Digital BW, The Print

I'm currently employed by a (US) federal agency, and I want to 
confirm that what Paul says is true (the individual does not get 
ignored, but responses to members of congress on short response 
deadlines and are carefully tracked)

-matt

In my experience, "congressional correspondence" gets priority attention
in government agencies.  If a consumer letter is direct to an agency,
it's one of thousands.  If it is referred by a senator or representative, it's
a whole different ballgame.

--
Matt Haber
dance, portrait and fashion photography
http://www.matthaber.com

I'll tell you one thing. If they make it in anyway difficult for me to
use my K6 Piezo Tone in any Epson printer I'll jump to Canon in a NY
minute, and, I won't come back. Thank goodness I still have a couple
of printers that have no chips in them. I'll fill them with whatever I
want, whenever I want, for as long as I can.

john




--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Matt Haber"
<matt@...> wrote:
>
> I'm currently employed by a (US) federal agency, and I want to 
> confirm that what Paul says is true (the individual does not get 
> ignored, but responses to members of congress on short response 
> deadlines and are carefully tracked)
> 
> -matt
> 
> In my experience, "congressional correspondence" gets priority attention
> in government agencies.  If a consumer letter is direct to an agency,
> it's one of thousands.  If it is referred by a senator or
representative, it's

> a whole different ballgame.
> 
> --
> Matt Haber
> dance, portrait and fashion photography
> http://www.matthaber.com
>

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "john dean" 
<deanwork2003@...> wrote:
>
> I'll tell you one thing. If they make it in anyway difficult for me 
to
> use my K6 Piezo Tone in any Epson printer I'll jump to Canon in a NY
> minute, and, I won't come back. Thank goodness I still have a couple
> of printers that have no chips in them. I'll fill them with 
whatever I
> want, whenever I want, for as long as I can.
> 
> john
> 


In short, there will be ways to get around this with the large format 
machines. Just need to get the right people working on it.

> ... there will be ways to get around this with the large format
> machines. Just need to get the right people working on it.

Yes, there are always ways around things, but they may be expensive and
limit the market.  I suspect I'll be able to find ink for my 7500 for some
time.

However, there are lots of different interests here.  One might be the
competitive position of professional printing service bureaus.  There is
probably a significant market for large prints to be made from files
provided by consumers or professional photographers who only have desktop
printers.  Epson seems to think so and is entering this market, including
for B&W printing, according to an Epson representative I spoke with last
week.

The plan is to have people be able to print at home and just e-mail the file
to Epson for printing larger versions.

I suspect that what inks those consumers use on their Epson desktop machines
might be relevant to what they have used to make the larger prints.

If they use only the OEM inkset on the desktop, they will probably be more
likely to go to Epson for the large format printing. 

If there is a large thriving dedicated B&W market at the desktop level,
those people may want to stick with a dedicated B&W system.  They will know
from experience how good the dedicated B&W can be.  I personally think our
dedicated B&W inksets are simply better.

The third party inks and their lower costs at both the desktop and large
format levels might significantly enlarge this B&W market and the
competitive opportunities. 

Epson control of the market, especially combined with its in-house printing
service, will probably not be good for third party service bureaus or for
the B&W market as a whole.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

One interesting thing about the filing is one of the patents they claim 
(patent '917' as they refer to it) violated is that of the "chip;" 
EXACTLY the part of the cartridge that makes it impossible to use 
third-party inks without using a compatible chip.

Bob, even you have to admit that the chip is not an innovation in any 
sense or intent than in that of  preventing 3rd-party ink sales and 
forcing the use of EPSON consumables.

Keith

 
Keith Krebs

"Just some guy," caretaker of the Multiverse's largest EPSON printer 
User Community (highly recommended by Vogon Poets and MegaDodo 
Publications), at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EPSON_Printers/
and  the Multiverse's largest Canon printer User  Community at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Canon-printers
"For the rest of you out there, the secret is to bang the rocks together 
guys"

 

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I've got a brand new roll of Entrada Fine Art 190 (24x66) and another  
of Epson 24" Enhanced Matte in boxes that I can't use any longer.  
Both are less than 6 months old. I have about $300 in both and will  
sell them for $150 shipped anywhere in the US.

Brian

Just a guess, but I'll bet if one researches, you'll find similar 
lawsuits filed...and lost...by Ford back in the early days of the 
automobile...against oil companies. I may be wrong, but I thought this 
happened, or something similar.

Keith,

> Bob, even you have to admit that the chip is not an innovation in any
> sense or intent than in that of  preventing 3rd-party ink sales and
> forcing the use of EPSON consumables.

"Even you" indeed! Trouble is that I doubt if any of us know what was in the 
mind of the person who had the idea of storing some info on a chip on the 
cart. Maybe it was as you suggest; maybe it wasn't. Maybe he/her thought 
they could 'kill two birds with one stone'.

From what little I know about the functioning of the chip and printer (from 
reading service manuals etc),  the chip does do several useful things - such 
as:-

- storing the ink usage of that particular cart, so that you can swap carts 
and still have the ink usage remembered when you put it back, and you can 
even use the same cart in two printers of the same type and have everything 
remembered properly.

- storing the date of manufacture and reminding you when it is past it's 
use-by date (never had this happen yet)

-  rather importantly, it also tells the printer whether it is a photo-black 
or matte black cart in printers where they are alternatives in the same 
slot. This info is not only needed to set the paper and resolution 
alternatives in the driver, but also to delay the paper eject if using matte 
ink which dries more slowly than photo black.

- by checking the data on the cart at startup, the printer determines 
whether it is the same cart or a different cart (from that in place at 
shutdown) , and sets the appropriate cleaning cycles (CL or CL3)

- the chip also tells the printer if it is a new cart and thus needs a 
filling cycle, rather than a cleaning cycle.

- the number of cleaning cycles is also stored on the cart, so that ink 
usage can be calculated properly. Since carts are all swapped in and out at 
different times, this is cart-specific info.



There are probably other functions, but I'm sure that if I was designing a 
printer and cartridge system with swappable carts, having some info stored 
on each cart would be an inevitable thought on my part just from the point 
of making the setup work efficiently, accurately, and be as idiot-proof as 
possible.

But there are always 'conspiracy theorists' who see conspiracies in everyone 
else's actions. For instance, the different carts in a printer all have 
different plastic knobs on that fit or don't fit into the appropriate slot 
for that cart. Stops idiots fitting carts in the wrong slots, which I have 
seen happen, but I'm sure a conspiracy theorist would say that was invented 
to make like more difficult for 3rdparty cart manufacturers!

Enough of this; back to my photos!

Bob Frost.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Editor P.O.V. Image Service" <editor@...>

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Frost" 
> - the number of cleaning cycles is also stored on the cart, so that ink 
> usage can be calculated properly. Since carts are all swapped in and
out at 
> different times, this is cart-specific info.

Bob, all the functions of the chip you mention don't really convince
me, it can be done in much simpler ways. There are other printers with
swappable carts, like HP (for B&W printing). To me, it was clear form
day one that Epson was trying to protect themselves from 3rd party
replacement inks. BTW it is also US who pay the R&D for all those
chips and protection. 

I am aware that Epsons ink technology has been, for a few years
(pigment inks) clearly ahead of the OEM competition. But those
printers don't come for free or for very cheap (like the 69 USD
models), the 2100/2200 and 4xxx and large format printers are quite
expensive (more than the large printers from HP and Canon), so what I
expect is an honest concept: 
I pay the printer, and am done with Epson as soon as I have paid it. I
dont like the feeling of paying the "rest" or the hidden purchase
price through exorbitantly priced ink cartridges. 

If you sell prints you just can add the ink to the price, however a
lot of people print regulaty and do it for their own pleasure. Having to
replace sets of carts all the time is so expensive that I would stop
immediately if there was no 3rd party choice. Epson carts are no
option for me (even if I could probably afford it) as long as I have
the feeling of being ripped off cart after cart.
One 2100 cart costs about 17-19 Euro here in Germany, that is 20-22
USD for 17ml of ink (125ml/4oz of MIS ink is almost the same price
isn't it? And I guess MIS still make their living from it). One set
of 7 carts being about 150 USD. This is so far above what I think
being reasonable and fair that I'd rather stop home printing at all. 

Why does Epson not offer packs of lets say 5 carts with massive
rebates (40-50%)? Normally the one who buys larger quantities gets a
rebate instead of being punished each and every time.

I now use my 2100 with CFS, but should I be unable to get a
replacement once the CFS doesn't work anymore, I will switch to Canon
or whoever offers me the same quality, or get my printing done by a Lab...

Sorry for the long rant, its just my personal point of view.

regards, Bernie

Bernie,

OK, go ahead and explain how each of those functions I listed can be done in 
a simpler way. I'be be interested to know.

Bob Frost.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Bernie Ess" <albatros-@...>

Bob, all the functions of the chip you mention don't really convince
me, it can be done in much simpler ways.

Well, if it were all about the chips, then I'd simply buy unchipped
carts and paste Epson chips onto them. As I understand it, Epson has
no control over what we do with their chips after we've bought them.

Chris Hargens 



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Frost"
<bob@...> wrote:
>
> Keith,
> 
> > Bob, even you have to admit that the chip is not an innovation in any
> > sense or intent than in that of  preventing 3rd-party ink sales and
> > forcing the use of EPSON consumables.
> 
> "Even you" indeed! Trouble is that I doubt if any of us know what
was in the 
> mind of the person who had the idea of storing some info on a chip
on the 
> cart. Maybe it was as you suggest; maybe it wasn't. Maybe he/her
thought 
> they could 'kill two birds with one stone'.
> 
> From what little I know about the functioning of the chip and
printer (from 
> reading service manuals etc),  the chip does do several useful
things - such 
> as:-
> 
> - storing the ink usage of that particular cart, so that you can
swap carts 
> and still have the ink usage remembered when you put it back, and
you can 
> even use the same cart in two printers of the same type and have
everything 
> remembered properly.
> 
> - storing the date of manufacture and reminding you when it is past
it's 
> use-by date (never had this happen yet)
> 
> -  rather importantly, it also tells the printer whether it is a
photo-black 
> or matte black cart in printers where they are alternatives in the same 
> slot. This info is not only needed to set the paper and resolution 
> alternatives in the driver, but also to delay the paper eject if
using matte 
> ink which dries more slowly than photo black.
> 
> - by checking the data on the cart at startup, the printer determines 
> whether it is the same cart or a different cart (from that in place at 
> shutdown) , and sets the appropriate cleaning cycles (CL or CL3)
> 
> - the chip also tells the printer if it is a new cart and thus needs a 
> filling cycle, rather than a cleaning cycle.
> 
> - the number of cleaning cycles is also stored on the cart, so that ink 
> usage can be calculated properly. Since carts are all swapped in and
out at 
> different times, this is cart-specific info.
> 
> 
> 
> There are probably other functions, but I'm sure that if I was
designing a 
> printer and cartridge system with swappable carts, having some info
stored 
> on each cart would be an inevitable thought on my part just from the
point 
> of making the setup work efficiently, accurately, and be as
idiot-proof as 
> possible.
> 
> But there are always 'conspiracy theorists' who see conspiracies in
everyone 
> else's actions. For instance, the different carts in a printer all have 
> different plastic knobs on that fit or don't fit into the
appropriate slot 
> for that cart. Stops idiots fitting carts in the wrong slots, which
I have 
> seen happen, but I'm sure a conspiracy theorist would say that was
invented 

> to make like more difficult for 3rdparty cart manufacturers!
> 
> Enough of this; back to my photos!
> 
> Bob Frost.
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Editor P.O.V. Image Service" <editor@...>
>

> ... I doubt if any of us know what was in the
> mind of the person who had the idea of storing some info on a chip on the
> cart...

So true.  But last week a senior Epson official from their headquarters in
Long Beach told me the chips were to stop third part ink sales.

We can always come up with arguments in defense of almost any position.
Lawyers, economists and other experts for the various positions are seldom
at a loss for words in defense of their positions.  

I think it's rather ironic that the chips' remembering how full the carts
are helps me when I swap back and forth between Epson and third party carts.

The bottom line for me is whether there are going to be good carts available
to us so that we can use the inks of our choice.  Epson in their press
release claims to not be objecting to fair competition.  So, can they
identify which carts are not violating their patents?  If we ship them some
samples, will they tell us whether those carts violate patents or not?

Hopefully we'll find some answers to these questions.  

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" 
<paul.roark@...> wrote:
> 
> The bottom line for me is whether there are going to be good carts 
available
> to us so that we can use the inks of our choice.  Epson in their 
press
> release claims to not be objecting to fair competition.  So, can 
they
> identify which carts are not violating their patents?  If we ship 
them some
> samples, will they tell us whether those carts violate patents or 
not?
>

Or will they (Epson) sell (for a reasonable price) empty carts?

That's right. Stock up on the empty carts guys.



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Chris Hargens"
<chargens@...> wrote:
>
> Well, if it were all about the chips, then I'd simply buy unchipped
> carts and paste Epson chips onto them. As I understand it, Epson has
> no control over what we do with their chips after we've bought them.
> 
> Chris Hargens 
> 
> 
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Frost"
> <bob@> wrote:
> >
> > Keith,
> > 
> > > Bob, even you have to admit that the chip is not an innovation
in any
> > > sense or intent than in that of  preventing 3rd-party ink sales and
> > > forcing the use of EPSON consumables.
> > 
> > "Even you" indeed! Trouble is that I doubt if any of us know what
> was in the 
> > mind of the person who had the idea of storing some info on a chip
> on the 
> > cart. Maybe it was as you suggest; maybe it wasn't. Maybe he/her
> thought 
> > they could 'kill two birds with one stone'.
> > 
> > From what little I know about the functioning of the chip and
> printer (from 
> > reading service manuals etc),  the chip does do several useful
> things - such 
> > as:-
> > 
> > - storing the ink usage of that particular cart, so that you can
> swap carts 
> > and still have the ink usage remembered when you put it back, and
> you can 
> > even use the same cart in two printers of the same type and have
> everything 
> > remembered properly.
> > 
> > - storing the date of manufacture and reminding you when it is past
> it's 
> > use-by date (never had this happen yet)
> > 
> > -  rather importantly, it also tells the printer whether it is a
> photo-black 
> > or matte black cart in printers where they are alternatives in the
same 
> > slot. This info is not only needed to set the paper and resolution 
> > alternatives in the driver, but also to delay the paper eject if
> using matte 
> > ink which dries more slowly than photo black.
> > 
> > - by checking the data on the cart at startup, the printer determines 
> > whether it is the same cart or a different cart (from that in
place at 
> > shutdown) , and sets the appropriate cleaning cycles (CL or CL3)
> > 
> > - the chip also tells the printer if it is a new cart and thus
needs a 
> > filling cycle, rather than a cleaning cycle.
> > 
> > - the number of cleaning cycles is also stored on the cart, so
that ink 
> > usage can be calculated properly. Since carts are all swapped in and
> out at 
> > different times, this is cart-specific info.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > There are probably other functions, but I'm sure that if I was
> designing a 
> > printer and cartridge system with swappable carts, having some info
> stored 
> > on each cart would be an inevitable thought on my part just from the
> point 
> > of making the setup work efficiently, accurately, and be as
> idiot-proof as 
> > possible.
> > 
> > But there are always 'conspiracy theorists' who see conspiracies in
> everyone 
> > else's actions. For instance, the different carts in a printer all
have 

> > different plastic knobs on that fit or don't fit into the
> appropriate slot 
> > for that cart. Stops idiots fitting carts in the wrong slots, which
> I have 
> > seen happen, but I'm sure a conspiracy theorist would say that was
> invented 
> > to make like more difficult for 3rdparty cart manufacturers!
> > 
> > Enough of this; back to my photos!
> > 
> > Bob Frost.
> > 
> > 
> > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > From: "Editor P.O.V. Image Service" <editor@>
> >
>

There are already techniques for taking apart the original Epson carts
and refilling them with whatever you want if one decides not to go the
route of the cfs. 

I'm thinking more and more a really good cfs design is what we're
headed for. The the whole issues of chips and carts becomes moot and
Epson will still have to pay those attorney fees. Really cfs equals
huge savings in the long run for all size machines.If I were a MIS
engineer I would be putting my thoughts in that direction. A cfs
system that reads the ink levels and possibly has a vacum that keeps
air out of the lines. Now that would be sweet and we wouuld buy our
ink by the gallons not by the mili-liter. At that point Epson would
have to choice but to offer the finest ink in the world to keep up.

John




-- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Greg"
<dfaprinting@...> wrote:

>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" 
> <paul.roark@> wrote:
> > 
> > The bottom line for me is whether there are going to be good carts 
> available
> > to us so that we can use the inks of our choice.  Epson in their 
> press
> > release claims to not be objecting to fair competition.  So, can 
> they
> > identify which carts are not violating their patents?  If we ship 
> them some
> > samples, will they tell us whether those carts violate patents or 
> not?
> >
> 
> Or will they (Epson) sell (for a reasonable price) empty carts?
>

Paul,

What's the problem with putting your inks in Epson carts and resetting the 
chips? Providing the inks are not contravening ink patents!

Bob Frost.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Paul Roark" <paul.roark@...>

The bottom line for me is whether there are going to be good carts available
to us so that we can use the inks of our choice.