Digital BW, The Print

Hi all,

I'm new to this group. As short introduction: afters years of 
printmaking and painting I recently returned to my first love in arts: 
photography. I'm doing both digital and analog (view camera), both in 
color and B&W. I'm still struggling with my workflow and, consequently, 
with my digital print quality, but it this is what I plan:
1) revert to a hybrid analog/digital workflow for the view camera 
(digital scanning, editing & printing of analog negatives).
2) setting up a decent, fairly full-fledged, color management system 
(apart from improving print quality I need something anyhow since I do 
my edit work on different locations, light settings and monitors)
3) dedicate a specific printer for B&W prints. Presently I have an 
Epson 2100, that might either remain my color printer or could become 
the B&W printer.

My question to you is on the choice inks and color management sytem. I 
would appreciate a workflow that is (nearly) identical for color and 
B&W. I have done some homework (read all of Clayton's articles, many of 
PAul's, several threads in this group, the MIS site, the QTR site and 
had chats with a GretagMcBeth supplier). But still, I find the topic 
pretty confusing (having conceptual knowledge of color spaces and 
profiles but no hands-on experience with CMS and RIPs so far).

On ink: What I understand is that MIS UT-3D inks are specifically 
designed to work with a CMS. I think I do understand why. I'm happy to 
compromise on the fact that they can not print sepia. So that seems a 
logical choice. Right? Are there dealers in Europe/Netherlands/UK? Does 
anyone know if and when spongeless cartridges for the 2100 become 
available? Any comments on the Lyson Quad Black Variable tone inks that 
I can find more easily here? By the way: I definitely take black-only 
printing serious as well. 

On CMS: I'm considering GretagMacBeth Eye-one Photo. Pretty steep 
price, but if it does the job as I expect I might go for it. Cheaper 
alternative would be a Pantone Huey + Monaco EZcolor. What I'd expect 
is to have the exact same profiling procedure for color and for B&W. So 
no need to adapt printer curves in photoshop or use a RIP. Or do I 
still have to tweak to get the best results? It the latter is the case 
one can question whether to have the burden of BOTH a CMS and curve 
tweaking is attractive? Does a CMS work equally well for UT-3D and 
black-only (I DO understand that one does not actually NEED it, but it 
would keep the workflows similar.).

Apologies for all those questions. Especially since probably all 
fragments have been covered over and over here. But it's difficult to 
see the big picture if you start from the bottom. 

Thanks in advance!

Kind regards,

Joost

Joost,

If you're considering a color management system, I would seriously recommend
that you take a look at the X-Rite Pulse with the OPTIX colorimeter.  It's
half the price of the Gretag system, and it includes everything you need to
make your own profiles.  Also keep in mind that X-Rite recently bought
Gretag.  Gretag announced that they will support their products for another
7 years, but the developments will probably concentrate on X-Rite products.
As far as the Huey/EZcolor combination, I doubt if you will be happy with
these products.  They Huey is a low-end colorimeter, and EZcolor is a
scanner-based color management software that isn't as accurate as a
spectrophotometer-based system like the Eye-One or the Pulse.

If you have any questions about choosing a system, feel free to contact me
directly.


Michael J. Pach
AdventureCam Photo
719-260-6637
mike@...
www.adventurecamphoto.com
AOL IM: mikep1967

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I'm used to the quality I get on Hahnemühle papers from a 2200 printer
typically 8.5x11 through 13x19 I have portfolios in several sizes. 50 50
"black and white" vs. "color".

I just drove 5000 miles in 40 days from Portland Oregon where I've lived for
30 years to NYC where I'm going to live now probably for the decades to
come. I was born here 55 years ago.
I'm living in a motel for a few weeks till I can find an apartment in an
optimal area for work and live..
I'm going over my 3000 image in Adobe Bridge with Photoshop tweaking for
uploading to my website or some kind of a Blog page which I'm kind of
blocked on right now I'm more comfortable with the idea of having a stack of
prints, a portfolio to show for "it". My "body of work" is not the same as a
result of this trip over here but I need results. Results results. I imagine
much of the tweaking "Photoshopping" I do to my final edit will apply both
to what I think of as "printing to monitor" as well as to paper. I like
nicer matte paper. 

My 2200 is in route and had been screwing up on me anyway and problematic as
everyone knows with black and white so hopefully the trip will do it in and
I'll have no problem justifying the current model and even upgrading to the
17x22. Which means my apartment needs to be 18x23.

But right now I just want to knock out some  8.5x11 prints and I'm under the
crazy idea that that can be done with an Epson very compact and cheep yet
pigment carrying printer. Like a c88 +? Which cost less than what I'm used
to spending on a box of paper. Like buying a Polaroid swinger. The
expendables cost more than the non expendables. So you feel like throwing
the non expendable out in that case. Making it expendable after all.

So I'm trying to figure out what nice matte paper I could expect to get good
results with in such a scheme.
Is my scheme viable in terms of what any kind of consensus might be on this
list?  Are ultra cheap printers viable at least for the very short or
limited term? Its of course my impression that they are. And that the
results Id get would not be glaringly insufficient in comparison to my
regular results. In the same stack, box or "book".
And can you use or is it worth it to use some of the better mat papers?
However I'd not mind to use some which I don't have to feed in one at at
time which is wearing on me in my regular printing with the Hahnemühle
smooth photo.

Glad I don't have to lay out trays in my bathtub. My back ain't what it used
to. Be.

Mark Rabiner

I recently bought Colorvision PrintFix Pro suite (PFP101), which 
includes monitor and print hardware calibrators.  I can't compare it to 
the more expensive options, since I don't have them; but I've been very 
pleased with the results so far. I paid about $500 (which included 
overnight shipping) from ProAdvantage. Note that that Amazon listing for 
$499 looks like it's the suite (as it says it includes Spyder2pro 
monitor calibrator), but it really doesn't.

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "AdventureCam 
Photo" <email@...> wrote:
>
> Joost,
> 
> If you're considering a color management system, I would seriously 
recommend
> that you take a look at the X-Rite Pulse with the OPTIX colorimeter.  
It's
> half the price of the Gretag system, and it includes everything you 
need to
> make your own profiles.  Also keep in mind that X-Rite recently bought
> Gretag.  Gretag announced that they will support their products for 
another
> 7 years, but the developments will probably concentrate on X-Rite 
products.

I think I would worry more about the Pulse going away than I would the 
i1 spectro going away. I see many of the products merging in the near 
future, but I won't speculate (since I don't have any concrete leads).

That said I have a Pulse + Optix system, and it is very good (highly 
recommended). The i1 Photo is also highly recommended. Heidelberg 
Prinect Profile Toolbox with the correct hardware would also be 
recommended.

***DO NOT buy the i1 Design!!!!! Yes it is cheaper, but I wouldn't 
claim that it really works (yes I also own that product too).***

The big thing is that color managment for B/W hasn't come as far as CM 
for color has, so having an identical workflow for both color and B/W 
may be more difficult (and expensive) depending on how you look at it, 
and what you want to do.

>... Are ultra cheap printers viable at least for the very short 
> or limited term?

Yes.  I think they even hold up about as well as the more expensive
printers.  If you like the best matte prints, the R220 would have the edge.
It has the light inks, and compared to my C86, the 220 had a better matte
paper dmax.  (The C86 had a better glossy paper dmax.)  I'll have a C88+
soon as a replacement for my old C86, so I'll update this comparison soon. 

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Thank you all for the advice on a CMS. I'll take that into 
consideration.

Most of you did not go into the question if a workflow for B&W would be 
the same or similar to one for color. So may I conclude that the 
implicit answer is "yes"? 

Greg,

You went a bit deeper into that"
> 
> The big thing is that color managment for B/W hasn't come as far as 
CM 
> for color has, so having an identical workflow for both color and B/W 
> may be more difficult (and expensive) depending on how you look at 
it, 
> and what you want to do.

How should I read this? Do (some) color systems just don't work (if so 
which ones?) I could understand this, since calibration algorithms will 
be designed for color and I can imagine that they just break down for 
B&W. Or do they work in principle, but just don't get the ulitmate 
result? If the latter, would you consider the result just "poor" 
or "fair", or "just not the ultimate achievable"?

May I also conclude that the UT-3D ink set is the best (or only?) 
choice in my case?

Thanks again and kind regards?

Joost

Greg...Can you get the pix of the little girl from Beaufort onto a disk?
parents asked Becky ..

Lance Richardson, F.Ph., CPP
Lance Richardson Photography Associates
1600 East Franklin Street   # 100
Chapel Hill, NC   27514
919.942.4044
www.LanceRichardson.com (currently under revision)

National Awards:
Spyder Award Fine Art Division: 2005
Kodak "Gallery " Award: 2005, 2000
FijiFilm "Masterpiece" Award: 2000, 2001
PPA Display Award: 2006,2005, 2004, 2003

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Greg" <dfaprinting@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2006 1:20 PM
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Choice of Ink set and color management system


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "AdventureCam
Photo" <email@...> wrote:
>
> Joost,
>
> If you're considering a color management system, I would seriously
recommend
> that you take a look at the X-Rite Pulse with the OPTIX colorimeter.
It's
> half the price of the Gretag system, and it includes everything you
need to
> make your own profiles.  Also keep in mind that X-Rite recently bought
> Gretag.  Gretag announced that they will support their products for
another
> 7 years, but the developments will probably concentrate on X-Rite
products.

I think I would worry more about the Pulse going away than I would the
i1 spectro going away. I see many of the products merging in the near
future, but I won't speculate (since I don't have any concrete leads).

That said I have a Pulse + Optix system, and it is very good (highly
recommended). The i1 Photo is also highly recommended. Heidelberg
Prinect Profile Toolbox with the correct hardware would also be
recommended.

***DO NOT buy the i1 Design!!!!! Yes it is cheaper, but I wouldn't
claim that it really works (yes I also own that product too).***

The big thing is that color managment for B/W hasn't come as far as CM
for color has, so having an identical workflow for both color and B/W
may be more difficult (and expensive) depending on how you look at it,
and what you want to do.





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B&W workflow would NOT be the same as color.
   
  Tom Baker
  

horstenj <j.h.j.h@...> wrote:
          Thank you all for the advice on a CMS. I'll take that into 
consideration.

Most of you did not go into the question if a workflow for B&W would be 
the same or similar to one for color. So may I conclude that the 
implicit answer is "yes"? 

Greg,

You went a bit deeper into that"
> 
> The big thing is that color managment for B/W hasn't come as far as 
CM 
> for color has, so having an identical workflow for both color and B/W 
> may be more difficult (and expensive) depending on how you look at 
it, 
> and what you want to do.

How should I read this? Do (some) color systems just don't work (if so 
which ones?) I could understand this, since calibration algorithms will 
be designed for color and I can imagine that they just break down for 
B&W. Or do they work in principle, but just don't get the ulitmate 
result? If the latter, would you consider the result just "poor" 
or "fair", or "just not the ultimate achievable"?

May I also conclude that the UT-3D ink set is the best (or only?) 
choice in my case?

Thanks again and kind regards?

Joost



         


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "horstenj"
<j.h.j.h@...> wrote:
>
> Thank you all for the advice on a CMS. I'll take that into 
> consideration.
> 
> Most of you did not go into the question if a workflow for B&W would be 
> the same or similar to one for color. So may I conclude that the 
> implicit answer is "yes"? 

No, the only B&W approach that is systematically similar to color,
that would therefore use the same CM tools, would be printing B&W with
the color inkset with the straightforward color driver.
Most here are using an alternative inkset, an alternative driver (ABW
in the Epson driver qualifies also, it's not a color dirver per se),
or some combination of the above.
Monitor calibration is "CM" and applies to all of course, but a system
primarily for RGB and/or CMYK printer profiles will not likely be
relevant to a B&W printing approach. The exception would be- profilers
and drivers are getting so much better that it is possible to get
decent B&W with the color inks as mentioned above, then your cm system
and process would be the same for both. This method odes have
drawbacks though.
On the other hand, many of the approaches for B&W discussed here do
need a device for linearization, unique non-color profiling, or
calibration of some kind. Then the measurement device that came with
your system could be used, but you'd need to make sure it is supported
 by the B&W system you are using as well.
Given all that, I think the best bang for the buck is the Colorvision
suite others have discussed.
> 
> Greg,
> 
> You went a bit deeper into that"
> > 
> > The big thing is that color managment for B/W hasn't come as far as 
> CM 
> > for color has, so having an identical workflow for both color and B/W 
> > may be more difficult (and expensive) depending on how you look at 
> it, 
> > and what you want to do.
> 
> How should I read this?

Directed at Greg so I'll let him take it, but it's related to the above,
Tyler

Joost,

I have an Epson 2200 for color and just got a cheap R220 to dedicate for B&W.  I got the 
UT-R2 Warm with Eboni Black (for Matte paper).  I think I will also get an Eboni Black cart 
for my 2200 now and use it for BO printing on larger papers.

The only setting I changed for B&W printing was switching to 20% Dot gain.  My first print 
was SO nice.  Very gratifying to get easy good first results.

For fine tuning, Clayton's method of adjusting the back end profile is working well for me.

For Color...check out this article:  http://www.gballard.net/nca.html

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Lance Richardson" 
<lancephoto@...> wrote:
>
> Greg...Can you get the pix of the little girl from Beaufort onto a 
disk?
> parents asked Becky ..
> 
> Lance Richardson, F.Ph., CPP


????? Must have me confused with someone else.

To get a workflow that uses a minimum of color inks, and is fully color 
managed, would be a lot more complex (also expensive). You would need a 
good CMYK RIP (or driver) and a CMYK profiling hardware/software 
package that lets you control the black generation (completely). This 
is best done with multiple black (gray) inks and the CMY. If you have 
enough channels (the DaVinci comes to mind), then you can have 5 
black/gray plus CcMmYRB (or other combinations). Again control of the 
black channel is the key. The more black/gray inks (within reason) the 
better the results. With fewer inks, you need to get creative to get a 
good reproduction in the highlights.

Hi all,

Thank you all for your valuable comments. It's clear to me now that I 
have keep my expectations on the use of a fullfledged color CMS for 
B&W very modest. I'll still consider to set up one for my color work, 
but realize it will take tweaking for the B&W part.

Also the suggestion for the R220 is very useful. Ihad read it before 
but overwhelmed by all other info, it had slipped my mind. Will be a 
good starting point. OK, doesn't do A3 but for that price one can't 
complain.

One (final?) question. On inkset. Apparently the easiest way to start 
is the UT-R2 inkset. On the other the UT-3D is "designed to work with 
a CMS" and the possibility to vary the tone is of course interesting. 
Is using the UT-3D for a novice like myself indeed that much harder? 
What do you suggest? Start with UT-R2 and (most likely?) later switch 
to UT-3D. Or start out with UT-3D right away?

Thanks in advance & kind regards,

Joost