Digital BW, The Print

I have a friend/photographer who is having real back difficulties when
working hours at a time when retouching her work for neurotic
corporate clients on a short time schedule.

She wants to buy a Wacom or similar pressure sensitve pen and tablet.
Since I don't use one I'm not sure what is the best available now for
the money. From the days when I did use one I remember it makes sense
to buy as large of one as possible. For me anything smaller than 11x14
is not worth the trouble. Do you guys use the newer ones? What is out
there? Where does she shop online?

John

I use an Intuos 3...the 4x5 (or so) size.  Easy to hold in my lap. 
For the stuff I do with it (masking, dodging, burning, etc.), it's
plenty big.  I actually think a tablet of 11x14 would be too big...  
I just got mine locally at CompUSA.

On 11/29/05, john dean <deanwork2003@...> wrote:

> She wants to buy a Wacom or similar pressure sensitve pen and tablet.
> Since I don't use one I'm not sure what is the best available now for
> the money. From the days when I did use one I remember it makes sense
> to buy as large of one as possible. For me anything smaller than 11x14
> is not worth the trouble. Do you guys use the newer ones? What is out
> there? Where does she shop online?

--
Lee Hiers, AA4GA
"Have Dobro Will Travel"

What size you think you need somewhat depends on what your prior experience
is.  Mine goes back to the old SummaGraphics tablets.  I currently have the
Intuos3, and the precision and sensitivity allows a much smaller tablet than
I would have thought, comparing to memory of the older ones.  I went for a
large one due to a 3200x1200 display space, but with a steady hand, a
smaller one would work fine.  The only downside to too big is desk space if
that matters; you can program the tablet to be smaller if you want shorter
hand strokes.  For masking and retouching, it is the right tool, for sure.

OTOH, I’m not sure how it will help back difficulties.  I would consider
setting up a standing workstation with a really good mat to stand on.  It
takes weeks to get use to, but is much better for your back.  My Wife spent
years, and too much money on all kinds of special chairs, and ergonomic
consultants before figuring that out.  Yoga and core body exercises help
tremendously as well, but now I’m way off topic.

Best regards,
John Moody

-----Original Message-----
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@...m
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of john dean
Sent: Tuesday, November 29, 2005 2:41 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] Wacom Tablet for Photoshop Retouching?

I have a friend/photographer who is having real back difficulties when
working hours at a time when retouching her work for neurotic
corporate clients on a short time schedule.

She wants to buy a Wacom or similar pressure sensitve pen and tablet.
Since I don't use one I'm not sure what is the best available now for
the money. From the days when I did use one I remember it makes sense
to buy as large of one as possible. For me anything smaller than 11x14
is not worth the trouble. Do you guys use the newer ones? What is out
there? Where does she shop online?

John




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I have the 6x8 and love it.  The 4x5 may be too small for my hands.  But, the bigger ones would definitely be to big for me.  It's the additional hand/arm motion that is required for the bigger ones that I would have a problem with.  However, precision may be enhanced with the larger one.  But, the level of detail I can get with the 6x8 is entirely adequate.
 
Tom Baker

Lee Hiers <lee.hiers@...> wrote:
I use an Intuos 3...the 4x5 (or so) size.  Easy to hold in my lap. 
For the stuff I do with it (masking, dodging, burning, etc.), it's
plenty big.  I actually think a tablet of 11x14 would be too big...  
I just got mine locally at CompUSA.

On 11/29/05, john dean <deanwork2003@...> wrote:

> She wants to buy a Wacom or similar pressure sensitve pen and tablet.
> Since I don't use one I'm not sure what is the best available now for
> the money. From the days when I did use one I remember it makes sense
> to buy as large of one as possible. For me anything smaller than 11x14
> is not worth the trouble. Do you guys use the newer ones? What is out
> there? Where does she shop online?

--
Lee Hiers, AA4GA
"Have Dobro Will Travel"


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I have a 12x12 Calcomp that works pretty well, but is sometimes a 
little on the big side. If money is no object, I would probably get the 
Wacom that has an LCD inside so that you are actually drawing on the 
work. They are expensive, but to me I think this would be the closest 
to drawing, or airbrush on a substraite. If not the Wacom with the 
airbrush stylus as well as the regular pressure sensitive stylus would 
be a recommendation. Probably somewhere in the 12x12 size or slightly 
larger, and maybe the proper stand to go with it (angles like a 
drafting table).

http://www.wacom.com/lcdtablets/

I wonder how faithful the color is, and how difficult it would be to 
calibrate/profile one of these?

I honestly can't believe people do serious retouching without one.  One of
the best things I ever bought.  I have the Intuos 2 30x23cm.  Would not want
anything smaller if you can afford it.  Annoyingly they still aren't
bluetooth enabled (except for the little Graphire which I would not
recommend) and so you have a stupid wire across your desk which these days
is very unnecessary.

But re the back, I doubt this has anything to do with using a mouse vs a
tablet. A good chair, proper posture and a EXERCISE is key for that.

> From: john dean <deanwork2003@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 19:41:09 -0000
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: [Digital BW] Wacom Tablet for Photoshop Retouching?
> 
> I have a friend/photographer who is having real back difficulties when
> working hours at a time when retouching her work for neurotic
> corporate clients on a short time schedule.
> 
> She wants to buy a Wacom or similar pressure sensitve pen and tablet.
> Since I don't use one I'm not sure what is the best available now for
> the money. From the days when I did use one I remember it makes sense
> to buy as large of one as possible. For me anything smaller than 11x14
> is not worth the trouble. Do you guys use the newer ones? What is out
> there? Where does she shop online?
> 
> John 
>

Thanks guys,

I really appreciate the comments. Now I want one myself. I think the
6x11 Intuos would be great for her (and me eventually) because it
matches the proportion of the new 22" Lacie LCD she just set up.

John, I also appreciate your comments about your wife looking for the
perfect ergonomic work environment and settling on standing up. That
is definitely worth checking into. For me there has just been no
substitue for taking a break every hour and doing someting compeletely
different, and being firm with the clients, even when that hurts. 

John



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Greg"
<dfaprinting@y...> wrote:

>
> 
> 
> http://www.wacom.com/lcdtablets/
> 
> I wonder how faithful the color is, and how difficult it would be to 
> calibrate/profile one of these?
>

Steve Kale wrote:

> I honestly can't believe people do serious retouching without one.  One of
> the best things I ever bought.  I have the Intuos 2 30x23cm.  Would 
> not want
> anything smaller if you can afford it.  Annoyingly they still aren't
> bluetooth enabled (except for the little Graphire which I would not
> recommend) and so you have a stupid wire across your desk which these days
> is very unnecessary.
>
> But re the back, I doubt this has anything to do with using a mouse vs a
> tablet. A good chair, proper posture and a EXERCISE is key for that.
>
>
> > From: john dean <deanwork2003@...>
> > Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> > Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 19:41:09 -0000
> > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> > Subject: [Digital BW] Wacom Tablet for Photoshop Retouching?
> >
> > I have a friend/photographer who is having real back difficulties when
> > working hours at a time when retouching her work for neurotic
> > corporate clients on a short time schedule.
> >
> > She wants to buy a Wacom or similar pressure sensitve pen and tablet.
> > Since I don't use one I'm not sure what is the best available now for
> > the money. From the days when I did use one I remember it makes sense
> > to buy as large of one as possible. For me anything smaller than 11x14
> > is not worth the trouble. Do you guys use the newer ones? What is out
> > there? Where does she shop online?
> >
> > John

Hi Steve.
Unlike you I would certainly recommend a small tablet.  I've had the 
little Graphire for several years and it's superb - I couldn't do 
photoshopping without it.  And I use it for almost all of the time as a 
mouse substitute for all other applications too.  There is a bit of a 
misconception that the small one doesn't allow such fine detailed work.  
But as the work area is mapped to the screen I zoom my work on the 
screen to an appropriate working size and then the small tablet size is 
no issue.  And, you don't end up making large sweeping movements for 
your navigation and wearing out your arm!  So, I'm all for small ... !
Steve Gledhill
http://www.virtuallygrey.co.uk/

	
	
		
___________________________________________________________ 
Yahoo! Messenger - NEW crystal clear PC to PC calling worldwide with voicemail http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale 
<stevekale@b...> wrote:
>
> I honestly can't believe people do serious retouching without one.  
One of
> the best things I ever bought.  

For anyone sitting on the fence about buying a tablet, I have to 
agree with the above statements!

Greg,

You've convinced me. We are going to buy the Wacom, the new Intuos3
6x11 next week for Robin and if I like it I'm doing the same. I
appreciate that link too! 

Thanks again,
John


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Greg"
<dfaprinting@y...> wrote:

>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale 
> <stevekale@b...> wrote:
> >
> > I honestly can't believe people do serious retouching without one.  
> One of
> > the best things I ever bought.  
> 
> For anyone sitting on the fence about buying a tablet, I have to 
> agree with the above statements!
>

I looked up the wacom, and also found one called the "Acecat flair"  
it looked pretty good and was less expensive. Anyone know about it?  
Thanks, Doug M
On Nov 29, 2005, at 4:24 PM, Greg wrote:

> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Steve Kale
> <stevekale@b...> wrote:
> >
> > I honestly can't believe people do serious retouching without one.
> One of
> > the best things I ever bought.
>
> For anyone sitting on the fence about buying a tablet, I have to
> agree with the above statements!
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other  
> resources as they are often being updated.
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you  
> wish to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by  
> visiting this same page.
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>
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> PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE  
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> NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL,  
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> PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
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>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> From: john dean
>
> You've convinced me. We are going to buy the Wacom, the new Intuos3
> 6x11 next week for Robin and if I like it I'm doing the same. I
> appreciate that link too!

So for photo editing, as opposed to drawing, what useful functions does a
Wacom tablet give you in Photoshop?

--

Ciao,               Paul D. DeRocco
Paul                mailto:pderocco@...

>Retouching photos with a Wacom versus a mouse is analogous to 
>shaving with a broken beer bottle versus shaving with one of 
>Gillette's finest. Buying the tablet was one of the best things I 
>ever did. Once you get the tablet properly mapped with the monitor 
>screen (or screens) (a simple task) and get the hang of it your work 
>happens faster and more accurately ... a no-brainer if you are doing 
>graphics professionally. After that, when you pick up a mouse, you 
>feel under priviliged.

HTH,
Joe
(one man's opinion and y'all know what opinions are like)

>

Joe Dempsey Communications Co.
Office / Home 870.534.5835
Office Downtown 870.536.5758
Cell 870.550.0190
http://www.joedempseycommunications.com

speed and increased accuracy. particularly when using layer masks and 
making quick masks or using the marquis and peen tools, plus the 
Wacom brush set is pressure sensitive. When you open the brush 
editor, you can customize brushes, reorient their direction or make a 
custom brush ... all better with a tablet.
joe

At 09:31 PM 11/29/2005, you wrote:
> > From: john dean
> >
> > You've convinced me. We are going to buy the Wacom, the new Intuos3
> > 6x11 next week for Robin and if I like it I'm doing the same. I
> > appreciate that link too!
>
>So for photo editing, as opposed to drawing, what useful functions does a
>Wacom tablet give you in Photoshop?
>
>--
>
>Ciao,               Paul D. DeRocco
>Paul                mailto:pderocco@...
>
>
>
>
>Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other 
>resources as they are often being updated.
>
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
>If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish 
>to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting 
>this same page.
>
>Please follow these basic guidelines:
>- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages 
>to keep them short.
>- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or 
>flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed 
>from the membership without notice.
>- Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital 
>B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be 
>removed from the membership.
>- By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and 
>guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group 
>Owner and Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the 
>Files section:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
>
>BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE 
>PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE 
>"OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL 
>NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, 
>CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, 
>DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE 
>LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE 
>PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH 
>DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE 
>DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR 
>ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR 
>CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; 
>OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

Joe Dempsey Communications Co.
Office / Home 870.534.5835
Office Downtown 870.536.5758
Cell 870.550.0190
http://www.joedempseycommunications.com

Ability to use your hand in a natural drawing motion, as opposed to grabbing
a mouse. This sounds subtle, but for using any tools that require brushing
or drawing motions (painting a mask for example) it is great. Much less hand
fatigue and cramping with the Wacom. I have a 6 x 9 Intuous2. Using the
clone tool with the tablet is much easier as well.

It does take a little getting used to as you are drawing but not looking at
your hand. For some reason it feels odd for a while, even though it seems
natural to make the same movements with a mouse.

Some things are not as intuitive with the Wacom, drawing a complex clipping
path for example, can be difficult with the Wacom until you have practice
with some of the other hand movements. You may find that it is easier with a
mouse. No matter. You also learn to use the modifier keys on the keyboard a
little differently. I find I pick it up and put it down frequently, as it is
isn't a panacea for drawing better.

Jim


On 11/29/05 10:31 PM, "DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com"
<DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

> So for photo editing, as opposed to drawing, what useful functions does a
> Wacom tablet give you in Photoshop?

At 02:41 PM 11/29/2005, john dean wrote:


> From the days when I did use one I remember it makes sense
>to buy as large of one as possible. For me anything smaller than 11x14
>is not worth the trouble.

I'm also in the market for one ... will probably get a Wacom Intuos 3.

But as for size ... I'm also told that too big is not good, as you have to 
pull the stylus around, rather than just use smaller movements.  My 
colleagues have suggested that 4x5 is best for just retouching, 6x9 for 
drawing as well.

What do those of you who've used these have to say?


Arthur



	A r t h u r    F i n k    P h o t o g r a p h y
	-----------------------------------------------
	Ten New Island Avenue         land 207.766.5722
	Peaks Island, Maine 04108     cell 207.615.5722
	www.arthurfinkphoto.com  af@...

	 Photographing people, places, objects, events

The only downside to too big, is desk space and cost, if that matters; you
can easily program the tablet to be smaller if you want shorter
hand strokes.

Best regards,
John Moody

-----Original Message-----
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Arthur
Fink
Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2005 7:54 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com;
DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Wacom Tablet for Photoshop Retouching?

At 02:41 PM 11/29/2005, john dean wrote:


> From the days when I did use one I remember it makes sense
>to buy as large of one as possible. For me anything smaller than 11x14
>is not worth the trouble.

I'm also in the market for one ... will probably get a Wacom Intuos 3.

But as for size ... I'm also told that too big is not good, as you have to
pull the stylus around, rather than just use smaller movements.  My
colleagues have suggested that 4x5 is best for just retouching, 6x9 for
drawing as well.

What do those of you who've used these have to say?


Arthur




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Joe Dempsey
<jdempsey@c...> wrote:
>
> 
> >...Buying the tablet was one of the best things I 
> >ever did...
> 
> HTH,
> Joe
> (one man's opinion and y'all know what opinions are like)

It seems to be the opinion of at least 10 people who contributed to
this thread. No dissension, except yours. Perhaps you'd care to
explain why you disagree, instead of throwing out a cryptic (and
possibly belittling) one-liner?

Agreed.  Another ergonomic consideration is that with a tablet you'll quite
likely toss your current mouse and mouse pad.  My tablet sits in front of my
keyboard - permanently - and I use the Wacom mouse or pen for everything.
In that configuration it is nice to have an active tablet area that more
closely resembles the display.  I also like the fact that my Wacom extends
at least to the length of my keyboard because my forearms rest on the tablet
while typing.  (My keyboard is pushed slightly to the right so that the
qwerty portion of the keyboard is centred vs the tablet.)   In essence the
tablet becomes part of the desk.  Anything too small and you'd be moving the
tablet out of the way all the time.  Arguably my setup pushes the keyboard
fwd a little too much from the edge of the desk but I don't do a massive
amount of typing and so I am not bothered by the fact that my keyboard is
about 6 inches fwd of ideal. (If need be, for lengthy typing I just place my
Bluetooth keyboard on the tablet.)  So a long way of saying think about how
and where you'll place the tablet on your desk, where you'll put your
keyboard in relation to it etc.

I also don't agree with the "I don't want to have to move my hand to much"
type comments.  Cramped little movements are what causes cramps.  If you can
afford it, and the price differential isn't massive, get the bigger tablet.

I also like the fact that the grey colour fits well with the look of my
Apple G5, iSight and HK soundsticks (unfortunately I have the old-style
white-border Apple display).  If only Apple would update the style of their
Bluetooth keyboards to silver/grey.  And the only damn wire on my desk is
the one from my Wacom tablet.  Annoying!  ;-)

> From: John Moody <moodymz3@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 08:23:01 -0500
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Wacom Tablet for Photoshop Retouching?
> 
> The only downside to too big, is desk space and cost, if that matters; you
> can easily program the tablet to be smaller if you want shorter
> hand strokes.
> 
> Best regards,
> John Moody
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Arthur
> Fink
> Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2005 7:54 AM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com;
> DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Wacom Tablet for Photoshop Retouching?
> 
> At 02:41 PM 11/29/2005, john dean wrote:
> 
> 
>> From the days when I did use one I remember it makes sense
>> to buy as large of one as possible. For me anything smaller than 11x14
>> is not worth the trouble.
> 
> I'm also in the market for one ... will probably get a Wacom Intuos 3.
> 
> But as for size ... I'm also told that too big is not good, as you have to
> pull the stylus around, rather than just use smaller movements.  My
> colleagues have suggested that 4x5 is best for just retouching, 6x9 for
> drawing as well.
> 
> What do those of you who've used these have to say?
> 
> 
> Arthur
> 
>

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, James Parker
<dakota.kid@m...> wrote:
>
> Ability to use your hand in a natural drawing motion, as opposed to
grabbing
> a mouse.... (elipses mine)
 
> It does take a little getting used to as you are drawing but not
looking at
> your hand.

You know, I had a "natural drawing" class where we were expected to
draw that way most of the time. You looked at the paper every now and
then to "align" your view of the subject with the drawing, but you
stroked most of your lines while looking at the subject.

You interpret my comments wrong. I am an enthusiastic Wacom user. 
Consider it a necessity. I have a 12 x 12 Intuos II. I have the 
bottom half mapped to my dual Lacie Electron Blue IV 19's and set my 
keyboard on the top half. I made that arrangement to keep working 
when I was recovering from rotator cuff surgery and found that to be 
a better arrangement. I have the tablet mapped proportionally smaller 
to increase the pen speed. My statements about my opinion are just 
that, works for me, could for others as well. I'm not selling my 
opinion, only offering it for what's worth to those who read it.
Kindest regards,
Joe
PS and I am in total agreement with everyone who said " ... best 
things I every bought." So there!


At 07:56 AM 11/30/2005, you wrote:
>--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Joe Dempsey
><jdempsey@c...> wrote:
> >
> >
> > >...Buying the tablet was one of the best things I
> > >ever did...
> >
> > HTH,
> > Joe
> > (one man's opinion and y'all know what opinions are like)
>
>It seems to be the opinion of at least 10 people who contributed to
>this thread. No dissension, except yours. Perhaps you'd care to
>explain why you disagree, instead of throwing out a cryptic (and
>possibly belittling) one-liner?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other 
>resources as they are often being updated.
>
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
>If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish 
>to unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting 
>this same page.
>
>Please follow these basic guidelines:
>- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages 
>to keep them short.
>- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or 
>flames. Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed 
>from the membership without notice.
>- Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital 
>B&W printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be 
>removed from the membership.
>- By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and 
>guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group 
>Owner and Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the 
>Files section:
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
>
>BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE 
>PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE 
>"OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL 
>NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, 
>CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, 
>DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE 
>LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  "OWNER" AND "MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE 
>PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH 
>DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE 
>DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR 
>ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR 
>CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; 
>OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
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>
>
>

Joe Dempsey Communications Co.
Office / Home 870.534.5835
Office Downtown 870.536.5758
Cell 870.550.0190
http://www.joedempseycommunications.com

Paul:

Drawing precise mask outlines, for one thing.

Best.... Jack Winberg

At 10:31 PM 11/29/2005, you wrote:
>From: "Paul D. DeRocco" <pderocco@...>
>Subject: RE: Wacom Tablet for Photoshop Retouching?
>
>So for photo editing, as opposed to drawing, what useful functions does a
>Wacom tablet give you in Photoshop?
>
>--
>
>Ciao,               Paul D. DeRocco
>Paul                mailto:pderocco@...


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Steve:

Can you please expand on exactly why your would NOT recommend the 
Graphire tablet, as opposed to the Intuos?  I have happily used the 
former for years, tried the Intuos, and did NOT find any significant 
difference, but have heard passionate arguments in favor of the Intuos.

Thanks..... Jack Winberg

At 10:31 PM 11/29/2005, you wrote:
>Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 21:11:43 +0000
>    From: Steve Kale <stevekale@...>
>Subject: Re: Wacom Tablet for Photoshop Retouching?
>
>I honestly can't believe people do serious retouching without one.  One of
>the best things I ever bought.  I have the Intuos 2 30x23cm.  Would not want
>anything smaller if you can afford it.  Annoyingly they still aren't
>bluetooth enabled (except for the little Graphire which I would not
>recommend)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "John Moody" 
<moodymz3@y...> wrote:
>
> The only downside to too big, is desk space and cost, if that 
matters; you
> can easily program the tablet to be smaller if you want shorter
> hand strokes.
> 

Sometime in the future I plan on building the "computing" station 
around the tablet. If editing images is primarily what you are doing, 
something similar to a drafting table to hold the digitiser, and a 
monitor on an arm or self over the top, maybe a compact keyboard 
mounted somewhere near the tablet, and/or program a bunch of "hot keys" 
onto the tablet. My Calcomp has 10 or 12 hotkey areas that could be 
programmed for several different functions plus the ability to map 
certain areas for more "function" keys.

I will say that the Wacom Cintiq looks like it would be best for me, 
now if I could only scare up the $2500 to buy it.

I refer you to my post 70651.  4x5 is cheapest too and totally suited
for all photoshopping.  Just zoom your work on screen and you can be
pixel perfect!
Steve
http://www.virtuallygrey.co.uk/

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Arthur Fink
<af@a...> wrote:
>
> At 02:41 PM 11/29/2005, john dean wrote:
> 
> 
> > From the days when I did use one I remember it makes sense
> >to buy as large of one as possible. For me anything smaller than 11x14
> >is not worth the trouble.
> 
> I'm also in the market for one ... will probably get a Wacom Intuos 3.
> 
> But as for size ... I'm also told that too big is not good, as you
have to 

> pull the stylus around, rather than just use smaller movements.  My 
> colleagues have suggested that 4x5 is best for just retouching, 6x9 for 
> drawing as well.
> 
> What do those of you who've used these have to say?
> 
> 
> Arthur
> 
> 
> 
> 	A r t h u r    F i n k    P h o t o g r a p h y
> 	-----------------------------------------------
> 	Ten New Island Avenue         land 207.766.5722
> 	Peaks Island, Maine 04108     cell 207.615.5722
> 	www.arthurfinkphoto.com  af@a...
> 
> 	 Photographing people, places, objects, events
>

I simply regard it as too small and if one is buying one from scratch I'd
purchase (if I could afford it) the one with the greater functionality.  For
more on the latter take a read through Wacom's website.

> From: Jack Winberg <jack.winberg@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 09:51:08 -0500
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Wacom Tablet for Photoshop Retouching?
> 
> Steve:
> 
> Can you please expand on exactly why your would NOT recommend the
> Graphire tablet, as opposed to the Intuos?  I have happily used the
> former for years, tried the Intuos, and did NOT find any significant
> difference, but have heard passionate arguments in favor of the Intuos.
> 
> Thanks..... Jack Winberg

I might be in the "ignorance is bliss" position, but I've been waiting for
the image to be on the tablet.  They're here now, but just too expensive.
Are the tablet PC touch screens getting to the point where they may be
useable for our purposes?

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

> From: Steve Kale
>
> Agreed.  Another ergonomic consideration is that with a tablet
> you'll quite
> likely toss your current mouse and mouse pad.  My tablet sits in
> front of my
> keyboard - permanently - and I use the Wacom mouse or pen for everything.

But don't you have to pick up the pen, and move it to the tablet, whenever
you want to use it? That sounds less convenient than just putting your hand
on a mouse and moving it around.

Sounds good for what it's intended, but not for general mouse use,
especially when bouncing back and forth between it and the keyboard.

--

Ciao,               Paul D. DeRocco
Paul                mailto:pderocco@...

Paul,
I have experience with large, fantastically expensive touch screens; many
hundreds of hours.
For what _we_ do, I think the pointing device would actually be in the way,
and that applies to the Cintiq as well.  With the tablets, having a
configurable size and shape pointer, that can even be turned off as well is
a benefit for photo work, IMO.

Best regards,
John Moody

-----Original Message-----
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Paul Roark
Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2005 11:32 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Re: Wacom Tablet for Photoshop Retouching?

I might be in the "ignorance is bliss" position, but I've been waiting for
the image to be on the tablet.  They're here now, but just too expensive.
Are the tablet PC touch screens getting to the point where they may be
useable for our purposes?

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Paul

It comes with a mouse and pen.  So my pen sits in the cradle provided and my
mouse sits on the tablet.  When I start a retouching session I push the
mouse off the active area of the tablet and pick up the pen.  The pen can
just lie on the tablet when not in use if you like but the mouse and pen are
mutually exclusive ie can't be used at the same time.  So for general use my
mouse is there when I want it.  Exactly the same as using a mouse and mouse
pad.

Steve

> From: "Paul D. DeRocco" <pderocco@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 09:35:13 -0800
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Wacom Tablet for Photoshop Retouching?
> 
>> From: Steve Kale
>> 
>> Agreed.  Another ergonomic consideration is that with a tablet
>> you'll quite
>> likely toss your current mouse and mouse pad.  My tablet sits in
>> front of my
>> keyboard - permanently - and I use the Wacom mouse or pen for everything.
> 
> But don't you have to pick up the pen, and move it to the tablet, whenever
> you want to use it? That sounds less convenient than just putting your hand
> on a mouse and moving it around.
> 
> Sounds good for what it's intended, but not for general mouse use,
> especially when bouncing back and forth between it and the keyboard.
> 
> --
> 
> Ciao,               Paul D. DeRocco
> Paul                mailto:pderocco@...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as
> they are often being updated.
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to
> unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same
> page.
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames.
> Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the membership
> without notice.
> - Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W
> printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from the
> membership.
> - By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and
> guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and
> Moderators. See „Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines‰ in the Files section:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/
> 
> BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT
> YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE „OWNER‰ AND
> „MODERATORS‰ OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU
> FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY
> DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL,
> USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  „OWNER‰ AND „MODERATORS‰ OF
> DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH
> DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW,
> THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR
> TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE
> DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE
> DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.
>  
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
>  
> 
>

Although most of their monitors are not pressure sensitive, and their power
may not be up to snuff yet, the evolution of these really interests me.  I
think they'll bring together a very interesting set of features at an
affordable price.  I was wondering if anyone has experience with them.

http://www.tabletpcdemo.com/landing_page_content.html

http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/using/digitalphotography/expert/honeycutt
_03may16.mspx

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Paul,

I have a Motion 1400 tablet PC that I have used intensively for nine 
months, although primarily for non-graphics applications.  It is 
a "slate" model rather than a convertible, although a USB keyboard is 
available.  I use it primarily for taking and organizing notes and 
find that it works well.   It is about the size of a pad of paper and 
comfortable on my lap.  The screen is bright and the resoultion 
appears excellent.  I find that for the first time I can read 
documents and newspapers directly on-screen as holding the tablet in 
my lap is much like reading a magazine or newspaper.  (I cannot read 
anything but a brief not on a conventional screen comfortably.)  The 
operating system is well thought out and well adapted to using a pen 
rather than a keyboard and mouse.  Power has not been an issue with 
the programs I have run.

That said, I am not sure it is there yet for photographic purposes.  
First, it would be an expensive "touch pad" as I suspect the screen 
quality is not sufficient for doing a wide range of work with 
Photoshop.  Second, while the pen works well for writing and 
pointing, I am not confident that it provides the degree of control 
you get with a Wacom pad.  

If you get a chance, you should try one out.  The Tablet PC software 
has improved markedly and there are a number of interesting programs 
available that take advange of pen input well.  If find, that even 
with my scrawl, the handwriting recognition works well enough to use 
regularly.  I am a fan.

Steve



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" 
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
>
> Although most of their monitors are not pressure sensitive, and 
their power
> may not be up to snuff yet, the evolution of these really interests 
me.  I
> think they'll bring together a very interesting set of features at 
an
> affordable price.  I was wondering if anyone has experience with 
them.
> 
> http://www.tabletpcdemo.com/landing_page_content.html
> 
> 
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/using/digitalphotography/expert/hon
eycutt

> _03may16.mspx
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
>

> From: Steve Kale
> 
> It comes with a mouse and pen.  So my pen sits in the cradle 
> provided and my
> mouse sits on the tablet.  When I start a retouching session I push the
> mouse off the active area of the tablet and pick up the pen.  The pen can
> just lie on the tablet when not in use if you like but the mouse 
> and pen are
> mutually exclusive ie can't be used at the same time.  So for 
> general use my
> mouse is there when I want it.  Exactly the same as using a mouse 
> and mouse pad.

Oh, I see. So does the mouse use the tablet as its sensing device, meaning it only works on the tablet? Is it a good responsive mouse, with a scroll wheel that functions like a middle button?

-- 

Ciao,               Paul D. DeRocco
Paul                mailto:pderocco@...

> From: "Paul D. DeRocco" <pderocco@...>

> 
> Oh, I see. So does the mouse use the tablet as its sensing device, meaning it
> only works on the tablet?

Yes

>Is it a good responsive mouse,

Yes

>with a scroll wheel
> that functions like a middle button?
> 

I'm not sure what you mean by a "middle button" but it has 4 click keys and
a scroll wheel.

One criticism I have of it is that the felt padding on its base tends to
collect dirt over time and also get worn.  It would be nice if they included
a few spare strips of the felt so that it could be periodically replaced.

> From: Steve Kale <stevekale@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 22:02:34 +0000
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Conversation: [Digital BW] Wacom Tablet for Photoshop Retouching?
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Wacom Tablet for Photoshop Retouching?
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> From: "Paul D. DeRocco" <pderocco@...>
> 
>> 
>> Oh, I see. So does the mouse use the tablet as its sensing device, meaning it
>> only works on the tablet?
> 
> Yes
> 
>> Is it a good responsive mouse,
> 
> Yes
> 
>> with a scroll wheel
>> that functions like a middle button?
>> 
> 
> I'm not sure what you mean by a "middle button" but it has 4 click keys and
> a scroll wheel.

> From: Steve Kale
>
> I'm not sure what you mean by a "middle button" but it has 4
> click keys and a scroll wheel.

My mouse has a scroll wheel between the left and right buttons, but it also
functions as a middle button if you press on it, and I use that in lieu of
double-click. Is the Wacom wheel just a wheel, or can you press it as a
button, too? Where are the four "click keys" located?

--

Ciao,               Paul D. DeRocco
Paul                mailto:pderocco@...

The mouse has been updated from my version.  There is an image here:

http://www.wacom.com/productinfo/intuos.cfm

But yes I can press the scroll wheel.  I never have to double click anything
- Mac.

> From: "Paul D. DeRocco" <pderocco@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2005 14:17:49 -0800
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Wacom Tablet for Photoshop Retouching?
> 
>> From: Steve Kale
>> 
>> I'm not sure what you mean by a "middle button" but it has 4
>> click keys and a scroll wheel.
> 
> My mouse has a scroll wheel between the left and right buttons, but it also
> functions as a middle button if you press on it, and I use that in lieu of
> double-click. Is the Wacom wheel just a wheel, or can you press it as a
> button, too? Where are the four "click keys" located?
> 
> --
> 
> Ciao,               Paul D. DeRocco
> Paul                mailto:pderocco@...

It only functions as a scrolling bar near as I can
tell. It will "click" when you press it but nothing
seems to happen as a result. Mine also has buttons on
both sides which act as forward and backward page
commands i.e. you can back or forward browse in your
email for example. 

Woody Spedden
--- "Paul D. DeRocco" <pderocco@...> wrote:


---------------------------------
> From: Steve Kale
>
> I'm not sure what you mean by a "middle button" but
it has 4
> click keys and a scroll wheel.

My mouse has a scroll wheel between the left and right
buttons, but it also
functions as a middle button if you press on it, and I
use that in lieu of
double-click. Is the Wacom wheel just a wheel, or can
you press it as a
button, too? Where are the four "click keys" located?

--

Ciao,               Paul D. DeRocco
Paul                mailto:pderocco@...



Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files,
and other resources as they are often being updated.

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If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily
digest, or you wish to unsubscribe, please edit your
Membership preferences by visiting this same page.

Please follow these basic guidelines:
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earlier messages to keep them short.
- Good manners are required at all time. No personal
attacks or flames. Hostile, aggressive or
argumentative users may be removed from the membership
without notice.
- Keep your posts and threads related to the group
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make off-topic posts may be removed from the
membership.
- By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the
group rules and guidelines, and to abide by the
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BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS,
GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN
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> From: Steve Kale
>
> The mouse has been updated from my version.  There is an image here:
>
> http://www.wacom.com/productinfo/intuos.cfm
>
> But yes I can press the scroll wheel.  I never have to double
> click anything
> - Mac.

Thanks for taking the time to answer. I'm picky about my user interface, and
have returned several mice that I didn't like. But I've been tempted by a
tablet for a long time. Unfortunately, they're not the kind of thing you
find set up to try out at Best Buy.

--

Ciao,               Paul D. DeRocco
Paul                mailto:pderocco@...

> From: Elwood Spedden
>
> It only functions as a scrolling bar near as I can
> tell. It will "click" when you press it but nothing
> seems to happen as a result. Mine also has buttons on
> both sides which act as forward and backward page
> commands i.e. you can back or forward browse in your
> email for example.

With most mice, there is a configuration utility that lets you assign the
non-standard buttons to anything you want. I had to explicitly tell my
Logitech mouse to use the middle button as equivalent to double-clicking the
left button.

--

Ciao,               Paul D. DeRocco
Paul                mailto:pderocco@...

You know a number of tools become alive with a tablet.  The smudge tool for one.  with a mouse it was like painting with a shovel, with the pen you move pixels like frosting on a cake, like finger painting.  I retouch a lot now by using the smudge tool to gently wipe the face like crumps off a baby's face.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thanks Paul........That may well be the case here. I
will check and post results.

Woody Spedden

--- "Paul D. DeRocco" <pderocco@...> wrote:


---------------------------------
>

On mine the roller when clicked allows using the entire mouse to move
the onscreen image about. I have the small 4x5 Intuos. I would use the
next size larger if I had space for it.

Regards
Duane





--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Elwood Spedden
<elwood@w...> wrote:

>
> It only functions as a scrolling bar near as I can
> tell. It will "click" when you press it but nothing
> seems to happen as a result. Mine also has buttons on
> both sides which act as forward and backward page
> commands i.e. you can back or forward browse in your
> email for example. 
> 
> Woody Spedden
> --- "Paul D. DeRocco" <pderocco@i...> wrote:
> 
>