Digital BW, The Print

I have an Epson 4000Pro with UT7 and think of switching back to colour.
My only choice beside Epson Inks is Mispro.
I would like to know if there is a real improvment with K3.
In this case I would have to sell it and get a new printer such as the 
new 3800 or even another brand.

Anybody had the chance to compare and tell if it is worth ?

Thanks
Michel

I've used MIS PRO in a 1280 and Epson K3 and MIS K4 in a 2400. I can
see no improvement in the K3 / K4 once dialed in. Now you will need to
use custom profiles with the MIS PRO but it seems to be just as good
an inkset as K3 / K4. 

Bob Michaels

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "lours51"
<sinwen@...> wrote:

>
> I have an Epson 4000Pro with UT7 and think of switching back to colour.
> My only choice beside Epson Inks is Mispro.
> I would like to know if there is a real improvment with K3.
> In this case I would have to sell it and get a new printer such as the 
> new 3800 or even another brand.
> 
> Anybody had the chance to compare and tell if it is worth ?
> 
> Thanks
> Michel
>

Bob,

That you find no particular difference between K3 and Mis K4, I am not really surprised, but I was wondering between Mis pro and K3 with the latest ink generation.
Your answer is clear "just as good", at least this means if there is any difference it is not spectacular and not worth switching to a new printer.
I make all my profiles with Eye1.

Many thanks for your answer
Michel

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Can these inksets and existing RIPs be used with the new wide-format
printer offerings from Canon or HP?  The built-in profiling of the new
HP printers probably would be useless with custom inksets.  But,
wouldn't these new great printers be that much better for B&W prints
if color inks are replaced by greys?

>Can these inksets ... be used with the new wide-format
>printer offerings from Canon or HP? ...

I would not risk one of these new machines on such an experiment.  Let the
ink sellers clearly take a position first.

The thermal heads have historically been much more sensitive to viscosity.
The reason HP and Canon did not have desktop pigment printers in the past
was, I'm told, due to the thermal head being unable to pump high viscosity
inks through small holes.  They'd overheat.  Pigment inks must be higher
viscosity to hold the pigments in suspension.

It appears someone made a major advance in the thermal head technology.  The
fact that Canon and HP announce their desktop pigment printers at the same
time suggests this was a third party -- luckily for us consumers.  However,
there are still suggestions that the thermal heads are more sensitive to
viscosity than the Epson piezo head.  As such, existing inks may exceed
their limits and cause overheating.

There is also the possibility that part of the advance is in the ability of
pigment inks to be made with lower viscosity.  If the advance is, in part,
due to lower viscosity pigment inks, it raises the question of whether they
are achieving this through smaller size particles.  If so, the longevity
will be affected.

Yesterday I received some Canon test patches for fade testing.  I'll make
some equivalent patches with MIS inks ASAP and get a fade test going.

I assume in a few months the third party ink sellers will announce inks for
the new machines, but they may require different viscosities than the inks
made for the Epson printers.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Paul:
Some of your assumptions regarding pigmented inks for Thermal printers
are just plain wrong!

HP has been using pigmented black ink in most of their desktop
printers for a long time!HP also had pigmented ink available for their
old classic HP5000 printer 8 years ago, but as a friend who had the
5000 commented, who wants to print with "prefaded" inks? Back then,
the pigmented inks with wider gammut were not available.

Yes, the thermal head technology requires less viscous ink to work
properly, but that is not the reason the other manufacturers have not
switched previously. (and yes, thermal heads are much more sensity to
viscosity/surface tension mismatches) Probably the main reason has
been the lack of pigments with sufficient gammut.

Also, pigmented inks don't run nearly as "cleanly" as dye inks,
requiring much more maintaince. It could  be that HP and Canon have
been resolving these issues.

From what I've read about the new HP "Z" series printers, sounds like
they will consume much less ink in cleaning cycles compared to the
Epsons. They also have non-printing nozzle detection, and built-in
auto-profiling of papers using a colorimeter device. 


All-in-all, it's great when printer manufacturers compete for our
market. Keeps everyone on their toes!

John Nollendorfs
  
--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@...m, "Paul Roark"
<paul.roark@...> wrote:
>
> 
> >Can these inksets ... be used with the new wide-format
> >printer offerings from Canon or HP? ...
> 
> I would not risk one of these new machines on such an experiment. 
Let the
> ink sellers clearly take a position first.
> 
> The thermal heads have historically been much more sensitive to
viscosity.
> The reason HP and Canon did not have desktop pigment printers in the
past
> was, I'm told, due to the thermal head being unable to pump high
viscosity
> inks through small holes.  They'd overheat.  Pigment inks must be higher
> viscosity to hold the pigments in suspension.
> 
> It appears someone made a major advance in the thermal head
technology.  The
> fact that Canon and HP announce their desktop pigment printers at
the same
> time suggests this was a third party -- luckily for us consumers. 
However,
> there are still suggestions that the thermal heads are more sensitive to
> viscosity than the Epson piezo head.  As such, existing inks may exceed
> their limits and cause overheating.
> 
> There is also the possibility that part of the advance is in the
ability of
> pigment inks to be made with lower viscosity.  If the advance is, in
part,
> due to lower viscosity pigment inks, it raises the question of
whether they
> are achieving this through smaller size particles.  If so, the longevity
> will be affected.
> 
> Yesterday I received some Canon test patches for fade testing.  I'll
make
> some equivalent patches with MIS inks ASAP and get a fade test going.
> 
> I assume in a few months the third party ink sellers will announce
inks for
> the new machines, but they may require different viscosities than
the inks

> made for the Epson printers.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
>

John  -
   
  Which of Pauls's 'assumptions' was wrong?  Looks like you were agreeing with him.
   
  Tom Baker

sinar001 <jnolly@...> wrote:
          Paul:
Some of your assumptions regarding pigmented inks for Thermal printers
are just plain wrong!

HP has been using pigmented black ink in most of their desktop
printers for a long time!HP also had pigmented ink available for their
old classic HP5000 printer 8 years ago, but as a friend who had the
5000 commented, who wants to print with "prefaded" inks? Back then,
the pigmented inks with wider gammut were not available.

Yes, the thermal head technology requires less viscous ink to work
properly, but that is not the reason the other manufacturers have not
switched previously. (and yes, thermal heads are much more sensity to
viscosity/surface tension mismatches) Probably the main reason has
been the lack of pigments with sufficient gammut.

Also, pigmented inks don't run nearly as "cleanly" as dye inks,
requiring much more maintaince. It could be that HP and Canon have
been resolving these issues.

From what I've read about the new HP "Z" series printers, sounds like
they will consume much less ink in cleaning cycles compared to the
Epsons. They also have non-printing nozzle detection, and built-in
auto-profiling of papers using a colorimeter device. 

All-in-all, it's great when printer manufacturers compete for our
market. Keeps everyone on their toes!

John Nollendorfs

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark"
<paul.roark@...> wrote:
>
> 
> >Can these inksets ... be used with the new wide-format
> >printer offerings from Canon or HP? ...
> 
> I would not risk one of these new machines on such an experiment. 
Let the
> ink sellers clearly take a position first.
> 
> The thermal heads have historically been much more sensitive to
viscosity.
> The reason HP and Canon did not have desktop pigment printers in the
past
> was, I'm told, due to the thermal head being unable to pump high
viscosity
> inks through small holes. They'd overheat. Pigment inks must be higher
> viscosity to hold the pigments in suspension.
> 
> It appears someone made a major advance in the thermal head
technology. The
> fact that Canon and HP announce their desktop pigment printers at
the same
> time suggests this was a third party -- luckily for us consumers. 
However,
> there are still suggestions that the thermal heads are more sensitive to
> viscosity than the Epson piezo head. As such, existing inks may exceed
> their limits and cause overheating.
> 
> There is also the possibility that part of the advance is in the
ability of
> pigment inks to be made with lower viscosity. If the advance is, in
part,
> due to lower viscosity pigment inks, it raises the question of
whether they
> are achieving this through smaller size particles. If so, the longevity
> will be affected.
> 
> Yesterday I received some Canon test patches for fade testing. I'll
make
> some equivalent patches with MIS inks ASAP and get a fade test going.
> 
> I assume in a few months the third party ink sellers will announce
inks for
> the new machines, but they may require different viscosities than
the inks
> made for the Epson printers.
> 
> Paul
> www.PaulRoark.com
>



         


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

John,

>Paul:
>Some of your assumptions regarding pigmented inks for Thermal printers
>are just plain wrong!

I'm just passing on what I've heard from people closer to the ink business
than I am.

>HP has been using pigmented black ink in most of their desktop
>printers for a long time!

I believe many "dye" printers use a hybrid black ink with a low load. Low
load inks can apparently be kept in suspension with a lower viscosity base.


>HP also had pigmented ink available for their
>old classic HP5000 printer 8 years ago,

And do you now what the dot size was?  I believe these printers had large
dots that would be inappropriate for fine art.

> but as a friend who had the
>5000 commented, who wants to print with "prefaded" inks? Back then,
>the pigmented inks with wider gammut were not available.

Other media had high gamut pigments.  Why do you think the inkjet industry
did not?  

>Yes, the thermal head technology requires less viscous ink to work
>properly, but that is not the reason the other manufacturers have not
>switched previously. (and yes, thermal heads are much more sensity to
>viscosity/surface tension mismatches) 

>Probably the main reason has been the lack of pigments with
> sufficient gammut.

John, even I have used watercolor pigments that are not used by the inkjet
industry to print through an inkjet printer.  I believe there have been many
high gamut, interesting pigments out there that could have been used for
inkjets as soon as the inkjet printer got good enough to make it worth
while.

My understanding of the large format HP printers is that they used large
pigments for signage longevity. 

>Also, pigmented inks don't run nearly as "cleanly" as dye inks,
>requiring much more maintaince.

True, we are all fairly aware of these problems.

>It could be that HP and Canon have been resolving these issues.

I'm sure they are all working on these problems.

>From what I've read about the new HP "Z" series printers, sounds like
>they will consume much less ink in cleaning cycles compared to the
>Epsons. They also have non-printing nozzle detection, and built-in
>auto-profiling of papers using a colorimeter device.

Yes, the Canon apparently has automatic detection of defective nozzles as
well.  I understand they have a huge number of nozzles and enough redundancy
to cover for the defective ones.

I hope this is all correct.

I'm always inclined to take sales hype with a grain of salt, but the next
year ought to be interesting as we see what these new machines can really
do.

>All-in-all, it's great when printer manufacturers compete for our
>market. Keeps everyone on their toes!

That we can surely agree on.  

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

That the reason for the delay in coming out with pigmented inks on the
thermal printers was finding a solution to the lower viscosity.

Also that HP has waited until now for a pigmented printer--they have
had thermal pigmented printers for a long time.

John Nollendorfs

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Tom Baker
<tbaker1328@...> wrote:
>
> John  -
>    
>   Which of Pauls's 'assumptions' was wrong?  Looks like you were
agreeing with him.
>    
>   Tom Baker
> 
> sinar001 <jnolly@...> wrote:
>           Paul:
> Some of your assumptions regarding pigmented inks for Thermal printers
> are just plain wrong!
> 
> HP has been using pigmented black ink in most of their desktop
> printers for a long time!HP also had pigmented ink available for their
> old classic HP5000 printer 8 years ago, but as a friend who had the
> 5000 commented, who wants to print with "prefaded" inks? Back then,
> the pigmented inks with wider gammut were not available.
> 
> Yes, the thermal head technology requires less viscous ink to work
> properly, but that is not the reason the other manufacturers have not
> switched previously. (and yes, thermal heads are much more sensity to
> viscosity/surface tension mismatches) Probably the main reason has
> been the lack of pigments with sufficient gammut.
> 
> Also, pigmented inks don't run nearly as "cleanly" as dye inks,
> requiring much more maintaince. It could be that HP and Canon have
> been resolving these issues.
> 
> From what I've read about the new HP "Z" series printers, sounds like
> they will consume much less ink in cleaning cycles compared to the
> Epsons. They also have non-printing nozzle detection, and built-in
> auto-profiling of papers using a colorimeter device. 
> 
> All-in-all, it's great when printer manufacturers compete for our
> market. Keeps everyone on their toes!
> 
> John Nollendorfs
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark"
> <paul.roark@> wrote:
> >
> > 
> > >Can these inksets ... be used with the new wide-format
> > >printer offerings from Canon or HP? ...
> > 
> > I would not risk one of these new machines on such an experiment. 
> Let the
> > ink sellers clearly take a position first.
> > 
> > The thermal heads have historically been much more sensitive to
> viscosity.
> > The reason HP and Canon did not have desktop pigment printers in the
> past
> > was, I'm told, due to the thermal head being unable to pump high
> viscosity
> > inks through small holes. They'd overheat. Pigment inks must be higher
> > viscosity to hold the pigments in suspension.
> > 
> > It appears someone made a major advance in the thermal head
> technology. The
> > fact that Canon and HP announce their desktop pigment printers at
> the same
> > time suggests this was a third party -- luckily for us consumers. 
> However,
> > there are still suggestions that the thermal heads are more
sensitive to
> > viscosity than the Epson piezo head. As such, existing inks may exceed
> > their limits and cause overheating.
> > 
> > There is also the possibility that part of the advance is in the
> ability of
> > pigment inks to be made with lower viscosity. If the advance is, in
> part,
> > due to lower viscosity pigment inks, it raises the question of
> whether they
> > are achieving this through smaller size particles. If so, the
longevity

> > will be affected.
> > 
> > Yesterday I received some Canon test patches for fade testing. I'll
> make
> > some equivalent patches with MIS inks ASAP and get a fade test going.
> > 
> > I assume in a few months the third party ink sellers will announce
> inks for
> > the new machines, but they may require different viscosities than
> the inks
> > made for the Epson printers.
> > 
> > Paul
> > www.PaulRoark.com
> >
> 
> 
> 
>          
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

What with new inkjet printer offerings from HP and Canon and eventual 
announcements of best yet-to-come from Epson, eBay will be flooded with 
9800s in about 6 months.  Could you get a better print, as compared to 
using a singe printer, if you printed the K of the CMYK on the Epson 
using a custom inkset then printed the color components on the new 12-
ink machines?  Could registration issues be resolved and can inksets be 
mix and matched?

As someone who did actually run prints through two Epson printers, maybe 
I can shed some light on it:

I did my B&W in a dedicated 1160, then added color in a 1200. It was 
possible to get accurate registration about once in 3 to 5 tries and 
using registration guides printed along with the first pass, I wasted 
maybe 1/2 to 2/3s of the paper. It was very tedious and the paper 
handling was excessive, somewhat degrading the whole look of the 
finished sheet.

In the end, I decided it wasn't worth the effort, but it is possible, if 
you can stand the process.

Frank

"elauq" elauq@... 
<mailto:elauq@...?Subject=%20Re%3A%20MisPro%20%20vs%20%20K3>   
elauq <http://profiles.yahoo.com/elauq>Thu Sep 28, 2006 5:47 pm (PST) wrote:

What with new inkjet printer offerings from HP and Canon and eventual
announcements of best yet-to-come from Epson, eBay will be flooded with
9800s in about 6 months. Could you get a better print, as compared to
using a singe printer, if you printed the K of the CMYK on the Epson
using a custom inkset then printed the color components on the new 12-
ink machines? Could registration issues be resolved and can inksets be
mix and matched?

> As someone who did actually run prints through two Epson printers...
>It was very tedious and the paper 
> handling was excessive, somewhat degrading the whole look of the 
> finished sheet.

Even when the registration was right on, the final print didn't look
right?

It was all the handling - the paper gets soggy when passed through the 
printer repeatedly trying to get the registration marks aligned for the 
second pass.

Frank

 >> As someone who did actually run prints through two Epson printers...
 >>It was very tedious and the paper
 >>handling was excessive, somewhat degrading the whole look of the
 >> finished sheet.

 >Even when the registration was right on, the final print didn't look
 >right?