Yahoo Groups archive

Digital BW, The Print

Index last updated: 2026-04-28 22:56 UTC

Thread

Clarification

Clarification

2006-07-28 by chriskjezp

I'm very grateful to all of the help I've received, and I hope to be able to answer some 
questions rather than simply ask them soon.

My head is swimming with RIPs, ICCs, curves, MIS inks, etc. etc.  I've come a long way I think 
in my understanding in the last 48 hours, but I'm still hazy in a few areas.  

1. What is the relationship between between toning curves (such as the "warm", "neutral", etc. 
UT2 and UT7 curves on Paul's website) and ICC profiles (that are specific to inks/papers but 
don't have reference to temperature).  Would I use both of them, i.e. a warm tone curve along 
with an ICC profile for the proper ink/paper combo?  

2. How do the ICC profiles and toning curves for the r220 interact with using a variable UT-
R2 inkset as described by Clayton?

3. With the 2200, is there an advantage to using the ICC/curves method instead of QTR?  If I 
did use QTR and UT7 inks (with the 2200), which inkset would I need to buy - neutral, warm 
or variable (as described in Paul's UT7 for 2200 article)?

Thank you again for your invaluable help,
Chris

RE: [Digital BW] Clarification

2006-07-28 by Paul Roark

>... What is the relationship between toning curves 
>(such as the "warm", "neutral", etc. UT2 and UT7 curves 
>on Paul's website) and ICC profiles (that are specific 
>to inks/papers but don't have reference to temperature). 
>Would I use both of them, i.e. a warm tone curve along 
>with an ICC profile for the proper ink/paper combo? 

Roy has 2 version of the Create ICC program.  For the monotone UT-R2 inkset,
where the tone is controlled by which cartridges are plugged in, I use the
grayscale "Create ICC" version.  That is used simply to linearize the system
(smooth the ramp and be sure it matches the monitor).  (Note that the 220
with UT-R2 prints very well on many papers even with no ICC.)

For inksets that are variable tone, I'm starting to use the "Create
ICC-RGB."  This version allows not only the linearization, but it also
allows me to embed Photoshop *.acv curves into the ICC.  See
http://home1.gte.net/res09aij/Embedding_Photoshop_Curves_in_ICCs.pdf  

The UT-3D is the first inkset where I've used this from the outset, but the
UT2 and UT7, among others, can also use the approach.  When those inksets
were first set up, and in the Readme files I have posted on them, the
workflow is to edit in grayscale, convert to RGB, apply a tone curve, and
print through the Epson driver.  Now the ICCs made with Create ICC-RGB that
have the curves embedded in them take care of converting the file to RGB and
applying the curve.  So, it's a simplified workflow that is also "color
managed" and linearized.  

I post the curves as well as ICCs, but that is so others can use the curves
to make their own ICCs, thus having a custom ICC instead of a "canned" one.
Not only are all printers a bit different, but ink and paper batches also
vary.  So, being able to make the ICCs specific to the ink and paper being
used might result in a better grayscale ramp.

>2. How do the ICC profiles and toning curves for the r220 interact 
>with using a variable UT-R2 inkset as described by Clayton?

I can only speak to my own workflows, but I think Clayton is using the
sliders to get some tone control where both neutral and warm carts are
plugged in.  An ICC could be used to linearize the output from that system.
You'd still have to remember to set the sliders.  (I'd recommend the ICC
name include the settings to remind you what they are.)  An ICC in the print
preview might be very useful in workflows that use sliders because they can
throw off the ramp.

>3. With the 2200, is there an advantage to using the ICC/curves 
> method instead of QTR?

It depends what you're going to use the 2200 for.  If you wanted to print
good B&W with the color inkset installed, you'd need QTR or other third
party rip.  If, like me, you're running a UT-3D inkset in the 2200, then the
ICC workflow is arguably easier on a Windows machine because you can print
from Photoshop. I also like the monitor-matching aspects of the ICC
workflow, but I'm not versed in what QTR users do to get a monitor match. 

> If I did use QTR and UT7 inks (with the 2200), which inkset 
>would I need to buy - neutral, warm 
>or variable (as described in Paul's UT7 for 2200 article)?

The UT7 is a variable-tone inkset.  There is no warm or neutral version.
The tone is controlled by the curves -- either PS or QTR.  When I wrote the
UT7 Readme file I used the workflow that converts the grayscale to RGB and
then applies the tone curve in PS.  If I were to use that inkset today, I'd
embed the curves into ICCs, as described in the above URL.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Re: [Digital BW] Clarification

2006-07-28 by chriskjezp

> I can only speak to my own workflows, but I think Clayton is using the
> sliders to get some tone control where both neutral and warm carts are
> plugged in.  An ICC could be used to linearize the output from that system.
> You'd still have to remember to set the sliders.  (I'd recommend the ICC
> name include the settings to remind you what they are.)  An ICC in the print
> preview might be very useful in workflows that use sliders because they can
> throw off the ramp.

So, to be sure I understand, I would use an ICC in this workflow to linearize the system 
(smooth the ramp and match the print to the monitor), while using the sliders to vary the 
tone?
 
> The UT7 is a variable-tone inkset.  There is no warm or neutral version.
> The tone is controlled by the curves -- either PS or QTR.  When I wrote the
> UT7 Readme file I used the workflow that converts the grayscale to RGB and
> then applies the tone curve in PS.  If I were to use that inkset today, I'd
> embed the curves into ICCs, as described in the above URL.

In this case I would download the curves and use Roy's tool to make an ICC profile for each 
paper and tone (i.e. cool/warm/sepia) combination I wanted?  In some cases (not all, as 
you explained in an earlier post) I could use the ICC profile to soft-proof the print in PS as 
well as inserting it in the "Print with preview" dialog to smooth the ramp and alter the tone 
of the print?

Thanks again for all of your help, Paul.  It is much appreciated!

Chris

RE: [Digital BW] Clarification

2006-07-28 by Paul Roark

Chris,

> > ... An ICC in the print
> > preview might be very useful in workflows that use sliders 
> > because they can throw off the ramp.

> So, to be sure I understand, I would use an ICC in this 
> workflow to linearize the system (smooth the ramp and match
>  the print to the monitor), while using the sliders 
> to vary the tone?

That is one way that the slider method of control might be used.

However, I'd also recommend you start simple.  You could start with a simple
UT-R2 system with no ICCs, sliders or curves.  As you're finding out, the
learning curve can be rather long and intimidating for someone just starting
out with digital B&W.  I think the positive feedback of loading the ink,
pushing the print button and getting a good print with nothing more is
important, and the UT-R2 is one of the best ways to get to that there.



> > The UT7 is a variable-tone inkset. There is no warm or neutral version.
> > The tone is controlled by the curves -- either PS or QTR. 
> > When I wrote the UT7 Readme file I used the workflow that 
> > converts the grayscale to RGB and then applies the tone curve in PS.
> > If I were to use that inkset today, I'd
> > embed the curves into ICCs, as described in the above URL.

> In this case I would download the curves and use Roy's tool to 
> make an ICC profile for each paper and tone 
> (i.e. cool/warm/sepia) combination I wanted?

Yes.  For the 1280 I made a few ICCs in part just to see that the system
would work.  For UT7, you'd have to make your own, but the curves are where
the work is, and there are quite a few of them posted on my web pages.

For an explanation of how to embed curves into ICCs, see
http://home1.gte.net/res09aij/Embedding_Photoshop_Curves_in_ICCs.pdf


> In some cases (not all, as you explained in an earlier post) 
> I could use the ICC profile to soft-proof the print in PS as 
> well as inserting it in the "Print with preview" dialog to 
> smooth the ramp and alter the tone of the print?

Yes.

Happy printing.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

RE: [Digital BW] Clarification

2006-07-28 by ann clancy

Paul and Chris
   
  i have been lurking here for some time, trying to gather information for future use.
   
  I was very taken with chris' idea of using the inexpenisve r220 with all black inks as i am only interested in learning about printing black and white images.  At this time i just can't justify spending money on a 2400 .  Ink use is the issue, not using it and having it dry up on me is the major draw back.
   
  Paul's statement about the learning curve with learning to print black and white certainly makes a lot of sense to me and i need to keep it simple for sure .
  If i understand Paul's recommendation. I would just use epson black inks in this printer instead of the color ones?  Is there anything special about switching out these inks?
   
  I have been doing wet darkroom work for over 50 years, but digital is a whole new adverture and my eyes are in a glazed over state most of the time. So the simplier the better.
   
  Thanks for providing this mailing lists that seems to help so many people,.
   
  regards,
  ann
   
  l

Paul Roark <paul.roark@...> wrote:
          Chris,

> > ... An ICC in the print
> > preview might be very useful in workflows that use sliders 
> > because they can throw off the ramp.

> So, to be sure I understand, I would use an ICC in this 
> workflow to linearize the system (smooth the ramp and match
> the print to the monitor), while using the sliders 
> to vary the tone?

That is one way that the slider method of control might be used.

However, I'd also recommend you start simple. You could start with a simple
UT-R2 system with no ICCs, sliders or curves. As you're finding out, the
learning curve can be rather long and intimidating for someone just starting
out with digital B&W. I think the positive feedback of loading the ink,
pushing the print button and getting a good print with nothing more is
important, and the UT-R2 is one of the best ways to get to that there.

> > The UT7 is a variable-tone inkset. There is no warm or neutral version.
> > The tone is controlled by the curves -- either PS or QTR. 
> > When I wrote the UT7 Readme file I used the workflow that 
> > converts the grayscale to RGB and then applies the tone curve in PS.
> > If I were to use that inkset today, I'd
> > embed the curves into ICCs, as described in the above URL.

> In this case I would download the curves and use Roy's tool to 
> make an ICC profile for each paper and tone 
> (i.e. cool/warm/sepia) combination I wanted?

Yes. For the 1280 I made a few ICCs in part just to see that the system
would work. For UT7, you'd have to make your own, but the curves are where
the work is, and there are quite a few of them posted on my web pages.

For an explanation of how to embed curves into ICCs, see
http://home1.gte.net/res09aij/Embedding_Photoshop_Curves_in_ICCs.pdf

> In some cases (not all, as you explained in an earlier post) 
> I could use the ICC profile to soft-proof the print in PS as 
> well as inserting it in the "Print with preview" dialog to 
> smooth the ramp and alter the tone of the print?

Yes.

Happy printing.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 



         

 __________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Clarification

2006-07-28 by Greg

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, ann clancy 
<jaclancy1937@...> wrote:
>
> Paul and Chris
>    
>   i have been lurking here for some time, trying to gather 
information for future use.
>    
>   I was very taken with chris' idea of using the inexpenisve r220 
with all black inks as i am only interested in learning about printing 
black and white images.  At this time i just can't justify spending 
money on a 2400 .  Ink use is the issue, not using it and having it dry 
up on me is the major draw back.
>    

You may want to try the less expensive way with an Epson C88 printer, 
then there are only 4 inks to buy.

RE: [Digital BW] Clarification

2006-07-28 by Paul Roark

Ann wrote, in part:

>...
>I was very taken with chris' idea of using the inexpensive r220 
>with all black inks as i am only interested in learning about 
>printing black and white images. At this time i just can't justify 
>spending money on a 2400 . Ink use is the issue, not using 
>it and having it dry up on me is the major draw back.

>...need to keep it simple for sure.
> If i understand Paul's recommendation. I would just use 
>epson black inks in this printer instead of the color ones?

I would not use Epson R220 black ink for 2 reasons.  First, I'm not a fan of
black only (BO) printing.  I prefer smoother prints and a more neutral tone.

Second, even if I were a fan of BO printing, I'd use a pigment ink, not the
220's dye.  Eboni BO on matte paper or MIS PKN on glossy paper is the better
way to go.

Greg wrote, in part:

>You may want to try the less expensive way with an Epson C88 
> printer, then there are only 4 inks to buy.

The C88 is the easiest.  The OEM inks are also pigment. (The black appears
to be a hybrid pigment-dye.)  I don't know how it does in BO mode.  However,
I'll be getting the latest version of the C88 soon to be sure the MIS EZ
inks still are the appropriate mix.  I'll also check the settings, etc.

If you then want to use the C88 for smoother prints or a more neutral tone,
the MIS EZ approach uses the same midtone inks in all 3 color positions.
So, you can buy, for example, just one $18 bottle of midtone ink and fill
all three easy-refill color carts with the same ink.  While the C88 does not
have the light inks of the 220 and, thus, is not quite as smooth, it's still
the champ from the standpoint of easy to use.  My old C86 Readme file is at
http://home1.gte.net/res09aij/C86-EZ-UT-Readme.htm for more information.



Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Move to quarantaine

This moves the raw source file on disk only. The archive index is not changed automatically, so you still need to run a manual refresh afterward.