Digital BW, The Print

I am scanning 35mm negatives with a Nikon 5000.  Though the film is 
squeaky clean to the eye, the scanned images are filled with spots 
and linear scratches.  At 100% view, panel by panel (page 
down/control-page down) I am spending three to four hours spotting 
these images.  The healing brush is a tremendous advantage, though on 
this dual XEON computer with 1 gig of ram it is rather slow, 
requiring hesitation between spots to allow the image to update.  
I've tried spotting at a 50% view and it just isn't good enough 
(spots come back to haunt you, particularly after sharpening) though 
it's much faster.  

A few other related issues:

Digital ICe doesn't work and the BW film, but might it work on the XP-
1 I used later in my career?

I am doing noise reduction (Neat Image) before spotting and 
sharpening much later in the flow.

Any experience or thoughts on all this?

Thanks,
Walt

In my humble opinion, the best digital retouching tool is Photo 
Impact - I'm still using v6.0.  The dust and scratch removal is on a 
local basis, so it is very, very fast.  Wife and I have restored over 
1400 scans of 11x14 A. Aubrey Bodine photographs 
(www.AAubreyBodine.com) - same problem you have, just bigger real 
estate per image.  PS has no retouching tools that I have been able 
to determine do the same task as quickly or painlessly.  This type of 
retouching - dust removal in particular - should not be a global tool 
or requiring masking.  In PhotoImpact, just set the noise removal 
tool's brush to the size and shape you need and whisk it across the 
dust.  They disappear as if blown off the screen.  Very cool.  I 
remove scratches by using the lasso tool to grab a bit of image that 
is similar in tone/grain as the defect and drag it over the defect.  
Kind of like the clone tool, but much more invisible as a repair.  my 
2 cents.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "wwodets" 
<odets@c...> wrote:
> I am scanning 35mm negatives with a Nikon 5000.  Though the film is 
> squeaky clean to the eye, the scanned images are filled with spots 
> and linear scratches.  At 100% view, panel by panel (page 
> down/control-page down) I am spending three to four hours spotting 
> these images.  The healing brush is a tremendous advantage, though 
on 
> this dual XEON computer with 1 gig of ram it is rather slow, 
> requiring hesitation between spots to allow the image to update.  
> I've tried spotting at a 50% view and it just isn't good enough 
> (spots come back to haunt you, particularly after sharpening) 
though 
> it's much faster.  
> 
> A few other related issues:
> 
> Digital ICe doesn't work and the BW film, but might it work on the 
XP-

> 1 I used later in my career?
> 
> I am doing noise reduction (Neat Image) before spotting and 
> sharpening much later in the flow.
> 
> Any experience or thoughts on all this?
> 
> Thanks,
> Walt

The ICE does not work at all on B&W negs. However if
you use Lasersoft Silverfast scanning software there
is a "Remove Dust and Scratches" filter which helps.

My solution is to use fuji color slide film and then
convert to B&W. You get excellent grain structure and
have the full benefit of ICE which in terms of time
savings in the workflow is more than worth the
difference in film cost (plus you have the benefit of
a beautiful color slide.

Hope this helps
Woody Spedden

--- wwodets <odets@...> wrote:


---------------------------------
I am scanning 35mm negatives with a Nikon 5000. 
Though the film is 
squeaky clean to the eye, the scanned images are
filled with spots 
and linear scratches.  At 100% view, panel by panel
(page 
down/control-page down) I am spending three to four
hours spotting 
these images.  The healing brush is a tremendous
advantage, though on 
this dual XEON computer with 1 gig of ram it is rather
slow, 
requiring hesitation between spots to allow the image
to update.  
I've tried spotting at a 50% view and it just isn't
good enough 
(spots come back to haunt you, particularly after
sharpening) though 
it's much faster.  

A few other related issues:

Digital ICe doesn't work and the BW film, but might it
work on the XP-
1 I used later in my career?

I am doing noise reduction (Neat Image) before
spotting and 
sharpening much later in the flow.

Any experience or thoughts on all this?

Thanks,
Walt





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Try setting your history states to 1.  Buy more ram or a new computer.

Best regards,
John Moody

-----Original Message-----
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of wwodets
Sent: Thursday, September 22, 2005 11:54 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] Feedback on dust and scratches?

I am scanning 35mm negatives with a Nikon 5000.  Though the film is
squeaky clean to the eye, the scanned images are filled with spots
and linear scratches.  At 100% view, panel by panel (page
down/control-page down) I am spending three to four hours spotting
these images.  The healing brush is a tremendous advantage, though on
this dual XEON computer with 1 gig of ram it is rather slow,
requiring hesitation between spots to allow the image to update.
I've tried spotting at a 50% view and it just isn't good enough
(spots come back to haunt you, particularly after sharpening) though
it's much faster.

A few other related issues:

Digital ICe doesn't work and the BW film, but might it work on the XP-
1 I used later in my career?

I am doing noise reduction (Neat Image) before spotting and
sharpening much later in the flow.

Any experience or thoughts on all this?

Thanks,
Walt





Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
they are often being updated.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
page.

Please follow these basic guidelines:
- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
membership without notice.
- Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

My little Nikon SCS ED 4000 as do the 2 1/4 versions suck up a lot of
ram for such a small devices. You may want to try setting your ram
allocaton in Photoshop to 90% while you work on this and make sure
nothing else is running in the background (quit all other application
such as web browser etc) and like he said reset your history memory to
one.

Beyond that I have found that I have to clean every singe slide or
piece of film with a good film cleaner and a static free cloth before
working with this device, same as the Imacon really. I use the PEC-12
film cleaner becaue it works great, is archival, and leaves no fogging
or residue like some other cleaners do. Personally I wouldn't dream of
scanning with the Nikon without doing this. It is a hassle but I see
no way around it. I usually hate the digital ice filter because it
wrecks resolution but sometimes its the last resort.

I'm wondering though. If you took a greyscale file, converted it to
RGB, colorized it to a warm value would the digital ice filter work
then? If so you could then easily convert back to greyscale. Probably
not, but I'm not sure.

I would be really nice if they made one of those Kami mounted glass
carriers for the 35mm Nikons. 

John



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "wwodets"
<odets@c...> wrote:

> I am scanning 35mm negatives with a Nikon 5000.  Though the film is 
> squeaky clean to the eye, the scanned images are filled with spots 
> and linear scratches.  At 100% view, panel by panel (page 
> down/control-page down) I am spending three to four hours spotting 
> these images.  The healing brush is a tremendous advantage, though on 
> this dual XEON computer with 1 gig of ram it is rather slow, 
> requiring hesitation between spots to allow the image to update.  
> I've tried spotting at a 50% view and it just isn't good enough 
> (spots come back to haunt you, particularly after sharpening) though 
> it's much faster.  
> 
> A few other related issues:
> 
> Digital ICe doesn't work and the BW film, but might it work on the XP-
> 1 I used later in my career?
> 
> I am doing noise reduction (Neat Image) before spotting and 
> sharpening much later in the flow.
> 
> Any experience or thoughts on all this?
> 
> Thanks,
> Walt

The digital ICE in the LS-8000 works by using an infrared channel to detect
the opaque dust, then blends the surrounding pixels over it.  Pretty cool if
you ask me


Best regards,
John Moody

-----Original Message-----
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of john dean
Sent: Thursday, September 22, 2005 1:26 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Feedback on dust and scratches?

My little Nikon SCS ED 4000 as do the 2 1/4 versions suck up a lot of
ram for such a small devices. You may want to try setting your ram
allocaton in Photoshop to 90% while you work on this and make sure
nothing else is running in the background (quit all other application
such as web browser etc) and like he said reset your history memory to
one.

Beyond that I have found that I have to clean every singe slide or
piece of film with a good film cleaner and a static free cloth before
working with this device, same as the Imacon really. I use the PEC-12
film cleaner becaue it works great, is archival, and leaves no fogging
or residue like some other cleaners do. Personally I wouldn't dream of
scanning with the Nikon without doing this. It is a hassle but I see
no way around it. I usually hate the digital ice filter because it
wrecks resolution but sometimes its the last resort.

I'm wondering though. If you took a greyscale file, converted it to
RGB, colorized it to a warm value would the digital ice filter work
then? If so you could then easily convert back to greyscale. Probably
not, but I'm not sure.

I would be really nice if they made one of those Kami mounted glass
carriers for the 35mm Nikons.

John





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

To stay on list topic, I should have mentioned that the LS-8000 ICE does not
work on BW negatives because they are opaque to the infrared light.

Best regards,
John Moody

-----Original Message-----
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of John Moody
Sent: Thursday, September 22, 2005 1:59 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Re: Feedback on dust and scratches?

The digital ICE in the LS-8000 works by using an infrared channel to detect
the opaque dust, then blends the surrounding pixels over it.  Pretty cool if
you ask me


Best regards,
John Moody





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

A couple of ideas, one slightly expensive, the others not, but a little 
helpful.

First the issue of not running anything other than photoshop . . . couldn't 
agree more. Most of us have so much crap buried in the innards of our 
computers and we seem to forget about it, SO,  . . . consider going to one 
of the big box stores and buying another "low-end" computer . . . $500-600 
ought to do it. Then put all the junk from your present computer on the 
cheapo unit (with the exception of your image-editing-manipulating programs) 
. Wipe your disc entirely on your present computer . . . don't argue, just 
do it . . . you will be presently surprised at how fast your "old" computer 
is when you re-install just the operating system and photoshop. I have three 
computers, one is a desktop (4 years old) with only imaging tools and 1.5g 
of rambus (it is very, very fast), a laptop that follows me around like a 
faithful dog, and an old mac that holds the door open and sometimes plays 
games.

The dust? well, I scan 6x12 on a flatbed and sometimes use polaroid's dust 
removal tool (it is free from them), not the greatest widget in the world, 
but it is passable at times, and I use silverfast's tools. Otherwise, the 
same fastidiousnous that you would have excerised in the darkroom . . . keep 
the local humidity high . . . orchids help, because you need to keep them in 
a tray of stones with water, or one of those really, really, cool 
sooper-dooper zen, stoopid looking "ionic" lamps, you know, the ones with 
the vapour pouring all over your room and your karma (sheeesh!), and a cute 
trick I learned from one of America's best commercial shooters back in the 
day when we were all shooting everything on black plexi 'cause it looked so 
coooool . . . (plexi in a product shot is a nightmare because of the dust 
issue) . . . keep a very small fan (like those silly battery powered 
portable thingys you find stuck to hats or whatever . . . it needs to be a 
WEAK fan) just outside of your critical area. You won't eliminate all the 
dust with those techniques, but instead of twenty or thirty points to 
attack, you might only have four or five . . . a radical improvement.

Not a panacea for your problem, but some medication . . . take two with your 
meal and call me in the morning ;-))

good luck
Paul Aparycki

Walt, 

Even though ICE won't work with silver b&w negs (it works with chromogenic
b&W), here is a fast way to spot with b&w negs in 8 or 16 bit.  In
Photoshop, go to filters>noise>dust&scratches and select some setting such
as a 3 pixel radius and a threshhold of 4 or similar and apply.  Make a
snapshot and discard the dust&scratches state from history.  Then use a
small history brush to spot out.  Also, try spotting after applying your
sharpening, and view your print at its print size or a little larger.  A
final rinse in distilled water with Photoflo and hanging to dry in a
dust-proof drying cabinet or bag (like the Jobo) will probably help the
most.

  -Ken 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
> [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On 
> Behalf Of wwodets
> Sent: Thursday, September 22, 2005 10:54 AM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Digital BW] Feedback on dust and scratches?
> 
> I am scanning 35mm negatives with a Nikon 5000.  Though the 
> film is squeaky clean to the eye, the scanned images are 
> filled with spots and linear scratches.  At 100% view, panel 
> by panel (page down/control-page down) I am spending three to 
> four hours spotting these images.  The healing brush is a 
> tremendous advantage, though on this dual XEON computer with 
> 1 gig of ram it is rather slow, requiring hesitation between 
> spots to allow the image to update.  
> I've tried spotting at a 50% view and it just isn't good 
> enough (spots come back to haunt you, particularly after 
> sharpening) though it's much faster.  
> 
> A few other related issues:
> 
> Digital ICe doesn't work and the BW film, but might it work on the XP-
> 1 I used later in my career?
> 
> I am doing noise reduction (Neat Image) before spotting and 
> sharpening much later in the flow.
> 
> Any experience or thoughts on all this?
> 
> Thanks,
> Walt

Walt,

Some good advice already by others here, I have something critcal to add 
(see 4th paragraph). I have been going through the same thing with an old 
library of over 2500 BW 35mm images (Tri-X) I shot during the 70's  and been 
finding scratches and dust galore!

I don't know if your film is old or newly shot but I have deduced the scratches 
on my old film most likely came from (A) a bulk roller with dust in the felt (B) 
bulk cartridges used one too many times (C) less-than-professional darkroom 
processing (all fingers point to me).

In preparig to print this BW work, often for the very first time, it has been 
shocking to see amount of dust and scratches. At one point I picked up one of 
the few vintage 8x10 prints I still had around and examined it under a loupe 
trying to see if it had ALL these scratches and dust that the negative(s) 
seemed to suddenly now have. And you know what, under the loupe, I did 
find the same spots, though more subdued and not at all visible to the naked 
eye. The digital world brings out the defects much more readily and I've come 
to the conclusion that the old school analog stuff seemed a bit more forgiving 
to the making of BW prints.

Back to solutions: 
I don't believe no one has mentioned it, but if you're going to use the healing 
tool, do it in Photoshop 7.0 *NOT* CS1 (version 8). I don't know if things got 
better in CS2 because I haven't upgraded yet. But the speed of v7 over v8 for 
spotting images using the healing brush is simply blazing. Note I am talking 
about the Mac versions of Photoshop and not sure if the same applies to Win 
versions too.

And as someone else mentioned, it's important to spot at 100% and nothing 
under that. 

I know with Macs that by maxing the RAM out on the machine it will feel like 
you upgraded the processor. Maximum memory will help no matter what 
platform you're using.

Best,
Craig

The digital world brings out the defects much more readily and I've come
to the conclusion that the old school analog stuff seemed a bit more
forgiving
to the making of BW prints.


By the digital world you mean CCD film scanners. Anything that is
fluid mounted will not show this dirt and scratch mess. That is why
the Kami fluid mount carrier did so much for the Nikon medium format
scanners for those who don't have access to drum scanner equipment.
But that is a toppic for the Nikon Yahoo list. Much written about that
there.

John