Digital BW, The Print

Hello,

I was wondering if anyone has received the sepia to neutral VM inks from 
MIS yet?  If so, what exactly did you order, and do they work with the 
"original" VM curves on MIS's website?  

Heath Sandall

> 
> I was wondering if anyone has received the sepia to neutral VM inks 
from 
> MIS yet?  If so, what exactly did you order, and do they work with 
the 
> "original" VM curves on MIS's website?  
> 
Yes, I ordered and have received them but very unfortunately my 
new/used 1160 packed up just prior to installing the CIS (I still 
have the carts un-punctured and filled with ink and the tubes going 
off to the bottles)waiting patiently for the issues to be resolved.

They are meant to work with Paul's VM curves - except instead of 
blue/cool you'll be getting sepia/warm.
If I dont resolve the printer problems with Epson I'll be getting rid 
of the 1160 and selling off the CIS and Sepia>Neutral inkset(unused).
frankg

Just what is the advantage of the Sepia to Neutral VM inks from MIS? 
I am using the regular set and don't see any need to change....unless 
this has a stronger black.

Bill

>Hello,
>
>I was wondering if anyone has received the sepia to neutral VM inks from
>MIS yet?  If so, what exactly did you order, and do they work with the
>"original" VM curves on MIS's website? 
>
>Heath Sandall
>
>
>
>
>Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls 
>and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
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>various resources on the homepage.
>
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-- 
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
b i l l  a g e e  s t u d i o
c a p i s t r a n o  b e a c h  c a l i f o r n i a

billagee@...
http://www.redsilver.com
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

on 1/19/02 10:22 PM, Bill Agee wrote:

> Just what is the advantage of the Sepia to Neutral VM inks from MIS?
> I am using the regular set and don't see any need to change....unless
> this has a stronger black.

Whereas reg VM covers the hues of slightly warm through neutral to slightly
cool, the sepia mix should go from very warm through neutral, with no cool.

So, it should have the same black with a stronger brown.

Todd

Heath wrote:

>I was wondering if anyone has received the sepia to neutral VM inks from
>MIS yet?  If so, what exactly did you order, and do they work with the
>"original" VM curves on MIS's website?

MIS might mix the neutral ink this weekend.  The sepia VM that MIS has
shipped so far uses the standard MIS VM warm base.

The VM-Sepia-Neutral will use the same curves as the standard VM inkset, but
just covers a different range.  Quite a few have expressed interest in more
warmth and sepia tones.  So, this it is.  For my uses -- landscapes and
reproductions of old photos -- I've found the mix to be very useful.

Also, the neutral ink is for an FS-Neutral.  So, Piezo users will have a
truly neutral ink mix.

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com

Thanks, Todd.  I appreciate the explanation.  Somehow the information 
got by me.   I think the brown in the regular line of VM is very nice 
warm....not with the more yellow quality of Kodak Sepia toner, but 
close to Platinum prints.

Bill

>on 1/19/02 10:22 PM, Bill Agee wrote:
>
>>  Just what is the advantage of the Sepia to Neutral VM inks from MIS?
>>  I am using the regular set and don't see any need to change....unless
>>  this has a stronger black.
>
>Whereas reg VM covers the hues of slightly warm through neutral to slightly
>cool, the sepia mix should go from very warm through neutral, with no cool.
>
>So, it should have the same black with a stronger brown.
>
>Todd
>

-- 
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
b i l l  a g e e  s t u d i o
c a p i s t r a n o  b e a c h  c a l i f o r n i a

billagee@...
http://www.redsilver.com
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

In a message dated 1/19/02 10:38:51 PM, tflash@... writes:

<< > Just what is the advantage of the Sepia to Neutral VM inks from MIS?
> I am using the regular set and don't see any need to change....unless
> this has a stronger black. >>

I'm curious whether the greenish cast in tungsten that I find with some VM 
prints will be greatly reduced with the VM Sepia to Neutral.

Thanks,

Andy Darlow

Photography, Digital Print Consulting and Custom Editions
Andrew Darlow Images International
www.andydarlow.com
andy@...

on 1/19/02 11:08 PM, Paul Roark wrote:

> MIS might mix the neutral ink this weekend.  The sepia VM that MIS has
> shipped so far uses the standard MIS VM warm base.
> 
> The VM-Sepia-Neutral will use the same curves as the standard VM inkset, but
> just covers a different range.  Quite a few have expressed interest in more
> warmth and sepia tones.  So, this it is.  For my uses -- landscapes and
> reproductions of old photos -- I've found the mix to be very useful.
> 
> Also, the neutral ink is for an FS-Neutral.  So, Piezo users will have a
> truly neutral ink mix.

Paul,

Which of the inksets/workflows you've formulated do you believe produces the
best neutral prints? Which neutral fade tests best. What color fade tests
best of all the VM choices?

Thanks,
Todd

> In a message dated 1/19/02 10:38:51 PM, tflash@... writes:
> 
> << > Just what is the advantage of the Sepia to Neutral VM inks from MIS?
>> I am using the regular set and don't see any need to change....unless
>> this has a stronger black. >>


I didn't write that.

Todd

Andy,

You wrote:

>I'm curious whether the greenish cast in tungsten that I find with some VM
>prints will be greatly reduced with the VM Sepia to Neutral.

The MIS VM inkset is rather simple -- just the MIS standard quads with a
blue (equal parts cyan pigment and magenta pigment, cut with MIS "25") added
via the toner.

The new neutral base is not so simple.  With an X-Rite spectrophotometer I
used my lightly-selenium-toned Kodak Polymax Fine Art silver prints as a
reference.

You are right that the current MIS VM has a touch of green in it.  Not that
any was added, but that is what the MIS standard quads have as their native
color.

And, the selenium toning does add a touch of magenta to silver prints.  So,
there is a coloration difference.  It is subtle, but it is there.  Some will
see it, most probably will not.

As best I can tell, the impression of green is caused by the magenta reading
being below the average of the cyan and yellow.  With the MIS VM inks, the
magenta readings with the X-Rite are slightly below that line.  With the new
neutral and with various concentrations of sepia toner added, the magenta
reading stays above that average line.

In terms of coolness, the neutral ink base is between the "nc" and "mw"
curves.  A typical midtone reading is c = 0.60, m = 0.60, y = 0.59.  Of
course, I have not seen a production sample, so ....

Tone preferences are so subjective that it's impossible to say one inkset is
better than the other.  For the real cold-tone people, I think staying with
the standard MIS VM inkset is the way to go.  This new inkset will just give
more variety, especially for the Piezo users, who will get a neutral ink
(which can be warmed up by adding some standard FS ink to the bottles), and
those who like sepia or very warm prints will be able to use the VM-sepia
toner to get tones they might prefer.

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com

Todd,

You wrote:

>Which of the inksets/workflows you've formulated do you believe produces
the
>best neutral prints?

It's too subjective to say.

> Which neutral fade tests best.

The new neutral ink is the most fade resistant.

>What color fade tests best of all the VM choices?

The colder ones seem to do the best.

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com
___________________________

on 1/19/02 11:08 PM, Paul Roark wrote:

> MIS might mix the neutral ink this weekend.  The sepia VM that MIS has
> shipped so far uses the standard MIS VM warm base.
>
> The VM-Sepia-Neutral will use the same curves as the standard VM inkset,
but
> just covers a different range.  Quite a few have expressed interest in
more

> warmth and sepia tones.  So, this it is.  For my uses -- landscapes and
> reproductions of old photos -- I've found the mix to be very useful.
>
> Also, the neutral ink is for an FS-Neutral.  So, Piezo users will have a
> truly neutral ink mix.

on 1/20/02 1:48 AM, Paul Roark wrote:

>> Which neutral fade tests best.
> 
> The new neutral ink is the most fade resistant.


Sorry to be dense Paul, but is that the Neutral FS set, or a fade resistant
set (as I think I've heard you refer to it in the past) still being worked
on, or the neutral curve of the new sepia-neutral set?

Thanks again,
Todd

Todd,

The new neutral MIS ink fade tests the best.

>... is that the Neutral FS set, or a fade resistant
>set (as I think I've heard you refer to it in the past) still being worked
>on, or the neutral curve of the new sepia-neutral set?

There is going to be a single neutral base ink.  It'll be used in the FS-N
and in the VM-Sepia-Neutral.  It fades less and warms very little on EAM,
other papers may vary.  In short, this is the result of my efforts to date
on the warming.  The tests look so good that there is no point in making a
neutral ink that warm-shifts the way current quads do.  I hope this ink is a
major step toward solving what I consider a major defect in the current B&W
printing materials.

As I find other ways to improve things, they'll probably be incorporated
incrementally in this inkset.

Paul
http://www.PaulRoark.com

Will the new sepia-VM be available in cartridges or only in bottles for
use with a CIS?
Peter Lindman

Paul Roark wrote:

> 
> Heath wrote:
> 
> >I was wondering if anyone has received the sepia to neutral VM inks
> from
> >MIS yet?  If so, what exactly did you order, and do they work with
> the
> >"original" VM curves on MIS's website?
> 
> MIS might mix the neutral ink this weekend.  The sepia VM that MIS has
> shipped so far uses the standard MIS VM warm base.
> 
> The VM-Sepia-Neutral will use the same curves as the standard VM
> inkset, but
> just covers a different range.  Quite a few have expressed interest in
> more
> warmth and sepia tones.  So, this it is.  For my uses -- landscapes
> and
> reproductions of old photos -- I've found the mix to be very useful.
> 
> Also, the neutral ink is for an FS-Neutral.  So, Piezo users will have
> a
> truly neutral ink mix.
> 
> Paul
> http://www.PaulRoark.com
> 
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No advantage. You just can't get cold tone prints with those inks. I
much prefer the cold tones, so I like the VM inks.

Jerry



Bill Agee wrote:

> 
> Just what is the advantage of the Sepia to Neutral VM inks from MIS?
> I am using the regular set and don't see any need to change....unless
> this has a stronger black.
> 
> Bill
> 
> >Hello,
> >
> >I was wondering if anyone has received the sepia to neutral VM inks from
> >MIS yet?  If so, what exactly did you order, and do they work with the
> >"original" VM curves on MIS's website?
> >
> >Heath Sandall
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls
> >and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> >
> >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> >
> >Please follow these basic guidelines:
> >- Include your full name with your message.
> >- Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> >- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages
> >to keep them short.
> >- As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> >- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> >- Complete your Yahoo profile.
> >- Before posting a question, search the message archives and the
> >various resources on the homepage.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> 
> --
> ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
> b i l l  a g e e  s t u d i o
> c a p i s t r a n o  b e a c h  c a l i f o r n i a
> 
> billagee@...
> http://www.redsilver.com
> :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
> 
> Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
> 
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
> 
> Please follow these basic guidelines:
> - Include your full name with your message.
> - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
> - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
> - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
> - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
> - Complete your Yahoo profile.
> - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various resources on the homepage.
> 
> 
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Peter,

>Will the new sepia-VM be available in cartridges or only in bottles for
>use with a CIS?

I suspect MIS will have all in bottles only at first.  I think they're a bit
overwhelmed with the inventory requirements of having all in carts.

People can, of course, load carts.  The new vacuum loading technique I've
been using seems to work very well.

Paul

_______________________________


Paul Roark wrote:

>
> Heath wrote:
>
> >I was wondering if anyone has received the sepia to neutral VM inks
> from
> >MIS yet?  If so, what exactly did you order, and do they work with
> the
> >"original" VM curves on MIS's website?
>
> MIS might mix the neutral ink this weekend.  The sepia VM that MIS has
> shipped so far uses the standard MIS VM warm base.
>
> The VM-Sepia-Neutral will use the same curves as the standard VM
> inkset, but
> just covers a different range.  Quite a few have expressed interest in
> more
> warmth and sepia tones.  So, this it is.  For my uses -- landscapes
> and
> reproductions of old photos -- I've found the mix to be very useful.
>
> Also, the neutral ink is for an FS-Neutral.  So, Piezo users will have
> a
> truly neutral ink mix.
>
> Paul
> http://www.PaulRoark.com

Paul-

I'm not really clear on what we will be ordering from MIS. Is it 
a "one bottle" substitution for the FS neutral? What about the VM 
sepia-neutral?

BTW, I saw a few posts last night wherein people said they ordered 
the new inks, but the MIS site has no info at all about them?

You couldn't have a prettier day in Monterey...we should BOTH be 
outside shooting pictures, not screwing around on our computers <g>

Tom O'Connell

TomOC@...
www.thomasoconnell.com

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Paul Roark" 
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> Peter,
> 
> >Will the new sepia-VM be available in cartridges or only in 
bottles for
> >use with a CIS?
> 
> I suspect MIS will have all in bottles only at first.  I think 
they're a bit
> overwhelmed with the inventory requirements of having all in carts.
> 
> People can, of course, load carts.  The new vacuum loading 
technique I've

> been using seems to work very well.
> 
> Paul
>

Paul,
Thanks for the information\ufffdmaybe I'll try filling carts. BTW, I saw your
warm/cool Oceano Dunes image in the January PDN accompanying the short
print exchange story.
Peter

Paul Roark wrote:

> 
> Peter,
> 
> >Will the new sepia-VM be available in cartridges or only in bottles
> for
> >use with a CIS?
> 
> I suspect MIS will have all in bottles only at first.  I think they're
> a bit
> overwhelmed with the inventory requirements of having all in carts.
> 
> People can, of course, load carts.  The new vacuum loading technique
> I've
> been using seems to work very well.
> 
> Paul
> 
> _______________________________

Tom,

>I'm not really clear on what we will be ordering from MIS. Is it
>a "one bottle" substitution for the FS neutral? What about the VM
>sepia-neutral?

The VM/FS black is unchanged (so far).

All the midtones are different from older inks.  The cyan inks for the VM
and FS systems are the same.  After that, the midtones for the two systems
diverge.

So, VM-Sepia-Neutral users will want  VM-S-N cyan, magenta, and sepia toner.
There is also a full hextone set for those printers.

FS-Neutral users will want FS-N cyan, magenta and yellow.  Hextone Piezo
users also have the full set available.

(There may, in the near future, also be a full hextone FS-N for the Epson
driver.)

>BTW, I saw a few posts last night wherein people said they ordered
>the new inks, but the MIS site has no info at all about them?

MIS is mixing as we type.

>You couldn't have a prettier day in Monterey...we should BOTH be
>outside shooting pictures, not screwing around on our computers <g>

True.  It's a bit cold here, but after that Raider/Patriot blizzard game
last night I guess I better keep my mouth shot.

Paul

_____________________

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Paul Roark"
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> Peter,
>
> >Will the new sepia-VM be available in cartridges or only in
bottles for
> >use with a CIS?
>
> I suspect MIS will have all in bottles only at first.  I think
they're a bit
> overwhelmed with the inventory requirements of having all in carts.
>
> People can, of course, load carts.  The new vacuum loading
technique I've

> been using seems to work very well.
>
> Paul

Thanks... I'll wait a week or so (and try to use up as much of the 
old ink as I can <g> and give them a call if I can't figure this out 
on the website. I have 2 1160s and a 1270 and only one CIS. I'm 
planning on "CISing" at least one of the others and maybe adding a 
1280 dedicated for color, but have been waiting to see all the 
announcements at PMA next month... Who knows, we may have a new "next 
great thing" printer... And it sounds like we might (as a minimum) 
have an enhanced Piezo software. One of the very cool things about 
the MIS inks is the ability to switch from one to the other without 
tossing your whole system.

I'm down in Watsonville today... Definitely felt the chill when I 
took the dogs out for a walk this morning... But it sure is CLEAR.

Wouldn't want to be on the Raider plane today :{

tom

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Paul Roark" 
<paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> Tom,
> 
> >I'm not really clear on what we will be ordering from MIS. Is it
> >a "one bottle" substitution for the FS neutral? What about the VM
> >sepia-neutral?
> 
> The VM/FS black is unchanged (so far).
> 
> All the midtones are different from older inks.  The cyan inks for 
the VM
> and FS systems are the same.  After that, the midtones for the two 
systems
> diverge.
> 
> So, VM-Sepia-Neutral users will want  VM-S-N cyan, magenta, and 
sepia toner.
> There is also a full hextone set for those printers.
> 
> FS-Neutral users will want FS-N cyan, magenta and yellow.  Hextone 
Piezo
> users also have the full set available.
> 
> (There may, in the near future, also be a full hextone FS-N for the 
Epson
> driver.)
> 
> >BTW, I saw a few posts last night wherein people said they ordered
> >the new inks, but the MIS site has no info at all about them?
> 
> MIS is mixing as we type.
> 
> >You couldn't have a prettier day in Monterey...we should BOTH be
> >outside shooting pictures, not screwing around on our computers <g>
> 
> True.  It's a bit cold here, but after that Raider/Patriot blizzard 
game
> last night I guess I better keep my mouth shot.
> 
> Paul
> 
> _____________________
> 
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@y..., "Paul Roark"
> <paul.roark@v...> wrote:
> > Peter,
> >
> > >Will the new sepia-VM be available in cartridges or only in
> bottles for
> > >use with a CIS?
> >
> > I suspect MIS will have all in bottles only at first.  I think
> they're a bit
> > overwhelmed with the inventory requirements of having all in 
carts.

> >
> > People can, of course, load carts.  The new vacuum loading
> technique I've
> > been using seems to work very well.
> >
> > Paul

Paul,

If you have not already done so, could you explain the vacuum loading technique.

I got tired of going to work with ink under my finger nails, so I bought latex gloves, but loading carts with a syringe is still a pain and a messy propasition.

Mike

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Paul Roark 
  To: DigitalB&WPrint 
  Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2002 12:46 PM
  Subject: Re: [Digital BW] anybody using MIS sepia-neutral VM inks?


  Peter,

  >Will the new sepia-VM be available in cartridges or only in bottles for
  >use with a CIS?

  I suspect MIS will have all in bottles only at first.  I think they're a bit
  overwhelmed with the inventory requirements of having all in carts.

  People can, of course, load carts.  The new vacuum loading technique I've
  been using seems to work very well.

  Paul

  _______________________________


  Paul Roark wrote:
  >
  > Heath wrote:
  >
  > >I was wondering if anyone has received the sepia to neutral VM inks
  > from
  > >MIS yet?  If so, what exactly did you order, and do they work with
  > the
  > >"original" VM curves on MIS's website?
  >
  > MIS might mix the neutral ink this weekend.  The sepia VM that MIS has
  > shipped so far uses the standard MIS VM warm base.
  >
  > The VM-Sepia-Neutral will use the same curves as the standard VM
  > inkset, but
  > just covers a different range.  Quite a few have expressed interest in
  > more
  > warmth and sepia tones.  So, this it is.  For my uses -- landscapes
  > and
  > reproductions of old photos -- I've found the mix to be very useful.
  >
  > Also, the neutral ink is for an FS-Neutral.  So, Piezo users will have
  > a
  > truly neutral ink mix.
  >
  > Paul
  > http://www.PaulRoark.com


  Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:

  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint

  Please follow these basic guidelines:
  - Include your full name with your message.
  - Include the address of your website, if you have one.
  - As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages to keep them short.
  - As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
  - Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
  - Complete your Yahoo profile.
  - Before posting a question, search the message archives and the various resources on the homepage. 




  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

So, Paul.  What should I do.  Get the new set when I run out of this 
batch of original inks?  I don't print the cool in the original, but 
I do the neutral and the slightly warm.   Will I get best results 
with the new set?

Bill

>Todd,
>
>The new neutral MIS ink fade tests the best.
>
>>... is that the Neutral FS set, or a fade resistant
>>set (as I think I've heard you refer to it in the past) still being worked
>>on, or the neutral curve of the new sepia-neutral set?
>
>There is going to be a single neutral base ink.  It'll be used in the FS-N
>and in the VM-Sepia-Neutral.  It fades less and warms very little on EAM,
>other papers may vary.  In short, this is the result of my efforts to date
>on the warming.  The tests look so good that there is no point in making a
>neutral ink that warm-shifts the way current quads do.  I hope this ink is a
>major step toward solving what I consider a major defect in the current B&W
>printing materials.
>
>As I find other ways to improve things, they'll probably be incorporated
>incrementally in this inkset.
>
>Paul
>http://www.PaulRoark.com
>
>
>
>Please visit the Group Homepage to check the Files, Bookmarks, Polls 
>and other resources as they are often being updated. The page is at:
>
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint
>
>Please follow these basic guidelines:
>- Include your full name with your message.
>- Include the address of your website, if you have one.
>- As threads develop, trim off excess portions of earlier messages 
>to keep them short.
>- As the topic of a thread changes remember to change the subject header.
>- Good manners are required at all time. No personal attacks or "flames."
>- Complete your Yahoo profile.
>- Before posting a question, search the message archives and the 
>various resources on the homepage.
>
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


-- 
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
b i l l  a g e e  s t u d i o
c a p i s t r a n o  b e a c h  c a l i f o r n i a

billagee@...
http://www.redsilver.com
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

Bill,

You wrote:

>So, Paul.  What should I do.  Get the new set when I run out of this
>batch of original inks?  I don't print the cool in the original, but
>I do the neutral and the slightly warm.   Will I get best results
>with the new set?

It's really rather subjective.  If you use a CIS and are happy with the
existing inkset, stay with it.  If you use & can fill carts, you might want
to give the new a try to see which you like best.

Paul

Since I just started using the VM inks a month ago, I don't have a 
CIS yet...I think I will do just that and order the new inks and try 
a cart load.

thanks,

Bill


>Bill,
>
>You wrote:
>
>>So, Paul.  What should I do.  Get the new set when I run out of this
>>batch of original inks?  I don't print the cool in the original, but
>>I do the neutral and the slightly warm.   Will I get best results
>>with the new set?
>
>It's really rather subjective.  If you use a CIS and are happy with the
>existing inkset, stay with it.  If you use & can fill carts, you might want
>to give the new a try to see which you like best.
>
>Paul
>

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b i l l  a g e e  s t u d i o
c a p i s t r a n o  b e a c h  c a l i f o r n i a

billagee@...
http://www.redsilver.com
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