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2005-10-05 by BKPhoto@aol.com
I need to purchase a new CFS for an Epson 2200 and would appreciate anyone's advice/opinion regarding the systems sold through MIS, Inkjetmall, or Inkjet Republic. Thanks in advance, Bill Kennedy Austin, Texas
2005-10-05 by Greg
--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, BKPhoto@a... wrote: > I need to purchase a new CFS for an Epson 2200 and would appreciate > anyone's advice/opinion regarding the systems sold through MIS, > Inkjetmall, or Inkjet Republic. I recently put an Ink Republic system on my cx6600 all in one, it has been working great for the last few weeks that I've had it. One user at DPReview said he has put 30,000 pages through his c84 equiped with an IR system. That's really asking a lot for an $80 printer. In general, I read of few complaints about the IR systems. Since they haven't put this picture up yet, here is one to look over: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v329/Greg_E/cx6600.jpg
2005-10-05 by BKPhoto@aol.com
Greg- Thanks for the reply. The IR system is very different from the Niagra-type systems I've used in the past. I may give them a try, but would like to hear from anyone else on the list with an opinion. BYW, I couldn't load your link; will try again later through another broswer. Thanks again, Bill Kennedy Austin, Texas
-----Original Message-----
From: Greg <dfaprinting@...>
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wed, 05 Oct 2005 17:50:32 -0000
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: question about CFS systems
--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, BKPhoto@a...
wrote:
> I need to purchase a new CFS for an Epson 2200 and would appreciate
> anyone's advice/opinion regarding the systems sold through MIS,
> Inkjetmall, or Inkjet Republic.
I recently put an Ink Republic system on my cx6600 all in one, it has
been working great for the last few weeks that I've had it. One user at
DPReview said he has put 30,000 pages through his c84 equiped with an
IR system. That's really asking a lot for an $80 printer. In general, I
read of few complaints about the IR systems.
Since they haven't put this picture up yet, here is one to look over:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v329/Greg_E/cx6600.jpg
Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources
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Yahoo! Groups Links2005-10-05 by Al Young
Does anyone use MIS (especially EZ) inks in the Ink Republic system? Al --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, BKPhoto@a... wrote: > I need to purchase a new CFS for an Epson 2200 and would appreciate > anyone's advice/opinion regarding the systems sold through MIS, > Inkjetmall, or Inkjet Republic. I recently put an Ink Republic system on my cx6600 all in one, it has been working great for the last few weeks that I've had it. One user at DPReview said he has put 30,000 pages through his c84 equiped with an IR system. That's really asking a lot for an $80 printer. In general, I read of few complaints about the IR systems. Since they haven't put this picture up yet, here is one to look over: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v329/Greg_E/cx6600.jpg Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as they are often being updated. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page. Please follow these basic guidelines: - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short. - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the membership without notice. - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from the membership. - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files section: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/ BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP. Yahoo! Groups Links
2005-10-05 by Doug
--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, BKPhoto@a... wrote: > I need to purchase a new CFS for an Epson 2200 and would appreciate > anyone's advice/opinion regarding the systems sold through MIS, > Inkjetmall, or Inkjet Republic. > > Thanks in advance, > > Bill Kennedy > Austin, Texas Bill - I've used products from both MIS and Inkjetmall in 1280s, and they are essentially the same product (or were, 3 or 4 years ago when I bought them). Don't know about the 2200. They both worked great for about 18 months, but then (even though there were no obvious inlets for this to happen) the lines from bottle to cart begain developing air bubbles, and ink preceipitates in the lines, and eventually (after about a year and a half of use, which was about a full 4 oz bottle of each ink) the systems both gave up the ghost, clogged irretreviably and had to be discarded. I have a 2200 now, and am experimenting with the UT7 inkset in the individual carts - it will be a while before I go CFS again, as that's a commitment to a lot of one ink set, and I'm sensing that I'm going to be doing some experimenting before I get the ink and tone quality I'm happy with. Doug Wolf By the way - where in Austin? I'm in Circle-C.
2005-10-05 by BKPhoto@aol.com
Doug- Thanks for the post. I've had similar experiences with CFS's, both in my studio and with several units we used in our student digital printing lab. The student lab was not a good solution; we replaced the 13-inch carriage printers with Epson 4000's when they became available, added a 4800 this year, and have never looked back. I'm using Cone's K7 inks in the 2200 at my studio, which is a good fit for several projects I'm working on; hence the renewed interest in CFS. I'll eat through the individual carts much too quickly. The CFS will pay for itself by the time all the printing is done; I'm trying to avoid any known issues, like foaming ink and difficulties with foam-filled carts. I teach photography at St. Edward's Univesity and live west of town, off Bee Caves Road. Bill Kennedy Austin, Texas
-----Original Message----- From: Doug <dwphoto@...> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wed, 05 Oct 2005 19:39:43 -0000 Subject: [Digital BW] Re: question about CFS systems --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, BKPhoto@a... wrote: > I need to purchase a new CFS for an Epson 2200 and would appreciate > anyone's advice/opinion regarding the systems sold through MIS, > Inkjetmall, or Inkjet Republic. > > Thanks in advance, > > Bill Kennedy > Austin, Texas Bill - I've used products from both MIS and Inkjetmall in 1280s, and they are essentially the same product (or were, 3 or 4 years ago when I bought them). Don't know about the 2200. They both worked great for about 18 months, but then (even though there were no obvious inlets for this to happen) the lines from bottle to cart begain developing air bubbles, and ink preceipitates in the lines, and eventually (after about a year and a half of use, which was about a full 4 oz bottle of each ink) the systems both gave up the ghost, clogged irretreviably and had to be discarded. I have a 2200 now, and am experimenting with the UT7 inkset in the individual carts - it will be a while before I go CFS again, as that's a commitment to a lot of one ink set, and I'm sensing that I'm going to be doing some experimenting before I get the ink and tone quality I'm happy with. Doug Wolf By the way - where in Austin? I'm in Circle-C. Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as they are often being updated. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page. Please follow these basic guidelines: - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short. - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the membership without notice. - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from the membership. - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files section: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/ BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP. Yahoo! Groups Links
2005-10-05 by Clayton Jones
Hello Bill, >I'm using Cone's K7 inks in the 2200 at my studio, which is a >good fit for several projects Can you give us a report on your experiences and impressions of K7? User reports have been scarce here. Many thanks. Regards, Clayton Info on black and white digital printing at http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
2005-10-05 by Frank Kolwicz
Bill, I've been using a Niagara III since it first came out (a few months prior to MIS's system, which I would have used, except for the unfortuante delay) and have been satisfied with it. The one problem I've had is, I think, not related to the CFS, but to one of the carts which routinely requires a couple of cleaning cycles to get it going after even a few days lay-off (the other carts can be out of service for a month and give a perfect nozzle check on startup). Once it starts I can print all I want, it's only the startup that's a hassle, but it's not enough of a hassle to change to the new cart I got for it. I even rigged an additional tube to allow switching MK and PK, but it requires the time and effort to un-tape the old cart and re-tape the new one so the whole array of tubes continues to function without getting caught in the carriage; that takes about 10 minutes and I mostly use matte paper, so I seldom switch. Frank
2005-10-06 by Greg
--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Al Young" <acyoung@r...> wrote: > > Does anyone use MIS (especially EZ) inks in the Ink Republic system? > > Al > The inks should not matter. The material that the IR system is made from should resist pretty much any aquaeous inks, and many mild solvent inks. Their "damper" design is about as close to the design that Epson has used in their large format printers, without infringing on Epson's patents. I'm not saying it is perfect, I think there are a couple of places that could be improved, but it does seem to function better than the last one I bought which was from Mediastreet for the garbage Epson 785 printer. If you really wanted to get creative, I would suggest building a system from Epson large format dampers, and a good amount of imagination. If you want to avoid that hassel, just buy the dry system and fill with the ink of your choice like I did. If you really want opinions, go to http://www.dpreview.com/forums and do a quick search of the printers/printing forum, you'll find a lot of people using them and reporting very good results.
2005-10-06 by Ken Carney
Bill, All I can tell you is that I bought the CFS from MIS and it worked great...for six months (now in a landfill). They explicitly told me that it was only for continuous printing and I didn't listen. I went a week or so between printing at times...algae build up in the lines or whatever. My fault. Now I use Epson OEM inks and IP6 and life is good. If I can get a good image. Ken
> -----Original Message----- > From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com > [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On > Behalf Of BKPhoto@... > Sent: Wednesday, October 05, 2005 9:53 AM > To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [Digital BW] question about CFS systems > > I need to purchase a new CFS for an Epson 2200 and would > appreciate anyone's advice/opinion regarding the systems sold > through MIS, Inkjetmall, or Inkjet Republic. > > Thanks in advance, > > Bill Kennedy > Austin, Texas
2005-10-06 by BKPhoto@aol.com
Clayton- So far, my experience with K7 (using a 2200 and the latest QTR) has been very positive. I've worked off the OEM path for many years (including black ink only, thanks Clayton!) and, for the past several years have been doing the majority of my printing with a 7600/UC inks/ColorBurst RIP set-up. I teach digital imaging and printing, so I try to stay as current as time and money will allow. I'm using the Cone profiles and am achieving a very good print-to-display match by opening legacy grayscale files without color management in Photoshop, then assigning Roy's Gray-matt profile to the image for processing. I then converting the profile to Gamma 2.2 as the last step before sending the file to the printer through QTR. I'm not sure about this workflow--a kind of faux soft proofing--but it is working nicely. I haven't yet bothered to tinker with or build custom profiles because the results are too good to mess with. Will do this, though, when I have the time; I want to try the inks on papers not supported by Cone. The K7 prints have exceptionally smooth tonality with excellent local contrast (an issue near and dear to my heart). And I do like the subtle but aesthetically important shifts in image tint that occurs by printing on different paper stock. In short, I'm impressed enough to have decided to use the inks for a couple of important projects. My studio partner, Scott King, and I are considering converting our 7600 to K7 and purchasing a 7800. By the way, I've also been working with a 4800 and the ABW mode is a milestone; it has provided our students with a genuine OEM grayscale printing solution. Working with pigment ink sure has come a long way. I've always been found of Cone's inks and its a smart move for him to see the utility of Roy's RIP. When time allows, I'm looking forward to using the ColorBurst RIP and Bowhaus with these inks. Let me know if there are any specific questions and I'll do my best to provide feedback. I'm deeply appreciative to the contributions of many people on this list; if there is anything I can help with, I'm happy to do so. Guess I'll buy the Niagara III from Inkjetmall. Don't understand why these kits are so expensive. Bill Kennedy Austin, Texas
-----Original Message----- From: Clayton Jones <cj@...> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wed, 05 Oct 2005 22:19:28 -0000 Subject: [Digital BW] Re: question about CFS systems - K7? Hello Bill, >I'm using Cone's K7 inks in the 2200 at my studio, which is a >good fit for several projects Can you give us a report on your experiences and impressions of K7? User reports have been scarce here. Many thanks. Regards, Clayton Info on black and white digital printing at http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as they are often being updated. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page. Please follow these basic guidelines: - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short. - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the membership without notice. - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from the membership. - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files section: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/ BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP. Yahoo! Groups Links
2005-10-06 by john dean
Thank you Bill for that detailed report on K7. If it is working this well for you in the small head 2200 machine, I can only imagine that a carefully linearized 24" or 44" machine will be capable of producing first class, very smooth work. This is really what I've wanted for about 7 years now, a totally neutral set that can be altered by media selection. There have been so few detailed reports of this inkset that I was beginning to wonder what was going on. Do you like the dmax? Where do you teach? By the way, do you know Lawrence McFarland who is on the faculty of the UT photo program? I knew him years ago in Tucson and I own a couple of his best silver prints from that era. Apparently he is doing digital now as he had a Howtek scanner like mine. Never though I'd see the day.... If you know him please say hello and tell him its his fault that Texans are taking over the country. Regards, John Dean Atlanta --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, BKPhoto@a... wrote:
> Clayton- > > So far, my experience with K7 (using a 2200 and the latest QTR) has > been very positive. I've worked off the OEM path for many years > (including black ink only, thanks Clayton!) and, for the past several > years have been doing the majority of my printing with a 7600/UC > inks/ColorBurst RIP set-up. I teach digital imaging and printing, so I > try to stay as current as time and money will allow. > > I'm using the Cone profiles and am achieving a very good > print-to-display match by opening legacy grayscale files without color > management in Photoshop, then assigning Roy's Gray-matt profile to the > image for processing. I then converting the profile to Gamma 2.2 as the > last step before sending the file to the printer through QTR. I'm not > sure about this workflow--a kind of faux soft proofing--but it is > working nicely. I haven't yet bothered to tinker with or build custom > profiles because the results are too good to mess with. Will do this, > though, when I have the time; I want to try the inks on papers not > supported by Cone. > > The K7 prints have exceptionally smooth tonality with excellent local > contrast (an issue near and dear to my heart). And I do like the subtle > but aesthetically important shifts in image tint that occurs by > printing on different paper stock. In short, I'm impressed enough to > have decided to use the inks for a couple of important projects. My > studio partner, Scott King, and I are considering converting our 7600 > to K7 and purchasing a 7800. By the way, I've also been working with a > 4800 and the ABW mode is a milestone; it has provided our students with > a genuine OEM grayscale printing solution. > > Working with pigment ink sure has come a long way. I've always been > found of Cone's inks and its a smart move for him to see the utility of > Roy's RIP. When time allows, I'm looking forward to using the > ColorBurst RIP and Bowhaus with these inks. > > Let me know if there are any specific questions and I'll do my best to > provide feedback. I'm deeply appreciative to the contributions of many > people on this list; if there is anything I can help with, I'm happy to > do so. > > Guess I'll buy the Niagara III from Inkjetmall. Don't understand why > these kits are so expensive. > > Bill Kennedy > Austin, Texas > > -----Original Message----- > From: Clayton Jones <cj@c...> > To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Wed, 05 Oct 2005 22:19:28 -0000 > Subject: [Digital BW] Re: question about CFS systems - K7? > > Hello Bill, > > >I'm using Cone's K7 inks in the 2200 at my studio, which is a > >good fit for several projects > > Can you give us a report on your experiences and impressions of K7? > User reports have been scarce here. Many thanks. > > > Regards, > Clayton > > > Info on black and white digital printing at > http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm > > > > > > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources > as they > are often being updated. > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint > > If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to > unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this > same page. > > Please follow these basic guidelines: > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to > keep them > short. > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames. > Hostile, > aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the membership > without > notice. > - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W > printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed > from the > membership. > - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and > guidelines, > and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and > Moderators. See > "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files section: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/ > > BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE > PRINT YAHOO! > GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND > "MODERATORS" OF > DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY > DIRECT, > INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, > INCLUDING BUT > NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR > OTHER > INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, > THE > PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH > DAMAGES), > RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE > PRINT > YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR > TRANSMISSIONS OR > DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, > THE > PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, > THE > PRINT YAHOO GROUP. > > Yahoo! Groups Links
2005-10-06 by Clayton Jones
Hello Bill, >Let me know if there are any specific questions and I'll do >my best to provide feedback. Thank you, you have answered some of my questions, but I do have a few more. I'm curious about these inks but it's so expensive to try them out. >I've also been working with a 4800 and the ABW mode... >The K7 prints have exceptionally smooth tonality with >excellent local contrast... With respect to smooth tonality and local contrast, can you describe the difference between K3 ABW and K7? Any other comparisons you think are worth mentioning? >And I do like the subtle but aesthetically important shifts in >image tint that occurs by printing on different paper stock. This is one of the things I love about BO printing. There, Eboni ink is moderately warm on PhotoRag (PR), very warm on Premier Hot Press (PHP), and cold (by cold I mean neutral, where black looks black, not brown or blue) on Condor BW (CBW). My understanding is that K7 has enough cool toner added to be neutral on PR. If that is correct, it means that K7 is cooler than Eboni. So how warm can K7 get? What does it look like on PHP? And what happens to it on a cold paper like CBW? How wide a tonal range does K7 have? Related to this, in BO printing where uncoated paper shows through between the dots, the paper color is an active and major contributor to the over all tone, and also adds BO's characteristic luminance. In full ink systems much less bare paper shows so there is a more opaque look and the paper color is subdued a bit (doesn't have as much influence), but some systems are better than others. For example, I am pleased with the luminance of the 2400 K3 prints. It's really quite good for a full ink system, but of course paper color is less influential than in BO. Can you describe how K7 does in these areas? Again re color tone, does K7 shift equally in mid tones and darker zones when going from paper to paper? I guess what I mean is do all the inks shift equally? When changing to other papers, there is more going on than color shifts. There can also be changes in contrast, density and dmax. How do you adjust for these other differences in your workflow? Do the profiles take care of that or must you make some image adjustments? With K3 I find that there are certain critical ABW settings for each paper that eliminate the "colorized" look (where the print has a color tinge to it). I wrestled somewhat unsuccessfully with this with UT7, but with ABW I can make minute adjustments to find a setting that eliminates it. Since K7 must have toners in it, is this ever a problem? Do you feel handicapped not having variable tone control? Thanks very much for any light you can shed on these. Regards, Clayton Info on black and white digital printing at http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
2005-10-06 by BKPhoto@aol.com
John- >>There have been so few detailed reports of this inkset that I was beginning to wonder what was going on. Do you like the dmax? Yes, I do like the dmax. My preliminary tests indicate that the dmax ranges from about 1.5 (Bradford Natural White) to 1.63 on Photo Rag. Just about what you'd expect. Measurements were taken with an EyeOne and the Lab values converted to density using Bruce Lindbloom's Companding Calculator. One note, though: I intend to redo these tests in the near future. I have two EyeOne's and I'm getting slightly different readings from each. I wonder if anyone of this list could comment on that? >>Where do you teach? I teach at St. Edward's University. We have an excellent undergraduate photography program; it's a Bachelor of Arts major in the School of Humanities. We enjoy tremendous support from our administration and have built extensive film-based and digital facilities and curriculum. >>By the way, do you know Lawrence McFarland who is on the faculty of the UT photo program? I knew him years ago in Tucson and I own a couple of his best silver prints from that era. Apparently he is doing digital now as he had a Howtek scanner like mine. Never though I'd see the day.... Yes, I know Lawrence well. My wife, Melissa Miller, is a painter and teaches in the UT fine arts program. Sybil Miller, one of my collegues at SEU, is married to Mark Goodman who teaches at UT with Lawrence. >>If you know him please say hello and tell him its his fault that Texans are taking over the country. I should have known it was his fault! It all makes sense now... Incidentally, the linearization question is a very interesting one. So far, Cone has sidestepped this. I have a few thoughts about this and would appreciate hearing other opinions: the last two generation of Epson photo printers seem to operate, out of the box, to a much higher standard. I assume this is a combination of better software (including ICC profiles and things like ABW) and better hardware (and, to some extent, better media; the K3 inks are better than the K2's, for example). This reduces, but does not elimenate, the need to linearize a printer. The "need" to linearize, it seems to me, is directly connected to how much control the photographer thinks is necessary to produce the kind of prints they find satisfying and successful. I know there has to be a wide range of opinon about the "need" to linearize on this list. From my perspective, linearization is fundamental and any system or approach that does not, or cannot, include or accomodate user linearization is inherently limited. For example, as an inkjet printer ages and it's calibrated state changes you either linearize the machine or must resort to manipulating the image file data to compensation for the machine's drift. So, how do proprietary systems, which now apparently include Cone's K7 profiles for QTR, address this? Bill Kennedy Austin, Texas
2005-10-06 by piezobw
Bill, I did not mean to side-step your question. With QTR curve creation tools - the curve creation happens in two steps. First you make a preliminary profile that identifies the different ink densities. Then the linearization process on top of that makes it appropriate for the paper and printer combination. QTR's curves and its curve creation tools are really nice. However, we put you in a very good situation. Our tool for making these curves is much more sophisticated and uses very advanced technology that we have developed. We could have had Roy make our curves at no cost. Rather we invested to produce something that could better our previous products (which we have a solid track-record of doing.) So we look at this as a collaboration between Piezography products and Roy Harrington's products. One example is that we do much more ink blending with our profiling tool than QTR's curve creator would allow anyone to do. Our profiles are more impervious to small flaws in a printer than to QTR's curves. Our curves are far superior, and the small benefit of being able to "linearize" your own printer isn't as essential when compared to the benefit of using the superior curves created with our technology. If you want the best possible profile go with ours. But try it out for yourself. Print with one of ours. then make one of your own, and post your results to this website. Although our profiles "seem" generic, we think you will be surprised at how well they perform in comparison to the sophisticated tools of QTR. You be the judge and let us know. best regards, Jon Cone The Piezography guy --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, BKPhoto@a... wrote: > John- > > Incidentally, the linearization question is a very interesting one. So > far, Cone has sidestepped this. I have a few thoughts about this and > would appreciate hearing other opinions: the last two generation of > Epson photo printers seem to operate, out of the box, to a much higher > standard. I assume this is a combination of better software (including > ICC profiles and things like ABW) and better hardware (and, to some > extent, better media; the K3 inks are better than the K2's, for > example). This reduces, but does not elimenate, the need to linearize a > printer. The "need" to linearize, it seems to me, is directly connected > to how much control the photographer thinks is necessary to produce the > kind of prints they find satisfying and successful. > > I know there has to be a wide range of opinon about the "need" to > linearize on this list. From my perspective, linearization is > fundamental and any system or approach that does not, or cannot, > include or accomodate user linearization is inherently limited. For > example, as an inkjet printer ages and it's calibrated state changes > you either linearize the machine or must resort to manipulating the > image file data to compensation for the machine's drift. > > So, how do proprietary systems, which now apparently include Cone's K7
> profiles for QTR, address this? > > > > Bill Kennedy > Austin, Texas
2005-10-06 by john dean
That was interesting. But wouldn't the success of this approach depend on the toleraces or the lack of them with different Epson machines? For instance the older machines with K6 might not be so close as the newer units? John . Our curves are far superior, and the
> small benefit of being > able to "linearize" your own printer isn't as essential when compared > to the benefit of > using the superior curves created with our technology. > > If you want the best possible profile go with ours. But try it out > for yourself. Print with one > of ours. then make one of your own, and post your results to this > website. Although our > profiles "seem" generic, we think you will be surprised at how well > they perform in > comparison to the sophisticated tools of QTR. You be the judge and > let us know. > > > best regards, > > > Jon Cone > The Piezography guy > > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, BKPhoto@a... > wrote: > > John- > > > > Incidentally, the linearization question is a very interesting one. > So > > far, Cone has sidestepped this. I have a few thoughts about this > and > > would appreciate hearing other opinions: the last two generation of > > Epson photo printers seem to operate, out of the box, to a much > higher > > standard. I assume this is a combination of better software > (including > > ICC profiles and things like ABW) and better hardware (and, to some > > extent, better media; the K3 inks are better than the K2's, for > > example). This reduces, but does not elimenate, the need to > linearize a > > printer. The "need" to linearize, it seems to me, is directly > connected > > to how much control the photographer thinks is necessary to produce > the > > kind of prints they find satisfying and successful. > > > > I know there has to be a wide range of opinon about the "need" to > > linearize on this list. From my perspective, linearization is > > fundamental and any system or approach that does not, or cannot, > > include or accomodate user linearization is inherently limited. For > > example, as an inkjet printer ages and it's calibrated state > changes > > you either linearize the machine or must resort to manipulating the > > image file data to compensation for the machine's drift. > > > > So, how do proprietary systems, which now apparently include Cone's > K7 > > profiles for QTR, address this? > > > > > > > > Bill Kennedy > > Austin, Texas
2005-10-06 by piezobw
Right now we are profiling only the 2200/4000/7600/9600/R1800. These are good hardware platforms. I will be able to answer your question if and when we make profiles in the QTR curve format for older printers. QTR tools are very good so I hope I have not given the impression that they are not. We have simply taken an approach to insure success out of the box over the widest range of printers within a model. And the result of that is a stellar profile which is also very forgiving to small printer flaws. best, Jon Cone --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "john dean" <deanwork2003@y...> wrote:
> That was interesting. But wouldn't the success of this approach depend > on the toleraces or the lack of them with different Epson machines? > For instance the older machines with K6 might not be so close as the > newer units? > > John > > > > . Our curves are far superior, and the > > small benefit of being > > able to "linearize" your own printer isn't as essential when compared > > to the benefit of > > using the superior curves created with our technology. > > > > If you want the best possible profile go with ours. But try it out > > for yourself. Print with one > > of ours. then make one of your own, and post your results to this > > website. Although our > > profiles "seem" generic, we think you will be surprised at how well > > they perform in > > comparison to the sophisticated tools of QTR. You be the judge and > > let us know. > > > > > > best regards, > > > > > > Jon Cone > > The Piezography guy > > > > > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, BKPhoto@a... > > wrote: > > > John- > > > > > > Incidentally, the linearization question is a very interesting one. > > So > > > far, Cone has sidestepped this. I have a few thoughts about this > > and > > > would appreciate hearing other opinions: the last two generation of > > > Epson photo printers seem to operate, out of the box, to a much > > higher > > > standard. I assume this is a combination of better software > > (including > > > ICC profiles and things like ABW) and better hardware (and, to some > > > extent, better media; the K3 inks are better than the K2's, for > > > example). This reduces, but does not elimenate, the need to > > linearize a > > > printer. The "need" to linearize, it seems to me, is directly > > connected > > > to how much control the photographer thinks is necessary to produce > > the > > > kind of prints they find satisfying and successful. > > > > > > I know there has to be a wide range of opinon about the "need" to > > > linearize on this list. From my perspective, linearization is > > > fundamental and any system or approach that does not, or cannot, > > > include or accomodate user linearization is inherently limited. For > > > example, as an inkjet printer ages and it's calibrated state > > changes > > > you either linearize the machine or must resort to manipulating the > > > image file data to compensation for the machine's drift. > > > > > > So, how do proprietary systems, which now apparently include Cone's > > K7 > > > profiles for QTR, address this? > > > > > > > > > > > > Bill Kennedy > > > Austin, Texas
2005-10-06 by john dean
Right, you've got to stop somewhere. The relatively few of us who might want to use the older machines can use QTR and and Eye One and certainly get the job done till we save up for a more current unit. Thanks, John --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "piezobw" <piezobw@c...> wrote: > Right now we are profiling only the 2200/4000/7600/9600/R1800. These are good > hardware platforms. I will be able to answer your question if and when we make profiles in > the QTR curve format for older printers. QTR tools are very good so I hope I have not given > the impression that they are not. We have simply taken an approach to insure success out > of the box over the widest range of printers within a model. And the result of that is a > stellar profile which is also very forgiving to small printer flaws. > > best, > > Jon Cone > > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "john dean" > <deanwork2003@y...> wrote: > > That was interesting. But wouldn't the success of this approach depend > > on the toleraces or the lack of them with different Epson machines? > > For instance the older machines with K6 might not be so close as the > > newer units? > > > > John > > > > > > > > . Our curves are far superior, and the > > > small benefit of being > > > able to "linearize" your own printer isn't as essential when compared > > > to the benefit of > > > using the superior curves created with our technology. > > > > > > If you want the best possible profile go with ours. But try it out > > > for yourself. Print with one > > > of ours. then make one of your own, and post your results to this > > > website. Although our > > > profiles "seem" generic, we think you will be surprised at how well > > > they perform in > > > comparison to the sophisticated tools of QTR. You be the judge and > > > let us know. > > > > > > > > > best regards, > > > > > > > > > Jon Cone > > > The Piezography guy > > > > > > > > > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, BKPhoto@a... > > > wrote: > > > > John- > > > > > > > > Incidentally, the linearization question is a very interesting one. > > > So > > > > far, Cone has sidestepped this. I have a few thoughts about this > > > and > > > > would appreciate hearing other opinions: the last two generation of > > > > Epson photo printers seem to operate, out of the box, to a much > > > higher > > > > standard. I assume this is a combination of better software > > > (including > > > > ICC profiles and things like ABW) and better hardware (and, to some > > > > extent, better media; the K3 inks are better than the K2's, for > > > > example). This reduces, but does not elimenate, the need to > > > linearize a > > > > printer. The "need" to linearize, it seems to me, is directly > > > connected > > > > to how much control the photographer thinks is necessary to produce > > > the > > > > kind of prints they find satisfying and successful. > > > > > > > > I know there has to be a wide range of opinon about the "need" to > > > > linearize on this list. From my perspective, linearization is > > > > fundamental and any system or approach that does not, or cannot, > > > > include or accomodate user linearization is inherently limited. For > > > > example, as an inkjet printer ages and it's calibrated state > > > changes > > > > you either linearize the machine or must resort to manipulating the > > > > image file data to compensation for the machine's drift. > > > > > > > > So, how do proprietary systems, which now apparently include Cone's
> > > K7 > > > > profiles for QTR, address this? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bill Kennedy > > > > Austin, Texas
2005-10-06 by BKPhoto@aol.com
From: Clayton Jones <cj@...> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thu, 06 Oct 2005 05:09:36 -0000
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: question about CFS systems - K7?
Hello Bill,
>With respect to smooth tonality and local contrast, can you describe
the difference between K3 ABW and K7? Any other comparisons you think
are worth mentioning?
Clayton, I'm not qualified to answer all the questions in your post
but there are a couple of observations and opinions I can pass along.
It seems that many questions about grayscale printing with inkjets are
rooted in two basic and overlapping issues:
1. The color tint of the print and any color cross-over issues that
might be apparent when printing grayscale with color ink sets.
2. The tonal structure of the print. This includes dmax and dmin
("print black" and "print white"), controlling the transition points
between the inks (tonal smoothness), and the issue of local contrast.
I guess we could consider matching the on-screen display of the image
to the print to that list, but for brevities sake I'll ignore it for
the now.
Color first. I've always had trouble with the concept of a "neutral"
print. To my eye, Cone's K7 inks are the "most neutral" I've seen and
there is no observable color cross-over. There still is with K3/ABW but
its marginal and easily camouflaged, making it an excellent OEM
solution (and I think there is a lot of merit to that). It may be worth
mentioning that recently I did a series of test using IP, QTR (older
version) and Bowhaus, with the respective canned print profiles, to
print grayscale using the UC inks in a 2200. All produced good,
acceptable prints. Minimal color-crossover and acceptable color tint
(each print was a different color, none where neutral to my eye, but
all were okay). Using the canned print profiles with each RIP, the
Bowhaus produced better tonal structure: tonal transition seemed more
or less equal but Bowhaus produce a print with better internal or local
contrast. I thought that was an important difference.
The best results, printing grayscale with UC inks, came from using
ColorBurst. The canned ColorBurst environments (a linearization file
coupled with a print profile) are excellent. Our custom authored
environments demonstrated an observable difference, but not one you'd
likely notice unless you had the prints side-by-side. I like ColorBurst
because I can print grayscale and color through the same machine, ink
set, and RIP. Our custom profiles were authored with an EyeOne
spectrophotometer and MonacoProof software. I should also clarify that
the IP, QTR and Bowhaus test prints did not benefit from linearization,
like the ColorBurst prints did.
Right now, I like the K7 inks enough to consider dedicating my 7600 to
them and purchasing a 7800 when they become available.
>My understanding is that K7 has
enough cool toner added to be neutral on PR. If that is correct, it
means that K7 is cooler than Eboni. So how warm can K7 get? What
does it look like on PHP? And what happens to it on a cold paper like
CBW? How wide a tonal range does K7 have?
So far I've printed on Photo Rag, Bradford Bright White, Bradfore
Bright White dual sided, and Bradford Natural White (and a couple of
other odd papers I found in the studio). The print color is decided
unique with each. The Bright White dual sided is scary close to the old
Oriental Seagull or Kodak Elite papers toned in selenium. The Natural
White reminds me of a ligthly toned Kodak Ektalure print. I'd have to
say that the Photo Rag print is the most "neutral" to my eye; but the
print on Epson Enhanced Matt is also good.
The nice thing about this system is that you can standardize on the
inks and experiment to find a paper stock that works best for you.
>Related to this, in BO printing where uncoated paper shows through
between the dots, the paper color is an active and major contributor
to the over all tone, and also adds BO's characteristic luminance. In
full ink systems much less bare paper shows so there is a more opaque
look and the paper color is subdued a bit (doesn't have as much
influence), but some systems are better than others. For example, I
am pleased with the luminance of the 2400 K3 prints. It's really
quite good for a full ink system, but of course paper color is less
influential than in BO. Can you describe how K7 does in these areas?
I know this is completely subjective but I've always thought that
well-made quadtone prints have a luminance that is generally missing
from grayscale prints made with color ink sets. There is a difference
in the density of color (even using the best custom profiles through a
good RIP).
>Again re color tone, does K7 shift equally in mid tones and darker
zones when going from paper to paper? I guess what I mean is do all
the inks shift equally?
I believe they do. Cone could certainly provide more insight to this
question. I'd like to know, for example, if what I'm seeing is directly
related to the ink or to the way the ink is applied to the paper. Hope
that makes sense.
>When changing to other papers, there is more going on than color
shifts. There can also be changes in contrast, density and dmax. How
do you adjust for these other differences in your workflow? Do the
profiles take care of that or must you make some image adjustments?
So far Cone's canned profiles through QTR are working very well, which
does allow one to make reasonable, if subjective, judgements. There are
differences in dmax and the color of the paper stock definately
influences the eye. But the overall density and contrast of the test
prints were very well matched.
>With K3 I find that there are certain critical ABW settings for each
paper that eliminate the "colorized" look (where the print has a color
tinge to it). I wrestled somewhat unsuccessfully with this with UT7,
but with ABW I can make minute adjustments to find a setting that
eliminates it. Since K7 must have toners in it, is this ever a
problem? Do you feel handicapped not having variable tone control?
I think the K3/ABW and K7/QTR approaches are very different. Ideally,
you'd like to produce test prints on both. I've done this and like the
results both ways. As I've mentioned previously, ABW is--in my
opinion--a signficant development. Its the first OEM grayscale solution
that I could use and be happy with. I also like the fact that I could
make excellent grayscale and color prints from the same machine without
the expense of a third-party RIP. Very nice. I could easily envision a
project where using ABW would be appropriate. Given a choice, however,
I prefer the prints I'm making with K7. It's nice having the option.
Let me know if you have any other questions. I do have one idea: I'd be
happy to produce a set of test prints with K7, when my CFS and bottle
inks arrive. I could send them to you, Clayton, and you could then pass
them along to anyone else on the list that is seriously interested. It
would certainly help to suppliment my opinion with others.
Bill Kennedy
Austin, Texas2005-10-07 by Clayton Jones
Hello Bill, Thank you _very _ much for taking the time for this. I know it was a lot to ask and time is precious. >Right now, I like the K7 inks enough to consider dedicating my >7600 to them and purchasing a 7800 when they become available. That alone says a lot. >The Bright White dual sided is scary close to the old >Oriental Seagull or Kodak Elite papers toned in selenium. Ah, so on cold paper they go past black into the cool tints...I wonder how warm it will go? The warmest paper I've tested is Wm Turner (W7-B7 on my paper chart). I wonder how it would look on that... >The nice thing about this system is that you can standardize on the >inks and experiment to find a paper stock that works best for you. Yes, it's one of the things I love about BO and it sounds like K7 is similar in that respect. There's a certain simplicity about it that's very appealing and much like the darkroom. Because the ink never changes you get acutely attuned to all of its nuances on various papers. >>differences on various papers >the overall density and contrast of the test >prints were very well matched. That's good. >...K3/ABW and K7/QTR...like the results both ways. So they seem to both be in the same ball park at least... >ABW is--in my opinion--a signficant development. Its the first >OEM grayscale solution that I could use and be happy with. Agreed, same here. >excellent grayscale and color prints from the same machine >without the expense of a third-party RIP. Very nice. Yes! >I could easily envision a project where using ABW would be >appropriate. Given a choice, however, I prefer the prints I'm making with K7. Understood. >happy to produce a set of test prints with K7 I'm very interested and would be happy to reimburse the expenses. I will follow up via email. This is very helpful, I appreciate it very much. And I'm sure that lots of other readers are interested and appreciate it as well. Thanks again. Regards, Clayton Info on black and white digital printing at http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
2005-10-07 by piezobw
Neutral K7 was formulated as seven distinct ink dilutions. In effect, it is seven ink formulations. That was a lot of work but it results in uniform neutrality. There was no other way. You simply can not make a "mother" ink, then dilute it, and expect to be within the same hue but less dense. Carbon pigments are characteristically different upon dilution. It does not take much dilution to shift it. So it is very uniform. Thats the whole idea. Uniformity so that the paper has more meaning now... regards, Jon Cone --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, BKPhoto@a... wrote:
> > From: Clayton Jones <cj@c...> > > >Again re color tone, does K7 shift equally in mid tones and darker > zones when going from paper to paper? I guess what I mean is do all > the inks shift equally? > > I believe they do. Cone could certainly provide more insight to this > question. I'd like to know, for example, if what I'm seeing is directly > related to the ink or to the way the ink is applied to the paper. Hope > that makes sense.
2005-10-07 by Clayton Jones
Hello Jon, >Neutral K7 was formulated as seven distinct ink dilutions. In >effect, it is seven ink formulations. That was a lot of work >but it results in uniform neutrality. There was no other way. Thanks, that answers the question. >You simply can not make a "mother" ink, then dilute it, and >expect to be within the same hue but less dense. Carbon >pigments are characteristically different upon dilution. It >does not take much dilution to shift it. I found this out by trying to do exactly that! <g> That and other blending experiments have given me much respect for folks that can formulate these inks. Regards, Clayton Info on black and white digital printing at http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
2005-10-07 by BKPhoto@aol.com
Jon- Thanks for the clarification on the ink formulation; it fills in another blank for me. It would be very helpful if you would elaborate on the relationship between the print profiles you're authoring for K7/QTR and the linearization issue. If I've understood you correctly: you're saying that the authoring process reduces the need to linearize. It would make sense to me if the machines we're using stayed in a factory calibrated state, or were self-calibrating. My experience is that machines do drift as they are used and there are other factors--ink stock and paper stock, even environmental issues--that affect the calibrated state of a printing system. Any insight you can provide would be very useful. I'm not asking for proprietary information, just a better understanding of the relationship between these issues and how you've addressed them. There is one additional question you might address: the dmax of the K7 inks. Is it possible to increase the dmax, or are there inherent limitations or other factors that impose a limit? Thanks, Jon. Beautiful inks. Bill Kennedy Austin, Texas
-----Original Message-----
From: piezobw <piezobw@...>
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Fri, 07 Oct 2005 01:58:11 -0000
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: question about CFS systems - K7? Answers for
Clayton
Neutral K7 was formulated as seven distinct ink dilutions. In
effect, it is
seven ink
formulations. That was a lot of work but it results in uniform
neutrality. There
was no
other way. You simply can not make a "mother" ink, then dilute it, and
expect to
be within
the same hue but less dense. Carbon pigments are characteristically
different
upon
dilution. It does not take much dilution to shift it.
So it is very uniform. Thats the whole idea. Uniformity so that the
paper has
more meaning
now...
regards,
Jon Cone
--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, BKPhoto@a... wrote:
>
> From: Clayton Jones <cj@c...>
>
> >Again re color tone, does K7 shift equally in mid tones and darker
> zones when going from paper to paper? I guess what I mean is do all
> the inks shift equally?
>
> I believe they do. Cone could certainly provide more insight to this
> question. I'd like to know, for example, if what I'm seeing is
directly
> related to the ink or to the way the ink is applied to the paper.
Hope
> that makes sense.
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Yahoo! Groups Links2005-10-08 by Jon Cone
Bill, answers below: --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, BKPhoto@a... wrote: > > Jon- > > Thanks for the clarification on the ink formulation; it fills in > another blank for me. It would be very helpful if you would elaborate > on the relationship between the print profiles you're authoring for > K7/QTR and the linearization issue. If I've understood you correctly: > you're saying that the authoring process reduces the need to linearize. > It would make sense to me if the machines we're using stayed in a > factory calibrated state, or were self-calibrating. My experience is > that machines do drift as they are used and there are other > factors--ink stock and paper stock, even environmental issues--that > affect the calibrated state of a printing system. > > Any insight you can provide would be very useful. I'm not asking for > proprietary information, just a better understanding of the > relationship between these issues and how you've addressed them. Another way of saying it is there may be less to gain with linearizing a printer and creating simple curves - then to accept the state of the printer but use an elaborate profile which has many overlapping layers of ink to hide any potential flaws in the linearization. Its not just linearization, although linearization is important. In this case its also the quality of the profile. In our free curve files for QTR there is a generic linearization in combination with an exceptional profile. The linearization is averaged over three different 2200 printers (we think that is important rather than using a single example). But the elaborate ink curves if you could see them would boggle you. You couldn't make that by hand or with an instrument using the QTR curves generator. That is what makes the difference. > There is one additional question you might address: the dmax of the K7 > inks. Is it possible to increase the dmax, or are there inherent > limitations or other factors that impose a limit? Well if its TRULY pure pigment there is a limit. We chose to go pure pigment on the K7 set. Adding even a trace of dye increases dMax. But we're not doing it in this set. We found that we could get greater dMax via QTR than the EPSON driver, or even our old plugin. So we decided not to compromise longevity with even a trace amount of dye. regards, Jon
2005-10-09 by BKPhoto@aol.com
Jon- A belated thanks for your reply. You've given me much food for thought, and I appreciate your time. Bill Kennedy
-----Original Message----- From: Jon Cone <piezobw@...> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sat, 08 Oct 2005 00:50:04 -0000 Subject: [Digital BW] Re: question about CFS systems - K7? Answers for Clayton Bill, answers below: --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, BKPhoto@a... wrote: > > Jon- > > Thanks for the clarification on the ink formulation; it fills in > another blank for me. It would be very helpful if you would elaborate > on the relationship between the print profiles you're authoring for > K7/QTR and the linearization issue. If I've understood you correctly: > you're saying that the authoring process reduces the need to linearize. > It would make sense to me if the machines we're using stayed in a > factory calibrated state, or were self-calibrating. My experience is > that machines do drift as they are used and there are other > factors--ink stock and paper stock, even environmental issues--that > affect the calibrated state of a printing system. > > Any insight you can provide would be very useful. I'm not asking for > proprietary information, just a better understanding of the > relationship between these issues and how you've addressed them. Another way of saying it is there may be less to gain with linearizing a printer and creating simple curves - then to accept the state of the printer but use an elaborate profile which has many overlapping layers of ink to hide any potential flaws in the linearization. Its not just linearization, although linearization is important. In this case its also the quality of the profile. In our free curve files for QTR there is a generic linearization in combination with an exceptional profile. The linearization is averaged over three different 2200 printers (we think that is important rather than using a single example). But the elaborate ink curves if you could see them would boggle you. You couldn't make that by hand or with an instrument using the QTR curves generator. That is what makes the difference. > There is one additional question you might address: the dmax of the K7 > inks. Is it possible to increase the dmax, or are there inherent > limitations or other factors that impose a limit? Well if its TRULY pure pigment there is a limit. We chose to go pure pigment on the K7 set. Adding even a trace of dye increases dMax. But we're not doing it in this set. We found that we could get greater dMax via QTR than the EPSON driver, or even our old plugin. So we decided not to compromise longevity with even a trace amount of dye. regards, Jon Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as they are often being updated. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same page. Please follow these basic guidelines: - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short. - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the membership without notice. - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from the membership. - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files section: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/ BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP. Yahoo! Groups Links