Digital BW, The Print

Time to stock up on MIS carts and CIS before it's too late ?

http://www.pcworld.com/news/article/0,aid,124814,00.asp#

Cheers,
André

Or maybe we should begin thinking about moving away
from Epson (wouldn't want to use the term boycott),
but Epson is the thousand pound gorilla in the
industry and it thinks it will get away with
intimidating third party vendors.

 This quote is from an earlier PC World article - "The
lawsuits are not an effort to stamp out the
third-party cartridge market and are aimed only at
companies that have infringed Epson's patents, says
Alastair Bourne, a spokesperson for Seiko Epson in
Tokyo." If you believe that ...

Even though I have historically used Epson printers
exclusively they are making hard for me not to look at
their competitors with this practice.


"Lots of companies make ink cartridges [for Epson
printers.] If it's fair competition we have no
complaints."

--- Andre <am1000@...> wrote:

> Time to stock up on MIS carts and CIS before it's
> too late ?
> 
>
http://www.pcworld.com/news/article/0,aid,124814,00.asp#
> 
> Cheers,
> Andr\ufffd
> 
> 
> 
> 


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com

.. because a company is protecting its intellectual property?
Coming up with a cartridge that does not require a valve in the print head
is useful and non-obvious.  If they have a patent on it, they should be
protected for the term and scope of the patent; simple enough
 and the
courts will decide for those choosing not to settle.

Best regards,
John Moody

-----Original Message-----
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of jeffrey
sutton
Sent: Friday, February 24, 2006 9:11 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Epson files lawsuits against cartridge resellers

<snip>
Even though I have historically used Epson printers
exclusively they are making hard for me not to look at
their competitors with this practice.




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, jeffrey sutton 
<jeffdsutton@...> wrote:
>
> Or maybe we should begin thinking about moving away
> from Epson (wouldn't want to use the term boycott),
> but Epson is the thousand pound gorilla in the
> industry and it thinks it will get away with
> intimidating third party vendors.
> 
>  This quote is from an earlier PC World article - "The
> lawsuits are not an effort to stamp out the
> third-party cartridge market and are aimed only at
> companies that have infringed Epson's patents, says
> Alastair Bourne, a spokesperson for Seiko Epson in
> Tokyo." If you believe that ...
> 
> Even though I have historically used Epson printers
> exclusively they are making hard for me not to look at
> their competitors with this practice.
> 
> 
> "Lots of companies make ink cartridges [for Epson
> printers.] If it's fair competition we have no
> complaints."
> 


Keep in mind, HP did the exact same thing a couple of years ago. Same 
exact reasons, someone violated their patents. And now that they are 
binging pigment printers to market, I might actually have to consider 
one when HP makes them larger format (only a matter of time).

If you want to use a bulk ink in an Epson printer, there will always 
be choices. One of those is the CIS from Ink Republic. I sent them an 
email about a different topic, and also asked them about this new 
Epson lawsuit.They said that since them were granted a patent for 
their system, they should be safe. And that so far they have not 
received anything from Epson that would indicate there is going to be 
a problem. I'm not trying to advertise for them, just giving you one 
of the options. I'm sure that there will be other cart designs that 
will eventually be created to avoid a patent conflict, since as you 
know, there is MONEY involved with these after market items. And big 
money at that.

> Or maybe we should begin thinking about moving away
> from Epson 

To what platform?  The reason we use Epson is that they are the only ones
that can pump the higher viscosity inks needed to hold the pigments in
suspension.  Their patent on that head gives them market power in this
market.  If there were alternatives to the printers, their actions in the
cart market would be self-defeating.

>(wouldn't want to use the term boycott),

I believe consumer boycotts are not illegal.  

> but Epson is the thousand pound gorilla in the
> industry ...

Exactly.  They have what is called "market power."  That is one of the
elements of an illegal tie and other related causes of action.  The market
definition has to be limited to pure pigment (no dye) desktop inkjet
printers for this to hold.  

>  This quote is from an earlier PC World article - "The
> lawsuits are not an effort to stamp out the
> third-party cartridge market

This is just a self-serving statement by them.  The actions are what we need
to keep an eye on.

Also, their target is not third party cart makers.  It's the third party ink
sellers.

> and are aimed only at
> companies that have infringed Epson's patents, ...

That raises the question of what, if any, cartridge companies are not
targets. 

If there are patents that are being violated, why not sue those companies?
What's with the petition to the International Trade Commission?
 
> ... because a company is protecting its intellectual property?
> ...  If they have a patent on it, they should be
> protected for the term and scope of the patent; simple enough. and the
> courts will decide for those choosing not to settle.

I'm most interested in what they are trying to get the ITC to do.  I think
we have an interest to be sure the US government doesn't get suckered into
helping Epson suppress competition in this country.  We might actually be
able to stop that.

Along those lines, does anyone know where we can get copies of the EU
finding that the chips were an illegal tie?  (I think the EU found that.)

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

http://edisweb.usitc.gov/edismirror/337-2471/Violation/248085/276315/3e5/6f8
e95.pdf

 

This is the ITC petition.

 

Paul

www.PaulRoark.com <http://www.paulroark.com/>  

 

 

 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Don't you think people will find a way to refill the original Epson
carts with whatever you want? They already do with the 10K. It isn't
easy but it can be done. I guess resetting the chip would be essential
and I don't know if they can stop that. Save your empty carts.
john




--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, jeffrey sutton
<jeffdsutton@...> wrote:

>
> Or maybe we should begin thinking about moving away
> from Epson (wouldn't want to use the term boycott),
> but Epson is the thousand pound gorilla in the
> industry and it thinks it will get away with
> intimidating third party vendors.
> 
>  This quote is from an earlier PC World article - "The
> lawsuits are not an effort to stamp out the
> third-party cartridge market and are aimed only at
> companies that have infringed Epson's patents, says
> Alastair Bourne, a spokesperson for Seiko Epson in
> Tokyo." If you believe that ...
> 
> Even though I have historically used Epson printers
> exclusively they are making hard for me not to look at
> their competitors with this practice.
> 
> 
> "Lots of companies make ink cartridges [for Epson
> printers.] If it's fair competition we have no
> complaints."
> 
> --- Andre <am1000@...> wrote:
> 
> > Time to stock up on MIS carts and CIS before it's
> > too late ?
> > 
> >
> http://www.pcworld.com/news/article/0,aid,124814,00.asp#
> > 
> > Cheers,
> > André
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> 
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "john dean" 
<deanwork2003@...> wrote:
>
> Save your empty carts.


That deserves repeating. There must be a method to refill these Epson 
carts. I haven't taken the cover of any of the spongeless models yet, 
but they get filled in the factory, there must be a way for others to 
fill them!

> but Epson is the thousand pound gorilla in the
> industry ...

But not yet as big as HP in printers.

Bob Frost.

> 
> > but Epson is the thousand pound gorilla in the industry ...
> 
> But not yet as big as HP in printers.

The first thing you look at is the definition of the "relevant market."
Here, I think the relevant market is desktop pigment inkjet printers.  Epson
has 100% of this market.  There is no other printer that can handle the pure
pigment inks we use.

> The named parties begin on page 3 of the PDF in Paul's post. I was
> going to print it, but it's 158 pages long and I don't know if I can
> handle that much legal speak...
> 
> If there's a lawyer in the house, would you mind looking at this
> document? That way we can get the real lowdown on this lawsuit.

And, they've left the window open for naming more parties.

19 U.S.C. 1337(a)(3) requires that Epson have significant U.S. operations.
That is the point of the Oregon and El Paso (gosh, wonder why there is a
Texas presence) plants.  The details of these operations were in
confidential exhibits.  This is one attack point.  

I've sent an initial e-mail to the ITC regarding what I see as an attempt by
Epson to have the ITC assist it in suppressing competition.  I'll keep this
group posted.  I'm doing this on my own as a consumer and not as counsel for
anyone.  Keep in mind that Epson monitors this group and the B&W market is a
specific target of their actions.  They learn from us here, then they try to
wipe out the competition -- business as usual.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark"
<paul.roark@...> wrote:
>

> Here, I think the relevant market is desktop pigment inkjet
printers.  Epson
> has 100% of this market.  There is no other printer that can handle
the pure
> pigment inks we use.
> 
Paul,

Would these new Canon printers come into direct competition with Epson
in the pigmented ink printer market ? 

http://www.dpreview.com/news/0602/06022406canonpro9000.asp

Cheers,
André

Paul:  Having looked you up in Martindale, I now understand your knowledgeable posts about the ITC proceeding.  Jim

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Paul Roark 
  To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Friday, February 24, 2006 1:27 PM
  Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Epson files lawsuits against cartridge resellers


  > 
  > > but Epson is the thousand pound gorilla in the industry ...
  > 
  > But not yet as big as HP in printers.

  The first thing you look at is the definition of the "relevant market."
  Here, I think the relevant market is desktop pigment inkjet printers.  Epson
  has 100% of this market.  There is no other printer that can handle the pure
  pigment inks we use.

  > The named parties begin on page 3 of the PDF in Paul's post. I was
  > going to print it, but it's 158 pages long and I don't know if I can
  > handle that much legal speak...
  > 
  > If there's a lawyer in the house, would you mind looking at this
  > document? That way we can get the real lowdown on this lawsuit.

  And, they've left the window open for naming more parties.

  19 U.S.C. 1337(a)(3) requires that Epson have significant U.S. operations.
  That is the point of the Oregon and El Paso (gosh, wonder why there is a
  Texas presence) plants.  The details of these operations were in
  confidential exhibits.  This is one attack point.  

  I've sent an initial e-mail to the ITC regarding what I see as an attempt by
  Epson to have the ITC assist it in suppressing competition.  I'll keep this
  group posted.  I'm doing this on my own as a consumer and not as counsel for
  anyone.  Keep in mind that Epson monitors this group and the B&W market is a
  specific target of their actions.  They learn from us here, then they try to
  wipe out the competition -- business as usual.

  Paul
  www.PaulRoark.com 




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

In my experience, "congressional correspondence" gets priority attention in
governmental agencies.  If a consumer letter is direct to an agency, it's
one of thousands.  If it is referred by a senator or representative, it's a
whole different ballgame.

Letter writing (not just e-mails) can matter.

This is how you find the addresses to write to:
http://www.senate.gov/general/contact_information/senators_cfm.cfm



Be clear that our interests are at issue here.  After naming the parties,
the first thing the complaint states is the "Products-at-Issue."  The first
paragraph reads: "The Products-at-Issue are replaceable ink cartridges used
to supply ink to Epson inkjet printers for both black-and-white and
full-color printing."

Even if you use Epson inks, those prices and the progress of the B&W
printing market have been affected by healthy competition from third party
ink sellers.  Suppressing competition from these ink sellers will damage the
entire market and benefit only Epson.

Epson has 100% of the desktop pigment inkjet printer market.  It is
attempting to convince the U.S. government to use your tax money to give it
a similar monopoly in the inks that supply these printers. 

Write (not e-mail) your representatives. 

Reference the Complaint of Epson Portland, et al., February 17, 2006, filed
with International Trade Commission  "In the Matter of Certain Ink
Cartridges and Components Thereof," Investigation No 337-TA- ____ .

Your letters can make the difference.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

The short answer Andre is Yes. they have two new printers in the series the "9000" advanced Dye Printer ( 12 colours ) and the "9500" Pigment printer ( 10 colours ).
   
  John_e

Andre <am1000@...> wrote:
  --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark"
<paul.roark@...> wrote:
>

> Here, I think the relevant market is desktop pigment inkjet
printers.  Epson
> has 100% of this market.  There is no other printer that can handle
the pure
> pigment inks we use.
> 
Paul,

Would these new Canon printers come into direct competition with Epson
in the pigmented ink printer market ? 

http://www.dpreview.com/news/0602/06022406canonpro9000.asp

Cheers,
André






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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark"
> <paul.roark@...> wrote:
 
> > I think the relevant market is desktop pigment inkjet printers.  
> > Epson has 100% of this market.  There is no other printer 
> > that can handle the pure pigment inks we use.
> >

André wrote:

> 
> Would these new Canon printers come into direct competition with Epson
> in the pigmented ink printer market ?
> 
> http://www.dpreview.com/news/0602/06022406canonpro9000.asp
 
Short answer:

I sure hope so, but there are a lot of unknowns with them.  Are the inks
pure carbon?  Any dyes?  Are the pigment particles so small they'll fade
like dyes?  Can these printers pump the high viscosity inks needed to keep
the best pigments in suspension?  What are the prices of the printers?  Will
Canon also try to monopolize its after market ink sales?  What about the C86
and R220 entry level markets?  Etc.

Long answer:

I don't think societies can or do allow anti-competitive, monopolistic
practices based on the hope that some future competition will cure the
problems.  (Judge Bork, in his landmark book on the subject, expressed the
view that the antitrust laws that deal with these problems are justified
because they can speed the movement to competitive markets and reduce the
costs of getting there.)  

Competition in price and quality is great -- the best way to organize an
economy that we know of.  However, healthy competition and anarchy are not
the same.  We don't allow the large organizations to arbitrarily kill the
small ones.  Chicago in the 1930's is not the type of society we want.
Every game, sport, and society has rules.  Stopping "anti-competitive" and
"unfair" trade practices that damage competition and consumer welfare are
among those modern western societies have evolved.

Of course, the worst possible combination would be the U.S. government
assisting a large competitor to suppress competition.   But, it can happen,
especially if there is an asymmetry of information that distorts the
decision making process. 

That's why my focus is on the International Trade Commission and Epson's
petition, which is aimed at convincing that agency to stop importation and
sale of competing products.

The decision makers will make the best decision they can, but they need to
hear all sides of the issue.  Letters and other actions can avoid an issue
getting under the radar.  

So, what we can do is make enough noise to focus attention on a potential
problem that needs detailed analysis.  We can also provide information.  Our
system works best when those with an interest and knowledge express
themselves.


Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Of course, the worst possible combination would be the U.S. government
assisting a large competitor to suppress competition.   But, it can
happen,
especially if there is an asymmetry of information that distorts the
decision making process.


------------

I agree. There is no guarantee another monopoly wouldn't come along (
Canon) and start it all over again. However, they would be up against
the same market pressures as Epson.

One thing we could do is get our empty carts and chip resetters from
China. Now you tell me how they are going to stop that? The third part
inks are totally legal. I'm not sure all the bad press is going to
help them with this one. Photographers are a very cranky lot.

John

Paul Roark wrote:

>
>
>Along those lines, does anyone know where we can get copies of the EU
>finding that the chips were an illegal tie?  (I think the EU found that.)
>
>  
>
Here's a start:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2002/12/30/eu_tells_hp_et_al/

http://www.inkjetmall.com/store/info/pdf/ink-pricing.pdf


Keith

 
Keith Krebs

"Just some guy," caretaker of the Multiverse's largest EPSON printer 
User Community (highly recommended by Vogon Poets and MegaDodo 
Publications), at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EPSON_Printers/
and  the Multiverse's largest Canon printer User  Community at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Canon-printers
"For the rest of you out there, the secret is to bang the rocks together 
guys"

 

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "john dean"
<deanwork2003@...> wrote:
>
> 
> I agree. There is no guarantee another monopoly wouldn't come along (
> Canon) and start it all over again. However, they would be up against
> the same market pressures as Epson.
> 

Now there seems to be a third player in the pigment ink printer
segment  of the market. HP has also announced a new printer said
(according to them) to use pigment inks.

HP Photosmart Pro B9180 Photo Printer (A3+ size)

 • New 8-color HP Vivera pigment inks produce gallery-quality photos
and offer users excellent image quality, durability and performance on
a broad array of media

• Exceptional durability – Waterproof photos (1) that resist fading
for more than 200 

http://www.photo-i.co.uk/News/Feb06/HP%20B9180.htm

Cheers,
André

"New 8-color HP Vivera pigment inks produce gallery-quality photos and offer users excellent image quality, durability and performance on a broad array of media."
   
  The broad array of media will be something of a first for HP.  Maybe it's gonna get better quickly.
   
  Tom Baker
  

Andre <am1000@...> wrote:
  --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "john dean"
<deanwork2003@...> wrote:
>
> 
> I agree. There is no guarantee another monopoly wouldn't come along (
> Canon) and start it all over again. However, they would be up against
> the same market pressures as Epson.
> 

Now there seems to be a third player in the pigment ink printer
segment  of the market. HP has also announced a new printer said
(according to them) to use pigment inks.

HP Photosmart Pro B9180 Photo Printer (A3+ size)

• New 8-color HP Vivera pigment inks produce gallery-quality photos
and offer users excellent image quality, durability and performance on
a broad array of media

• Exceptional durability – Waterproof photos (1) that resist fading
for more than 200 

http://www.photo-i.co.uk/News/Feb06/HP%20B9180.htm

Cheers,
André





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BY PARTICIPATING IN AND/OR POSTING MESSAGES TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO! GROUP YOU EXPRESSLY UNDERSTAND AND AGREE THAT THE “OWNER” AND “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP SHALL NOT BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF PROFITS, GOODWILL, USE, DATA OR OTHER INTANGIBLE LOSSES (EVEN IF THE  “OWNER” AND “MODERATORS” OF DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP HAVE BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES), RESULTING FROM: (i) THE USE OR THE INABILITY TO USE THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; (ii) UNAUTHORIZED ACCESS TO OR ALTERATION OF YOUR TRANSMISSIONS OR DATA; (iii) STATEMENTS OR CONDUCT OF ANY THIRD PARTY ON THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP; OR (iv) ANY OTHER MATTER RELATING TO THE DIGITAL BW, THE PRINT YAHOO GROUP.




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---------------------------------
  

  



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Andre wrote:
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "john dean"
> <deanwork2003@...> wrote:
>>
>> I agree. There is no guarantee another monopoly wouldn't come along (
>> Canon) and start it all over again. However, they would be up against
>> the same market pressures as Epson.
>>
> 
> Now there seems to be a third player in the pigment ink printer
> segment  of the market. HP has also announced a new printer said
> (according to them) to use pigment inks.


This sounds really good. Three to compete. All three allow 1.5 
mm thick media (Canon Pixma IPF5000 not the 9000). Wilhelm test.

Not the right time for Epson to start barking up the wrong 
tree (third party chips) when real competition moves in. Next 
ones will be Dell and Lexmark.


Ernst

                    --
           Ernst Dinkla


www.pigment-print.com
(         unvollendet         )

A 13"x19" pigment print on any media in 1.5 minutes with a fade
rating twice that of Ultrachrome? That's a very interesting
development.Don't make us mad Epson.


john

 > 
> > Now there seems to be a third player in the pigment ink printer
> > segment  of the market. HP has also announced a new printer said
> > (according to them) to use pigment inks.
>

> > Now there seems to be a third player in the pigment ink printer
> > segment  of the market. HP has also announced a new printer said
> > (according to them) to use pigment inks.
 
> This sounds really good. Three to compete. All three allow 1.5
> mm thick media (Canon Pixma IPF5000 not the 9000). Wilhelm test.
> 
> Not the right time for Epson to start barking up the wrong
> tree (third party chips) when real competition moves in. Next
> ones will be Dell and Lexmark.
> 

Of course, what is good for the goose is good for the gander.  They all try
to monopolize the aftermarket inks sales for their printers.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Paul:

Thank you SO much!  You have inspired me to get off my lazy lurking 
bottom and DO something.  Thanks for making it is easy.  A LOT is at 
stake here!

Jack Winberg

At 08:32 AM 2/25/2006, you wrote:
>From: "Paul Roark" <paul.roark@...>
>Subject: RE: Epson files lawsuits against cartridge resellers
>
>In my experience, "congressional correspondence" gets priority attention in
>governmental agencies.  If a consumer letter is direct to an agency, it's
>one of thousands.  If it is referred by a senator or representative, it's a
>whole different ballgame.
>
>Letter writing (not just e-mails) can matter.
>
>This is how you find the addresses to write to:
>http://www.senate.gov/general/contact_information/senators_cfm.cfm
>
>Be clear that our interests are at issue here.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Paul, or someone else,

can you outline the points to be raised when writing to one's representative and senators?

thanks,
Ed

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Jack Winberg <jack.winberg@...> 
wrote:

>
> Paul:
> 
> Thank you SO much!  You have inspired me to get off my lazy lurking 
> bottom and DO something.  Thanks for making it is easy.  A LOT is at 
> stake here!
> 
> Jack Winberg
> 
> At 08:32 AM 2/25/2006, you wrote:
> >From: "Paul Roark" <paul.roark@...>
> >Subject: RE: Epson files lawsuits against cartridge resellers
> >
> >In my experience, "congressional correspondence" gets priority attention in
> >governmental agencies.  If a consumer letter is direct to an agency, it's
> >one of thousands.  If it is referred by a senator or representative, it's a
> >whole different ballgame.
> >
> >Letter writing (not just e-mails) can matter.
> >
> >This is how you find the addresses to write to:
> >http://www.senate.gov/general/contact_information/senators_cfm.cfm
> >
> >Be clear that our interests are at issue here.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "edrudolpho" 
<erudolph@...> wrote:
>
> Paul, or someone else,
> 
> can you outline the points to be raised when writing to one's 
representative and senators?
> 
> thanks,
> Ed
> 


It looks like they are going after some pretty small things, and some 
of those have been implemented in printers from Canon (among others). 
They specifically mention the interior foam in some types of cart, as 
well as the ridges inside the carts. Another is the "O" ring to seal 
the cart to the head, and a couple more things that I need to look 
into. I really need to track down the patents (online) to see what 
they are pointing at (all that was enclosed in the CD rom of 
materials mentioned in the complaint, wish I had this disk). Based on 
the foam used in Canon carts (subject to verification) it really does 
seem like Epson is going after trying to shut the third parties down 
for reasons that should not be allowed. Do you think Canon would 
license the foam block inside the carts from Epson? I think I still 
have some real official Canon carts at work that I can dissect for 
proof. I might still have a Lexmark OEM cart to use for the same. 
I'll look into that on Monday.

Hopefully someone will come up with a much more consise description 
of items to list, and maybe some general purpose statement to make. I 
look at some of the things that they received a patent for and really 
start to question how they could have received it for such a common 
place usage. Using an "O" ring to seal something (anything) is not 
innovation, it's been done for many, many years.

On another note, I now have a cart from an Epson C86/cx6600 to 
dissect. There must be a way to refill these! And I plan to find out.

There may be another and bigger Gorilla in the pigment printer  
market.  I am referring to Canon.

I was just on Canon's website looking at their new 10 ink PIXMA  
pigment printers. Their entry into the printer market was a logical  
step give their dominant position in the digital camera market and  
especially at the pro level.  I am not a pro but I understand that  
Canon's rise in the camera market was their unwavering support of the  
professional photographer.  I would image they will take the same  
approach in the printer market.

Given Epson's attitude, the replacement for my 2200 when the time  
comes may well be the Canon and not a 2400.

Given time and competition from Canon and HP, Epson my be left  
holding the bag.  What goes around comes around.

David

Greg,

Are they like these ? (for the 2100/2200/1800/2400/etc)

http://www.digital4to.com/

The 'Anatomy', 'Rheology', and 'Repletion' sections give the full details of 
the construction, problems, and refilling techiques.

Bob Frost.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Greg" <dfaprinting@...>

On another note, I now have a cart from an Epson C86/cx6600 to
dissect. There must be a way to refill these! And I plan to find out.

Canon's pigment printer is still awaiting birth, I believe! It may one day 
grow to be a big Gorilla (like some of Canon's other offspring), but at 
present Canon only has a tiny part of the inkjet market, AFAIK. But as the 
ads say - 'Canon Can'.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "David M. Dorn" <dmdorn_ct_usa@...>


There may be another and bigger Gorilla in the pigment printer
market.  I am referring to Canon.

Paul,

What about a bunch of us "experts" and "consumer advocates" filing an 
amicus brief? I'm sure a number of players would be more than willing to 
lend their names...

-- 
Keith

 
Keith Krebs

"Just some guy," caretaker of the Multiverse's largest EPSON printer 
User Community (highly recommended by Vogon Poets and MegaDodo 
Publications), at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EPSON_Printers/
and  the Multiverse's largest Canon printer User  Community at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Canon-printers
"For the rest of you out there, the secret is to bang the rocks together 
guys"

 

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> It looks like they are going after some pretty small things, ...

And they've left the door open to naming more parties.

> ... I
> look at some of the things that they received a patent for and really
> start to question how they could have received it for such a common
> place usage. Using an "O" ring to seal something (anything) is not
> innovation, it's been done for many, many years.

Yes, but the substance of the patent claims can't be decided by the ITC in
the context of their summarily excluding broad classes of competitive
products.  One of the problems here is that the legal and policy issues
presented are extremely complex.  The ITC in the context of what it does
with this Epson petition is not the place to decide them.  


It may not seem like it, but we're dealing here with issues at the interface
between intellectual property and competition policy.  The net effects on
competition, innovation and consumer welfare are at the cutting edge of
these fields.  Even issues of international trade the relations between the
US and EU are raised.  These are really knarly issues that the ITC will
probably not touch if it knows what it's getting into.

Demonstrating what it is about to get into is what I'm doing. 

 
> On another note, I now have a cart from an Epson C86/cx6600 to
> dissect. There must be a way to refill these! And I plan to find out.

I'm also thinking of ways to circumvent the restrictions just in case Epson
succeeds.  

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Not to make an important point glibly, but as I recall it (over the 
years), you've consistently defended EPSON's  (razor/blade) sales model: 
"illegal tying" included.

So, IMHO, your supposed defense of  intellectual property here seems 
more incidental, fortuitous, and even chimeric than genuine.

While you are sober and even-handed on other points, your handling of 
and analysis of issues relating to issues relating to EPSON in my memory 
seem to come down always on the side of EPSON, particularly when it 
relates to allowing them to choose any business model they please or 
their responsibilities to consumers.

That makes your current defense of "intellectual property" seem more 
than a tad suspect, and perhaps, less grounded in principle than legal 
and marketplace rationality.  Unless we are going to accept complete 
laissez faire marketplace as a viable option -- As an aside: given 
modern corporate market power, only a complete ignoramus could believe a 
laissez faire system is even distantly viable. So, I DO NOT think you, 
or any serious reader, REALLY believes in that (except perhaps in some 
theoretical utopian �riginal position" dreamworld)...

Bob Frost wrote:

>Greg,
>
>Are they like these ? (for the 2100/2200/1800/2400/etc)
>
>http://www.digital4to.com/
>
>The 'Anatomy', 'Rheology', and 'Repletion' sections give the full details of 
>the construction, problems, and refilling techiques.
>
>Bob Frost.
>




-- 
Keith

 
Keith Krebs

"Just some guy," caretaker of the Multiverse's largest EPSON printer 
User Community (highly recommended by Vogon Poets and MegaDodo 
Publications), at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EPSON_Printers/
and  the Multiverse's largest Canon printer User  Community at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Canon-printers
"For the rest of you out there, the secret is to bang the rocks together 
guys"

 

****************************************************************
CONFIDENTIALITY & COPYRIGHT NOTICE:
This e-mail message, including attachments and contents, is � Copyright, 
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sole use of the intended recipient and may contain confidential and 
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author, any unauthorized review, use, disclosure, transfer, or 
distribution is explicitly prohibited and taken at your own risk. If you 
are not, or are unsure whether you are, the intended recipient, please 
contact the sender immediately and destroy all copies of the original 
message. Violations will be prosecuted to the FULL extent allowed under 
applicable civil and criminal law. Imagery published or distributed in 
violation of these conditions shall be subject to a $1500/image 
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Let's see if a well known group, person, or governmental agency will carry
the water for us.  I'm pursuing it.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Editor,
> P.O.V. Image Service
> Sent: Saturday, February 25, 2006 12:22 PM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: Epson files lawsuits against cartridge
> resellers
> 
> Paul,
> 
> What about a bunch of us "experts" and "consumer advocates" filing an
> amicus brief? I'm sure a number of players would be more than willing to
> lend their names...
> 
> --
> Keith
> 
> 
> Keith Krebs
> 
> "Just some guy," caretaker of the Multiverse's largest EPSON printer
> User Community (highly recommended by Vogon Poets and MegaDodo
> Publications), at:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EPSON_Printers/
> and  the Multiverse's largest Canon printer User  Community at:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Canon-printers
> "For the rest of you out there, the secret is to bang the rocks together
> guys"
> 
> 
> 
> ****************************************************************
> CONFIDENTIALITY & COPYRIGHT NOTICE:
> This e-mail message, including attachments and contents, is C Copyright,
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> sole use of the intended recipient and may contain confidential and
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> contact the sender immediately and destroy all copies of the original
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> violation of these conditions shall be subject to a $1500/image
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> violation penalties.
> 
> POV IMage Service Banner
> ****************************************************************
> { The P.O.V. Image Service Website is still at http://www.p-o-v-image.com/
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> 
> 
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Keith,

Fair comment, but I think you replied to the wrong email I sent! The one you 
replied to referred to the details of how to refill the trickier Epson 
carts! Not exactly supporting Epson there was I?

Bob Frost.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Editor, P.O.V. Image Service" <editor@...>


Not to make an important point glibly, but as I recall it (over the
years), you've consistently defended EPSON's  (razor/blade) sales model:
"illegal tying" included.

So, IMHO, your supposed defense of  intellectual property here seems
more incidental, fortuitous, and even chimeric than genuine.

While you are sober and even-handed on other points, your handling of
and analysis of issues relating to issues relating to EPSON in my memory
seem to come down always on the side of EPSON, particularly when it
relates to allowing them to choose any business model they please or
their responsibilities to consumers.

That makes your current defense of "intellectual property" seem more
than a tad suspect, and perhaps, less grounded in principle than legal
and marketplace rationality.  Unless we are going to accept complete
laissez faire marketplace as a viable option -- As an aside: given
modern corporate market power, only a complete ignoramus could believe a
laissez faire system is even distantly viable. So, I DO NOT think you,
or any serious reader, REALLY believes in that (except perhaps in some
theoretical utopian \ufffdriginal position" dreamworld)...

Bob Frost wrote:

>Greg,
>
>Are they like these ? (for the 2100/2200/1800/2400/etc)
>
>http://www.digital4to.com/
>
>The 'Anatomy', 'Rheology', and 'Repletion' sections give the full details 
>of
>the construction, problems, and refilling techiques.
>
>Bob Frost.

Bob Frost wrote:

>Keith,
>
>Fair comment, but I think you replied to the wrong email I sent! The one you 
>replied to referred to the details of how to refill the trickier Epson 
>carts! Not exactly supporting Epson there was I?
>
>  
>
Touch�!  ;-)

Keith


-- 
Keith

 
Keith Krebs

"Just some guy," caretaker of the Multiverse's largest EPSON printer 
User Community (highly recommended by Vogon Poets and MegaDodo 
Publications), at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EPSON_Printers/
and  the Multiverse's largest Canon printer User  Community at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Canon-printers
"For the rest of you out there, the secret is to bang the rocks together 
guys"

 

****************************************************************
CONFIDENTIALITY & COPYRIGHT NOTICE:
This e-mail message, including attachments and contents, is � Copyright, 
Keith Krebs, 2001-2004, All Rights Reserved. It is expressly for the 
sole use of the intended recipient and may contain confidential and 
privileged information. Absent the express written authorization of the 
author, any unauthorized review, use, disclosure, transfer, or 
distribution is explicitly prohibited and taken at your own risk. If you 
are not, or are unsure whether you are, the intended recipient, please 
contact the sender immediately and destroy all copies of the original 
message. Violations will be prosecuted to the FULL extent allowed under 
applicable civil and criminal law. Imagery published or distributed in 
violation of these conditions shall be subject to a $1500/image 
liquidated damages charge, in addition to any applicable Copyright 
violation penalties.

POV IMage Service Banner
****************************************************************
{ The P.O.V. Image Service Website is still at http://www.p-o-v-image.com/ }





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Frost" 
<bob@...> wrote:
>
> Greg,
> 
> Are they like these ? (for the 2100/2200/1800/2400/etc)
> 
> http://www.digital4to.com/
> 
> The 'Anatomy', 'Rheology', and 'Repletion' sections give the full 
details of 
> the construction, problems, and refilling techiques.
> 
> Bob Frost.


Similar but slightly different. Whoever built those pages spent a 
bunch of time on those carts.

Interesting and timely tidbit from Yahoo news:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/pcworld/20060225/tc_pcworld/124826

Paul Roark wrote:

>>
>>
>>Along those lines, does anyone know where we can get copies of the EU 
>>finding that the chips were an illegal tie?  (I think the EU found 
>>that.)

Keith Krebs added:

>>Here's a start:

>>http://www.theregister.co.uk/2002/12/30/eu_tells_hp_et_al/

>>http://www.inkjetmall.com/store/info/pdf/ink-pricing.pdf

The EU legislation to which these pages refer is Directive 2002/96/EC
on waste electrical and electronic equipment (WEEE), which you can
find here:
http://europa.eu.int/eur-lex/en/consleg/pdf/2002/en_2002L0096_do_001.pdf

The relevant text is probably article 4 which reads as follows:

"Member States shall encourage the design and production of electrical
and electronic equipment which take into account and facilitate
dismantling and recovery, in particular the reuse and recycling of
WEEE, their components and materials. In this context, Member States
shall take appropriate measures so that producers do not prevent,
through specific design features or manufacturing processes, WEEE from
being reused, unless such specific design features or manufacturing
processes present overriding advantages, for example, with regard to
the protection of the environment and/or safety requirements."

The Directive is not aimed at protecting the consumer or fair market
operation, but at protecting the environment. Whether this can be
interpreted in such a way so as to prevent the manufacturer from
trying to stop third party inks from entering the market is a
completely different issue.

I will look into EU decisions and case law and report if I find
anything of  interest, although competition law is not exactly my field.

Jorge Castanyer

jorgecastanyer wrote:
> Paul Roark wrote:
> 
>>>
>>> Along those lines, does anyone know where we can get copies of the EU 
>>> finding that the chips were an illegal tie?  (I think the EU found 
>>> that.)
> 
> Keith Krebs added:
> 
>>> Here's a start:
> 
>>> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2002/12/30/eu_tells_hp_et_al/
> 
>>> http://www.inkjetmall.com/store/info/pdf/ink-pricing.pdf
> 
> The EU legislation to which these pages refer is Directive 2002/96/EC
> on waste electrical and electronic equipment (WEEE), which you can
> find here:
> http://europa.eu.int/eur-lex/en/consleg/pdf/2002/en_2002L0096_do_001.pdf
> 
> The relevant text is probably article 4 which reads as follows:
> 
> "Member States shall encourage the design and production of electrical
> and electronic equipment which take into account and facilitate
> dismantling and recovery, in particular the reuse and recycling of
> WEEE, their components and materials. In this context, Member States
> shall take appropriate measures so that producers do not prevent,
> through specific design features or manufacturing processes, WEEE from
> being reused, unless such specific design features or manufacturing
> processes present overriding advantages, for example, with regard to
> the protection of the environment and/or safety requirements."
> 
> The Directive is not aimed at protecting the consumer or fair market
> operation, but at protecting the environment. Whether this can be
> interpreted in such a way so as to prevent the manufacturer from
> trying to stop third party inks from entering the market is a
> completely different issue.
> 
> I will look into EU decisions and case law and report if I find
> anything of  interest, although competition law is not exactly my field.
> 
> Jorge Castanyer

Yes, there's a far too positive view on the other side of the 
pond on the EC resolutions. If the chip design delivers 
advantages in printer use, maintenance etc and the protection 
is not too obvious the main reason then I have to see what 
actually happens when Epson starts the same actions here. 
Epson, Canon etc still sell their chipped carts here. It takes 
an extra step in resetting the Epson chip to make the carts 
usable again after refilling and I have not seen any EC action 
to change that. Canon's chips are not even hacked if I 
understand it correctly.

Another note: both printers and inks are usually more 
expensive here than in the USA. Don't ask me what caused that, 
it can't be the market, we have more people here.

                    --
           Ernst Dinkla


www.pigment-print.com
(         unvollendet         )