Digital BW, The Print

"if" i understand all that i've read lately, if one wants strictly a 
neutral print, (i am experimenting with Museo Silver Rag , but 
normally have used ESG almost exclusively and UT FSN ink's) the best 
option seems to be UTR2. there are things about the FSN inks that i 
am not completely satisfied with, but have used them for some 
time)  ...... i'm currently using an Epson 2200, i have little to no 
interest in "variable" tones or matte stock.

is that correct??

do i understand correctly that the UTR2 are roughly the same 
densities as the FSN, but maybe the hue or tone is slightly 
different?? if so, which way does the UT-R2 Neutral lean on coated 
stocks? (reddish, greenish??)

i think i read where Paul said they (UTR2) are the EZ N/W equivalent, 
but density wise they are very close to the FS W/N.


is the R2 Photo black (PKN) the same as the current PKN sold? it 
seems to have it's own part # when ordering.


if the above questions/comments are not accurate, what would be the 
best option on MSR to obtain the most "neutral" print possible (very 
subjective question i realize)

i have thought about using the UT-R2 inks and possible using the 
UT3D "Y" in the yellow position to compensate for the reddish/green 
hue depending on the paper being used.


any help is much appreciated


evan

Evan,

>"if" i understand all that i've read lately, if one wants 
>strictly a neutral print, (i am experimenting with Museo 
>Silver Rag , but normally have used ESG almost exclusively 
>and UT FSN ink's) the best option seems to be UTR2. ...

>is that correct??

I prefer the R2 in modern printers and with the current papers I use.

>do i understand correctly that the UTR2 are roughly the 
>same densities as the FSN, but maybe the hue or tone is
> slightly different?? 

The dark grays are essentially the same density.  After that, however, they
diverge.  The FS line follows the PiezoBW densities.  There is a very large
gap between the dark gray ("C") and medium gray ("M").  The M and Y (very
light gray) are quite close in density.  This FS approach worked well in the
older printers (e.g., 3000), but, in my view, it pours on too much light ink
and is not necessary for printers from the 1280 and better.  (In my 7500 I
still have to use the FS-Y very light density, but I have substituted the R2
neutrals for the other FS neutrals that were used.)

The R2 uses a gap between the dark gray and light gray (which is closer to
the FS medium density) that is consistent with what the Epson driver was
designed for.  It does not use the super-light FS-Y density.  The R2
arrangement is such that the printers produce very nice prints with the
Epson driver set to Color Controls = 0 and no curves.   

The R2 neutral tones, especially the dark gray (C), are more to the red side
compared to the UT-FSN inks.  The UT-FS-N was mixed when some of the more
popular glossy papers printed very magenta shadows.  The more modern glossy
papers, in comparison, print with more of a greenish tint -- and I dislike
green in my B&W prints.

As with the EZ inks, my preference is for R2 "neutral" (which is somewhat
cool on many papers) in the C & M channels, and warm in the Y position.
Frankly, I prefer EZ-Warm in that Y position over the R2W-Y.  The R2 light
inks are all the same density just for simplicity.  However, this makes the
warm Y a bit weaker than I like for the purposes of profiling papers.  With
a warm EZ Y in an otherwise "neutral" set, I'm able to get quite good tonal
distributions on most of that papers I use.

>is the R2 Photo black (PKN) the same as the current PKN sold? 
>it seems to have its own part # when ordering.

The R2 PKN is specific to the R200/220.  The newer Epson printers are
tending to need different PKs to optimize their dmaxs.  The trend is to
lower load Pk inks.

>... what would be the best option on MSR to obtain the most
> "neutral" print possible (very subjective question i realize)

One of the variables is whether you're into profiling your own inksets.  If
you're comfortable with manual profiling, then the UT-3D can give the best
control.  If you'd rather have an easier way to get to quite neutral, then
the R2 neutral, possibly with warm ink in the yellow spot, would be what I'd
recommend.  The 3D LK is a neutralized (slightly warm) LK that would be most
compatible with an R2 approach.  I have not tried the R2 inks in the 2200,
but they should work very well.  I'd try both the neutral and warm Yellows
to see which works better.

Of course, the UT7 inkset is also an option.  For this, I'd pull the sepia
out and put in another carbon ink.  I'd then re-do the curves a bit to use
that new light carbon.  The point here is that if one does not use the
sepia, then it's best removed so that the printer uses all its inks for both
smoothness and keeping the yellow jet in good condition.  If I wanted more
control over warm prints, I'd use LC (standard light carbon = 50% LK) + 4%
red in the Y position.  This makes a very nice warm ink (hue = 45).


>i have thought about using the UT-R2 inks and possible using the 
>UT3D "Y" in the yellow position to compensate for the reddish/green 
>hue depending on the paper being used.

I think the 3D-Y would throw the R2 hue too far to the red/magenta end.  If
you have a lot of FSN left, this might be a way to take care of any
un-wanted greenish shadows, however.

Hope this helps.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" 

So ......if i read this correctly

the UT-R2 C & M are the same density
and the Lc, Lm, and Y  are the same density as well
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint/messag
e/78527

 on Muse Silver Rag, you feel that ............
1. UT-3D would give the most "relatively" neutral prints (i assume 
relative to the paper)???
2. UT-R2 with EZ/W in the "Y" position would be next ??? (as the R2N 
may print a little cool)

i have no issue with profiling my own inks so i'm up to challenge.

thanks for all the help



> 
> I prefer the R2 in modern printers and with the current papers I 
use.

> 
> The dark grays are essentially the same density.  After that, 
however, they
> diverge.  The FS line follows the PiezoBW densities.  There is a 
very large
> gap between the dark gray ("C") and medium gray ("M").  The M and Y 
(very
> light gray) are quite close in density.  This FS approach worked 
well in the
> older printers (e.g., 3000), but, in my view, it pours on too much 
light ink
> and is not necessary for printers from the 1280 and better.  (In my 
7500 I
> still have to use the FS-Y very light density, but I have 
substituted the R2
> neutrals for the other FS neutrals that were used.)
> 
> The R2 uses a gap between the dark gray and light gray (which is 
closer to
> the FS medium density) that is consistent with what the Epson 
driver was
> designed for.  It does not use the super-light FS-Y density.  The R2
> arrangement is such that the printers produce very nice prints with 
the
> Epson driver set to Color Controls = 0 and no curves.   
> 
> The R2 neutral tones, especially the dark gray (C), are more to the 
red side
> compared to the UT-FSN inks.  The UT-FS-N was mixed when some of 
the more
> popular glossy papers printed very magenta shadows.  The more 
modern glossy
> papers, in comparison, print with more of a greenish tint -- and I 
dislike
> green in my B&W prints.
> 
> As with the EZ inks, my preference is for R2 "neutral" (which is 
somewhat
> cool on many papers) in the C & M channels, and warm in the Y 
position.
> Frankly, I prefer EZ-Warm in that Y position over the R2W-Y.  The 
R2 light
> inks are all the same density just for simplicity.  However, this 
makes the
> warm Y a bit weaker than I like for the purposes of profiling 
papers.  With
> a warm EZ Y in an otherwise "neutral" set, I'm able to get quite 
good tonal
> distributions on most of that papers I use.
> 
> The R2 PKN is specific to the R200/220.  The newer Epson printers 
are
> tending to need different PKs to optimize their dmaxs.  The trend 
is to
> lower load Pk inks.

> 
> One of the variables is whether you're into profiling your own 
inksets.  If
> you're comfortable with manual profiling, then the UT-3D can give 
the best
> control.  If you'd rather have an easier way to get to quite 
neutral, then
> the R2 neutral, possibly with warm ink in the yellow spot, would be 
what I'd
> recommend.  The 3D LK is a neutralized (slightly warm) LK that 
would be most
> compatible with an R2 approach.  I have not tried the R2 inks in 
the 2200,
> but they should work very well.  I'd try both the neutral and warm 
Yellows
> to see which works better.
> 
> Of course, the UT7 inkset is also an option.  For this, I'd pull 
the sepia
> out and put in another carbon ink.  I'd then re-do the curves a bit 
to use
> that new light carbon.  The point here is that if one does not use 
the
> sepia, then it's best removed so that the printer uses all its inks 
for both
> smoothness and keeping the yellow jet in good condition.  If I 
wanted more
> control over warm prints, I'd use LC (standard light carbon = 50% 
LK) + 4%
> red in the Y position.  This makes a very nice warm ink (hue = 45).
> 
> 
> I think the 3D-Y would throw the R2 hue too far to the red/magenta 
end.  If

> you have a lot of FSN left, this might be a way to take care of any
> un-wanted greenish shadows, however.
> 
> Hope this helps.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
>

...
>on Muse Silver Rag, you feel that ............
>1. UT-3D would give the most "relatively" neutral prints 
>(i assume relative to the paper)???

See http://home1.gte.net/res09aij/3D-Comparison.pdf 
This shows the tonal distributions of R2 and 3D.  I profiled the 3D inkset
to have tones equal to the paper white, until the deep shadows, where I
prefer a cool black.  So, the 3D profiles I make tend to go for that.  There
is carbon in the inkset that could have made the black warmer also.  It
really is a question of how one profiles the inkset.  Of the dedicated B&W
carbon-based inksets, the 3D is the only one that gives fine control of both
the Lab A and B axes.  So, if one is so inclined, the UT-3D inkset can be
very accurately profiled.  The flip side is that the R2 or the ABW of the
2400 are simple and easier to deal with for those who do not do their own
profiling and where I have not yet made a profile.


>2. UT-R2 with EZ/W in the "Y" position would be next ??? 
>(as the R2N may print a little cool)

With the EZ and R2 inksets, the neutral inks are slightly cool on most
papers (as are most brightened papers).  Because the R2-N is the coolest the
inkset can go and many like that tone, it seems appropriate.  I, however,
prefer non-brightened paper, which is warmer.  I also like even with these
inksets the ability to more accurately profile them.  So, I generally put an
EZ-Warm in the Y position.  It not only makes the tonal distributions closer
to what I like on my papers, but it also makes these inksets into de facto
variable-tone inksets, to a limited degree.  (Clayton also has an approach
that puts warm inks in one color channel to give limited variable-tone
control.)

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com