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Difficulty with Paul Roark's UT-FS curves

Difficulty with Paul Roark's UT-FS curves

2005-11-07 by Peter Aronson

I've been experimenting with Paul's UT-FS curves (UT-FS, Mac OS X,
PS7, printing on EEM) and have run into a problem... I think maybe the
copy of the 1160-UT-FS-RGB-EEM-1.acv curve that I have is messed up.
I've been able to produce a decent-looking step wedge with fairly
smooth gradations using the 1160-UT-FS-RGB-EEM-2.acv and
1160-UT-FS-RGB-Mild-EEM.acv curves, however on those 2 the highlights
(from about 40% on up) show an unacceptable amount of dithering/dots,
especially from about 15% up.

The 1160-UT-FS-RGB-EEM-1.acv curve that I have produces wonderfully
smooth highlights with no dithering. However, it appears that some of
the other tones are out of order (hope I'm explaining this clearly) so
that instead of producing a smooth gradation from gray to black, it's
kind of out of order. It even appears this way on-screen before
printing; the colors appear to have gotten shuffled somehow,
particularly in the midtones.

What I would like is to be able to print with 1160-UT-FS-RGB-EEM-1.acv
because of its wonderfully smooth highlights, but with the rest of the
values corrected.

So I'm wondering if I have an older version of
1160-UT-FS-RGB-EEM-1.acv, and this is a known bug that got fixed
somewhere, or whether I perhaps have a corrupted file, or whether it's
something else.

I've posted the three files I'm using, just in case anyone would like
to duplicate these results. They're at:

http://www.peteraronson.com/private/1160-UT-FS-RGB-EEM-1.acv
http://www.peteraronson.com/private/1160-UT-FS-RGB-EEM-2.acv
http://www.peteraronson.com/private/1160-UT-FS-RGB-Mild-EEM.acv


I've also posted a scan of the step wedges here:
http://www.peteraronson.com/private/stepwedgeresults.png

Thanks in advance for any help,
Peter Aronson

RE: [Digital BW] Difficulty with Paul Roark's UT-FS curves

2005-11-07 by Paul Roark

Peter,

I can't tell what the problem might be.  Be sure you're using "No Color
Adjustment" and there are no other profiles used in the printing.

The scan you posted looks light there are no highlights, but may be that is
just the scan.  Be sure you're getting perfect nozzle checks.

I'd also be sure the driver is the Epson driver.  Some computers have
abbreviated drivers that act differently than the Epson drivers.

I'll send you the curves off list.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Peter
> Aronson
> Sent: Monday, November 07, 2005 12:13 PM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Digital BW] Difficulty with Paul Roark's UT-FS curves
> 
> I've been experimenting with Paul's UT-FS curves (UT-FS, Mac OS X,
> PS7, printing on EEM) and have run into a problem... I think maybe the
> copy of the 1160-UT-FS-RGB-EEM-1.acv curve that I have is messed up.
> I've been able to produce a decent-looking step wedge with fairly
> smooth gradations using the 1160-UT-FS-RGB-EEM-2.acv and
> 1160-UT-FS-RGB-Mild-EEM.acv curves, however on those 2 the highlights
> (from about 40% on up) show an unacceptable amount of dithering/dots,
> especially from about 15% up.
> 
> The 1160-UT-FS-RGB-EEM-1.acv curve that I have produces wonderfully
> smooth highlights with no dithering. However, it appears that some of
> the other tones are out of order (hope I'm explaining this clearly) so
> that instead of producing a smooth gradation from gray to black, it's
> kind of out of order. It even appears this way on-screen before
> printing; the colors appear to have gotten shuffled somehow,
> particularly in the midtones.
> 
> What I would like is to be able to print with 1160-UT-FS-RGB-EEM-1.acv
> because of its wonderfully smooth highlights, but with the rest of the
> values corrected.
> 
> So I'm wondering if I have an older version of
> 1160-UT-FS-RGB-EEM-1.acv, and this is a known bug that got fixed
> somewhere, or whether I perhaps have a corrupted file, or whether it's
> something else.
> 
> I've posted the three files I'm using, just in case anyone would like
> to duplicate these results. They're at:
> 
> http://www.peteraronson.com/private/1160-UT-FS-RGB-EEM-1.acv
> http://www.peteraronson.com/private/1160-UT-FS-RGB-EEM-2.acv
> http://www.peteraronson.com/private/1160-UT-FS-RGB-Mild-EEM.acv
> 
> 
> I've also posted a scan of the step wedges here:
> http://www.peteraronson.com/private/stepwedgeresults.png
> 
> Thanks in advance for any help,
> Peter Aronson
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
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> 
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Re: Difficulty with Paul Roark's UT-FS curves

2005-11-07 by Peter Aronson

Thanks Paul. It seems that the curve that's giving me problems is
identical to the one you sent me. There are definitely highlights in
the step wedges, but it's not a very good scan. I'll rescan it and
send you a very high-resolution file off list.

My nozzle checks are perfect. Seems the Epson printer driver I'm using
has a lot more options than the one you had. I'm not sure whether it's
the Epson driver or not. I'm running Mac OS X 10.3.8 and I'm not sure
how to select a particular driver... only how to select the correct
printer. However, I did download and install driver software from the
Epson site, so I assume that's what's running. Here are some of the
options the driver gives me when I go to print:

"ColorSync":
- Color conversion: Standard (the only other option, "in printer", is
grayed out). In the settings summary it says "Driver may perform
custom color correction: True" and I don't see any way to fix that.
- Quartz filter: None (there are several other options: Black & white,
Blue tone, Gray tone, Lightness decrease, Lightness increase, Reduce
file size, Sepia tone, and Add filters...)

"Printer features":
-Feature sets: Basic settings
-Media type: Matte Paper(Other options: Plain paper, Plain paper fast
load, Postcard, Glossy film, Transparencies, Envelopes, Black Light
Film, Inkjet Paper, Photo Quality Inkjet Paper, Photo Paper, Premium
Glossy Photo Paper, Premium Luster Photo Paper, Photo Quality Glossy
Paper, Ilford Heavy Paper, ColorLife Paper, Other)
-Resolution: 1440x720 DPI Highest Quality (also offers 1440x720 DPI
and 1440x720 DPI Unidirectional)
-Image type: Photograph (Other options: Line Art, Solid Colors)
-Dither Algorithm: Adaptive Hybrid (I've also tried EvenTone without
much visible difference. Other options: Ordered, Fast, Very Fast,
Hybrid Floyd-Steinberg)
-Ink type: Four-color standard (Other options: Three-color composite,
Quadtone)

What's odd is that I kept these settings for this and the other
curves, and the EEM-2 and Mild-EEM curves didn't have tones out of
order, just the dotty highlights.

If there are any Mac OS X users reading this, any idea how to be sure
I'm using the right driver? Any idea how to disallow color correction
in the driver?

Thanks,
Peter


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark"
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
>
> Peter,
> 
> I can't tell what the problem might be.  Be sure you're using "No Color
> Adjustment" and there are no other profiles used in the printing.
> 
> The scan you posted looks light there are no highlights, but may be
that is
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> just the scan.  Be sure you're getting perfect nozzle checks.
> 
> I'd also be sure the driver is the Epson driver.  Some computers have
> abbreviated drivers that act differently than the Epson drivers.
> 
> I'll send you the curves off list.
> 
> Paul

RE: [Digital BW] Re: Difficulty with Paul Roark's UT-FS curves

2005-11-08 by Paul Roark

I suspect the driver is the difference.  I think I've heard Epson didn't
re-write the 1160 driver of OS X. 

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Peter
> Aronson
> Sent: Monday, November 07, 2005 2:51 PM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Difficulty with Paul Roark's UT-FS curves
> 
> Thanks Paul. It seems that the curve that's giving me problems is
> identical to the one you sent me. There are definitely highlights in
> the step wedges, but it's not a very good scan. I'll rescan it and
> send you a very high-resolution file off list.
> 
> My nozzle checks are perfect. Seems the Epson printer driver I'm using
> has a lot more options than the one you had. I'm not sure whether it's
> the Epson driver or not. I'm running Mac OS X 10.3.8 and I'm not sure
> how to select a particular driver... only how to select the correct
> printer. However, I did download and install driver software from the
> Epson site, so I assume that's what's running. Here are some of the
> options the driver gives me when I go to print:
> 
> "ColorSync":
> - Color conversion: Standard (the only other option, "in printer", is
> grayed out). In the settings summary it says "Driver may perform
> custom color correction: True" and I don't see any way to fix that.
> - Quartz filter: None (there are several other options: Black & white,
> Blue tone, Gray tone, Lightness decrease, Lightness increase, Reduce
> file size, Sepia tone, and Add filters...)
> 
> "Printer features":
> -Feature sets: Basic settings
> -Media type: Matte Paper(Other options: Plain paper, Plain paper fast
> load, Postcard, Glossy film, Transparencies, Envelopes, Black Light
> Film, Inkjet Paper, Photo Quality Inkjet Paper, Photo Paper, Premium
> Glossy Photo Paper, Premium Luster Photo Paper, Photo Quality Glossy
> Paper, Ilford Heavy Paper, ColorLife Paper, Other)
> -Resolution: 1440x720 DPI Highest Quality (also offers 1440x720 DPI
> and 1440x720 DPI Unidirectional)
> -Image type: Photograph (Other options: Line Art, Solid Colors)
> -Dither Algorithm: Adaptive Hybrid (I've also tried EvenTone without
> much visible difference. Other options: Ordered, Fast, Very Fast,
> Hybrid Floyd-Steinberg)
> -Ink type: Four-color standard (Other options: Three-color composite,
> Quadtone)
> 
> What's odd is that I kept these settings for this and the other
> curves, and the EEM-2 and Mild-EEM curves didn't have tones out of
> order, just the dotty highlights.
> 
> If there are any Mac OS X users reading this, any idea how to be sure
> I'm using the right driver? Any idea how to disallow color correction
> in the driver?
> 
> Thanks,
> Peter
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark"
> <paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> >
> > Peter,
> >
> > I can't tell what the problem might be.  Be sure you're using "No Color
> > Adjustment" and there are no other profiles used in the printing.
> >
> > The scan you posted looks light there are no highlights, but may be
> that is
> > just the scan.  Be sure you're getting perfect nozzle checks.
> >
> > I'd also be sure the driver is the Epson driver.  Some computers have
> > abbreviated drivers that act differently than the Epson drivers.
> >
> > I'll send you the curves off list.
> >
> > Paul
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
> they are often being updated.
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
> page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
> Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
> membership without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
> printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from
> the membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner
> and Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files
> section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> 
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
> YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND
> "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO
> YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR
> EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF
> PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE
> "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN
> ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE
> OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii)
> UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii)
> STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
> YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE
> PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
> 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>

Re: Difficulty with Paul Roark's UT-FS curves

2005-11-08 by Peter Aronson

So that would mean I need to either print with another driver (R9?),
another OS (difficult, unless it's Mac OS 9), or a RIP, right?

Is anybody successfully printing on an 1160 on OS X using curves and
the standard driver?

Peter

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark"
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> I suspect the driver is the difference.  I think I've heard Epson didn't
> re-write the 1160 driver of OS X. 
> 
> Paul

To Paul R, Emergency Call

2005-11-08 by Hans & Chia

Hi Paul,

We are still using the "old" UT1, not much left now, and an Epson 7500.
Right now, in the middle of a big printing 
session we were going to run out of Y-pos ink.
Got a bottle Y-pos ink (UT-HEX-4-Y) from a friend 
printing with a 2100. Thought it was the same as 
our Y-ink.
Think you can guess the mess ;­) The new ink is 
much darker looks more like our LC-pos ink.
However, now it's mixed with the rest of our old Y-ink.
We have a lot of glycerine and dest water.
Can we dilute the Eboni, C or LC ink in some way to get a new Y ink?
Isn't the base 4:3  H2O/glycerine?

Thankfull for any help

Hans
-- 
Atelier Pictoform
Chia N-Löfqvist & Hans Nohlberg

http://www.pictoform.nu

RE: [Digital BW] To Paul R, Emergency Call

2005-11-08 by Paul Roark

Hans,

> 
> We are still using the "old" UT1 ... and an Epson 7500.
> ... going to run out of Y-pos ink.

> Got a bottle Y-pos ink (UT-HEX-4-Y) from a friend
> printing with a 2100.

I assume the friend was not using UT1 in a 2100.  That printer can use UT7,
but not the original UT (aka UT1).

> Thought it was the same as our Y-ink.
> Think you can guess the mess ;-) The new ink is
> much darker looks more like our LC-pos ink.

I'm confused also.  The "UT-Hex-4-Y" label, I believe, should have been the
same as the original UT Y that you were using.

> However, now it's mixed with the rest of our old Y-ink.

It may be easiest to just start over -- if you have the time.

> We have a lot of glycerine and dest water.
> Can we dilute the Eboni,

Don't use Eboni.

> C or LC ink in some way to get a new Y ink?

LC in the UT1 inkset is 50% C.  So, LC is the best starting point due to it
having the correct base.  

> Isn't the base 4:3  H2O/glycerine?

No.  That is just a simple base I made that would hold most of the pigs
(even Eboni) in suspension.  The UC inks were my main target for it.  It is
missing some components.  If not much is used, it's probably not a problem.
However, if most of the base is this simple mix, I don't know what the
effects would be.  I've used up to a 50% mix of it, but that's as far as
I've gone.

The UT1 Hex Y is about 22% UT1-Hex-LC and 78% base.  So, using the
simplified base to that degree is beyond what I've tried.  

Good luck.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

RE: [Digital BW] To Paul R, Emergency Call

2005-11-08 by Hans & Chia

Thanks Paul,


>I assume the friend was not using UT1 in a 2100.  That printer can use UT7,
>but not the original UT (aka UT1).

Right I think it was a 1290.

>  > Thought it was the same as our Y-ink.
>>  Think you can guess the mess ;-) The new ink is
>>  much darker looks more like our LC-pos ink.
>
>I'm confused also.  The "UT-Hex-4-Y" label, I believe, should have been the
>same as the original UT Y that you were using.
>
>>  However, now it's mixed with the rest of our old Y-ink.
>
>It may be easiest to just start over -- if you have the time.

Unfortunately not. Now it's a real fight against time.


>No.  That is just a simple base I made that would hold most of the pigs
>(even Eboni) in suspension.  The UC inks were my main target for it.  It is
>missing some components.  If not much is used, it's probably not a problem.
>However, if most of the base is this simple mix, I don't know what the
>effects would be.  I've used up to a 50% mix of it, but that's as far as
>I've gone.
>
>The UT1 Hex Y is about 22% UT1-Hex-LC and 78% base.  So, using the
>simplified base to that degree is beyond what I've tried.


Only 22%!

Maybe I should try to dilute the "new" Y-ink, 
when judging a purge file print the "new" Y 
appears to be between the LC and the real Y.
Think I have some hundred ml of cleaning fluid for the 7500.
Do you think I can use that instead of the simplified base?

>Good luck.

Thanks

Hans
-- 
Atelier Pictoform
Chia N-Löfqvist & Hans Nohlberg
Hedåsgatan 5
SE-412 53 Göteborg
SWEDEN

+46  (0)31 181414
Mobile: 073 974 44 24
(Besök/visit Hedåsgatan 6)

http://www.pictoform.nu
http://www.etsabild.se
http://www.artphotocollection.com

Re: Difficulty with Paul Roark's UT-FS curves

2005-11-08 by Clayton Price

>  "Paul Roark" wrote:
> I suspect the driver is the difference.  I think I've heard Epson 
> didn't
> re-write the 1160 driver of OS X.

Paul - I believe that is correct.
I was actually printing with Jon Cone's inks for about 4 years on an 
1160 with OS 9.2, getting very consistent and IMHO, really lovely print 
quality (with some custom curves)  The moment I switched to OS X, the 
trouble began. So for a long time I was going back and forth with the 
two operating systems for printing in 9, and everything else in 10.   
At this point I sold the 1160 and am starting tests with K7 on a 
dedicated 2200 in OS 10.3.9. What a relief:-)

Clayton Price

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