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Digital BW, The Print

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Re: [Digital BW] Best method for printing b&w.

Re: [Digital BW] Best method for printing b&w.

2002-01-09 by daschkenas@aol.com

To my understanding, MIS makes, pigment inks, and dye inks.  I didn't think that the dye sets had any pigments in them.  I tried to print b&w with the MIS pigs, with a profile by CDTobie, and I was able to get relatively neutral b&w, but I could not get the richness I desired with out either posterization or abrupt tonal changes in the low range.
With the MIS dye, I am able to get neutral b&w prints that are much richer and 3-D looking than I could even come close to in a pig ink set.  The difference in the look and feel of a b&w print made with the MIS dyes to that of the same image made with the MIS pigs, is day & nite...no contest. the dyes win hands down, thats been my experience anyway.
David

Re: [Digital BW] Best method for printing b&w.

2002-01-09 by Daniel Perez

David, did you ever get to compare your b&w MIS
pigment prints against an MIS VM (hextone)print?  Or
have you compared your b&w MIS dye prints to a VM
print?  
Just courious as to where you think it would fall
compared to your dye and pig prints.
My feeling is that a b&w print generated with MIS
color pigs would fall short of a b&w image printed
with VM inks.  Don't know how it would fare against a
dye print though..
Where are you located?  

-Daniel, Dallas w/ 1280 and VM inks.


--- daschkenas@... wrote:
> The
> difference in the look and feel of a b&w print made
> with the MIS dyes to that of the same image made
> with the MIS pigs, is day & nite...no contest. the
> dyes win hands down, thats been my experience
> anyway.
> David
> 


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Re: [Digital BW] Best method for printing b&w.

2002-01-09 by Sam A. McCandless

Just to be sure I understand, David: the dyes were better despite the 
fact that you had a custom(CDT)-made profile for the pigments but 
_not_ for the dyes?

And since I'm already bothering you to make that explicit, may I 
trouble you also for the names MIS uses for these two particular 
inksets? There are so many I have to work at it to keep them straight.

And also for the paper(s) on which you were printing?

Thanks.

Sam
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>To my understanding, MIS makes, pigment inks, and dye inks.  I 
>didn't think that the dye sets had any pigments in them.  I tried to 
>print b&w with the MIS pigs, with a profile by CDTobie, and I was 
>able to get relatively neutral b&w, but I could not get the richness 
>I desired with out either posterization or abrupt tonal changes in 
>the low range.
>With the MIS dye, I am able to get neutral b&w prints that are much 
>richer and 3-D looking than I could even come close to in a pig ink 
>set.  The difference in the look and feel of a b&w print made with 
>the MIS dyes to that of the same image made with the MIS pigs, is 
>day & nite...no contest. the dyes win hands down, thats been my 
>experience anyway.
>David

Re: [Digital BW] Best method for printing b&w.

2002-01-09 by daschkenas@aol.com

Daniel, I have never tried the MIS VM hex's or quads, just the MIS dyes to PIgs.
I'd be glad to send a sample print to you made with the MIS color dyes, a b&w print, if you are interested in seeing one.
I'm in PGH, PA.
David

Re: [Digital BW] Best method for printing b&w.

2002-01-09 by daschkenas@aol.com

Sam, you heard me correctly.  The b&w prints with the MIS PIGS with the CDT profile, do not look anywhere near as good as b&w prints with MIS dyes, and the epson canned profile, set at Adobe RGB.
The prints were made on Legion Photo Matte, and Somerset Enhanced Velvet.
With the PIGs, something funny was always happening in the lower values, un smooth transitions, slightly posterized effects.  None of this happens with the MIS dyes.  I'm using an epson 1280 with NMC CIS.
David

Re: [Digital BW] Best method for printing b&w.

2002-01-09 by daschkenas@aol.com

Sam I forgot to add, I'm not sure what MIS calls the dyes, i think they just refer to them as OEM equivalents, as opposed to the MIS pigs that they call archival.
David

Re: [Digital BW] Best method for printing b&w.

2002-01-09 by Jerry Olson

I was speaking of the long lived Archival PIGMENT inks from MIS, NOT the
dye colors. I have never used their dye inks.  Sorry If you thought I
was referring to the dye set.

Jerry  

The MIS Inks are all pigment, both their quad, hex, and color. They also
sell dye inks. ALL dye inks will fade much faster than pigment inks.

If you have use a 3000 printer, you will always have the dot problem
unless you use the piezo system.





wilfred71118 wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> 
> I have been reading with great interest the current post about the
> methods to produce b&w. I have been paying close attention,
> especially since Paul and Jerry have been contributing much of the
> comments. I have been reading the various topics on several groups,
> trying to decide on which method to go with.I have come to respect
> their opinion, and appriciate their shairing of their hard learned
> knowledge.I feel they have a good handle on this stuff. It wanted to
> chime in when a question was answered about the longevity of the MIS
> inks. The original person asking the post seemed somewhat supprised
> that a dye could bost of this life span. If I am not mistaken, the
> MIS inks are not just dye. They are a mix of dye and pigment. This is
> an area I am very interested in as I would kind of like to quad print
> with just dye. Have you guys used a dye only quads. If not, is their
> a reason to stay away.     I will be using an epson 3000 & p/c.
> Thanks....
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
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> 
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Re: [Digital BW] Best method for printing b&w.

2002-01-09 by Jerry Olson

Yes, but it's a shame they won't last long.

Jerry



daschkenas@... wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> 
> To my understanding, MIS makes, pigment inks, and dye inks.  I didn't think that the dye sets had any pigments in them.  I tried to print b&w with the MIS pigs, with a profile by CDTobie, and I was able to get relatively neutral b&w, but I could not get the richness I desired with out either posterization or abrupt tonal changes in the low range.
> With the MIS dye, I am able to get neutral b&w prints that are much richer and 3-D looking than I could even come close to in a pig ink set.  The difference in the look and feel of a b&w print made with the MIS dyes to that of the same image made with the MIS pigs, is day & nite...no contest. the dyes win hands down, thats been my experience anyway.
> David
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
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> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various resources on the homepage.
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Re: [Digital BW] Best method for printing b&w.

2002-01-09 by Jerry Olson

Dave, are you getting deeper blacks with the MIS DYE inks? Wonder if you
could use the 5 lighter colors in pigment and the black one could be the
dye black?

Jerry




daschkenas@... wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> 
> Sam, you heard me correctly.  The b&w prints with the MIS PIGS with the CDT profile, do not look anywhere near as good as b&w prints with MIS dyes, and the epson canned profile, set at Adobe RGB.
> The prints were made on Legion Photo Matte, and Somerset Enhanced Velvet.
> With the PIGs, something funny was always happening in the lower values, un smooth transitions, slightly posterized effects.  None of this happens with the MIS dyes.  I'm using an epson 1280 with NMC CIS.
> David
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
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> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various resources on the homepage.
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [Digital BW] Best method for printing b&w.

2002-01-09 by daschkenas@aol.com

Jerry, I'm getting a much blacker black with the dyes than with the pigments.
I will be glad to send you a sample,  I'm not sure what I have kicking around from the MIS pigment inks, I was so disgusted with the way they looked I threw most of that stuff out, but I certainly do have b&w prints from the MIS color dye inks.
David

Re: [Digital BW] Best method for printing b&w.

2002-01-09 by Jerry Olson

Thanks David.  I'll be looking forward to seeing them.

Any idea of the permanence?  I'm going to try a bottle of the black dye,
along with the other 5 positions of pigment inks and see what happens. 
I'm not so interested in the long life anymore. I'm sure the prints will
last as long as me.

Did you do any south window tests?

What paper did you use to get the great prints?

Jerry

d

Re: [Digital BW] Best method for printing b&w.

2002-01-09 by Jerry Olson

And that's close enough for me, too.

daschkenas@... wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> 
> Jery, If they last 25 years before any indication of fading, as per oem claims, thats enough for me right now.
> David
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various resources on the homepage.
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Re: [Digital BW] Best method for printing b&w.

2002-01-10 by Jerry Olson

Thanks Michael.

I thought it might work. So glad someone actually tried it. Since the
other 5 inks are pigment, I would think the longevity of the whole set
would be somewhere in-between 20 and the 100 years claimed for the
pigments. If it would last 20, it would be fine for me. This would just
be for my personal stuff, the stuff I sell would still be all pigment.
What paper did you use it on?




Jerry

"Michael J. Kravit" wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> 
> Jerry,
> 
> Using the Epson Black Dye and the MIS VM Pigs will give you amazing prints.
> I tried it.
> 
> Mike
>

Re: [Digital BW] Best method for printing b&w.

2002-01-10 by Jerry Olson

Michael, just a curious question, do you know of ANY other art media
OTHER than inkjet inks that worry people about longevity?

I was just in a University gallery, and everything from colored pencil,
oil, gauche, watercolors, acrylics,  and inkjet prints  were
represented. I bet not ONE of the artists or buyers of the artist's
works asked about "How long will these prints last before fading"? I bet
artist's don't even consider this question when making art supply
purchases.  Can you even IMAGINE  of an oil painter or watercolorist
testing 10 different brands of oil or watercolor paint in the sun for 3
months to see which faded less? I think its about time we joined all the
other artists and forget about it. If a client ever complains, I'd just
reprint it. Very little cost, happy client.

Jerry
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> 
> A very well placed source at Hahnemuhle has provided information that the
> Epson Dye Black on H. Phot Rag will last 2-4 times longer than the 26 years
> Epson advertises.

RE: [Digital BW] Best method for printing b&w.

2002-01-10 by Michael J. Kravit

Jerry,

Using the Epson Black Dye and the MIS VM Pigs will give you amazing prints.
I tried it.

Mike
Show quoted textHide quoted text
  -----Original Message-----
  From: Jerry Olson [mailto:jerryolson@...]
  Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2002 5:23 PM
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Best method for printing b&w.


  Thanks David.  I'll be looking forward to seeing them.

  Any idea of the permanence?  I'm going to try a bottle of the black dye,
  along with the other 5 positions of pigment inks and see what happens.
  I'm not so interested in the long life anymore. I'm sure the prints will
  last as long as me.

  Did you do any south window tests?

  What paper did you use to get the great prints?

  Jerry

  d

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

RE: [Digital BW] Best method for printing b&w.

2002-01-10 by Michael J. Kravit

Jerry,

A very well placed source at Hahnemuhle has provided information that the
Epson Dye Black on H. Phot Rag will last 2-4 times longer than the 26 years
Epson advertises.

-Mike


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Archival revisted was...Best method for printing

2002-01-10 by lyonscox

Jerry,


> Michael, just a curious question, do you know of ANY other art media
> OTHER than inkjet inks that worry people about longevity?

Actually yes, individuals in all the other arts have considered 
longetivity as an issue within the last 25-40 years.

> artist's don't even consider this question when making art supply
> purchases.  Can you even IMAGINE  of an oil painter or watercolorist
> testing 10 different brands of oil or watercolor paint in the sun  
> for 3 months to see which faded less?

They do consider it when making the purchase of 'professional' vs 
student grade paints, and pay a premuim for those materials.  Main 
different of course is in the choice of your pigment within a color, 
some yellows are archival, some not.  Same for other colors.  This in 
addition to the medium they choose.  


> I think its about time we joined all the
> other artists and forget about it. If a client ever complains, I'd 
> just reprint it. Very little cost, happy client.

Can't reprint a watercolor.  It's a matter of providing artwork 
created with the best materials available to you that also meet your 
needs, in conjunction with a collector who understands the 
limitations of the medium and not just the surface of marketing 
knowledge.

In that way we have joined the modern era of making art.  It's the 
collector (consumer at a lower level) who may be tainting their 
purchase with an 'investment consideration.'

If passion takes you and you create hundreds of works a week, cost 
may be a factor so you choose 'cheaper' material.  If you are 
fastidious about design and useage then you are likely to create 
fewer works with 'more' consideration of each piece (and use higher 
quality material).  Seems to me the philosophy we are prone to use is 
embeded in us regardless of the media, or job, we choose.

Sincerely,

Cleavis

RE: [Digital BW] Best method for printing b&w.

2002-01-10 by David J. Bookbinder

Then again, colored pencil, oil, gauche, watercolors, and acrylics have been
around for decades to centuries already and those that have survied have
stood the test of time. Come, oh, 2300AD or so, I imagine nobody will be
thinking twice about the longevity of their inkjet prints, either.

- David
Show quoted textHide quoted text
-----Original Message-----
From: Jerry Olson [mailto:jerryolson@...]
Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2002 7:21 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Best method for printing b&w.


Michael, just a curious question, do you know of ANY other art media
OTHER than inkjet inks that worry people about longevity?

I was just in a University gallery, and everything from colored pencil,
oil, gauche, watercolors, acrylics,  and inkjet prints  were
represented. I bet not ONE of the artists or buyers of the artist's
works asked about "How long will these prints last before fading"? I bet
artist's don't even consider this question when making art supply
purchases.  Can you even IMAGINE  of an oil painter or watercolorist
testing 10 different brands of oil or watercolor paint in the sun for 3
months to see which faded less? I think its about time we joined all the
other artists and forget about it. If a client ever complains, I'd just
reprint it. Very little cost, happy client.

Jerry

>
> A very well placed source at Hahnemuhle has provided information that the
> Epson Dye Black on H. Phot Rag will last 2-4 times longer than the 26
years
> Epson advertises.


Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

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Re: [Digital BW] Best method for printing b&w.

2002-01-10 by JackG

Jerry,

To be honest, I have been afraid to state what you just said. I did not want
to start a flame war.

I totally agree with you, I have been in the photography business for over
30 years, started in B&W, that was really the only option at that time for
sellable prints.

When color was starting to become popular, I begged people to buy some of
the prints in B&W so they would have something in the future. NO WAY!!!!!
 Every time Kodak made us change to a new film or paper we cried and said we
liked the present one.......but!!!

The irony of all this is about 4 years ago I stopped doing my own B&W and
turned it over to the color lab I have used for over 12 years. Every print
has gone bad and had to be reprinted, just got a bridal portrait back today
that was made only 3 years ago. Lab blames Kodak, Kodak blames.......

I hope everyone one this list lives to be 107 so they can keep replacing
their prints.

Oops, I just noticed the paint on my house and car is fading, damn there is
some fading on the carpet and drapes too, who is going to pay  me for this
shoddy work???

I wonder who was responsible for the cost of repainting the Sistine Chapel
when it faded????
I always knew that Michelangelo was a shifty character with no regard for
longevity of his creations. That is why he wanted to be known as a sculptor
and not a painter. He was on the original list for:

                                      "It lasts forever or it is no damn
good"

Members of this list, I am just trying to be a little whimsical, I really
appreciate that you are proud of your artwork, and that showing a
guardianship about your art is a superior show of character. I wish it could
last forever, but alas it will not. I agree, it should last a "reasonable"
length of time, but art like living things we love seem to always leave us
before we are ready.
Any time I have "lost" a living creature that I loved, I have been known to
cry out for just one more moment...........PLEASE!!!!!!

As always,

Jack
Show quoted textHide quoted text
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jerry Olson" <jerryolson@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2002 6:20 PM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Best method for printing b&w.


| Michael, just a curious question, do you know of ANY other art media
| OTHER than inkjet inks that worry people about longevity?
|
| I was just in a University gallery, and everything from colored pencil,
| oil, gauche, watercolors, acrylics,  and inkjet prints  were
| represented. I bet not ONE of the artists or buyers of the artist's
| works asked about "How long will these prints last before fading"? I bet
| artist's don't even consider this question when making art supply
| purchases.  Can you even IMAGINE  of an oil painter or watercolorist
| testing 10 different brands of oil or watercolor paint in the sun for 3
| months to see which faded less? I think its about time we joined all the
| other artists and forget about it. If a client ever complains, I'd just
| reprint it. Very little cost, happy client.
|
| Jerry
|
| >
| > A very well placed source at Hahnemuhle has provided information that
the
| > Epson Dye Black on H. Phot Rag will last 2-4 times longer than the 26
years
| > Epson advertises.
|
|
| Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
|
| http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
|
| Please follow these basic guidelines:
| - Include your full name with your message.
| - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
| - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
them short.
| - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
| - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
| - Complete your Yahoo profile.
| - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.
|
|
|
|
| Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
|
|

Re: [Digital BW] Best method for printing b&w.

2002-01-10 by daschkenas@aol.com

Jerry, I haven't done any south window tests.  I've been printing on Legion 
Photo Matte lately, It a good bit whiter than EAM or Hanumuele Rag.  The rag 
feels better to the touch, but if a print is behind glass...so much for the 
touch.  Also, the LPM is about 25% the price of the photo rag.
David

Re: [Digital BW] Best method for printing b&w.

2002-01-10 by daschkenas@aol.com

I think all the fuss about the longevity of ink jet prints is a result of 
people remembering what the early inks were like, 5, 10 yaers ago.  I 
remember art directors telling me that they would leave a color inkjet print 
in the car overnight, and the next day there was a visible change, same with 
leaving one by a window, a couple of days and there would be a change.  The 
technology jas already come so far from those times, but people are 
stigmatized by the ir remembering what the OLD inkjet prints were like.  Now 
everyone is bending over backwards to compensate for what the old inks were 
like, when the modern dyes actually do rather well in comparison.
I've been to auctions where faded and stained Walker Evans prints sold for 
more than a modern Walker Evans print, archivally processed by some else.  
Its funny how, if something is considered Vintage, then its value is enhanced 
no matter what the condition.  Perhaps, the fading or changes in the Dye 
inkjet prints will add an Aura to them in about 30 years making them even 
more desireable than prints that look brand new???
David

RE: [Digital BW] Best method for printing b&w.

2002-01-10 by Michael J. Kravit

Jerry,

I printed it on H. Photo Rag 308, Legion Photo Matte, and Museo.

Mike
Show quoted textHide quoted text
  -----Original Message-----
  From: Jerry Olson [mailto:jerryolson@...]
  Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2002 6:15 PM
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Best method for printing b&w.


  Thanks Michael.

  I thought it might work. So glad someone actually tried it. Since the
  other 5 inks are pigment, I would think the longevity of the whole set
  would be somewhere in-between 20 and the 100 years claimed for the
  pigments. If it would last 20, it would be fine for me. This would just
  be for my personal stuff, the stuff I sell would still be all pigment.
  What paper did you use it on?




  Jerry

  "Michael J. Kravit" wrote:
  >
  > Jerry,
  >
  > Using the Epson Black Dye and the MIS VM Pigs will give you amazing
prints.
  > I tried it.
  >
  > Mike
  >

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              ADVERTISEMENT




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

RE: [Digital BW] Best method for printing b&w.

2002-01-10 by Michael J. Kravit

Jerry,

It is funny you bring that up.

Have you ever placed a water color painting in the south facing window to
test it's fading properties? Better not, the pigments fade!

Mike
Show quoted textHide quoted text
  -----Original Message-----
  From: Jerry Olson [mailto:jerryolson@...]
  Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2002 6:21 PM
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Best method for printing b&w.


  Michael, just a curious question, do you know of ANY other art media
  OTHER than inkjet inks that worry people about longevity?

  I was just in a University gallery, and everything from colored pencil,
  oil, gauche, watercolors, acrylics,  and inkjet prints  were
  represented. I bet not ONE of the artists or buyers of the artist's
  works asked about "How long will these prints last before fading"? I bet
  artist's don't even consider this question when making art supply
  purchases.  Can you even IMAGINE  of an oil painter or watercolorist
  testing 10 different brands of oil or watercolor paint in the sun for 3
  months to see which faded less? I think its about time we joined all the
  other artists and forget about it. If a client ever complains, I'd just
  reprint it. Very little cost, happy client.

  Jerry

  >
  > A very well placed source at Hahnemuhle has provided information that
the
  > Epson Dye Black on H. Phot Rag will last 2-4 times longer than the 26
years
  > Epson advertises.

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

RE: [Digital BW] Best method for printing b&w.

2002-01-10 by Michael J. Kravit

Jerry,

I was over at my parent's house last week. We were going through a number of
their olf albums. There was a color portrait of my dad when he was in High
School in 1950. I think he was 17 at the time. The photo was faded and a bit
tattered. It had a certain charm that old photo's have. It is now 52 years
old, should I call the photographer and scold lecture him about archival
practices.

There were also B/W images that had yellowing in the paper. Did not look
like fixing problems, just paper yellowing. The point is, none of us are
forever, neither is photography, oil paintings, water color paintings,
pastels, charcoals, etc.

Sure let's strive for images that last, but let's not get obsessed with the
subject.

Mike


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Best method for printing b&w.

2002-01-10 by shashinka@aol.com

In a message dated 1/9/02 6:25:20 PM, jerryolson@... writes:

<< Any idea of the permanence?  I'm going to try a bottle of the black dye,
along with the other 5 positions of pigment inks and see what happens. 
I'm not so interested in the long life anymore. I'm sure the prints will
last as long as me.

Did you do any south window tests?

What paper did you use to get the great prints?

Jerry >>

Jerry:

I've seen the Epson dye black(probably similiar to the MIS) and it turns 
absolutely green after heavy exposure, so I think that the G4 beta black is 
as far as I would go as a compromise to .

-Andy Darlow

Re: [Digital BW] Best method for printing b&w.

2002-01-10 by markhahn2000

I was just looking at some of my older "real" photographs and came up 
with aging problems in more than a few... so longetivity problems are 
nothing new to inkjet printing.

mark

...The point is, none of us 
are
> forever, neither is photography, oil paintings, water color 
paintings,
> pastels, charcoals, etc.
> 
> Sure let's strive for images that last, but let's not get obsessed 
with the
> subject.
...

Re: [Digital BW] Best method for printing b&w.

2002-01-10 by shashinka@aol.com

In a message dated 1/9/02 11:49:58 PM, shashinka@... writes:

<< Jerry:

I've seen the Epson dye black(probably similiar to the MIS) and it turns 
absolutely green after heavy exposure, so I think that the G4 beta black is 
as far as I would go .

-Andy Darlow >>

Hi again:

The Indelible black might also be one to try, but I doubt there's much 
density diference between it and MIS double density black.  Any comments?  

All the best!

-Andy

Photography, Digital Print Consulting and Custom Editions
Andrew Darlow Images International
www.andydarlow.com
andy@...
Toll free- 1-877-ADarlow

Re: [Digital BW] Best method for printing b&w.

2002-01-11 by Jerry Olson

I had double density black, and it was extremely close to the VM black.
I think the VM is slightly deeper.

I'll do dip and dunk tests with the MIS Dye blacks, put it in a kleenex
to see if there is any green that comes out of it, and put it a couple
inches from a 100 watt bulb for a few weeks to see what happens.  

If there's any metamerism, I won't use it.  I know the Epson dye is
green in daylight, but that is with gray tones. Do you think the actual
black ink itself would turn green if it only prints pure black, which I
assume that's all it does in a 6 color printer.

Jerry

shashinka@... wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> 
> In a message dated 1/9/02 11:49:58 PM, shashinka@... writes:
> 
> << Jerry:
> 
> I've seen the Epson dye black(probably similiar to the MIS) and it turns
> absolutely green after heavy exposure, so I think that the G4 beta black is
> as far as I would go .
> 
> -Andy Darlow >>
> 
> Hi again:
> 
> The Indelible black might also be one to try, but I doubt there's much
> density diference between it and MIS double density black.  Any comments?
> 
> All the best!
> 
> -Andy
> 
> Photography, Digital Print Consulting and Custom Editions
> Andrew Darlow Images International
> www.andydarlow.com
> andy@...
> Toll free- 1-877-ADarlow
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various resources on the homepage.
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

RE: [Digital BW] Best method for printing b&w.

2002-01-11 by Michael J. Kravit

Andy,

Are you referring to the "old" Epson black dye? or the newer Epson black
used in the 1280, 10000 and now available for the 7000/9000 series?

I have not seen that problem with the newer 26 year dyes.

Mike
Show quoted textHide quoted text
 -----Original Message-----
From: shashinka@... [mailto:shashinka@...]
Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2002 3:31 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Best method for printing b&w.



  In a message dated 1/9/02 11:49:58 PM, shashinka@... writes:

  << Jerry:

  I've seen the Epson dye black(probably similiar to the MIS) and it turns
  absolutely green after heavy exposure, so I think that the G4 beta black
is
  as far as I would go .

  -Andy Darlow >>

  Hi again:

  The Indelible black might also be one to try, but I doubt there's much
  density diference between it and MIS double density black.  Any comments?

  All the best!

  -Andy

  Photography, Digital Print Consulting and Custom Editions
  Andrew Darlow Images International
  www.andydarlow.com
  andy@...
  Toll free- 1-877-ADarlow




        Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
              ADVERTISEMENT




  Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Best method for printing b&w.

2002-01-11 by toliwel@aol.com

Jerry, I've been using epson dye black with my color MIS pigments for several 
years now.  It does give a significantly deeper black on mat and watercolor 
papers.  I also use it with MIS quads.  I found that I get the deepest 
blacks, as well as the most brilliant colors, on epson HWM, Archival mat, and 
Mediastreet royal plush.  All papers are not equal in their ability to give a 
good deep black.  Even with a slight difference in black an image looks 
significantly better, in my opinion.  

In my window tests, the epson dye black lasts well on some papers.  On 
others, it can fade fast.  The longest on HWM,  Royal plush and AM a close 
second.  There are others that tested out well, but I don't remember them off 
hand.  It also lasts well on photopaper.  On some papers, particularly the 
majority of watercolor papers, its life can be short.  It pays to do some 
window tests with a known combination to guage relative life.  I have done 
some testing with the MIS 1270 dye black.  It seems to be equivilent to the 
epson in blackness and longevity.  In contrast, the old MIS dye black had a 
very short life in my tests.

RE: [Digital BW] Best method for printing b&w.

2002-01-11 by Michael J. Kravit

Jerry,

I have a print made with the new Epson black dye sitting right next to me.
It is not green at all. The black ink is as neutral as I have seen.

Mike
Show quoted textHide quoted text
  -----Original Message-----
  From: Jerry Olson [mailto:jerryolson@...]
  Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2002 6:28 PM
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Best method for printing b&w.


  I had double density black, and it was extremely close to the VM black.
  I think the VM is slightly deeper.

  I'll do dip and dunk tests with the MIS Dye blacks, put it in a kleenex
  to see if there is any green that comes out of it, and put it a couple
  inches from a 100 watt bulb for a few weeks to see what happens.

  If there's any metamerism, I won't use it.  I know the Epson dye is
  green in daylight, but that is with gray tones. Do you think the actual
  black ink itself would turn green if it only prints pure black, which I
  assume that's all it does in a 6 color printer.

  Jerry

  shashinka@... wrote:
  >
  > In a message dated 1/9/02 11:49:58 PM, shashinka@... writes:
  >
  > << Jerry:
  >
  > I've seen the Epson dye black(probably similiar to the MIS) and it turns
  > absolutely green after heavy exposure, so I think that the G4 beta black
is
  > as far as I would go .
  >
  > -Andy Darlow >>
  >
  > Hi again:
  >
  > The Indelible black might also be one to try, but I doubt there's much
  > density diference between it and MIS double density black.  Any
comments?
  >
  > All the best!
  >
  > -Andy
  >
  > Photography, Digital Print Consulting and Custom Editions
  > Andrew Darlow Images International
  > www.andydarlow.com
  > andy@...
  > Toll free- 1-877-ADarlow
  >
  >
  > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
  >
  > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
  >
  > Please follow these basic guidelines:
  > - Include your full name with your message.
  > - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
  > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to
keep them short.
  > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject
header.
  > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
"flames."
  > - Complete your Yahoo profile.
  > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
resources on the homepage.
  >
  >
  >
  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Best method for printing b&w.

2002-01-11 by shashinka@aol.com

In a message dated 1/10/02 7:56:31 PM, michael.kravit@... writes:

<< Jerry,

I have a print made with the new Epson black dye sitting right next to me.
It is not green at all. The black ink is as neutral as I have seen.

Mike >>

Hi Mike and Jerry:

I should add that it took between 2-3 months to begin to turn green behind a 
double plane of glass getting about 12 hrs light/day; normal treatment might 
not pose any problems.

All the best,

Andy

Re: [Digital BW] Best method for printing b&w.

2002-01-11 by shashinka@aol.com

In a message dated 1/10/02 7:23:38 PM, michael.kravit@... writes:

<< Andy,

Are you referring to the "old" Epson black dye? or the newer Epson black
used in the 1280, 10000 and now available for the 7000/9000 series?

I have not seen that problem with the newer 26 year dyes.

Mike >>

Hi Mike:

It was a black ink only print done with the 1270.

-Andy

Re: [Digital BW] Best method for printing b&w.

2002-01-11 by Jerry Olson

Micheal, Which epson dye, the one that comes with the 1280 printer?  I'm
going to try the MIS black Dye ink.

You can't get epson in bulk, and I'd never go back to cartridges.

Jerry

I haven't seen the original 1280 inks fade, not even in 3 months of
sunlight window torture, but that is just too expensive. Need bulk inks!

Jerry





"Michael J. Kravit" wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> 
> Jerry,
> 
> I have a print made with the new Epson black dye sitting right next to me.
> It is not green at all. The black ink is as neutral as I have seen.
> 
> Mike
>   -----Original Message-----
>   From: Jerry Olson [mailto:jerryolson@...]
>   Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2002 6:28 PM
>   To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
>   Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Best method for printing b&w.
> 
>   I had double density black, and it was extremely close to the VM black.
>   I think the VM is slightly deeper.
> 
>   I'll do dip and dunk tests with the MIS Dye blacks, put it in a kleenex
>   to see if there is any green that comes out of it, and put it a couple
>   inches from a 100 watt bulb for a few weeks to see what happens.
> 
>   If there's any metamerism, I won't use it.  I know the Epson dye is
>   green in daylight, but that is with gray tones. Do you think the actual
>   black ink itself would turn green if it only prints pure black, which I
>   assume that's all it does in a 6 color printer.
> 
>   Jerry
> 
>   shashinka@... wrote:
>   >
>   > In a message dated 1/9/02 11:49:58 PM, shashinka@... writes:
>   >
>   > << Jerry:
>   >
>   > I've seen the Epson dye black(probably similiar to the MIS) and it turns
>   > absolutely green after heavy exposure, so I think that the G4 beta black
> is
>   > as far as I would go .
>   >
>   > -Andy Darlow >>
>   >
>   > Hi again:
>   >
>   > The Indelible black might also be one to try, but I doubt there's much
>   > density diference between it and MIS double density black.  Any
> comments?
>   >
>   > All the best!
>   >
>   > -Andy
>   >
>   > Photography, Digital Print Consulting and Custom Editions
>   > Andrew Darlow Images International
>   > www.andydarlow.com
>   > andy@...
>   > Toll free- 1-877-ADarlow
>   >
>   >
>   > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
> other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>   >
>   > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>   >
>   > Please follow these basic guidelines:
>   > - Include your full name with your message.
>   > - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
>   > - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to
> keep them short.
>   > - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject
> header.
>   > - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or
> "flames."
>   > - Complete your Yahoo profile.
>   > - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
> resources on the homepage.
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> 
>         Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>               ADVERTISEMENT
> 
>   Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and
> other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
>   http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
>   Please follow these basic guidelines:
>   - Include your full name with your message.
>   - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
>   - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep
> them short.
>   - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
>   - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
>   - Complete your Yahoo profile.
>   - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various
> resources on the homepage.
> 
>   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
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Re: [Digital BW] Best method for printing b&w.

2002-01-11 by Jerry Olson

Is this epson dye ink available in the larger cartridges for its pro
printers? I would not give up my CIS system.

Jerry

Have you tried it on Legion's photomatte or Eclipse Satine?







toliwel@... wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> 
> Jerry, I've been using epson dye black with my color MIS pigments for several
> years now.  It does give a significantly deeper black on mat and watercolor
> papers.  I also use it with MIS quads.  I found that I get the deepest
> blacks, as well as the most brilliant colors, on epson HWM, Archival mat, and
> Mediastreet royal plush.  All papers are not equal in their ability to give a
> good deep black.  Even with a slight difference in black an image looks
> significantly better, in my opinion.
> 
> In my window tests, the epson dye black lasts well on some papers.  On
> others, it can fade fast.  The longest on HWM,  Royal plush and AM a close
> second.  There are others that tested out well, but I don't remember them off
> hand.  It also lasts well on photopaper.  On some papers, particularly the
> majority of watercolor papers, its life can be short.  It pays to do some
> window tests with a known combination to guage relative life.  I have done
> some testing with the MIS 1270 dye black.  It seems to be equivilent to the
> epson in blackness and longevity.  In contrast, the old MIS dye black had a
> very short life in my tests.
>

Re: [Digital BW] Best method for printing b&w.

2002-01-11 by Jerry Olson

I would think, if a dye black ink were put down on the paper along with
5 other shades of PIGment blacks and grays, that the pigments would hold
it in line a bit, and that it wouldn't fade so fast.  But is the epson
black dye available in 4 ounce cartridges or larger, so it could be
decanted into a 4 ounce bottle?

Jerry


shashinka@... wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> 
> In a message dated 1/10/02 7:56:31 PM, michael.kravit@... writes:
> 
> << Jerry,
> 
> I have a print made with the new Epson black dye sitting right next to me.
> It is not green at all. The black ink is as neutral as I have seen.
> 
> Mike >>
> 
> Hi Mike and Jerry:
> 
> I should add that it took between 2-3 months to begin to turn green behind a
> double plane of glass getting about 12 hrs light/day; normal treatment might
> not pose any problems.
> 
> All the best,
> 
> Andy
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various resources on the homepage.
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Re: [Digital BW] Best method for printing b&w.

2002-01-11 by shashinka@aol.com

In a message dated 1/11/02 12:19:21 PM, jerryolson@... writes:

<< I haven't seen the original 1280 inks fade, not even in 3 months of
sunlight window torture, but that is just too expensive. Need bulk inks!

Jerry >>

If you really want Epson black dye, just buy a 10000 cart and suck the ink 
out.  That's 500ml for about $100.  I think MIS from the bottle is 
considerably less though.

-Andy Darlow

Re: [Digital BW] Best method for printing b&w.

2002-01-11 by Moreno Polloni

> You can't get epson in bulk, and I'd never go back to cartridges.

You can, sort of. Just buy the individual 9000 or 10000 carts and pour those
into your CIS.

Re: [Digital BW] Best method for printing b&w.

2002-01-11 by mkravit

Jerry,

I was offline for a couple of days with a computer crash.

Anyway, the 1270 dyes were very problematic. They faded and turned 
all sorts of colors.

The newest dyes in the 1280, (7000/9000 just released dye only) and 
the 10000 all have the 26 year dyes. The black did not fade in my 
tests. The black is their most stable color from what I have heard.

Try it.

Mike

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Jerry Olson 
<jerryolson@r...> wrote:
> Micheal, Which epson dye, the one that comes with the 1280 
printer?  I'm
> going to try the MIS black Dye ink.
> 
> You can't get epson in bulk, and I'd never go back to cartridges.
> 
> Jerry
> 
> I haven't seen the original 1280 inks fade, not even in 3 months of
> sunlight window torture, but that is just too expensive. Need bulk 
inks!
> 
> Jerry
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "Michael J. Kravit" wrote:
> > 
> > Jerry,
> > 
> > I have a print made with the new Epson black dye sitting right 
next to me.
> > It is not green at all. The black ink is as neutral as I have 
seen.
> > 
> > Mike
> >   -----Original Message-----
> >   From: Jerry Olson [mailto:jerryolson@r...]
> >   Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2002 6:28 PM
> >   To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y...
> >   Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Best method for printing b&w.
> > 
> >   I had double density black, and it was extremely close to the 
VM black.
> >   I think the VM is slightly deeper.
> > 
> >   I'll do dip and dunk tests with the MIS Dye blacks, put it in a 
kleenex
> >   to see if there is any green that comes out of it, and put it a 
couple
> >   inches from a 100 watt bulb for a few weeks to see what happens.
> > 
> >   If there's any metamerism, I won't use it.  I know the Epson 
dye is
> >   green in daylight, but that is with gray tones. Do you think 
the actual
> >   black ink itself would turn green if it only prints pure black, 
which I
> >   assume that's all it does in a 6 color printer.
> > 
> >   Jerry
> > 
> >   shashinka@a... wrote:
> >   >
> >   > In a message dated 1/9/02 11:49:58 PM, shashinka@a... writes:
> >   >
> >   > << Jerry:
> >   >
> >   > I've seen the Epson dye black(probably similiar to the MIS) 
and it turns
> >   > absolutely green after heavy exposure, so I think that the G4 
beta black
> > is
> >   > as far as I would go .
> >   >
> >   > -Andy Darlow >>
> >   >
> >   > Hi again:
> >   >
> >   > The Indelible black might also be one to try, but I doubt 
there's much
> >   > density diference between it and MIS double density black.  
Any
> > comments?
> >   >
> >   > All the best!
> >   >
> >   > -Andy
> >   >
> >   > Photography, Digital Print Consulting and Custom Editions
> >   > Andrew Darlow Images International
> >   > www.andydarlow.com
> >   > andy@a...
> >   > Toll free- 1-877-ADarlow
> >   >
> >   >
> >   > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, 
Bookmarks, Polls and
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Re: [Digital BW] Best method for printing b&w.

2002-01-11 by mkravit

Jerry,

This dye is available in 500ml (1 pint) carts for the 10000, also 
9000 & 7000 carts. You could then drain it out.

Mike

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., Jerry Olson 
<jerryolson@r...> wrote:
> Is this epson dye ink available in the larger cartridges for its pro
> printers? I would not give up my CIS system.
> 
> Jerry
> 
> Have you tried it on Legion's photomatte or Eclipse Satine?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> toliwel@a... wrote:
> > 
> > Jerry, I've been using epson dye black with my color MIS pigments 
for several
> > years now.  It does give a significantly deeper black on mat and 
watercolor
> > papers.  I also use it with MIS quads.  I found that I get the 
deepest
> > blacks, as well as the most brilliant colors, on epson HWM, 
Archival mat, and
> > Mediastreet royal plush.  All papers are not equal in their 
ability to give a
> > good deep black.  Even with a slight difference in black an image 
looks
> > significantly better, in my opinion.
> > 
> > In my window tests, the epson dye black lasts well on some 
papers.  On
> > others, it can fade fast.  The longest on HWM,  Royal plush and 
AM a close
> > second.  There are others that tested out well, but I don't 
remember them off
> > hand.  It also lasts well on photopaper.  On some papers, 
particularly the
> > majority of watercolor papers, its life can be short.  It pays to 
do some
> > window tests with a known combination to guage relative life.  I 
have done
> > some testing with the MIS 1270 dye black.  It seems to be 
equivilent to the
> > epson in blackness and longevity.  In contrast, the old MIS dye 
black had a
> > very short life in my tests.
> >

Re: [Digital BW] Best method for printing b&w.

2002-01-11 by mkravit

Guys,

I still have to tell you that there must be a way to get denser 
blacks with the MIS VM/FS black. If wish I could show you what the 
RIP I am using is doing for the blacks.

Mike


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Moreno Polloni" <mp@d...> 
wrote:
> > You can't get epson in bulk, and I'd never go back to cartridges.
> 
> You can, sort of. Just buy the individual 9000 or 10000 carts and 
pour those
> into your CIS.

Re: [Digital BW] Best method for printing b&w.

2002-01-11 by Todd Flashner

on 1/11/02 3:23 PM, mkravit wrote:

> Anyway, the 1270 dyes were very problematic. They faded and turned
> all sorts of colors.
> 
> The newest dyes in the 1280, (7000/9000 just released dye only) and
> the 10000 all have the 26 year dyes. The black did not fade in my
> tests. The black is their most stable color from what I have heard.

Mike,

Are you saying the new dyes they are releasing for the 7000/9000 are the
same as or different than the dyes for the 1270? I'm wondering if Epson ever
came up with a fix for the 1270's cyan dye that was very susceptible to
rapid fading when exposed to ozone.

Todd

Re: [Digital BW] Best method for printing b&w.

2002-01-11 by mkravit

Todd,

No, this is not the dye used in the 1270. I have attached below the 
Epson press release.....

----------------------------------------------------------------

EPSON Releases Alternate Photographic Dye Ink Cartridges for Stylus 
Pro 7000/9000 Printers 

LONG BEACH, Calif. - Oct. 31, 2001 - Epson America Inc., creator of 
high quality award-winning digital imaging products, will be offering 
photographers and graphics professionals alternate dye inks for the 
EPSON Stylus® Pro 9000 and EPSON Stylus Pro 7000 color printers that 
deliver improved lightfastness¹ and achieve better short-term 
stability.

Based on the demand for greater image stability, both for short and 
long term, Epson will offer the same EPSON Photographic Dye™ inks for 
the Stylus Pro 9000 and Stylus Pro 7000 wide format printers that are 
being used in the EPSON Stylus Pro 10000. The new ink set consists of 
an improved yellow and light magenta. These two Photographic Dye inks 
combined with the existing black, cyan, light cyan and magenta EPSON 
Standard Dye inks currently used in the 7000 and 9000 will deliver 
prints with lightfastness rated up to 26 years under glass, as well 
as greater color stability within the first 24 hours after printing. 
No changes are planned for the black, cyan, light cyan and magenta 
inks.
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Mike

Re: [Digital BW] Best method for printing b&w.

2002-01-11 by Jerry Olson

Yup, I sent for the MIS dye black. $24 A PINT.  

Jerry




shashinka@... wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> 
> In a message dated 1/11/02 12:19:21 PM, jerryolson@... writes:
> 
> << I haven't seen the original 1280 inks fade, not even in 3 months of
> sunlight window torture, but that is just too expensive. Need bulk inks!
> 
> Jerry >>
> 
> If you really want Epson black dye, just buy a 10000 cart and suck the ink
> out.  That's 500ml for about $100.  I think MIS from the bottle is
> considerably less though.
> 
> -Andy Darlow
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
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Re: [Digital BW] Best method for printing b&w.

2002-01-11 by Jerry Olson

But How much is a RIP and how hard it to use? Downsides?  I'm on the
1280. I sent for the MIS Black Dye, we'll see if it makes a difference.

Jerry



mkravit wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> 
> Guys,
> 
> I still have to tell you that there must be a way to get denser
> blacks with the MIS VM/FS black. If wish I could show you what the
> RIP I am using is doing for the blacks.
> 
> Mike
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Moreno Polloni" <mp@d...>
> wrote:
> > > You can't get epson in bulk, and I'd never go back to cartridges.
> >
> > You can, sort of. Just buy the individual 9000 or 10000 carts and
> pour those
> > into your CIS.
> 
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
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Re: [Digital BW] Best method for printing b&w.

2002-01-12 by Michael Kravit

Jerry,

Where did you find it for $24?
Was it a 10000 cartridge?

Mike
Show quoted textHide quoted text
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Jerry Olson 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Friday, January 11, 2002 5:02 PM
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Best method for printing b&w.


  Yup, I sent for the MIS dye black. $24 A PINT.  

  Jerry




  shashinka@... wrote:
  > 
  > In a message dated 1/11/02 12:19:21 PM, jerryolson@... writes:
  > 
  > << I haven't seen the original 1280 inks fade, not even in 3 months of
  > sunlight window torture, but that is just too expensive. Need bulk inks!
  > 
  > Jerry >>
  > 
  > If you really want Epson black dye, just buy a 10000 cart and suck the ink
  > out.  That's 500ml for about $100.  I think MIS from the bottle is
  > considerably less though.
  > 
  > -Andy Darlow
  > 
  > 
  > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
  > 
  > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
  > 
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  > 
  > 
  > 
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

MIS Full Spectrum color (not Quadtone) inks (was Re: Best method for printing b&w.)

2002-01-12 by Sam A. McCandless

>Yup, I sent for the MIS dye black. $24 A PINT.
>
>Jerry

Since Jerry wrote simply "dye" rather than "pigment-dye" or "blended" 
black, I guess what he ordered is not the new MIS Full Spectrum (but 
not Full Spectrum _Quadtone_) black. The following quote is from 
<inksupply.com>, under the "Hot" (but dated mid-November!) button on 
the first page:

>We have been testing some new inks. They are archival, similar to 
>our regular archival inks in terms of permanence. However, they 
>print just like Epson inks and produce vivid, full gamut color 
>prints. They are a blended dyebased-pigmented ink. We have been 
>looking for a long lasting ink that can make dyebased equivalent 
>prints. This is it. We are in the beta phase, and will not release 
>this ink on the website until we have some official, Wilhelm type, 
>permanence testing done. This is going to take at least 6 months, so 
>in the interim, if you wish to try out this new ink, give us a call. 
>We will make you a beta tester. This does not mean it is free, it 
>just means that you can use it now. Price is less than the MIS 
>Archival inks we are selling now.

I called and was told that their Full Spectrum inkset is out of beta, 
and that all its inks, not just the black (a la MediaStreet's 
Enhanced Generations), are dye-pigment hybrids. But they wouldn't say 
in which proportions (I think MediaStreet says their Gen4 black is 25 
percent dye), what the density of the black is (although they do for 
some of their other blacks), etc.

I'd be glad for any additional information about this inkset. I'm 
curious about it because it seems plausible that adding dyes to the 
colors and well as the black might have increased the gamut and 
decreased the metamerism without sacrificing any more of the 
longevity, compared to Gen4, than I'd be willing to trade off.

I don't know that it's black is any blacker than any of their pigment 
blacks or any lighter than their dye black. But obviously it might be 
a half-way house as a substitute for one of them.

As for myself, I'm more interested in the possibility of using the 
whole inkset as an alternative to Generations when I don't need 100+ 
Wilhelm years of longevity. But I'd be glad for any information about 
any of it, on- or off-list if not applicable to BW prints.

Thanks.

Sam             samcc@...

Re: [Digital BW] Best method for printing b&w.

2002-01-12 by Jerry Olson

Mike,

MIS sells their inks in 4 ounce bottles, pints, quarts, and gallons!  I
think it was only $85 for a gallon! They have a lot of different kinds
of ink. This is their Black dye ink, supposed to be equal to the new
black epson dye black ink.

I'll test it as soon as I get it.

Jerry



Michael Kravit wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
> 
> Jerry,
> 
> Where did you find it for $24?
> Was it a 10000 cartridge?
> 
> Mike
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: Jerry Olson
>   To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
>   Sent: Friday, January 11, 2002 5:02 PM
>   Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Best method for printing b&w.
> 
>   Yup, I sent for the MIS dye black. $24 A PINT.
> 
>   Jerry
> 
>   shashinka@... wrote:
>   >
>   > In a message dated 1/11/02 12:19:21 PM, jerryolson@... writes:
>   >
>   > << I haven't seen the original 1280 inks fade, not even in 3 months of
>   > sunlight window torture, but that is just too expensive. Need bulk inks!
>   >
>   > Jerry >>
>   >
>   > If you really want Epson black dye, just buy a 10000 cart and suck the ink
>   > out.  That's 500ml for about $100.  I think MIS from the bottle is
>   > considerably less though.
>   >
>   > -Andy Darlow
>   >
>   >
>   > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>   >
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Re: [Digital BW] Best method for printing b&w.

2002-01-12 by Michael Kravit

Jerry,

A pretty good deal. MIS is a great company, they sell good products at fair prices. Keep us informed on the tests.

Mike
Show quoted textHide quoted text
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Jerry Olson 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Saturday, January 12, 2002 4:04 PM
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Best method for printing b&w.


  Mike,

  MIS sells their inks in 4 ounce bottles, pints, quarts, and gallons!  I
  think it was only $85 for a gallon! They have a lot of different kinds
  of ink. This is their Black dye ink, supposed to be equal to the new
  black epson dye black ink.

  I'll test it as soon as I get it.

  Jerry



  Michael Kravit wrote:
  > 
  > Jerry,
  > 
  > Where did you find it for $24?
  > Was it a 10000 cartridge?
  > 
  > Mike
  >   ----- Original Message -----
  >   From: Jerry Olson
  >   To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
  >   Sent: Friday, January 11, 2002 5:02 PM
  >   Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Best method for printing b&w.
  > 
  >   Yup, I sent for the MIS dye black. $24 A PINT.
  > 
  >   Jerry
  > 
  >   shashinka@... wrote:
  >   >
  >   > In a message dated 1/11/02 12:19:21 PM, jerryolson@... writes:
  >   >
  >   > << I haven't seen the original 1280 inks fade, not even in 3 months of
  >   > sunlight window torture, but that is just too expensive. Need bulk inks!
  >   >
  >   > Jerry >>
  >   >
  >   > If you really want Epson black dye, just buy a 10000 cart and suck the ink
  >   > out.  That's 500ml for about $100.  I think MIS from the bottle is
  >   > considerably less though.
  >   >
  >   > -Andy Darlow
  >   >
  >   >
  >   > Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
  >   >
  >   > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Best method for printing b&w.

2002-01-15 by Jerry Olson

Mike, I haven't. But I'm going to. And if I see similar fading with
watercolors, I'm going to forget about fading problems altogether. If
Windsor Newton pigments fade in 3 months, I give up.  I don't expect any
buyer of my prints to display them in sunlight. All my Type C prints
from When I went to Brooks are totally faded. You can barely see an
image on any print in my portfolio. Some of these were on paper, some
were on RC papers, all have faded practically beyond recognition.  I
would not be a happy camper if my wedding photos were made in the late
sixties or the seventies.


Jerry

"Michael J. Kravit" wrote: 
> 
> Jerry,
> 
> It is funny you bring that up.
> 
> Have you ever placed a water color painting in the south facing window to
> test it's fading properties? Better not, the pigments fade!

AAAArrrrrgh!

Move to quarantaine

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