Digital BW, The Print

This is a B&W printing 101 question. Please humour me.....

A student of mine is photographing digitally then desaturating the
images in PS. She is then using the history brush to bring specific
colour spots back into the image. The colour picker shows that the B&W
portions of the image are absolutely neutral. Yet there is a magenta
cast in the mid to highlight areas and green tones in the mid to
shadow areas.

Can anyone suggest a workaround that will avoid these cross curves yet
retain the colour spots? (Colorspace: Adobe 1998, Epson 4000, Epson
enhanced matte and Epson EM profile, Epson driver.)


Thanks

John Malcolm
New Zealand

John

Unfortunately she's in between a rock and a hard place to a degree.  The
magenta cast is a classic problem printing B&W through a colour profile.
There are many ways around that for a totally B&W image but you mention she
has colour components to the image (even though it is largely B&W) which
forces a colour workflow upon her.  One suggestion is that she try a colour
RIP that performs better than the Epson driver on the B&W axis, eg
Imageprint, but it's not a cheap suggestion.

[Also, and not to do with your printing problem, she should really try using
a more sophisticated approach to getting the image to B&W, say a Channel
Mixer layer with a Mask revealing all - she can then paint on the mask with
a black rush to hide the channel mixer layer and bring back the colour
underneath. (She can also then change the opacity of the channel mixer layer
to soften the saturation of the colour components in the image.)]

Cheers

Steve

PS:  Glad to see the boys can beat the Poms even with just 14 men!

> From: John Malcolm <johnmalcolm@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 09:37:49 -0000
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: [Digital BW] Neutral B&W from RGB?
> 
> This is a B&W printing 101 question. Please humour me.....
> 
> A student of mine is photographing digitally then desaturating the
> images in PS. She is then using the history brush to bring specific
> colour spots back into the image. The colour picker shows that the B&W
> portions of the image are absolutely neutral. Yet there is a magenta
> cast in the mid to highlight areas and green tones in the mid to
> shadow areas.
> 
> Can anyone suggest a workaround that will avoid these cross curves yet
> retain the colour spots? (Colorspace: Adobe 1998, Epson 4000, Epson
> enhanced matte and Epson EM profile, Epson driver.)
> 
> 
> Thanks
> 
> John Malcolm
> New Zealand
>

You'll probably have to go to a RIP.  Imageprint does this quite well.  There may be others.
 
Tom Baker


John Malcolm <johnmalcolm@...> wrote:
This is a B&W printing 101 question. Please humour me.....

A student of mine is photographing digitally then desaturating the
images in PS. She is then using the history brush to bring specific
colour spots back into the image. The colour picker shows that the B&W
portions of the image are absolutely neutral. Yet there is a magenta
cast in the mid to highlight areas and green tones in the mid to
shadow areas.

Can anyone suggest a workaround that will avoid these cross curves yet
retain the colour spots? (Colorspace: Adobe 1998, Epson 4000, Epson
enhanced matte and Epson EM profile, Epson driver.)


Thanks

John Malcolm
New Zealand







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--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "John Malcolm" 
<johnmalcolm@f...> wrote:

I'll say that you definitely want a RIP, but I'll differ and say try 
the demo of Power RIPx http://www.iproofsystems.com/powerrip_x.htm 
unless she wants to get much deeper into RIP set up and color 
management and then there are others I might suggest. She should 
explain what she wants to do to the people at iproof systems so that 
they can help.

John,

Rather then buying a RIP you may want to make a custom ICC profile for your
printer and paper combination. The profile from Epson is only a starting
point and many problems can be fixed with a GOOD icc profiles, even through
the Epson drivers.

From: John Malcolm <johnmalcolm@...>
Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2005 09:37:49 -0000
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [Digital BW] Neutral B&W from RGB?

This is a B&W printing 101 question. Please humour me.....

A student of mine is photographing digitally then desaturating the
images in PS. She is then using the history brush to bring specific
colour spots back into the image. The colour picker shows that the B&W
portions of the image are absolutely neutral. Yet there is a magenta
cast in the mid to highlight areas and green tones in the mid to
shadow areas.

Can anyone suggest a workaround that will avoid these cross curves yet
retain the colour spots? (Colorspace: Adobe 1998, Epson 4000, Epson
enhanced matte and Epson EM profile, Epson driver.)


Thanks

John Malcolm
New Zealand







Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
they are often being updated.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
page.

Please follow these basic guidelines:
- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the
membership without notice.
- Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from
the membership.
- By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and
Moderators. See ³Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines² in the Files section:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/

BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE ³OWNER² AND
³MODERATORS² OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU
FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY
DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS,
GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  ³OWNER² AND
³MODERATORS² OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE
POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY
TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR
ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY
THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER
MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.


  

 
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> A student of mine is photographing digitally then desaturating the
> images in PS. She is then using the history brush to bring specific
> colour spots back into the image. The colour picker shows that the B&W
> portions of the image are absolutely neutral. Yet there is a magenta
> cast in the mid to highlight areas and green tones in the mid to
> shadow areas.
>
> Can anyone suggest a workaround that will avoid these cross curves yet
> retain the colour spots? (Colorspace: Adobe 1998, Epson 4000, Epson
> enhanced matte and Epson EM profile, Epson driver.)
>
John

the problem is that on the whole printing greyscale with the Epson
driver/profiles is going to give you those colour crossovers - which is why
people are using either quadtone/grey inks or things like the Quadtone RIP
for neutral prints.

But that doesn't help your need for colour as well - the Imageprint RIP will
let you do this - a neutral greyscale and you can mix in colour just as you
describe - but it's pretty expensive for the 4000

(I don't know if the Epson greyscale set-up on the new and better 4800 lets
you do this?)

The only other option would be to intentionally "tone" your greyscale say a
slight sepia or such - so you are actually picking a slight colour to the
greyscale aspect (there are a number of sites around that give some good
toning curves or workflows for free - I personally like using either the
PhotoKit options or the toning options in "Convert to B&W Pro" [which also
gives better B&W options than desaturate] - but those aren't free)

What I find is that by giving the image a slight warm tone (you can chose
others such as cooler or selenium as well) that the driver has an easier
time giving you a toned print than an entirely neutral one. Then you could
probably go ahead and recover the small colour sections as she is doing
using saved layers etc.

tim a

I have done many things using Ultrachrome with both color and
monochrome content within the same print and have no problem 
producing neutral black and white within that context. Any of the
Epson machines that have at least two blacks in them should work fine
for this type of work. I've done it a lot with posters and such where
I need black and white out of rgb colorspace. 

As stated before, you need a really good profile to do this. Your
chances of arriving at this neutrality through a generic profile are
very slim. You will need to pay someone to make one for you for the
specific paper you are using. Atkinsons canned profiles are good, but
usually not that accurate for this type of job.

John

> > Can anyone suggest a workaround that will avoid these cross curves yet
> > retain the colour spots? (Colorspace: Adobe 1998, Epson 4000, Epson
> > enhanced matte and Epson EM profile, Epson driver.)
> >
>

"As stated before, you need a really good profile to do this."

And, who do you recommend...?

Thanks,
Scott



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "john dean" 
<deanwork2003@y...> wrote:
>
> I have done many things using Ultrachrome with both color and
> monochrome content within the same print and have no problem 
> producing neutral black and white within that context. Any of the
> Epson machines that have at least two blacks in them should work 
fine
> for this type of work. I've done it a lot with posters and such 
where
> I need black and white out of rgb colorspace. 
> 
> As stated before, you need a really good profile to do this. Your
> chances of arriving at this neutrality through a generic profile are
> very slim. You will need to pay someone to make one for you for the
> specific paper you are using. Atkinsons canned profiles are good, 
but
> usually not that accurate for this type of job.
> 
> John
> 
> 
> 
> > > Can anyone suggest a workaround that will avoid these cross 
curves yet
> > > retain the colour spots? (Colorspace: Adobe 1998, Epson 4000, 
Epson

> > > enhanced matte and Epson EM profile, Epson driver.)
> > >
> >
>

Personally I've always used profilecity dot com. There are plenty of
others from what I've heard on these lists. I've always had perfect
results with Profile Cith, but they are about a $100.00 each. If I
were you I would ask this question on the yahoo epson large format
list and also search those archives. Some people have them done for
half that and are happy. I'd check into that. There are more color
specialists around over there I imagine.

John



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com,
"scott_now_coming" <scott_now_coming@y...> wrote:

>
> "As stated before, you need a really good profile to do this."
> 
> And, who do you recommend...?
> 
> Thanks,
> Scott
> 
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "john dean" 
> <deanwork2003@y...> wrote:
> >
> > I have done many things using Ultrachrome with both color and
> > monochrome content within the same print and have no problem 
> > producing neutral black and white within that context. Any of the
> > Epson machines that have at least two blacks in them should work 
> fine
> > for this type of work. I've done it a lot with posters and such 
> where
> > I need black and white out of rgb colorspace. 
> > 
> > As stated before, you need a really good profile to do this. Your
> > chances of arriving at this neutrality through a generic profile are
> > very slim. You will need to pay someone to make one for you for the
> > specific paper you are using. Atkinsons canned profiles are good, 
> but
> > usually not that accurate for this type of job.
> > 
> > John
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > > > Can anyone suggest a workaround that will avoid these cross 
> curves yet
> > > > retain the colour spots? (Colorspace: Adobe 1998, Epson 4000, 
> Epson
> > > > enhanced matte and Epson EM profile, Epson driver.)
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

You also might try http://www.pixelpusherz.net/ColorManagement.htm  

These so called small gamut profiles print quite neutral and are only 
$25.  Just a very slight hint of metamerism and with some papers 
nearly identical to QTR... 

I use the semi-matte profile all time. 

SteveB 

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "john dean" 
<deanwork2003@y...> wrote:
>
> Personally I've always used profilecity dot com. There are plenty of
> others from what I've heard on these lists. I've always had perfect
> results with Profile Cith, but they are about a $100.00 each. If I
> were you I would ask this question on the yahoo epson large format
> list and also search those archives. Some people have them done for
> half that and are happy. I'd check into that. There are more color
> specialists around over there I imagine.
> 
> John
> 
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com,
> "scott_now_coming" <scott_now_coming@y...> wrote:
> >
> > "As stated before, you need a really good profile to do this."
> > 
> > And, who do you recommend...?
> > 
> > Thanks,
> > Scott
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "john dean" 
> > <deanwork2003@y...> wrote:
> > >
> > > I have done many things using Ultrachrome with both color and
> > > monochrome content within the same print and have no problem 
> > > producing neutral black and white within that context. Any of 
the
> > > Epson machines that have at least two blacks in them should 
work 
> > fine
> > > for this type of work. I've done it a lot with posters and such 
> > where
> > > I need black and white out of rgb colorspace. 
> > > 
> > > As stated before, you need a really good profile to do this. 
Your
> > > chances of arriving at this neutrality through a generic 
profile are
> > > very slim. You will need to pay someone to make one for you for 
the
> > > specific paper you are using. Atkinsons canned profiles are 
good, 
> > but
> > > usually not that accurate for this type of job.
> > > 
> > > John
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > > > Can anyone suggest a workaround that will avoid these cross 
> > curves yet
> > > > > retain the colour spots? (Colorspace: Adobe 1998, Epson 
4000, 

> > Epson
> > > > > enhanced matte and Epson EM profile, Epson driver.)
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>