Digital BW, The Print

Steve,

You wrote:

>I just saw my first digital BW prints from an Epson 1160 using the
>piezography inks. They looked vary good. ...
>Are the Epson printers and piezography inks the best way to go
>or are there other printers and or inks that can do just as
>well or better ... ?

Most on this list use Epson printers with either Piezo inks or MIS inks
(inksupply.com).

I started with Piezo and now print the MIS VM variable-tone inkset with the
Epson driver.  It gives me control over the tone of the print (Piezo is
warm -- I wanted neutral or cool to match my silver prints, but note that
the MIS VM inkset also can print warmer than Piezo), bands less (meaning
virtually never) in my 1160, and gives deeper blacks than the Piezo system.

Also the MIS inks are much cheaper and, from a new purchaser's perspective,
there is no software to buy.  So, it's very cheap to buy a cartridge of MIS
VM inks and give them a try.  The cost of trying Piezo is rather steep,
however.

Either way, top notch prints are definitely what you should expect from
either approach.

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com

Thanks Paul, the warm tone is one of the things I did not like about 
the Piezo prints. Not that warm prints are bad I just think I lean 
toward the cooler tones also. Do the MIS inks have the same archival 
qualities as the Piezo inks?

Steve Schaefer

 --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Paul Roark" <
paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> Steve,
> 
> You wrote:
> 
> >I just saw my first digital BW prints from an Epson 1160 using the
> >piezography inks. They looked vary good. ...
> >Are the Epson printers and piezography inks the best way to go
> >or are there other printers and or inks that can do just as
> >well or better ... ?
> 
> Most on this list use Epson printers with either Piezo inks or MIS
inks
> (inksupply.com).
> 
> I started with Piezo and now print the MIS VM variable-tone inkset
with the
> Epson driver.  It gives me control over the tone of the print
(Piezo is
> warm -- I wanted neutral or cool to match my silver prints, but
note that
> the MIS VM inkset also can print warmer than Piezo), bands less
(meaning
> virtually never) in my 1160, and gives deeper blacks than the Piezo
system.
> 
> Also the MIS inks are much cheaper and, from a new purchaser's
perspective,
> there is no software to buy.  So, it's very cheap to buy a
cartridge of MIS
> VM inks and give them a try.  The cost of trying Piezo is rather
steep,
> however.
> 
> Either way, top notch prints are definitely what you should expect
from

> either approach.
> 
> Paul
> http://www.PaulRoark.com

> I started with Piezo and now print the MIS VM variable-tone
> inkset with the
> Epson driver.  It gives me control over the tone of the print (Piezo is
> warm -- I wanted neutral or cool to match my silver prints, but note that
> the MIS VM inkset also can print warmer than Piezo), bands less (meaning
> virtually never) in my 1160, and gives deeper blacks than the
> Piezo system.
>
> Also the MIS inks are much cheaper and, from a new purchaser's
> perspective,
> there is no software to buy.  So, it's very cheap to buy a
> cartridge of MIS
> VM inks and give them a try.  The cost of trying Piezo is rather steep,
> however.
>
> Either way, top notch prints are definitely what you should expect from
> either approach.
>
> Paul
> http://www.PaulRoark.com

Hi Paul,

A question on using the MIS VM inks, and non-piezo driver...since I've never
used that setup at all, I have no idea...but can you view what your image is
going to look like on screen before printing?  Is it as "easy" as the Piezo
driver to print not using the Piezo driver?  What about paper profiling, is
that pretty much covered also?

Cone et al, say that they print at 2160, but I can't substantiate
that...what's your take on that?

Regards,

Austin

Steve, If you've bought Piezo but want a cooler tone, try MIS FS. You use
the piezo driver and the FS inks. The only difference you'll notice is a
cooler print, no clogs, no greenies, and a healthier bank balance.

Julian
----- Original Message -----
From: "steven0356" <stevenr@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2002 9:18 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Best method for printing BW


> Thanks Paul, the warm tone is one of the things I did not like about
> the Piezo prints. Not that warm prints are bad I just think I lean
> toward the cooler tones also. Do the MIS inks have the same archival
> qualities as the Piezo inks?
>
> Steve Schaefer
>
>  --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Paul Roark" <
> paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> > Steve,
> >
> > You wrote:
> >
> > >I just saw my first digital BW prints from an Epson 1160 using the
> > >piezography inks. They looked vary good. ...
> > >Are the Epson printers and piezography inks the best way to go
> > >or are there other printers and or inks that can do just as
> > >well or better ... ?
> >
> > Most on this list use Epson printers with either Piezo inks or MIS
> inks
> > (inksupply.com).
> >
> > I started with Piezo and now print the MIS VM variable-tone inkset
> with the
> > Epson driver.  It gives me control over the tone of the print
> (Piezo is
> > warm -- I wanted neutral or cool to match my silver prints, but
> note that
> > the MIS VM inkset also can print warmer than Piezo), bands less
> (meaning
> > virtually never) in my 1160, and gives deeper blacks than the Piezo
> system.
> >
> > Also the MIS inks are much cheaper and, from a new purchaser's
> perspective,
> > there is no software to buy.  So, it's very cheap to buy a
> cartridge of MIS
> > VM inks and give them a try.  The cost of trying Piezo is rather
> steep,
> > however.
> >
> > Either way, top notch prints are definitely what you should expect
> from
> > either approach.
> >
> > Paul
> > http://www.PaulRoark.com
>
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
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> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
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> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.

>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

Steve,

The 1280, MIS Variable tone inks and Paul Roark's curves can do every
bit as good as the Piezo system at about 1/5 of the price. Plus, you
have your choice of any color tone from warm to very cold, or anything
in between. 

Jerry.  

Been using the system for about a year now, and it absolutely equals
piezo quality in all respects.



steven0356 wrote:

> 
> I just saw my first digital BW prints from an Epson 1160 using the
> piezography inks. They looked vary good. Not at all like a bad RC print
> like I have seen printed digitally in the past . Are the Epson printers
> and piezography inks the best way to go our are there other printers
> and or inks that can do just as will or better then Epson's with the
> piezography inks.
> 
> I think I already know the answer after reading all of your post for
> the last few days, but I thought  I would ask it anyway
> 
> I am glad I found this list.
> 
> Steve Schaefer
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various resources on the homepage.
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

I believe MIS says 100 years plus

Jerry



steven0356 wrote:

> 
> Thanks Paul, the warm tone is one of the things I did not like about
> the Piezo prints. Not that warm prints are bad I just think I lean
> toward the cooler tones also. Do the MIS inks have the same archival
> qualities as the Piezo inks?
> 
> Steve Schaefer
> 
>  --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Paul Roark" <
> paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> > Steve,
> >
> > You wrote:
> >
> > >I just saw my first digital BW prints from an Epson 1160 using the
> > >piezography inks. They looked vary good. ...
> > >Are the Epson printers and piezography inks the best way to go
> > >or are there other printers and or inks that can do just as
> > >well or better ... ?
> >
> > Most on this list use Epson printers with either Piezo inks or MIS
> inks
> > (inksupply.com).
> >
> > I started with Piezo and now print the MIS VM variable-tone inkset
> with the
> > Epson driver.  It gives me control over the tone of the print
> (Piezo is
> > warm -- I wanted neutral or cool to match my silver prints, but
> note that
> > the MIS VM inkset also can print warmer than Piezo), bands less
> (meaning
> > virtually never) in my 1160, and gives deeper blacks than the Piezo
> system.
> >
> > Also the MIS inks are much cheaper and, from a new purchaser's
> perspective,
> > there is no software to buy.  So, it's very cheap to buy a
> cartridge of MIS
> > VM inks and give them a try.  The cost of trying Piezo is rather
> steep,
> > however.
> >
> > Either way, top notch prints are definitely what you should expect
> from
> > either approach.
> >
> > Paul
> > http://www.PaulRoark.com
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various resources on the homepage.
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Julian, I understood the FS inks were the Cone Clone, meaning brownish
prints. Shouldn't he be trying the VM varibable tone inks?

Jerry



Julian Thomas wrote:

> 
> Steve, If you've bought Piezo but want a cooler tone, try MIS FS. You use
> the piezo driver and the FS inks. The only difference you'll notice is a
> cooler print, no clogs, no greenies, and a healthier bank balance.
> 
> Julian
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "steven0356" <stevenr@...>
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2002 9:18 PM
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Best method for printing BW
> 
> > Thanks Paul, the warm tone is one of the things I did not like about
> > the Piezo prints. Not that warm prints are bad I just think I lean
> > toward the cooler tones also. Do the MIS inks have the same archival
> > qualities as the Piezo inks?
> >
> > Steve Schaefer
> >
> >  --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Paul Roark" <
> > paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> > > Steve,
> > >
> > > You wrote:
> > >
> > > >I just saw my first digital BW prints from an Epson 1160 using the
> > > >piezography inks. They looked vary good. ...
> > > >Are the Epson printers and piezography inks the best way to go
> > > >or are there other printers and or inks that can do just as
> > > >well or better ... ?
> > >
> > > Most on this list use Epson printers with either Piezo inks or MIS
> > inks
> > > (inksupply.com).
> > >
> > > I started with Piezo and now print the MIS VM variable-tone inkset
> > with the
> > > Epson driver.  It gives me control over the tone of the print
> > (Piezo is
> > > warm -- I wanted neutral or cool to match my silver prints, but
> > note that
> > > the MIS VM inkset also can print warmer than Piezo), bands less
> > (meaning
> > > virtually never) in my 1160, and gives deeper blacks than the Piezo
> > system.
> > >
> > > Also the MIS inks are much cheaper and, from a new purchaser's
> > perspective,
> > > there is no software to buy.  So, it's very cheap to buy a
> > cartridge of MIS
> > > VM inks and give them a try.  The cost of trying Piezo is rather
> > steep,
> > > however.
> > >
> > > Either way, top notch prints are definitely what you should expect
> > from
> > > either approach.
> > >
> > > Paul
> > > http://www.PaulRoark.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
> other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> >
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> >
> > Please follow these basic guidelines:
> > - Include your full name with your message.
> > - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
> > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> > - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
> resources on the homepage.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various resources on the homepage.
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

> The 1280, MIS Variable tone inks and Paul Roark's curves can do every
> bit as good as the Piezo system at about 1/5 of the price. Plus, you
> have your choice of any color tone from warm to very cold, or anything
> in between.
>
> Jerry.
>
> Been using the system for about a year now, and it absolutely equals
> piezo quality in all respects.

Jerry,

I've been very happy with the Piezo "stuff" for a while now, but you guys
have my interest piqued about your workflow.  My main concern is
WYSIWYG...is that the case with your workflow, is what is on your screen
what comes out the printer?  Are adjustments in PS the same, IE, no special
considerations?  What are the downsides to your workflow?

Regards,

Austin

> I've been very happy with the Piezo "stuff" for a while now, but you guys
> have my interest piqued about your workflow.  My main concern is
> WYSIWYG...is that the case with your workflow, is what is on your screen
> what comes out the printer?  Are adjustments in PS the same, IE, no special
> considerations?  What are the downsides to your workflow?

Austin

First off you need to convert your grayscale file to RGB for printing. You
can work your file in grayscale up until you are about to print, then
convert in order to apply Roark's curves. At that point your file will look
wacky and will no longer be WYSIWYG, but it *was up until then.

*Myself and Jerry actually find that our prints come out a bit darker than
our screen images, but I don't know about other users, and if it's a
calibration thing unique to our systems, or a function of the process. I've
just learned to anticipate the situation much as I did dry-down in the
darkroom. However by creating a custom dot gain preview, or a transfer
function, it can be overcome, though I haven't done so yet. I happen to
apply an adjustment layer to compensate, and Jerry uses a slider in the
Epson driver. None the less up until Roark's curves are applied the image is
relatively WYSIWIG, I'd guess within about 15-20% density on my system.

Todd

I've also found my prints coming out a bit darker (VM on 1160). I 
agree that adjusting for the difference is not difficult, since 
contrast and tonal relationships remain the same.

Chris


DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Todd Flashner <tflash@e...> wrote:
>  
> > I've been very happy with the Piezo "stuff" for a while now, but 
you guys
> > have my interest piqued about your workflow.  My main concern is
> > WYSIWYG...is that the case with your workflow, is what is on your 
screen
> > what comes out the printer?  Are adjustments in PS the same, IE, 
no special
> > considerations?  What are the downsides to your workflow?
> 
> Austin
> 
> First off you need to convert your grayscale file to RGB for 
printing. You
> can work your file in grayscale up until you are about to print, 
then
> convert in order to apply Roark's curves. At that point your file 
will look
> wacky and will no longer be WYSIWYG, but it *was up until then.
> 
> *Myself and Jerry actually find that our prints come out a bit 
darker than
> our screen images, but I don't know about other users, and if it's a
> calibration thing unique to our systems, or a function of the 
process. I've
> just learned to anticipate the situation much as I did dry-down in 
the
> darkroom. However by creating a custom dot gain preview, or a 
transfer
> function, it can be overcome, though I haven't done so yet. I 
happen to
> apply an adjustment layer to compensate, and Jerry uses a slider in 
the
> Epson driver. None the less up until Roark's curves are applied the 
image is
> relatively WYSIWIG, I'd guess within about 15-20% density on my 
system.
> 
> Todd

Steve,

You wrote:

>...  Do the MIS inks have the same archival qualities as the Piezo inks?

My fade tests indicate the MIS VM inks are better than Piezo inks.

Paul  

_____________________
--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Paul Roark" <
paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> Steve,
> 
> You wrote:
> 
> >I just saw my first digital BW prints from an Epson 1160 using the
> >piezography inks. They looked vary good. ...
> >Are the Epson printers and piezography inks the best way to go
> >or are there other printers and or inks that can do just as
> >well or better ... ?
> 
> Most on this list use Epson printers with either Piezo inks or MIS
inks
> (inksupply.com).
> 
> I started with Piezo and now print the MIS VM variable-tone inkset
with the
> Epson driver.  It gives me control over the tone of the print
(Piezo is
> warm -- I wanted neutral or cool to match my silver prints, but
note that
> the MIS VM inkset also can print warmer than Piezo), bands less
(meaning
> virtually never) in my 1160, and gives deeper blacks than the Piezo
system.
> 
> Also the MIS inks are much cheaper and, from a new purchaser's
perspective,
> there is no software to buy.  So, it's very cheap to buy a
cartridge of MIS
> VM inks and give them a try.  The cost of trying Piezo is rather
steep,
> however.
> 
> Either way, top notch prints are definitely what you should expect
from

> either approach.
> 
> Paul
> http://www.PaulRoark.com

Austin,

You wrote:

>A question on using the MIS VM inks, and non-Piezo driver...since I've
never
>used that setup at all, I have no idea...but can you view what your image
is
>going to look like on screen before printing?

I edit in grayscale, which gives an accurate representation of the print --
i.e., its WYSIWYG.  In fact, I had FS inks in my 1160 last week and MIS Vm
inks in the 3000.  I used the Piezo software and FS inks to proof an image
that was to be printed on the 3000 at 16x20.  The two systems give
essentially identical looking prints, aside from whatever tone differences
one has chosen.  Since I started with Piezo, I used that as the standard for
the MIS VM curves.

> Is it as "easy" as the Piezo
>driver to print not using the Piezo driver?

With the MIS VM system you have to convert to RGB mode for printing.  Then
you apply a curve.  With a Photoshop "action" this can be a one key
operation.  I haven't measured the time it actually takes, but it's no big
deal.  I've heard some say they think Piezo is a bit more user friendly, but
one does have to set up their software.  So ...

>What about paper profiling, is that pretty much covered also?

This may be where Piezo has an advantage.  Most of the matte papers seem to
print rather well with the standard EAM profile, but there are not the great
variety of profiles that Piezo has.  I am hoping users make and contribute
profiles, but so far I don't see much happening there.  I think part of it
is that people have found that in B&W and with pigmented inks profiles just
are not that important.

>Cone et al, say that they print at 2160, but I can't substantiate
>that...what's your take on that?

On the 4-ink printers the Piezo highlights are a bit smoother.  On my 1160,
however, the Piezo microbanding caused the overall print with the Epson
driver to be better. Also, while some can see the dots of the MIS VM prints
with the 1160, at normal viewing distance and in real photos, I don't see
any dots.  The 1160 is good enough that MIS uses one to make samples of the
MIS VM prints.

On 6-ink printers both systems should be dotless by almost any standard.

The 1280 at 2880 with the Epson driver is the champ according to my tests
(Standard Deviation measure in Photoshop of a 240 dpi scan).  However, the
2880 resolution is slow and the 1440 so good, I can't imaging many use the
2880 resolution.

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com

In a message dated 1/8/2002 5:10:43 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
jerryolson@... writes:


> Been using the system for about a year now, and it absolutely equals
> piezo quality in all respects.
> 

There is something I am confused about here. How can these look as good as 
the piezo software driven prints if the piezo is driving at 2100 plus dpi and 
the epson driver is 1440?
George Kunze


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Paul,

Excellent work!  Thank you, that was a perfect overview, exactly what I was
looking for!

I may have to try it on my own then.  I currently use 3000s...an pretty much
only Epson Heavyweight Matte.

Regards,

Austin

> Austin,
>
> You wrote:
>
<snip>

>
> Paul
> http://www.PaulRoark.com
>

Austin Franklin asked, in part, re. MIS quads:

> My main concern is WYSIWYG...is that the case with your workflow,
> is what is on your screen what comes out the printer? 

Austin, I've been using MIS VM-hex "quads" too, although I've been using
PressReady to print in CMYK mode, and using my own CMYK partitioning
curves to get a split-tone look (cool darks, warm lights) somewhat like
platinum-palladium prints.

I am aware of two ways to get an accurate preview, other than using Jon
Cone's system. Alas, both require a spectrophotometer.

With my CMYK workflow, I use my spectro to measure the L*a*b values of
ink swatches, and to measure dot area curves, then input these readings
into Photoshop as a custom ink setup. Then I use the resulting custom
ink profile to preview my CMYK images *after* applying the partitioning
curves, so I see not only the tonality of the grayscale image, but the
subtle hues of warm and cool grays, on my calibrated monitor. I find
this preview to be spot-on.

If you're using RGB, other list members (like Dave King, Campfire Dan,
and Takichi, I think -- excuse please if that's not right) have reported
that you can print 729 swatches and use the spectro and Profiler Pro to
make an RGB profile (!) for the quad ink set. Then use that profile for
PS preview only -- *not* for printing. I have not tried this method, but
it has been reported to work well, too.

regards,
Richard Wolfson

Austin

The one thing I see occur is that some new users don't realize that each
printer and OS platform needs a specific set of curves. So when you get your
inks make sure to go to the quadtone section of the MIS site and download
the latest set of the curves appropriate for your printer and OS.

Good luck!

Todd

> Paul,
> 
> Excellent work!  Thank you, that was a perfect overview, exactly what I was
> looking for!
> 
> I may have to try it on my own then.  I currently use 3000s...an pretty much
> only Epson Heavyweight Matte.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Austin
> 
>> Austin,
>> 
>> You wrote:
>> 
> <snip>
>> 
>> Paul
>> http://www.PaulRoark.com

Jerry Olson wrote:

> Been using the [MIS VM] system for about a year now,
>and it absolutely equals Piezo quality in all respects.

George Kunze wrote:

>There is something I am confused about here. How can these look as good as
>the Piezo software driven prints if the Piezo is driving at 2100 plus dpi
and
>the Epson driver is 1440?

I'm not sure what the Piezo 2100 claim means.  It does not mean resolution
in terms of line pairs/mm -- that is, it is not a sharpness difference.
I've posted such resolution test results in the Files section of this forum
and the Epson driver, if anything, is sharper than the Piezo driver.  They
both start to run out of steam after about 7 lp/mm.  That translates into
360 dpi at the print size.  Both drivers appear to utilize some information
beyond that figure, but files larger that that are not, in my view, worth
the hassle.

I think the 2100 refers to the dot pattern or dither that is used.  In this
respect, the Piezo driver appears to make smaller dots on, for example, the
3000, than does the Epson driver.  The smaller dots can give a smoother
appearance.

On the 1160 also some can see the smoother highlights that Piezo gives
relative to the MIS VM system, at least when the cold toner is being
applied.

However, on hextone printers the MIS VM system uses a full 6 tone inkset,
whereas the Piezo system still uses only 4 inks.  The 6 inks in the MIS VM
system make the hextone versions of it so smooth that, regardless of whether
Piezo makes smaller dots, the MIS VM system is so smooth it doesn't matter.
(Jerry uses a 1280.)

Let me also note that a few posts may leave the impression that the MIS VM
inkset uses dyes -- it does not. MIS makes some dye-based inksets, but the
MIS VM inkset is pigmented.

Some refer to the colorant around the carbon particle as a "dye."  I'm not
sure I agree with this definition, but to the extent this colorant is a dye,
then all desktop pigmented inksets use some "dyes."  The carbon particles
are too brown and not dark enough to make a good black (so I'm told).

Again, I've posted some comparisons of MIS and Piezo inks in the Files
section of this forum.  See the "Dots" images.  What they show, in my view,
is that Piezo ink contains a substantial greenish component that is probably
a soluble dye, but I'm guessing.  These images are basically close-ups of
dots of ink on Kleenex.  The Piezo ink clearly has a fringe of color to it
that the MIS ink does not.  See for yourselves and make you own conclusions
as to which inkset likely contains the most dyes.

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com

Todd,

Tanks for da tip!

(Arnold S, Kindergarten Cop...to the young boy whose father is a
gynecologist and explained to Arnold what boys have and what girls have ;-)

Austin

> Austin
>
> The one thing I see occur is that some new users don't realize that each
> printer and OS platform needs a specific set of curves. So when
> you get your
> inks make sure to go to the quadtone section of the MIS site and download
> the latest set of the curves appropriate for your printer and OS.
>
> Good luck!
>
> Todd

Possibly, but if he has an investment in the software and likes the
advantages of the paper profiles, FS is cooler than piezo. From what I've
seen (admitedly limited) VM works best on 6 ink printers. I think that the
piezo  driver has real benefits for an 1160.

Julian
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jerry Olson" <jerryolson@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2002 11:13 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Best method for printing BW


> Julian, I understood the FS inks were the Cone Clone, meaning brownish
> prints. Shouldn't he be trying the VM varibable tone inks?
>
> Jerry
>
>
>
> Julian Thomas wrote:
> >
> > Steve, If you've bought Piezo but want a cooler tone, try MIS FS. You
use
> > the piezo driver and the FS inks. The only difference you'll notice is a
> > cooler print, no clogs, no greenies, and a healthier bank balance.
> >
> > Julian
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "steven0356" <stevenr@...>
> > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2002 9:18 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Best method for printing BW
> >
> > > Thanks Paul, the warm tone is one of the things I did not like about
> > > the Piezo prints. Not that warm prints are bad I just think I lean
> > > toward the cooler tones also. Do the MIS inks have the same archival
> > > qualities as the Piezo inks?
> > >
> > > Steve Schaefer
> > >
> > >  --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Paul Roark" <
> > > paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> > > > Steve,
> > > >
> > > > You wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >I just saw my first digital BW prints from an Epson 1160 using the
> > > > >piezography inks. They looked vary good. ...
> > > > >Are the Epson printers and piezography inks the best way to go
> > > > >or are there other printers and or inks that can do just as
> > > > >well or better ... ?
> > > >
> > > > Most on this list use Epson printers with either Piezo inks or MIS
> > > inks
> > > > (inksupply.com).
> > > >
> > > > I started with Piezo and now print the MIS VM variable-tone inkset
> > > with the
> > > > Epson driver.  It gives me control over the tone of the print
> > > (Piezo is
> > > > warm -- I wanted neutral or cool to match my silver prints, but
> > > note that
> > > > the MIS VM inkset also can print warmer than Piezo), bands less
> > > (meaning
> > > > virtually never) in my 1160, and gives deeper blacks than the Piezo
> > > system.
> > > >
> > > > Also the MIS inks are much cheaper and, from a new purchaser's
> > > perspective,
> > > > there is no software to buy.  So, it's very cheap to buy a
> > > cartridge of MIS
> > > > VM inks and give them a try.  The cost of trying Piezo is rather
> > > steep,
> > > > however.
> > > >
> > > > Either way, top notch prints are definitely what you should expect
> > > from
> > > > either approach.
> > > >
> > > > Paul
> > > > http://www.PaulRoark.com
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls
and
> > other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> > >
> > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> > >
> > > Please follow these basic guidelines:
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keep
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> > >
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> > >
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> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> >
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> >
> > Please follow these basic guidelines:
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> >
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>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
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>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
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>
>
>
>
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>
>
>

I don't think there are a lot of downsides Austin. If you are using
Epson Archival Matte, or Epson Watercolor paper, Paul's curves give you
very close to what you get on the screen, with my 1280 printer and the
VM inks. On Photo matte paper (Legion), or eclipse, (Brightcube)  you
have to darken the image very slightly, (about -10 in the Level's middle
slider), or else use a -5 brightness or so in the epson slider. Either
works fine. No matter how good the print is, if I haven't printed it
before, there is always something to dodge or burn just a little, so
you'd rarely get an absolutely perfect print the first time. But you
should hit it the second time.

I'm basically down to those 3 papers now. If ever epson gets rid of the
watermark, I think it will still be my first choice, as it is a nice
paper, at a very reasonable price, has blacks nearly as deep as the
hahnemuhle papers. Also no fading in 3 months in a south window with VM
inks.  I also like the eclipse very much, and it is much thicker, but it
is a bit more costly.

With the Piezo system, after many hundreds of prints, and all the
original bugs were worked out, (and there were a LOT of them in the
first software, as you may remember). I was getting excellent piezo
prints. But there are three downsides that I just couldn't live with.
The brown color, The extremely high price of the inks, and the brown
color. :).

Jerry

> I've been very happy with the Piezo "stuff" for a while now, but you guys
> have my interest piqued about your workflow.  My main concern is
> WYSIWYG...is that the case with your workflow, is what is on your screen
> what comes out the printer?  Are adjustments in PS the same, IE, no special
> considerations?  What are the downsides to your workflow?
>

George,

You cannot tell the difference in sharpness between a piezo print and an
epson driver print. Both are equally sharp, assuming you are printing at
1440 DPI.

Jerry



toomagenta@... wrote:

> 
> In a message dated 1/8/2002 5:10:43 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> jerryolson@... writes:
> 
> > Been using the system for about a year now, and it absolutely equals
> > piezo quality in all respects.
> >
> 
> There is something I am confused about here. How can these look as good as
> the piezo software driven prints if the piezo is driving at 2100 plus dpi and
> the epson driver is 1440?
> George Kunze
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
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> 
> 
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> George,
>
> You cannot tell the difference in sharpness between a piezo print and an
> epson driver print. Both are equally sharp, assuming you are printing at
> 1440 DPI.
>
> Jerry

You mean using Paul Rourke's curves, not using just the black ink and the
Epson dither...right?  Using only black ink and Epson dither yields large
black dots, which are readily visible to the naked eye.  Piezo is virtually
dotless, and I would assume the Rourke curve method is also.

Austin

No you'd always have dots using black ink only. Even on the 1280. Use
Error Diffusion, not dither. Yes, Paul's curves result in dotless prints.

Jerry



Austin Franklin wrote:

> 
> > George,
> >
> > You cannot tell the difference in sharpness between a piezo print and an
> > epson driver print. Both are equally sharp, assuming you are printing at
> > 1440 DPI.
> >
> > Jerry
> 
> You mean using Paul Rourke's curves, not using just the black ink and the
> Epson dither...right?  Using only black ink and Epson dither yields large
> black dots, which are readily visible to the naked eye.  Piezo is virtually
> dotless, and I would assume the Rourke curve method is also.
> 
> Austin
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
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> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various resources on the homepage.
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Yes, Jerry, I do use error diffusion...it is still a dither pattern, by
definition.  I get dots with error diffusion also.

Austin

>
> No you'd always have dots using black ink only. Even on the 1280. Use
> Error Diffusion, not dither. Yes, Paul's curves result in dotless prints.
>
> Jerry
>
>
>
> Austin Franklin wrote:
> >
> > > George,
> > >
> > > You cannot tell the difference in sharpness between a piezo
> print and an
> > > epson driver print. Both are equally sharp, assuming you are
> printing at
> > > 1440 DPI.
> > >
> > > Jerry
> >
> > You mean using Paul Rourke's curves, not using just the black
> ink and the
> > Epson dither...right?  Using only black ink and Epson dither
> yields large
> > black dots, which are readily visible to the naked eye.  Piezo
> is virtually
> > dotless, and I would assume the Rourke curve method is also.
> >
> > Austin
>

The Christmas Crazies have left me even more confused (and behind) 
than usual. But I think I remember that I could use an Epson 1160 
driver with some of Paul's curves, the MIS VM inkset, and  EAM or 
Museo. And that I could instead buy the PiezoBW driver and use it 
with the MIS FSQ inkset on EAM or Museo.

However I have the impression that to use the PiezoBW driver 
successfully, you have to have a printer which can be aligned, and 
kept aligned, precisely (eliminating some fraction of the 1160s), 
whereas the Epson driver is more tolerant in this regard. Is that 
correct - that the PiezoBW driver is more punishing for any shortfall 
on the alignment?

I also have the impression, though, that the PiezoBW driver is 
faster, at least on the 1280/90. Is it on the 1160?

And that there are preview advantages in Photoshop 6 from using the 
PiezoBW software. Is that correct?

If the Piezo software is faster and easier to use on the 1160, I 
might spring for it and order the FSQ inkset (and a CIS). Otherwise, 
I think I'll order the VM (and a CIS). Especially since I intend to 
later use the sepia-neutral inkset Paul has been developing for (I 
believe) an Epson driver. In fact, if the sepia-neutral inkset is 
accessible, I'll order it now instead of either FSQ or VM.

Sam

I've just set up a 1270 alongside an 1160 and am trying VM on each of 
them. The 1160 consistently produces prints that are about 10-20% 
darker (in the case of am-warm, they are also that much warmer).

All settings are identical on the two print dialogs, only the curves 
added are different.

This isn't a problem (or won't be once I pick one)...

Tom O'Connell

TomOC@...
www.thomasoconnell.com

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "sunshine_1451" 
<flacita33@h...> wrote:
> I've also found my prints coming out a bit darker (VM on 1160). I 
> agree that adjusting for the difference is not difficult, since 
> contrast and tonal relationships remain the same.
> 
> Chris
> 
> 
> DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Todd Flashner <tflash@e...> 
wrote:
> >  
> > > I've been very happy with the Piezo "stuff" for a while now, 
but 
> you guys
> > > have my interest piqued about your workflow.  My main concern is
> > > WYSIWYG...is that the case with your workflow, is what is on 
your 
> screen
> > > what comes out the printer?  Are adjustments in PS the same, 
IE, 
> no special
> > > considerations?  What are the downsides to your workflow?
> > 
> > Austin
> > 
> > First off you need to convert your grayscale file to RGB for 
> printing. You
> > can work your file in grayscale up until you are about to print, 
> then
> > convert in order to apply Roark's curves. At that point your file 
> will look
> > wacky and will no longer be WYSIWYG, but it *was up until then.
> > 
> > *Myself and Jerry actually find that our prints come out a bit 
> darker than
> > our screen images, but I don't know about other users, and if 
it's a
> > calibration thing unique to our systems, or a function of the 
> process. I've
> > just learned to anticipate the situation much as I did dry-down 
in 
> the
> > darkroom. However by creating a custom dot gain preview, or a 
> transfer
> > function, it can be overcome, though I haven't done so yet. I 
> happen to
> > apply an adjustment layer to compensate, and Jerry uses a slider 
in 
> the
> > Epson driver. None the less up until Roark's curves are applied 
the 

> image is
> > relatively WYSIWIG, I'd guess within about 15-20% density on my 
> system.
> > 
> > Todd

on 1/11/02 5:33 PM, tomoc wrote:

> I've just set up a 1270 alongside an 1160 and am trying VM on each of
> them. The 1160 consistently produces prints that are about 10-20%
> darker (in the case of am-warm, they are also that much warmer).
> 
> All settings are identical on the two print dialogs, only the curves
> added are different.

I don't use the quads on a 1270, so I could be off base here, but I think
the 1270 has an option on the advanced section of the Epson driver where you
can choose between two or three gammas. Selecting another gamma there might
align your 1270 prints closer to your 1160.

If you give it a try let me know how it goes. I have a suspicion or two
about that gamma control...

Todd

Tom, even if you were comparing two 1160's your results might be the same.
Each printer is an individual with its own quirks, & will require some
tweaking of the curves. (I add a Curves adjustment layer in PS) -BK

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tomoc [mailto:tomoc@...]
> Sent: Friday, January 11, 2002 2:34 PM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Best method for printing BW
>
>
> I've just set up a 1270 alongside an 1160 and am trying VM on each of
> them. The 1160 consistently produces prints that are about 10-20%
> darker (in the case of am-warm, they are also that much warmer).
>
> All settings are identical on the two print dialogs, only the curves
> added are different.
>
> This isn't a problem (or won't be once I pick one)...
>
> Tom O'Connell
>
> TomOC@...
> www.thomasoconnell.com
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "sunshine_1451"
> <flacita33@h...> wrote:
> > I've also found my prints coming out a bit darker (VM on 1160). I
> > agree that adjusting for the difference is not difficult, since
> > contrast and tonal relationships remain the same.
> >
> > Chris
> >
> >
> > DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Todd Flashner <tflash@e...>
> wrote:
> > >
> > > > I've been very happy with the Piezo "stuff" for a while now,
> but
> > you guys
> > > > have my interest piqued about your workflow.  My main concern is
> > > > WYSIWYG...is that the case with your workflow, is what is on
> your
> > screen
> > > > what comes out the printer?  Are adjustments in PS the same,
> IE,
> > no special
> > > > considerations?  What are the downsides to your workflow?
> > >
> > > Austin
> > >
> > > First off you need to convert your grayscale file to RGB for
> > printing. You
> > > can work your file in grayscale up until you are about to print,
> > then
> > > convert in order to apply Roark's curves. At that point your file
> > will look
> > > wacky and will no longer be WYSIWYG, but it *was up until then.
> > >
> > > *Myself and Jerry actually find that our prints come out a bit
> > darker than
> > > our screen images, but I don't know about other users, and if
> it's a
> > > calibration thing unique to our systems, or a function of the
> > process. I've
> > > just learned to anticipate the situation much as I did dry-down
> in
> > the
> > > darkroom. However by creating a custom dot gain preview, or a
> > transfer
> > > function, it can be overcome, though I haven't done so yet. I
> > happen to
> > > apply an adjustment layer to compensate, and Jerry uses a slider
> in
> > the
> > > Epson driver. None the less up until Roark's curves are applied
> the
> > image is
> > > relatively WYSIWIG, I'd guess within about 15-20% density on my
> > system.
> > >
> > > Todd
>
>
>
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks,
> Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier
> messages to keep them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the
> various resources on the homepage.
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>