weak, when their
> > > grays clearly indicate that they can make a denser ink.
> > > 
> > > My search through the archives yielded little info on this topic, but
> > > it does seem that densities around 1.9 are what people have reported
> > > in the past for these inks. Is this true across papers, or is the
> > > Premium Semigloss just a particularly bad choice for the MIS inks?
> > > 
> > > The only potential problem that I can imagine with my setup is that I
> > > have put the PK ink in a light black cartridge and am using it in that
> > > position, because QTR allows me to control which black to use in
> > > software, and I have no need for the "Custom Light Black" that usually
> > > goes there because I'm not using the Epson driver. Perhaps the light
> > > black position in the print had incapable of laying down as much ink
> > > as the black position, but I've never heard mention of this.
> > > 
> > > I've already tried asking MIS about this, both on their forums and to
> > > their tech support, but received no response.
> > > 
> > > Any help would appreciated.
> > > 
> > > -Jon

RE: [Digital BW] Weak blacks with UT7 PK and PKN

2005-09-10 by Daniel Staver

With just PKN I get a dmax of 2.2, but if I add around 60-70% GLOP in the
QTR curve the density increases to 2.3 on Ilford Smooth Pearl and 2.28 on
Epson Premium Semigloss. I'm leaving the prints overnight now and will do
some more readings later today to see if the densities have changed.

They started shipping the new PK last month I think. It has much better dmax
than the previous PK which was extremely weak on many papers. I haven't
measured the new PK yet, but it appears to have similar dmax to PKN. PK is
brown toned, while PKN is neutral. If you already have PKN you won't really
get much benefit from using PK.

--
Daniel Staver
http://daniel.staver.no 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> Thanks for the quick answer. At least I know it's not 
> something specific to my setup. 
> 
> What exactly do you mean by old and new PK? Is the new PK the 
> ink they are selling as PKN? Or is it simply a new 
> formulation of their regular
> UT7 PK? My current bottle of PK was purchased in January, 
> would that make it the old or new PK?
> 
> I'm going to play around with it a bit more this weekend. I 
> also have the GLOP loaded in the yellow position to experiment with.

Move to quarantaine

This moves the raw source file on disk only. The archive index is not changed automatically, so you still need to run a manual refresh afterward.