Digital BW, The Print

Anyone here scanning Pyro stained negative with any success?

Any info or links will be appreciated.

Thanks,

Scott

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "scott_now_coming" 
<scott_now_coming@...> wrote:
>
> Anyone here scanning Pyro stained negative with any success?
> 
> Any info or links will be appreciated.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Scott
>
 I tried scanning some 35 mm negatives on my Canon FS4000 and Epson 4870.  The 
negatives seem to have a lot of noise, come out very light (even with a good histogram), 
and  they seem to have an opaque "film" on the negatives.  However, when I work them in 
Photoshop CS2, the noise is not seen in my 8 by 10 and 11 by 14 glossy prints.   But, my 
B&W prints are rather high contrast;  a lot of black areas with Zone 3 detail.  

The "but" in my response is that my scanner is not calibrated and I used Vuescan 8.3.32 
and 8.08 to see if it made a difference.  Also, I had the same problem with Iford XP2.

I tried regular B&W film "Iford 50" and it does not have the same appearance.  If you get an 
answers, please post them.  

Martin

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "mxgo95747" 
<mxgo95747@...> wrote:
>
> --- In 
DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "scott_now_coming" 
> <scott_now_coming@> wrote:
> >
> > Anyone here scanning Pyro stained negative with any success?
> > 
> > Any info or links will be appreciated.
> > 
> > Thanks,
> > 
> > Scott
> >
>  I tried scanning some 35 mm negatives on my Canon FS4000 and Epson 
4870.  The 
> negatives seem to have a lot of noise, come out very light (even 
with a good histogram), 
> and  they seem to have an opaque "film" on the negatives.  However, 
when I work them in 
> Photoshop CS2, the noise is not seen in my 8 by 10 and 11 by 14 
glossy prints.   But, my 
> B&W prints are rather high contrast;  a lot of black areas with 
Zone 3 detail.  
> 
> The "but" in my response is that my scanner is not calibrated and I 
used Vuescan 8.3.32 
> and 8.08 to see if it made a difference.  Also, I had the same 
problem with Iford XP2.
> 
> I tried regular B&W film "Iford 50" and it does not have the same 
appearance.  If you get an 
> answers, please post them.  
> 
> Martin


Martin,
I am using W2D2, Wimberley's Pyro version, FP4+, MF, and have not had 
those issues. I scan with an Epson 4870 as a 24 bit color neg then 
convert to B&W in CS. I also use Vuescan.

Here's an example:

http://tinyurl.com/r5jc5

Pardon the size but squashing it down just doesn't work.

Jules

-> I am using W2D2, Wimberley's Pyro version, FP4+, MF, and have not had 
> those issues. I scan with an Epson 4870 as a 24 bit color neg then 
> convert to B&W in CS. I also use Vuescan.
> 
> Here's an example:
> 
> http://tinyurl.com/r5jc5
> 
> Pardon the size but squashing it down just doesn't work.
> 
> Jules
>


 Also used FP4 (and FP5), except that I scanned in 16 bit B&W negative.  I will try scanning as 
24 bit color negatives.  

Thanks,

Martin

Hi Martin,

Thanks for the reply.

Wading through the results of a GOOGLE search, I saw where a guy 
scanned some Pyro negs. I think he scanned them in RGB and used the 
green channel for printing. 

He was really excited about the results. And the article was from 
2003. So, I'm encouraged.

I have a couple of 120 rolls of Delta 3200 in my freezer. I'm going 
to find a development time for this film and my Pyro and give it a 
shot.

Also, I hear the chromogenic films scan real nicely.

(I haven't shot film since I went digital 5 yrs ago. I have my Rollei 
loaded and ready to go. Going to shoot some film tomorrow. Now, I'm 
just waiting for the Epson V-750 to be released.)


Scott


> >
>  I tried scanning some 35 mm negatives on my Canon FS4000 and Epson 
4870.  The 
> negatives seem to have a lot of noise, come out very light (even 
with a good histogram), 
> and  they seem to have an opaque "film" on the negatives.  However, 
when I work them in 
> Photoshop CS2, the noise is not seen in my 8 by 10 and 11 by 14 
glossy prints.   But, my 
> B&W prints are rather high contrast;  a lot of black areas with 
Zone 3 detail.  
> 
> The "but" in my response is that my scanner is not calibrated and I 
used Vuescan 8.3.32 
> and 8.08 to see if it made a difference.  Also, I had the same 
problem with Iford XP2.
> 
> I tried regular B&W film "Iford 50" and it does not have the same 
appearance.  If you get an 

> answers, please post them.  
> 
> Martin
>

Jules, 

Are you using only one "channel" to print with? 

Or are you using the file as RGB to print with?

Thanks,

Scott

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "lulalake_1999" 
<lulalake_1999@...> wrote:
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "mxgo95747" 
> <mxgo95747@> wrote:
> >
> > --- In 
> DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "scott_now_coming" 
> > <scott_now_coming@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Anyone here scanning Pyro stained negative with any success?
> > > 
> > > Any info or links will be appreciated.
> > > 
> > > Thanks,
> > > 
> > > Scott
> > >
> >  I tried scanning some 35 mm negatives on my Canon FS4000 and 
Epson 
> 4870.  The 
> > negatives seem to have a lot of noise, come out very light (even 
> with a good histogram), 
> > and  they seem to have an opaque "film" on the negatives.  
However, 
> when I work them in 
> > Photoshop CS2, the noise is not seen in my 8 by 10 and 11 by 14 
> glossy prints.   But, my 
> > B&W prints are rather high contrast;  a lot of black areas with 
> Zone 3 detail.  
> > 
> > The "but" in my response is that my scanner is not calibrated and 
I 
> used Vuescan 8.3.32 
> > and 8.08 to see if it made a difference.  Also, I had the same 
> problem with Iford XP2.
> > 
> > I tried regular B&W film "Iford 50" and it does not have the same 
> appearance.  If you get an 
> > answers, please post them.  
> > 
> > Martin
> 
> 
> Martin,
> I am using W2D2, Wimberley's Pyro version, FP4+, MF, and have not 
had 

> those issues. I scan with an Epson 4870 as a 24 bit color neg then 
> convert to B&W in CS. I also use Vuescan.
> 
> Here's an example:
> 
> http://tinyurl.com/r5jc5
> 
> Pardon the size but squashing it down just doesn't work.
> 
> Jules
>

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "scott_now_coming" 
<scott_now_coming@...> wrote:
>
> Jules, 
> 
> Are you using only one "channel" to print with? 
> 
> Or are you using the file as RGB to print with?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Scott
> 

Hi Scott,
I do all my processing (not really all that much on a pyro neg)as a B&W 
scanned in as RGB, then when I go to print, I convert the image to a 
20% dot gain grayscale. I use QTR and a 2200 for smaller work and farm 
it out for larger prints. 

Jules

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "lulalake_1999" 
<lulalake_1999@...> wrote:
>
> -

> I do all my processing (not really all that much on a pyro neg)as a B&W 
> scanned in as RGB, then when I go to print, I convert the image to a 
> 20% dot gain grayscale. I use QTR and a 2200 for smaller work and farm 
> it out for larger prints. 
> 
> Jules
>


Jules, thanks for the input.  Using the 24 bit color negative setting, in Vuescan, for "Pyro" 
processed B&W film and converting them to B&W in PhotoShop did the trick.  I have a lab in 
Sacramento, California do the "pyro" processing.  They only do B&W work.

Martin

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "mxgo95747" 
<mxgo95747@...> wrote:
>
> --- In 
DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "lulalake_1999" 
> <lulalake_1999@> wrote:
> >
> > -
> 
> > I do all my processing (not really all that much on a pyro neg)as 
a B&W 
> > scanned in as RGB, then when I go to print, I convert the image 
to a 
> > 20% dot gain grayscale. I use QTR and a 2200 for smaller work and 
farm 
> > it out for larger prints. 
> > 
> > Jules
> >
> 
> 
> Jules, thanks for the input.  Using the 24 bit color negative 
setting, in Vuescan, for "Pyro" 
> processed B&W film and converting them to B&W in PhotoShop did the 
trick.  I have a lab in 
> Sacramento, California do the "pyro" processing.  They only do B&W 
work.
> 
> Martin

Thanks for the tip Martin. Could you post the URL for tha lab so I 
can stop stinking up the house with pyro developing?

Thanks again

Jules

Hi Jules & Martin

1. There is a fairly extensive article on scanning pyro negatives and
selectively using different color channels in the magazine 'Ag' No.
26. Here is their webpage with the possibility to order back numbers:
http://www.ag-photo.co.uk/

2. I have been working with PMK for the last 15 years and am presently
also using Pyrocat HD. I scan both kinds of negatives either with
EPSON 4990/Vue Scan or IMACON 646 and have beautiful results with both
developers and both scanners. 

On and off I am poring over the following question which is directly
pertinent to this list:

Enlarging pyro negs (PMK and/or Pyrocat) on multigrade silver paper
gives you the advantage of the yellow/brown stain selectively holding
back the hard blue light of the enlarger so that the highlights be
selectively filtered down by the stain and thus giving better
differentiation in the highlights. This has been described in depth by
 Gordon Hutchings (inventor of PMK) and also by Sandy King (inventor
of Pyrocat).

Now what I would like to work out is how to achieve similiar increase
of differentiation of highlights in scanned pyro negatives. This would
have to entail scanning the pyro negs in colour and then simulating
the selective filtering by intelligent use of the channel mixer or
some such in Photoshop.

Has anyone any ideas in this direction or does anyone know someone
with such ideas? ;-)

best regards
Juraj

> > 
> > > I do all my processing (not really all that much on a pyro neg)as 
> a B&W 
> > > scanned in as RGB, then when I go to print, I convert the image 
> to a 
> > > 20% dot gain grayscale. I use QTR and a 2200 for smaller work and 
> farm 
> > > it out for larger prints. 
> > > 
> > > Jules
> > >
> > 
> > 
> > Jules, thanks for the input.  Using the 24 bit color negative 
> setting, in Vuescan, for "Pyro" 
> > processed B&W film and converting them to B&W in PhotoShop did the 
> trick.  I have a lab in 
> > Sacramento, California do the "pyro" processing.  They only do B&W 
> work.
> > 
> > Martin
> 
> Thanks for the tip Martin. Could you post the URL for tha lab so I 
> can stop stinking up the house with pyro developing?
> 
> Thanks again
> 
> Jules
>

--. Could you post the URL for tha lab so I 
> can stop stinking up the house with pyro developing?
> 
> Thanks again
> 
> Jules
>

http://www.coxblackandwhitelab.com

Since I live about half an hour away, I always spend a few minutes talking them and usually 
get a lot of help from them.

Martin

jurajlipscher wrote:
> 2. I have been working with PMK for the last 15 years and am presently
> also using Pyrocat HD. I scan both kinds of negatives either with
> EPSON 4990/Vue Scan or IMACON 646 and have beautiful results with both
> developers and both scanners.


Hi Juraj,

I'm working along the same line.
Alas, every time I decide to concentrate on a specific film, it tends to 
disappear from the market...
Can you tell me what format/film combinations you prefer?

Best regards,
Louis

"I used pyro on a couple of films a while back and while I was
impressed with the lack of grain in areas of continuous tone (sky
etc.) I found the grain quite exagerated in other areas compared to
some other developers"

I performed extensive testing comparing pyro to D76 several years ago. My 
basic procedure was to make duplicate negatives of various scenes, develop 
one in pyro (PMK) and one in D76 1-1 using lford HP5+ film, then making 
prints from both. I found no advantage  to the pyro prints in the sense that 
identical prints could be made from either set of negatives. I concluded 
that even if there happens to be some scene somewhere that could be 
photographed and better processed in pyro, for the vast majority of scenes 
pyro just wasn't worth screwing around with.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Chris Ellis" <christian.ellis@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2006 3:15 AM
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Scanning Pyro Negs?


I used pyro on a couple of films a while back and while I was
impressed with the lack of grain in areas of continuous tone (sky
etc.) I found the grain quite exagerated in other areas compared to
some other developers.

I used FP 4 and Pan F in 35mm and have a Minolta Scan Dual III.  The
Pan F was fairly grainless but was very high contrast so highlights
didn't hold a great deal of detail.  I didn't use an alkaline fixer
which I understand makes a difference to the stain.  Perhaps I should
have another go with an alkaline fix and reduce my dev time...  (I'm
afraid I've been chasing silver bullets for a while and never settle
long enough on any technique to really work it out properly.  When
will I learn?)

One idea I've recently had was simulating the effects of Pyro in
Photoshop.

Roughly speakly:

1)  Develop and scan your film as normal - I like to apply a slight
USM with no threshold to make the grain less mushy, but your scanner
might be better than this.
2)  Use grain removal software (eg Neat Image / Noise Ninja) to
produce a reduced grain version of the original.
3)  Create a photoshop file with two layers:  the full grain and the
smooth.  Probably put the grainy version on the bottom.
4)  Create a layer mask for the top layer using the technique
described for capture sharpening here:
http://www.creativepro.com/story/feature/20357-2.html.  Blend the two
images by eg setting the opacity of the top layer to 50%.

I've inconclusively played around with this but wonder if anyone else
has some similar techniques up their sleeve.

Some further thoughts:

1)  You could do this in reverse using digital capture (another silver
bullet):  your initial capture becomes your grain-free layer and you
can create a layer with added noise as your grain layer.
2)  Speculatively:  you could use a pyro negative to emphasise this
effect if you could somehow separate the grain and the mask into
layers.  You would probably need a really good stain to stand any
chance of getting this to work.

Chris





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Hi All -
I'm a little late to this discussion but perhaps can add a little to 
what Juraj has written.
Many years ago I was mixing Pyro formula from scratch but found that  
PMK worked at least as well,
and came partially pre-mixed.  I used it for all my fine art negatives 
- 4X5, but mostly 120 and
35mm.  I love the staining of the shadow areas, which allows for much 
better control of the highlights
without burning out shadows. Additionally, there's something in the 
formula that slows the silver particles
from migrating into adjacent areas with less density.  I don't remember 
the technical explanation, but the
net result is sharper delineation.  Depending on the subject and the 
light, there can be a dramatic
improvement in prints.

So 5 or 6 years ago, I started scanning some of those negatives, and 
the results were terrific. Because the
stain is greenish. brownish, yellowish :-), my best results have been 
scanning in RGB and as Jurj has mentioned, converting
to grayscale via channel mixing in Photo Shop. My logic for this is 
that the green channel controls much of
the shadow detail you want to show through (since most of the stain is 
in shadow areas).  Also, one
would have to scan the negative as if it were a transparency - i.e.: 
the scan comes up as a negative.
Only after working on it in channel mixer should it be inverted to 
positive. That will take some experimenting
because it's so difficult to make tonal judgments looking at a negative 
image, but IMO it's worth the trouble.

As far as grain is concerned - I think there may be a little more grain 
with PMK developers, but personally, I like
grain most of the time and never thought of it as a problem.

On Mar 28, 2006, at 4:40 PM, 
DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com wrote:

>
> Message: 2
>    Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2006 16:34:56 -0000
>    From: "jurajlipscher" <juraj@...>
> Subject: Re: Scanning Pyro Negs?
>
> Hi Jules & Martin
>
> 1. There is a fairly extensive article on scanning pyro negatives and
> selectively using different color channels in the magazine 'Ag' No.
> 26. Here is their webpage with the possibility to order back numbers:
> http://www.ag-photo.co.uk/
>
> 2. I have been working with PMK for the last 15 years and am presently
> also using Pyrocat HD. I scan both kinds of negatives either with
> EPSON 4990/Vue Scan or IMACON 646 and have beautiful results with both
> developers and both scanners.
>
> On and off I am poring over the following question which is directly
> pertinent to this list:
>
> Enlarging pyro negs (PMK and/or Pyrocat) on multigrade silver paper
> gives you the advantage of the yellow/brown stain selectively holding
> back the hard blue light of the enlarger so that the highlights be
> selectively filtered down by the stain and thus giving better
> differentiation in the highlights. This has been described in depth by
>  Gordon Hutchings (inventor of PMK) and also by Sandy King (inventor
> of Pyrocat).
>
> Now what I would like to work out is how to achieve similiar increase
> of differentiation of highlights in scanned pyro negatives. This would
> have to entail scanning the pyro negs in colour and then simulating
> the selective filtering by intelligent use of the channel mixer or
> some such in Photoshop.
>
> Has anyone any ideas in this direction or does anyone know someone
> with such ideas? ;-)
>
> best regards
> Juraj

I used pyro on a couple of films a while back and while I was
impressed with the lack of grain in areas of continuous tone (sky
etc.) I found the grain quite exagerated in other areas compared to
some other developers.  

I used FP 4 and Pan F in 35mm and have a Minolta Scan Dual III.  The
Pan F was fairly grainless but was very high contrast so highlights
didn't hold a great deal of detail.  I didn't use an alkaline fixer
which I understand makes a difference to the stain.  Perhaps I should
have another go with an alkaline fix and reduce my dev time...  (I'm
afraid I've been chasing silver bullets for a while and never settle
long enough on any technique to really work it out properly.  When
will I learn?)

One idea I've recently had was simulating the effects of Pyro in
Photoshop.

Roughly speakly:  

1)  Develop and scan your film as normal - I like to apply a slight
USM with no threshold to make the grain less mushy, but your scanner
might be better than this.
2)  Use grain removal software (eg Neat Image / Noise Ninja) to
produce a reduced grain version of the original.
3)  Create a photoshop file with two layers:  the full grain and the
smooth.  Probably put the grainy version on the bottom.
4)  Create a layer mask for the top layer using the technique
described for capture sharpening here:
http://www.creativepro.com/story/feature/20357-2.html.  Blend the two
images by eg setting the opacity of the top layer to 50%.

I've inconclusively played around with this but wonder if anyone else
has some similar techniques up their sleeve.

Some further thoughts:

1)  You could do this in reverse using digital capture (another silver
bullet):  your initial capture becomes your grain-free layer and you
can create a layer with added noise as your grain layer.
2)  Speculatively:  you could use a pyro negative to emphasise this
effect if you could somehow separate the grain and the mask into
layers.  You would probably need a really good stain to stand any
chance of getting this to work.

Chris

Hallo Louis

In the old days I used TriX with PMK in 5x7" but since about 5 years 
I am almost exclusively using 120 TMax 100 with either PMK or 
Pyrocat HD in 6x6 and 6x12. TMY 400 in these developers is a tiny 
bit too grainy for my taste so I try to avoid it.

Up till now TMax films are still available without problems here in 
Switzerland.

best regards
Juraj
> 
> Hi Juraj,
> 
> I'm working along the same line.
> Alas, every time I decide to concentrate on a specific film, it 
tends to 

> disappear from the market...
> Can you tell me what format/film combinations you prefer?
> 
> Best regards,
> Louis
>

Brian Ellis wrote:

> "I used pyro on a couple of films a while back and while I was
> impressed with the lack of grain in areas of continuous tone (sky
> etc.) I found the grain quite exagerated in other areas compared to
> some other developers"
>
> I performed extensive testing comparing pyro to D76 several years ago. 
> My basic procedure was to make duplicate negatives of various scenes, 
> develop one in pyro (PMK) and one in D76 1-1 using lford HP5+ film, 
> then making prints from both. I found no advantage  to the pyro prints 
> in the sense that identical prints could be made from either set of 
> negatives. I concluded that even if there happens to be some scene 
> somewhere that could be photographed and better processed in pyro, for 
> the vast majority of scenes pyro just wasn't worth screwing around with.

I came to the same conclusion -- that pyro just isn't worth it. Not by 
doing the experiments myself, but by hearing results from you and a 
bunch of others who had done the experiments.

I ended up using XTOL at 1:3 with Tri-X. I compared it extensively to 
HC-110 and exchanged some email the inventors of XTOL and Steve Anchell. 
My conclusion was that you didn't really start to see differences 
between film developers in prints until you got up to around 15x 
enlargements. Since I'm shooting 5x4, I never make prints with anything 
like that much enlargement.

I ended up with XTOL because it gives a nice clean sharp image with 
decent grain (not too big, nicely formed), and nice even tonality. That, 
and it gives me 2/3 stop more real film speed, and it's way more 
environmentally friendly than the others, especially the pyro family.

And I should note that Tri-X with XTOL is really easy to scan well. It 
scans well on a cheap flatbed like an old Epson 2450, and it scan really 
well on my drum scanner. And because the negative isn't colored like a 
pyro negative is, I can easily scan it with just the green channel which 
saves me a bunch of disk space and workflow time.

So the closest I got to pyro was to buy the nitrile gloves. People who 
use pyro swear by it though, so clearly YMMV.
--
Bruce Watson

I just loaded some Delta 3200 in my Rollei. I'll shoot it in the next 
couple of days and the develope it in Pyro TEA.

Unfortunately, I won't have the new Epson scanner for a while as 
Epson isn't yet accepting "pre-orders" for the V-750. :>(

Anyone using Pyro TEA?

Scott

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Clayton Price 
<clay@...> wrote:
>
> 
> Hi All -
> I'm a little late to this discussion but perhaps can add a little 
to 
> what Juraj has written.
> Many years ago I was mixing Pyro formula from scratch but found 
that  
> PMK worked at least as well,
> and came partially pre-mixed.  I used it for all my fine art 
negatives 
> - 4X5, but mostly 120 and
> 35mm.  I love the staining of the shadow areas, which allows for 
much 
> better control of the highlights
> without burning out shadows. Additionally, there's something in the 
> formula that slows the silver particles
> from migrating into adjacent areas with less density.  I don't 
remember 
> the technical explanation, but the
> net result is sharper delineation.  Depending on the subject and 
the 
> light, there can be a dramatic
> improvement in prints.
> 
> So 5 or 6 years ago, I started scanning some of those negatives, 
and 
> the results were terrific. Because the
> stain is greenish. brownish, yellowish :-), my best results have 
been 
> scanning in RGB and as Jurj has mentioned, converting
> to grayscale via channel mixing in Photo Shop. My logic for this is 
> that the green channel controls much of
> the shadow detail you want to show through (since most of the stain 
is 
> in shadow areas).  Also, one
> would have to scan the negative as if it were a transparency - 
i.e.: 
> the scan comes up as a negative.
> Only after working on it in channel mixer should it be inverted to 
> positive. That will take some experimenting
> because it's so difficult to make tonal judgments looking at a 
negative 
> image, but IMO it's worth the trouble.
> 
> As far as grain is concerned - I think there may be a little more 
grain 
> with PMK developers, but personally, I like
> grain most of the time and never thought of it as a problem.
> 
> On Mar 28, 2006, at 4:40 PM, 
> DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com wrote:
> 
> >
> > Message: 2
> >    Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2006 16:34:56 -0000
> >    From: "jurajlipscher" <juraj@...>
> > Subject: Re: Scanning Pyro Negs?
> >
> > Hi Jules & Martin
> >
> > 1. There is a fairly extensive article on scanning pyro negatives 
and
> > selectively using different color channels in the magazine 'Ag' 
No.
> > 26. Here is their webpage with the possibility to order back 
numbers:
> > http://www.ag-photo.co.uk/
> >
> > 2. I have been working with PMK for the last 15 years and am 
presently
> > also using Pyrocat HD. I scan both kinds of negatives either with
> > EPSON 4990/Vue Scan or IMACON 646 and have beautiful results with 
both
> > developers and both scanners.
> >
> > On and off I am poring over the following question which is 
directly
> > pertinent to this list:
> >
> > Enlarging pyro negs (PMK and/or Pyrocat) on multigrade silver 
paper
> > gives you the advantage of the yellow/brown stain selectively 
holding
> > back the hard blue light of the enlarger so that the highlights be
> > selectively filtered down by the stain and thus giving better
> > differentiation in the highlights. This has been described in 
depth by
> >  Gordon Hutchings (inventor of PMK) and also by Sandy King 
(inventor
> > of Pyrocat).
> >
> > Now what I would like to work out is how to achieve similiar 
increase
> > of differentiation of highlights in scanned pyro negatives. This 
would
> > have to entail scanning the pyro negs in colour and then 
simulating

> > the selective filtering by intelligent use of the channel mixer or
> > some such in Photoshop.
> >
> > Has anyone any ideas in this direction or does anyone know someone
> > with such ideas? ;-)
> >
> > best regards
> > Juraj
>

Chris,

The fixer you used washed away the "strining", so you didn't get the 
effects of the pyro develpoer.

Scott

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Chris Ellis" 
<christian.ellis@...> wrote:
>
> I used pyro on a couple of films a while back and while I was
> impressed with the lack of grain in areas of continuous tone (sky
> etc.) I found the grain quite exagerated in other areas compared to
> some other developers.  
> 
> I used FP 4 and Pan F in 35mm and have a Minolta Scan Dual III.  The
> Pan F was fairly grainless but was very high contrast so highlights
> didn't hold a great deal of detail.  I didn't use an alkaline fixer
> which I understand makes a difference to the stain.  Perhaps I 
should
> have another go with an alkaline fix and reduce my dev time...  (I'm
> afraid I've been chasing silver bullets for a while and never settle
> long enough on any technique to really work it out properly.  When
> will I learn?)
> 
> One idea I've recently had was simulating the effects of Pyro in
> Photoshop.
> 
> Roughly speakly:  
> 
> 1)  Develop and scan your film as normal - I like to apply a slight
> USM with no threshold to make the grain less mushy, but your scanner
> might be better than this.
> 2)  Use grain removal software (eg Neat Image / Noise Ninja) to
> produce a reduced grain version of the original.
> 3)  Create a photoshop file with two layers:  the full grain and the
> smooth.  Probably put the grainy version on the bottom.
> 4)  Create a layer mask for the top layer using the technique
> described for capture sharpening here:
> http://www.creativepro.com/story/feature/20357-2.html.  Blend the 
two
> images by eg setting the opacity of the top layer to 50%.
> 
> I've inconclusively played around with this but wonder if anyone 
else
> has some similar techniques up their sleeve.
> 
> Some further thoughts:
> 
> 1)  You could do this in reverse using digital capture (another 
silver

> bullet):  your initial capture becomes your grain-free layer and you
> can create a layer with added noise as your grain layer.
> 2)  Speculatively:  you could use a pyro negative to emphasise this
> effect if you could somehow separate the grain and the mask into
> layers.  You would probably need a really good stain to stand any
> chance of getting this to work.
> 
> Chris
>

One of the main advantages of using Pyro TEA is you only have to buy 
it about once every 10 years or so. Just top it off with "fresh" 
developer.

When it gets to the consistancy of glue, make a new batch.

Mine is 6 years old and still going strong. Not ever close to "glue"!

Scott

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Brian Ellis" 
<bellis60@...> wrote:
>
> "I used pyro on a couple of films a while back and while I was
> impressed with the lack of grain in areas of continuous tone (sky
> etc.) I found the grain quite exagerated in other areas compared to
> some other developers"
> 
> I performed extensive testing comparing pyro to D76 several years 
ago. My 
> basic procedure was to make duplicate negatives of various scenes, 
develop 
> one in pyro (PMK) and one in D76 1-1 using lford HP5+ film, then 
making 
> prints from both. I found no advantage  to the pyro prints in the 
sense that 
> identical prints could be made from either set of negatives. I 
concluded 
> that even if there happens to be some scene somewhere that could be 
> photographed and better processed in pyro, for the vast majority of 
scenes 
> pyro just wasn't worth screwing around with.
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Chris Ellis" <christian.ellis@...>
> To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2006 3:15 AM
> Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Scanning Pyro Negs?
> 
> 
> I used pyro on a couple of films a while back and while I was
> impressed with the lack of grain in areas of continuous tone (sky
> etc.) I found the grain quite exagerated in other areas compared to
> some other developers.
> 
> I used FP 4 and Pan F in 35mm and have a Minolta Scan Dual III.  The
> Pan F was fairly grainless but was very high contrast so highlights
> didn't hold a great deal of detail.  I didn't use an alkaline fixer
> which I understand makes a difference to the stain.  Perhaps I 
should
> have another go with an alkaline fix and reduce my dev time...  (I'm
> afraid I've been chasing silver bullets for a while and never settle
> long enough on any technique to really work it out properly.  When
> will I learn?)
> 
> One idea I've recently had was simulating the effects of Pyro in
> Photoshop.
> 
> Roughly speakly:
> 
> 1)  Develop and scan your film as normal - I like to apply a slight
> USM with no threshold to make the grain less mushy, but your scanner
> might be better than this.
> 2)  Use grain removal software (eg Neat Image / Noise Ninja) to
> produce a reduced grain version of the original.
> 3)  Create a photoshop file with two layers:  the full grain and the
> smooth.  Probably put the grainy version on the bottom.
> 4)  Create a layer mask for the top layer using the technique
> described for capture sharpening here:
> http://www.creativepro.com/story/feature/20357-2.html.  Blend the 
two
> images by eg setting the opacity of the top layer to 50%.
> 
> I've inconclusively played around with this but wonder if anyone 
else
> has some similar techniques up their sleeve.
> 
> Some further thoughts:
> 
> 1)  You could do this in reverse using digital capture (another 
silver
> bullet):  your initial capture becomes your grain-free layer and you
> can create a layer with added noise as your grain layer.
> 2)  Speculatively:  you could use a pyro negative to emphasise this
> effect if you could somehow separate the grain and the mask into
> layers.  You would probably need a really good stain to stand any
> chance of getting this to work.
> 
> Chris
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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