Digital BW, The Print

Sorry for posting this here but I'd prefer the conversation to be a little further away from 
public colour forums for reasons which will become apparent.  Respond off-list if 
appropriate.

Has anyone tried running Bill's reference files and targets through EyeOne Match?  He uses 
his 4096 patch target for his new 9800 profiles.  Match can't read these because it seems to 
be limited to 119 rows of data.  It can measure wider (more columns) but the ruler isn't wide 
enough.  (Bill's targets are 32 columns wide - the max for the i1 ruler - while the default 
Match targets 27.)  So if you load Bill's 4096 reference file in Match you can't measure the last 
9 rows.

Obviously MeasureTool can read the 4096 patch target but the data still needs to be 
processed into an ICC profile by a profiling application.  That's fine if you have the very 
expensive PM5 but I'm wondering if Match can process a higher observation data set than it 
can read.  For example, if one read the data with MeasureTool, saved it and then loaded the 
measured data into Match would the profile use all the data points?  If anyone has dabbled 
with this I'd be very interested.

Steve Kale wrote:

> Has anyone tried running Bill's reference files and targets through EyeOne Match?  He uses 
> his 4096 patch target for his new 9800 profiles.  Match can't read these because it seems to 
> be limited to 119 rows of data.  It can measure wider (more columns) but the ruler isn't wide 
> enough.  (Bill's targets are 32 columns wide - the max for the i1 ruler - while the default 
> Match targets 27.)  So if you load Bill's 4096 reference file in Match you can't measure the last 
> 9 rows.


Colorport could transform the target lay-out for you so can 
use it with Match. 27 patches per row instead of 32. To get 
the new lay-out you can use the data file of Bill's targets in 
Colorport. There's an issue with spectral limitation in 
Colorport but as I understand it that only is when you use it 
for measuring too.


If you do not distribute that new lay-out I do not see license 
problems either :-)

Might be easier to make another ruler that is longer. I have 
done that for the Spectrocam so I could print somewhat larger 
patches.


                    --
           Ernst Dinkla


www.pigment-print.com
(         unvollendet         )

Actually it's simpler than that.  I took a flyer and tried it - reading 128
rows of patches is not a lot of fun.  I wouldn't dream of offering a
profiling service without an EyeOne IO.

Use MeasureTool to read the chart and then load it in Match for the
compilation to an ICC profile. (You need to change the reference file name
you are using to one expected by Match.)  All the observations are there in
the profile.  Big profile though:  1.7MB.  (GM have confirmed that Match
uses the same algorithms as PM5 at its "default settings".)

FYI Colorlab (povided free but unsupported by GM) is great for making new
targets if you ever have to.

(FYI the limitation is on the number of rows so making a new target with 27
patches wide would exacerbate the issue.  And I'm sure there is no
limitation on developing targets and distributing them - just the profiles
made from them.)

> From: Ernst Dinkla <E.Dinkla@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Fri, 09 Dec 2005 14:16:50 +0100
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Bill Atkinson's Target Reference Files
> 
> Steve Kale wrote:
> 
>> Has anyone tried running Bill's reference files and targets through EyeOne
>> Match?  He uses 
>> his 4096 patch target for his new 9800 profiles.  Match can't read these
>> because it seems to
>> be limited to 119 rows of data.  It can measure wider (more columns) but the
>> ruler isn't wide
>> enough.  (Bill's targets are 32 columns wide - the max for the i1 ruler -
>> while the default
>> Match targets 27.)  So if you load Bill's 4096 reference file in Match you
>> can't measure the last
>> 9 rows.
> 
> 
> Colorport could transform the target lay-out for you so can
> use it with Match. 27 patches per row instead of 32. To get
> the new lay-out you can use the data file of Bill's targets in
> Colorport. There's an issue with spectral limitation in
> Colorport but as I understand it that only is when you use it
> for measuring too.
> 
> 
> If you do not distribute that new lay-out I do not see license
> problems either :-)
> 
> Might be easier to make another ruler that is longer. I have
> done that for the Spectrocam so I could print somewhat larger
> patches.
> 
> 
>                     --
>            Ernst Dinkla
> 
> 
> www.pigment-print.com
> (         unvollendet         )

Steve Kale wrote:
> Actually it's simpler than that.  I took a flyer and tried it - reading 128
> rows of patches is not a lot of fun.  I wouldn't dream of offering a
> profiling service without an EyeOne IO.

I have changed an HP pen plotter to drive the SpectroCam. Will 
put the pros and cons of that on my website one day.

> Use MeasureTool to read the chart and then load it in Match for the
> compilation to an ICC profile. (You need to change the reference file name
> you are using to one expected by Match.)  All the observations are there in
> the profile.  Big profile though:  1.7MB.  (GM have confirmed that Match
> uses the same algorithms as PM5 at its "default settings".)
> 
> FYI Colorlab (povided free but unsupported by GM) is great for making new
> targets if you ever have to.
> 
> (FYI the limitation is on the number of rows so making a new target with 27
> patches wide would exacerbate the issue.  And I'm sure there is no
> limitation on developing targets and distributing them - just the profiles
> made from them.)

Making a longer ruler would work then or has it a general 
limitation in total patch number reading but not that limit in 
actual profile creation ?

Colorport has the usual restriction on profile distribution 
(but it can't make a profile itself) but there's an other 
alinea that says: Restrictions.  In addition to other 
restrictions set forth in this Agreement, You may not (a) use, 
copy, modify or distribute the Software (electronically or 
otherwise) or any copy, adaptation, transcription or merged 
portion thereof except as expressly authorized under this 
Agreement; (b) use the Software for the benefit of third 
parties in a commercial, retail, service bureau or similar 
enterprise, except as permitted under this Agreement;

The last could be interpreted as "lay-outs created with it can 
not be distributed (commercially)". I get the impression they 
just copied the license from another piece of software as 
there are some contradictions between the text and how 
Colorport is distributed.


                    --
           Ernst Dinkla


www.pigment-print.com
(         unvollendet         )

> From: Ernst Dinkla <E.Dinkla@...>

> 
> I have changed an HP pen plotter to drive the SpectroCam. Will
> put the pros and cons of that on my website one day.
> 

> 
> Making a longer ruler would work then or has it a general
> limitation in total patch number reading but not that limit in
> actual profile creation ?

Not sure but from what I see it is a row number limitation.  Easy to test by
making different reference files in a text editor and trying them.  You'd
have to reformulate the tiff file but that's easy with Colorlab.

At any rate the question is moot with MeasureTool available. (You don't need
to have a dongle to use it to read a target.)
> 
> Colorport has the usual restriction on profile distribution
> (but it can't make a profile itself) but there's an other
> alinea that says: Restrictions.  In addition to other
> restrictions set forth in this Agreement, You may not (a) use,
> copy, modify or distribute the Software (electronically or
> otherwise) or any copy, adaptation, transcription or merged
> portion thereof except as expressly authorized under this
> Agreement; (b) use the Software for the benefit of third
> parties in a commercial, retail, service bureau or similar
> enterprise, except as permitted under this Agreement;
> 
> The last could be interpreted as "lay-outs created with it can
> not be distributed (commercially)". I get the impression they
> just copied the license from another piece of software as
> there are some contradictions between the text and how
> Colorport is distributed.
> 

GM's Colorlab has no restrictions at all.  It doesn't make profiles but,
amongst other things, it generates tiff targets from reference files
(created with a simple text editor).  I doubt anyone cares if you make and
circulate a new target/ref file - that's not where the "juice" is. Bill
Atkinson's 918 target eventually became something of an industry standard.
There also isn't any "juice" in the measurement data - on its own it's
useless.  The "juice" is in the algorithms that take that data and generate
profiles, ie the gamut mapping.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Ernst Dinkla 
<E.Dinkla@c...> wrote:
> 
> I have changed an HP pen plotter to drive the SpectroCam. Will 
> put the pros and cons of that on my website one day.

That's a good idea! I had thought of building something out of an old 
scanner or printer and a microcontroller, but the plotter idea is even 
better. I just might have to hit ebay for one of those old plotters.

Greg wrote:
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Ernst Dinkla 
> <E.Dinkla@c...> wrote:
>> I have changed an HP pen plotter to drive the SpectroCam. Will 
>> put the pros and cons of that on my website one day.
> 
> That's a good idea! I had thought of building something out of an old 
> scanner or printer and a microcontroller, but the plotter idea is even 
> better. I just might have to hit ebay for one of those old plotters.

Be aware of one thing. the old HP penplotters came in two 
variations. The serial driven and an odd parallel type used in 
labaratories with a special daisy chain cable. I got one of 
the last type and had to change the connector  + find another 
kind of driver. It works now but try to get the serial one is 
my suggestion.

                    --
           Ernst Dinkla


www.pigment-print.com
(         unvollendet         )

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Ernst Dinkla 
<E.Dinkla@c...> wrote:
> 
> Be aware of one thing. the old HP penplotters came in two 
> variations. The serial driven and an odd parallel type used in 
> labaratories with a special daisy chain cable. I got one of 
> the last type and had to change the connector  + find another 
> kind of driver. It works now but try to get the serial one is 
> my suggestion.
> 


I was thinking of just using the table and motors, and still making a 
microcontroller control things.

The other option is to build a CNC device from one of the many kits 
available, which is probably the best idea.