Digital BW, The Print

Hi All,

Having just had a judge at a camera club competition turn up his nose 
at the magenta cast on my B&W prints, I am about to get a new printer. 
Apart from really expensive ones - is there any printer that can be 
recommended for printing the best B&W prints. There are so many on the 
market that I am lost and even the photo mags don;t seem ot give 
enough info about B&W printing when reviewing these things. I am sure 
this has been asked a thousand times. If so just point me in the 
direction of the right post that wouold be great as well.

All the best - Helen

Helen

What do you have at the moment?  The magenta cast is not so much a printer
issue but rather a workflow issue.  The new Epson 2400 takes a lot of these
things off the table with a great deal of simplicity but very good B&W can
be had on much cheaper printers with the right ink and workflow.

Steve

> From: helen529123 <helenadams@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2006 16:00:07 -0000
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: [Digital BW] Which Printer?
> 
> Hi All,
> 
> Having just had a judge at a camera club competition turn up his nose
> at the magenta cast on my B&W prints, I am about to get a new printer.
> Apart from really expensive ones - is there any printer that can be
> recommended for printing the best B&W prints. There are so many on the
> market that I am lost and even the photo mags don;t seem ot give
> enough info about B&W printing when reviewing these things. I am sure
> this has been asked a thousand times. If so just point me in the
> direction of the right post that wouold be great as well.
> 
> All the best - Helen

Hi Steve,

Thanks for your response. Right now I have an old Lexmark X84/85 all in one printer. To be honest I quite like some of the results as it has a slight painterly quality which really suits my style. As you can probabaly guess I am very new to using Photoshop and working in a digital darkroom so there is a lot of room for improvement. The negs I used were scanned in from B&W film and I really like the quality of the scanned images and the detail from these.

All the best - Helen 


  Helen

  What do you have at the moment?  The magenta cast is not so much a printer
  issue but rather a workflow issue.  The new Epson 2400 takes a lot of these
  things off the table with a great deal of simplicity but very good B&W can
  be had on much cheaper printers with the right ink and workflow.

  Steve


  > From: helen529123 <helenadams@...>
  > Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
  > Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2006 16:00:07 -0000
  > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
  > Subject: [Digital BW] Which Printer?
  > 
  > Hi All,
  > 
  > Having just had a judge at a camera club competition turn up his nose
  > at the magenta cast on my B&W prints, I am about to get a new printer.
  > Apart from really expensive ones - is there any printer that can be
  > recommended for printing the best B&W prints. There are so many on the
  > market that I am lost and even the photo mags don;t seem ot give
  > enough info about B&W printing when reviewing these things. I am sure
  > this has been asked a thousand times. If so just point me in the
  > direction of the right post that wouold be great as well.
  > 
  > All the best - Helen




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Helen, For a really inexpensive starting point The
Epson R220 with MIS UT-R2 inset would be an excellent
choice and these can usually be had for less than $99
and frequently much less.  If you put Eboni from MIS
in the K position you could also do good Black Only
printing. This choice limits you to a max width of 8.5
inches, however.

If you need 13" width and ability to print continuous
tone B&W and color without changing carts then the
Epson 2400 with the OEM K3 inks or the MIS "K4" inks
would be the choice for you but this printer would
cost up front about 7-15 times more as it costs
~$700-$800 whilst the R220 can frequently be obtained
with rebates for as little as $25 and in the past with
certain Nikon cameras for free.

See Paul Roark's site for info about the MIS inks and
the R220 and Clayton Jone's site for info about BO and
the 2400 using the ABW driver (in essence a
proprietary B&W RIP) which Epson supplies with the
2400.

I have a 2200 and it is a great BO printer, but needs
2nd party inks (and usually) a RIP to get good
continuous tone B&W (such as Jon Cone's NK7) and I
would recommend this approach only if you ENJOY
tinkering with the process.

Welcome and good luck.

Michael Vendrell



--- Steve Kale <stevekale@...> wrote:

> Helen
> 
> What do you have at the moment?  The magenta cast is
> not so much a printer
> issue but rather a workflow issue.  The new Epson
> 2400 takes a lot of these
> things off the table with a great deal of simplicity
> but very good B&W can
> be had on much cheaper printers with the right ink
> and workflow.
> 
> Steve
> 
> 
> > From: helen529123 <helenadams@...>
> > Reply-To:
> <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> > Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2006 16:00:07 -0000
> > To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> > Subject: [Digital BW] Which Printer?
> > 
> > Hi All,
> > 
> > Having just had a judge at a camera club
> competition turn up his nose
> > at the magenta cast on my B&W prints, I am about
> to get a new printer.
> > Apart from really expensive ones - is there any
> printer that can be
> > recommended for printing the best B&W prints.
> There are so many on the
> > market that I am lost and even the photo mags
> don;t seem ot give
> > enough info about B&W printing when reviewing
> these things. I am sure
> > this has been asked a thousand times. If so just
> point me in the
> > direction of the right post that wouold be great
> as well.
> > 
> > All the best - Helen
> 
> 
> 


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com

Take a read through this forum's posts over the last few days, particularly
the discussion re the Epson R220 and Paul Roark's "Latest B&W Ink Set".  It
doesn't get much cheaper than that - circa $100.  At the other end of the
scale there is the Epson 2400 which produces superb B&W (and colour) out of
the box.  I just noticed that you're in the UK...well I'm sure you can hunt
down local pricing (less than £60 incl delivery for the R220 and £520 for
the R2400).  Getting MIS ink sets sent over here is a pretty easy process.
(www.inksupply.com)  Keep reading here and think about your price point.
Come back with any further questions.

(Please remember to trim your posts.)

> From: Helen Adams <helenadams@...>


> Thanks for your response. Right now I have an old Lexmark X84/85 all in one
> printer. To be honest I quite like some of the results as it has a slight
> painterly quality which really suits my style. As you can probabaly guess I am
> very new to using Photoshop and working in a digital darkroom so there is a
> lot of room for improvement. The negs I used were scanned in from B&W film and
> I really like the quality of the scanned images and the detail from these.
>

My impression, Helen, mostly from pouring over this list's posts with 
the same question in mind, is that nearly all small-format B&W 
printers should consider Epson's R220 "page" printer for not more 
than about $100. Look through Paul Roark's posts, and on his web 
site, for information about using the 220 for B&W.

When 220 refurb's start to show up in the Clearance Center of Epson's 
on-line store, I expect they'll be about $60, as the R200 already is. 
You might even find a new one for that. And that includes the ink 
cartridges, which I believe are the same carts the 220 uses. But a 
set of the carts alone is also about $60, even at Atlex.com.

So if you see a re-furbished R200 first, you might want to consider 
buying it. For black-only (BO) B&W printing, I think it might be 
about as good anyway. The R200 is also a good "office" printer. And 
can also be a good and relatively-inexpensive proofing printer for 
Epson's larger R2400. Look for Clayton Jones's posts, and on his web 
site, for information about that (and for paper reviews too).

I haven't seen any R2400 refurb's yet either. Recently I paid 
Amazon's US store 765.69 US dollars for a new 2400. It would have 
been more economical to have waited for a 2400 refurb and spent the 
time getting up to speed on color management and paper and ink stuff 
using the R200/220 platform.

There are at least three other less-expensive 13-inch wide Epson 
Photo possibilities, the R1280, R1800, and the R2200. Each with a 
case to be made for it vs. the R2400 given the differences in cost. I 
think the question for you might be for how many printers do you want 
to invest in researching the details? That could be costly too, and 
your post makes me think you'd rather not do it anyway. So you might 
consider focusing just on how to make the most of the newer R200/R220 
and R2400 options.
--
Sam


At 4:00 PM +0000 2/11/06, helen529123 wrote:

>
>[snip]
>
>Having just had a judge at a camera club competition turn up his nose
>at the magenta cast on my B&W prints, I am about to get a new printer.
>Apart from really expensive ones - is there any printer that can be
>recommended for printing the best B&W prints. There are so many on the
>market that I am lost and even the photo mags don;t seem ot give
>enough info about B&W printing when reviewing these things. I am sure
>this has been asked a thousand times. If so just point me in the
>direction of the right post that wouold be great as well.
>
>[snip]
>

Hi Helen,

I'm not sure how wise this piece of advice is, but I'd seriously
consider buying a second-hand 2200 if you wanted to start experiments
with B&W printing at a a comparatively low cost. There are lots of
them on eBay. I'd be interested to hear the group's opinion on this one.

In the meantime, if you want some prints that the judge might not turn
his nose up at, I'd be happy to print a couple of your pictures as an
example of the 2200's capabilities. email me off list if you want.

Best,
Helen 


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "helen529123"
<helenadams@...> wrote:

>
> Hi All,
> 
> Having just had a judge at a camera club competition turn up his nose 
> at the magenta cast on my B&W prints...

> 
> ... I'd seriously
> consider buying a second-hand 2200 if you wanted to start experiments
> with B&W printing at a a comparatively low cost. There are lots of
> them on eBay. I'd be interested to hear the group's opinion on this one.
> ...

The next UT variable tone step will be ported to the 2200 next week.  It's
the first UT with a 3D space -- Lab a* and b* controls.  (See my post at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/message/73803 )

I, too, see the 2200 as the logical, readily available 13" step up from the
R220.  (The "UT-3D" [current tentative name] should work on all modern Epson
hextone and UC K2 printers.) 

Note that once we go to the industry standard working spaces, ICCs, and
linearized printing, those with small printers will be able to have service
bureaus with large format printers take care of their occasional large print
requirements much more easily.  Large format printers are best dealt with by
those who do enough volume to keep the expensive beasts running right.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

I'm curious about the 2400. I've read in reviews that it can produce
a darn good B&W print out of the box yet, evidently, it cannot do BO
printing.
I had decided to finally buy one last weekend when Page Computer had
them on sale for $675 with FREE shipping. (It has since gone back up
to their regular price, btw)

 My question is, how do the 2400 prints compare with those made by the
200 BO or the 2200? And, forgive me, but how is it that the 2200 can
do BO but the 2400 cannot?

 I'm new to this group and am admitedly confused. I hope I did not err
in ordering the 2400.
:<

Howard


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "helen_bach2003"
<helenbach@...> wrote:

>
> Hi Helen,
> 
> I'm not sure how wise this piece of advice is, but I'd seriously
> consider buying a second-hand 2200 if you wanted to start experiments
> with B&W printing at a a comparatively low cost. There are lots of
> them on eBay. I'd be interested to hear the group's opinion on this one.
> 
> In the meantime, if you want some prints that the judge might not turn
> his nose up at, I'd be happy to print a couple of your pictures as an
> example of the 2200's capabilities. email me off list if you want.
> 
> Best,
> Helen 
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "helen529123"
> <helenadams@> wrote:
> >
> > Hi All,
> > 
> > Having just had a judge at a camera club competition turn up his nose 
> > at the magenta cast on my B&W prints...
>

BO is a driver feature, the R2400 lacks it. The R2400's prints will be 
smootehr tone-wise and have better highlight detail, but less lumiunous 
whites.

-Adam



how786 wrote:

>   I'm curious about the 2400. I've read in reviews that it can produce
> a darn good B&W print out of the box yet, evidently, it cannot do BO
> printing.
> I had decided to finally buy one last weekend when Page Computer had
> them on sale for $675 with FREE shipping. (It has since gone back up
> to their regular price, btw)
>
> My question is, how do the 2400 prints compare with those made by the
> 200 BO or the 2200? And, forgive me, but how is it that the 2200 can
> do BO but the 2400 cannot?
>
> I'm new to this group and am admitedly confused. I hope I did not err
> in ordering the 2400.
> :<
>
> Howard
>
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "helen_bach2003"
> <helenbach@...> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Helen,
> >
> > I'm not sure how wise this piece of advice is, but I'd seriously
> > consider buying a second-hand 2200 if you wanted to start experiments
> > with B&W printing at a a comparatively low cost. There are lots of
> > them on eBay. I'd be interested to hear the group's opinion on this one.
> >
> > In the meantime, if you want some prints that the judge might not turn
> > his nose up at, I'd be happy to print a couple of your pictures as an
> > example of the 2200's capabilities. email me off list if you want.
> >
> > Best,
> > Helen
> >
> >
> > --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "helen529123"
> > <helenadams@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi All,
> > >
> > > Having just had a judge at a camera club competition turn up his nose
> > > at the magenta cast on my B&W prints...
> >
>
>
>

Hi Howard:
You'll get much more expert advice from the gurus here, but the 2400 is 
superior to the 2200 for both B&W and color. You made the right choice.
The 2400 DOES do B&W printing in the ABW mode. It's not exactly "BO" because 
it uses two shades of gray ink as well as black. At least that's how I 
understand it.
I don't have a 2400 yet, but I hope to replace my 2200 with a 2400 sometime 
soon.
Bert

katzung1@...
www.astronomy-images.com
www.visionlightgallery.com/katzung/

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "how786" <how786@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, February 11, 2006 8:38 PM
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Which Printer?


  I'm curious about the 2400. I've read in reviews that it can produce
a darn good B&W print out of the box yet, evidently, it cannot do BO
printing.
I had decided to finally buy one last weekend when Page Computer had
them on sale for $675 with FREE shipping. (It has since gone back up
to their regular price, btw)

 My question is, how do the 2400 prints compare with those made by the
200 BO or the 2200? And, forgive me, but how is it that the 2200 can
do BO but the 2400 cannot?

 I'm new to this group and am admitedly confused. I hope I did not err
in ordering the 2400.
:<

Howard


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "helen_bach2003"
<helenbach@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Helen,
>
> I'm not sure how wise this piece of advice is, but I'd seriously
> consider buying a second-hand 2200 if you wanted to start experiments
> with B&W printing at a a comparatively low cost. There are lots of
> them on eBay. I'd be interested to hear the group's opinion on this one.
>
> In the meantime, if you want some prints that the judge might not turn
> his nose up at, I'd be happy to print a couple of your pictures as an
> example of the 2200's capabilities. email me off list if you want.
>
> Best,
> Helen
>
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "helen529123"
> <helenadams@> wrote:
> >
> > Hi All,
> >
> > Having just had a judge at a camera club competition turn up his nose
> > at the magenta cast on my B&W prints...
>










Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, and other resources as 
they are often being updated.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

If you wish to receive no emails or just a daily digest, or you wish to 
unsubscribe, please edit your Membership preferences by visiting this same 
page.

Please follow these basic guidelines:
- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep 
them short.
- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or flames. 
Hostile, aggressive or argumentative users may be removed from the 
membership without notice.
- Keep your posts and threads related to the group topic of digital B&W 
printing. Users who persistently make off-topic posts may be removed from 
the membership.
- By posting on this forum you agree to abide by the group rules and 
guidelines, and to abide by the actions and decisions of the group Owner and 
Moderators. See "Group Topic, Rules and Guidelines" in the Files section:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/files/

BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT 
YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE "OWNER" AND 
"MODERATORS" OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU 
FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY 
DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, 
GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  "OWNER" AND 
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POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY 
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ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY 
THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER 
MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.

Yahoo! Groups Links

Albeit be aware that the 2100 has been completely dropped from Epson's
range. It will be interesting to see how long one can still buy one new.

> From: Paul Roark <paul.roark@...>

> 
> I, too, see the 2200 as the logical, readily available 13" step up from the
> R220.

Epson do not consider BO as a photographic workflow.  They consider it a
text printing setting.  With the 2400 they evolved the driver to improve
even its text printing to using the other inks.

I don't have a 2400 but rather I bought the 4800.  Nonetheless the
comparison is likely very valid for potential 2400 purchasers.  The 4800
blows the 21/2200 away out of the box.  You will not be disappointed.

> From: how786 <how786@...>
> Reply-To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2006 04:38:11 -0000
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Which Printer?
> 
>   I'm curious about the 2400. I've read in reviews that it can produce
> a darn good B&W print out of the box yet, evidently, it cannot do BO
> printing.
> I had decided to finally buy one last weekend when Page Computer had
> them on sale for $675 with FREE shipping. (It has since gone back up
> to their regular price, btw)
> 
>  My question is, how do the 2400 prints compare with those made by the
> 200 BO or the 2200? And, forgive me, but how is it that the 2200 can
> do BO but the 2400 cannot?
> 
>  I'm new to this group and am admitedly confused. I hope I did not err
> in ordering the 2400.
> :<
> 
> Howard

Helen,

 If you like the results and the quality why not stay with it until you 
need something different?

The best way not to get (often ignorant) comments from club judges is 
not to put pictures into club competitions.

Regards

Peter Marshall
petermarshall@...   
_________________________________________________________________
My London Diary	              http://mylondondiary.co.uk/
London's Industrial Heritage: http://petermarshallphotos.co.uk/
The Buildings of London etc:  http://londonphotographs.co.uk/
and elsewhere......



Steve Kale wrote:

>Take a read through this forum's posts over the last few days, particularly
>the discussion re the Epson R220 and Paul Roark's "Latest B&W Ink Set".  It
>doesn't get much cheaper than that - circa $100.  At the other end of the
>scale there is the Epson 2400 which produces superb B&W (and colour) out of
>the box.  I just noticed that you're in the UK...well I'm sure you can hunt
>down local pricing (less than \ufffd60 incl delivery for the R220 and \ufffd520 for
>the R2400).  Getting MIS ink sets sent over here is a pretty easy process.
>(www.inksupply.com)  Keep reading here and think about your price point.
>Come back with any further questions.
>  
>
>>From: Helen Adams <helenadams@...>
>>
>>printer. To be honest I quite like some of the results as it has a slight
>>painterly quality which really suits my style. As you can probabaly guess I 
>>    
>>

My R220, with MIS inks, are exactly what I wanted for getting into digital 
black and white.  8.5 x 11 is not a serious constraint for me, as I seldom 
wet-printed larger than that.  I have absolutely no regrets so far.  For the 
expense of larger printers, I am willing to let someone else print for me on 
occasion if I need it.

Frank Vincent

Thanks for all the feedback everyone. I feel reassured that I made
the correct purchase.
 I guess I could always use a 220 if I want to try BO 8x10s.
Howard

Hello Howard,

>Thanks for all the feedback everyone. I feel reassured that I made
>the correct purchase.
>I guess I could always use a 220 if I want to try BO 8x10s.

You are exactly right.  I used to use a 2200 for BO printing.  Last
August it developed serious problems in the paper feed mechanism so I
traded in in for a 2400 and love it, but no BO.  So I got an R200
(precursor to 220) for that and it does a good job.  I also use it to
do all my proofing in BO, and save the 2400 for final prints (reduces
ink cost).  I'm working on a new web site article outlining my
workflow for this.  For now there is one describing the 2400 workflow
(#9 at the link below).  The new one will tie into this.

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

I appreciate your help Clayton and also the wealth of information so
generously posted on your site! I look forward to the new article.
Regards,
Howard


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Clayton Jones"
<cj@...> wrote:

>
> Hello Howard,
> 
> >Thanks for all the feedback everyone. I feel reassured that I made
> >the correct purchase.
> >I guess I could always use a 220 if I want to try BO 8x10s.
> 
> You are exactly right.  I used to use a 2200 for BO printing.  Last
> August it developed serious problems in the paper feed mechanism so I
> traded in in for a 2400 and love it, but no BO.  So I got an R200
> (precursor to 220) for that and it does a good job.  I also use it to
> do all my proofing in BO, and save the 2400 for final prints (reduces
> ink cost).  I'm working on a new web site article outlining my
> workflow for this.  For now there is one describing the 2400 workflow
> (#9 at the link below).  The new one will tie into this.
> 
> Regards,
> Clayton
> 
> 
> Info on black and white digital printing at    
> http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm
>

Hi Peter,

Thanks for your input. Yes - I guess I could stop putting pictures in club competitions. I guess the buzz for me was that despite his comments about the magenta cast a number of others came up afterwards and said how much they liked the composition and light effect etc. I guess I could always print in sepia or one of the other colour tones and presumably this would do away with the problem as well. But as the R220 is quite inexpensive I am quite happy to experiment and use if for a BO printer. 

All the best - Helen




  Helen,

  If you like the results and the quality why not stay with it until you 
  need something different?

  The best way not to get (often ignorant) comments from club judges is 
  not to put pictures into club competitions.

  Regards

  Peter Marshall
  petermarshall@...   
  _________________________________________________________________
  My London Diary                    http://mylondondiary.co.uk/
  London's Industrial Heritage: http://petermarshallphotos.co.uk/
  The Buildings of London etc:  http://londonphotographs.co.uk/
  and elsewhere......



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Helen,

Thanks for your really kind offer. I had a look at Ebay a few days ago and was not sure whether it would be better to get a new cheap printer or a second-hand more expensive one. I guess it is the luck of the draw, as I couldn't see any that I would have been happy buying, but I'll keep my eyes open on this, as it is possible that a good printer at a good price will come along. 

I'll email you off list about the printing as I would be interested to see the quality.

All the best - Helen


  Hi Helen,

  I'm not sure how wise this piece of advice is, but I'd seriously
  consider buying a second-hand 2200 if you wanted to start experiments
  with B&W printing at a a comparatively low cost. There are lots of
  them on eBay. I'd be interested to hear the group's opinion on this one.

  In the meantime, if you want some prints that the judge might not turn
  his nose up at, I'd be happy to print a couple of your pictures as an
  example of the 2200's capabilities. email me off list if you want.

  Best,
  Helen 





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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Helens,

In Spanish you are "tocayas",  i.e you have the same
name. I agree with you both. 

I have a 2200 and it is a great platform for tinkering
in the 13" width - IF you ENJOY (as I believe I said
in my original reply) experimenting with the process. 
For many of us this experimenting is an important part
of our learning process - for others it is a
distraction.  The dollars or pounds "saved" by buying
a used 2200 vs a new 2400 would in my experience soon
be erased by the alternative ink sets, paper testing,
RIP purchase, etc. So the 2400 would be much better
"out of the box" whilst the 2200 would involve you in
the process and be a great tool for learning - and in
the end you would also have some great looking prints.


In my darkroom days, I learned by and through the
experimentation process and sometimes some very
"creative" and pleasing (to me) images came out of my
not knowing which rules not to break and chance
"errors". For a similar experience you might be
interested in the Nick Brandt images and interview in
the  "Lens Work" issue before last.

In the digital "light room", I stumbled onto Black
Only printing myself before coming to this group.
(Since then I have benefittted greatly from learning 
how Clayton refined the process through his
experiments.) If you believe the pop-up from the Epson
driver - it is "not suitable for photographic
printing."


I hope to soon purchase an 2400 or X800 series and
given my personality I probably won't be able to leave
those alone either - although by all accounts they are
very good if not excellent "out of the box."

All this to say - what really matters is what really
matters for YOU!

All the best,

Michael

--- Helen Adams <helenadams@...> wrote:

> Hi Helen,
> 
> Thanks for your really kind offer. I had a look at
> Ebay a few days ago and was not sure whether it
> would be better to get a new cheap printer or a
> second-hand more expensive one. I guess it is the
> luck of the draw, as I couldn't see any that I would
> have been happy buying, but I'll keep my eyes open
> on this, as it is possible that a good printer at a
> good price will come along. 
> 
> I'll email you off list about the printing as I
> would be interested to see the quality.
> 
> All the best - Helen
> 
> 
>   Hi Helen,
> 
>   I'm not sure how wise this piece of advice is, but
> I'd seriously
>   consider buying a second-hand 2200 if you wanted
> to start experiments
>   with B&W printing at a a comparatively low cost.
> There are lots of
>   them on eBay. I'd be interested to hear the
> group's opinion on this one.
> 
>   In the meantime, if you want some prints that the
> judge might not turn
>   his nose up at, I'd be happy to print a couple of
> your pictures as an
>   example of the 2200's capabilities. email me off
> list if you want.
> 
>   Best,
>   Helen 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>   SPONSORED LINKS Digital wedding photography  Learn
> digital photography  Digital photography college  
>         Digital photography  Digital photography web
> site  Digital photography course  
> 
> 
>
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> 
>     a..  Visit your group
> "DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint" on the web.
>       
>     b..  To unsubscribe from this group, send an
> email to:
>     
>
DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>       
>     c..  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the
> Yahoo! Terms of Service. 
> 
> 
>
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> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
> 
> 


__________________________________________________
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http://mail.yahoo.com

The best way to avoid "(often ignorant) comments " is never to show
your pictures to anyone - a big mistake.  If you show your work and
get comments, you will always run the risk of getting poor advice,
whether you get it from club judges or professional photographers. 
Take all commentary and advice with a grain of salt, but consider it
carefully because you can learn from it.  Even comments from
non-photographers is valuable, telling you at least someone's reaction
to your work.  

Even knowing that sometimes my work will be judged by someone who is
not fully expert, and with whom my opinions may differ, I count my
participation in camera clubs, including competitions, as the most
valuable single way I have developed as a photographer. This is true
for many others.

As for the matter of the magenta cast on BW photographs, this and
other color casts in BW digital images is a substantial problem with
several printers and drivers, one that most people on this list would
recognize as a problem, and one that can be overcome by numerous means
that are discussed vigorously on this list.  It is true that if Helen
likes this cast she should stick with it, but most knowledgable
photographers will regard this as undesirable except in a few special
cases, not just those "(often ignorant)" club judges.

Bailey Donnally

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Peter Marshall
<petermarshall@...> wrote:

>
> Helen,
> 
>  If you like the results and the quality why not stay with it until you 
> need something different?
> 
> The best way not to get (often ignorant) comments from club judges is 
> not to put pictures into club competitions.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Peter Marshall
> petermarshall@...   
>

Hi Bailey,

Nice to hear from you. I am quite happy to continue putting my work into club competitions because I agree with you, that whether the comments are misplaced or not they always have value, and I have learnt a lot from considering what has been said to me. I understand that a magenta cast is undesirable to many professional photographers - which is why I would like to have the option of printing both with and without it. I am a born experimenter and really enjoy 'not' doing things as they are classically done - and the interesting and sometimes horrible results that come out of this. But it would also be good, I feel, to be able to produce classic B&W prints that are as they should be when I need to. Right now it seems to be up to the mood of the printer!!!!

Currently bidding on a refurbed Epson Photo 2200 so we'll see!!!!! Fingers crossed and hopefully many more experiments in the pipeline.

All the best - Helen





  The best way to avoid "(often ignorant) comments " is never to show
  your pictures to anyone - a big mistake.  If you show your work and
  get comments, you will always run the risk of getting poor advice,
  whether you get it from club judges or professional photographers. 
  Take all commentary and advice with a grain of salt, but consider it
  carefully because you can learn from it.  Even comments from
  non-photographers is valuable, telling you at least someone's reaction
  to your work.  

  Even knowing that sometimes my work will be judged by someone who is
  not fully expert, and with whom my opinions may differ, I count my
  participation in camera clubs, including competitions, as the most
  valuable single way I have developed as a photographer. This is true
  for many others.

  As for the matter of the magenta cast on BW photographs, this and
  other color casts in BW digital images is a substantial problem with
  several printers and drivers, one that most people on this list would
  recognize as a problem, and one that can be overcome by numerous means
  that are discussed vigorously on this list.  It is true that if Helen
  likes this cast she should stick with it, but most knowledgable
  photographers will regard this as undesirable except in a few special
  cases, not just those "(often ignorant)" club judges.

  Bailey Donnally

  --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Peter Marshall
  <petermarshall@...> wrote:
  >
  > Helen,
  > 
  >  If you like the results and the quality why not stay with it until you 
  > need something different?
  > 
  > The best way not to get (often ignorant) comments from club judges is 
  > not to put pictures into club competitions.
  > 
  > Regards
  > 
  > Peter Marshall
  > petermarshall@...   
  >




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Michael,

I guess my inclination is to want to experiment and to be able to produce top class B&W prints from my printer. I really enjoy trying different things out but also want to put together a body of work that looks professional and not haphazard so I need that element of control. Then I can have magenta running through my work if it has meaning for me and I want it, and pure B&W when this is required. But it is certainly this element of knowledge and control that is important right now. 

Anyway back to see how the bidding on the 2200 is going - if not this then something else will come along!!!

Happy Days - One of the Helen's


  Hi Helens,

  In Spanish you are "tocayas",  i.e you have the same
  name. I agree with you both. 

  I have a 2200 and it is a great platform for tinkering
  in the 13" width - IF you ENJOY (as I believe I said
  in my original reply) experimenting with the process. 
  For many of us this experimenting is an important part
  of our learning process - for others it is a
  distraction.  The dollars or pounds "saved" by buying
  a used 2200 vs a new 2400 would in my experience soon
  be erased by the alternative ink sets, paper testing,
  RIP purchase, etc. So the 2400 would be much better
  "out of the box" whilst the 2200 would involve you in
  the process and be a great tool for learning - and in
  the end you would also have some great looking prints.


  In my darkroom days, I learned by and through the
  experimentation process and sometimes some very
  "creative" and pleasing (to me) images came out of my
  not knowing which rules not to break and chance
  "errors". For a similar experience you might be
  interested in the Nick Brandt images and interview in
  the  "Lens Work" issue before last.

  In the digital "light room", I stumbled onto Black
  Only printing myself before coming to this group.
  (Since then I have benefittted greatly from learning 
  how Clayton refined the process through his
  experiments.) If you believe the pop-up from the Epson
  driver - it is "not suitable for photographic
  printing."


  I hope to soon purchase an 2400 or X800 series and
  given my personality I probably won't be able to leave
  those alone either - although by all accounts they are
  very good if not excellent "out of the box."

  All this to say - what really matters is what really
  matters for YOU!

  All the best,

  Michael


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

This is interesting.  Read the book Art and Fear, by Bales and Orland.  It 
is a good commentary on the process of developing one's art.  It's on Amazon 
for around $10, and I found it worth the read.

Frank Vincent

>
>The best way to avoid "(often ignorant) comments " is never to show
>your pictures to anyone - a big mistake.  If you show your work and
>get comments, you will always run the risk of getting poor advice,
>whether you get it from club judges or professional photographers.
>Take all commentary and advice with a grain of salt, but consider it
>carefully because you can learn from it.  Even comments from
>non-photographers is valuable, telling you at least someone's reaction
>to your work.
>
>Even knowing that sometimes my work will be judged by someone who is
>not fully expert, and with whom my opinions may differ, I count my
>participation in camera clubs, including competitions, as the most
>valuable single way I have developed as a photographer. This is true
>for many others.