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9600 for B&W

9600 for B&W

2006-10-13 by Steven Daniel

I have the opportunity to buy a used 9600 printer cheap. I have a
4800 and really like the K3 inks. I used to use a 2200 and don't want
to go back to that inkset for black and white - even with Imageprint.
What are the options for 3rd party pigment inks, etc. for doing black and
white? And will I be able to get prints without gloss differential
and bronzing, either by using quad inks, or PK art papers?

ps. I'm not interested in matte surface papers. I also don't want to
get involved in clogging. So any opinions on that would be most
welcome.

Thanks,
Steve Daniel

RE: [Digital BW] 9600 for B&W

2006-10-13 by Paul Roark

>...
>What are the options for 3rd party pigment inks, etc. for 
> doing black and white?

In my 7600 I used MIS UT7.  See
http://home1.gte.net/res09aij/UT7-7600-Readme.htm  Although I made a number
of PS curves to control the inks with the Epson driver, I switched to a rip
(IJC) to get a better dmax with matte papers.  The newer UT-3D inkset would
also be an option, but I have no curves that would be appropriate for the
9600.  See http://home1.gte.net/res09aij/UT-3D_Readme.pdf 

I'm currently considering modifying my recommendations for large format
printers.  My 7500 is now being used as a test bed for a non-blended inkset
approach.  The primary issue I'm concerned with is tone shifts in large
format printers if they are left un-used for more than a week.  My
hypothesis is that the blended B&W inks are the problem.  (I'm only familiar
with MIS pigments here.)  It appears the pigments separate somewhat in the
tubing between the carts and the heads.  (The problem does not affect
desktop 13" printers.)  I'll have my first look at the non-blended stability
tomorrow, but it may take a few more weeks to be sure if the non-blended ink
approach is, indeed, better.

A secondary issue I'm interested in is using all or nearly all off-the-shelf
inks that are available from multiple sources. 

The non-blended ink approach I have in the 7500 uses 4 carbon inks: MK (MIS
Eboni), PK (MIS now, might be Epson PK in the future), MIS LK, and MIS LLK.
For controlling the tone of the B&W print, I've loaded MIS LC diluted 1:1
(the 9600 could probably use un-diluted LC, but the cyan pigments, even LC
at 50%, set the limit in smoothness) and Epson LM (may be Epson Archival LM
in the future -- depends of fade testing).  If this were a 9600, I'd
probably have R800 Red in the 7th spot.

This approach is not quite as smooth in the highlights as my previous
blended, dedicated B&W inksets, but overall it is as smooth.  If the setup
is more stable with respect to tones, that will determine which direction I
go.  The 7500, of course, has a large, non-variable dot, so it's in a
different league than the k2 printers.  The 7500 with this approach is fine
for the display prints I use it for.  A good k2 printer would be smooth
enough even for small prints.

In terms of profiling, bronzing, gloss differential, printing on matte and
glossy, this approach is as good as any I've seen or used.  A rip is needed.
I'm using IJC, but I'm sure QTR or others would work fine.

I'll keep the forum posted on my experience with this non-blended, "4K+"
approach.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

9600 for B&W & some potential options

2006-10-13 by Paul Roark

>> I have the opportunity to buy a used 9600 printer cheap.
>>...
>> What are the options for 3rd party pigment inks, etc. for 
>> doing black and white?


To follow up on my earlier response on this as well as the tentative good
news about the stability of my non-blended ink 7500 approach, here are some
of the next steps I'll be taking that might be of interest.

If color profiles can handle twisted spaces, a hextone with carbon in the
magenta channel and LM in the yellow position, as well as C & LC colors
(perhaps a diluted LLC and LC for more smoothness) might give us a color
managed B&W approach.

With a rip, a hextone or better can have both color and B&W.  With modern
printers K, LK, LLK, LC, LM, and Y should work fine.  This should give me
all the gamut I need in color as well as excellent, stable B&W.  I will
explore the profiling options with such a setup.  I'll try both of the above
on the 220 first, as time permits.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Re: 9600 for B&W & some potential options

2006-10-13 by Greg

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" 
<paul.roark@...> wrote:

> 
> With a rip, a hextone or better can have both color and B&W.  With 
modern
> printers K, LK, LLK, LC, LM, and Y should work fine.  This should 
give me
> all the gamut I need in color as well as excellent, stable B&W.  I 
will
> explore the profiling options with such a setup.  I'll try both of 
the above
> on the 220 first, as time permits.
> 


I would suggest CMYK profiles and of course a RIP that will handle 
them properly. That also kind of eliminates the R220 as a testbed 
since I doubt you'll find a CMYK RIP for that printer. You may find 
that you need to put the medium and light black inks in the LC and LM 
slots for the 7500 to print well. A lot of that will come down to how 
the RIP does the dithering.

RE: [Digital BW] Re: 9600 for B&W & some potential options

2006-10-13 by Paul Roark

Greg,

 

The 2200 is a likely candidate for a test bed for the full color + B&W
approach.  Are there CMYK rips that can deal with such?  Any recommendations
(cost being a factor)?  

 

(The 7500 approach is probably set for me now - 4K + LM & 50% LC appears to
work well.)

 

Paul

www.PaulRoark.com <http://www.paulroark.com/>  

 

 

 

 

 

 

  _____  
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Greg
Sent: Friday, October 13, 2006 12:57 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: 9600 for B&W & some potential options

 

--- In DigitalBlackandWhit
<mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint%40yahoogroups.com>
eThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark" 
<paul.roark@...> wrote:

> 
> With a rip, a hextone or better can have both color and B&W. With 
modern
> printers K, LK, LLK, LC, LM, and Y should work fine. This should 
give me
> all the gamut I need in color as well as excellent, stable B&W. I 
will
> explore the profiling options with such a setup. I'll try both of 
the above
> on the 220 first, as time permits.
> 

I would suggest CMYK profiles and of course a RIP that will handle 
them properly. That also kind of eliminates the R220 as a testbed 
since I doubt you'll find a CMYK RIP for that printer. You may find 
that you need to put the medium and light black inks in the LC and LM 
slots for the 7500 to print well. A lot of that will come down to how 
the RIP does the dithering.

 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

RE: [Digital BW] Re: 9600 for B&W & some potential options

2006-10-13 by John Moody

No, I did not find single RIP that equaled the Epson driver performance for
the 2200.  StudioPrint was not bad if you have to use something, but the
M/LM and C/LC partitions are fixed, so you are out of luck for what you want
to do with it.
The Evolution RIP has great promise, but only works in 720x720 mode, with
very few screening options.

Please let me (us) know if you find something; I would very much like to
extend my 2200 life.

Best regards,
John Moody
Show quoted textHide quoted text
-----Original Message-----
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Paul Roark
Sent: Friday, October 13, 2006 5:49 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Re: 9600 for B&W & some potential options

Greg,

The 2200 is a likely candidate for a test bed for the full color + B&W
approach. Are there CMYK rips that can deal with such? Any recommendations
(cost being a factor)?

(The 7500 approach is probably set for me now - 4K + LM & 50% LC appears to
work well.)

Paul


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Re: 9600 for B&W & some potential options

2006-10-13 by Carl Schofield

I use the Colorburst Xphoto RIP with my 4000 and make my own CMYK  
profiles for the MIS K4 inks.  Works well with the 2200 also.  If you  
use the Epson UC inks there are canned profiles available that work  
quite well.
http://www.colorburstrip.com/

Carl
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Oct 13, 2006, at 6:37 PM, John Moody wrote:

> No, I did not find single RIP that equaled the Epson driver  
> performance for
> the 2200.  StudioPrint was not bad if you have to use something,  
> but the
> M/LM and C/LC partitions are fixed, so you are out of luck for what  
> you want
> to do with it.
> The Evolution RIP has great promise, but only works in 720x720  
> mode, with
> very few screening options.
>
> Please let me (us) know if you find something; I would very much  
> like to
> extend my 2200 life.
>
> Best regards,
> John Moody
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of  
> Paul Roark
> Sent: Friday, October 13, 2006 5:49 PM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Re: 9600 for B&W & some potential options
>
> Greg,
>
> The 2200 is a likely candidate for a test bed for the full color + B&W
> approach. Are there CMYK rips that can deal with such? Any  
> recommendations
> (cost being a factor)?
>
> (The 7500 approach is probably set for me now - 4K + LM & 50% LC  
> appears to
> work well.)
>
> Paul
>

[Digital BW] Re: 9600 for B&W & some potential options

2006-10-14 by Tyler Boley

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Carl Schofield
<list@...> wrote:
>
> I use the Colorburst Xphoto RIP with my 4000 and make my own CMYK  
> profiles for the MIS K4 inks...

Carl, what profile software are you using?
Tyler

[Digital BW] Re: 9600 for B&W & some potential options

2006-10-14 by Greg

Paul, I do not know of anything for the 2200 that will give you the
flexibility needed. For the 7500 you might want to try the newest
version of the Evolution RIP. I'm sure we can get them to extend the
trial period long enough to get a few CMYK profiles built. You would
need to switch back to only 3 black inks though. Let me know if you
need  CMYK profiles. In the x600 printers you would be able to set
them up with MK, PK, k, lk, LC, LM, Y which would give a decent gamut
if you use Image Specialists Ultra Pro inks (I assume the same could
be said for the MIS Pro inks). Reds and purples would be where it
would show the greatest problems, with a little bit lacking in blue
and green. I tried this early on just to see what it what look like,
and it wasn't that bad. Using full CMY gave a noticable lack in cyan
and again a slight lack in red and purple.

If you can step up to a 4000 or 4800, then you can use the Evolution
or full Colorburst RIP. The Evolution is $500 for 17 inches and under,
$1000 for 24 and under, and $1500 for larger (last time I checked
prices). 1 Year of full support, and additional years are only around
$300. All upgrades are included during the year of support.

Re: [Digital BW] Re: 9600 for B&W & some potential options

2006-10-14 by Carl Schofield

Tyler,

The Colorburst RIP comes with it's own profiling software called  
SpectralVisionPro.  I think it is based on the Monaco Platinum  
profiling engine.  Works quite well with the xrite pulse  
spectrophotometer.

Carl
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Oct 13, 2006, at 10:14 PM, Tyler Boley wrote:

> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Carl Schofield
> <list@...> wrote:
>>
>> I use the Colorburst Xphoto RIP with my 4000 and make my own CMYK
>> profiles for the MIS K4 inks...
>
> Carl, what profile software are you using?
> Tyler

RE: [Digital BW] Re: 9600 for B&W & some potential options

2006-10-14 by John Moody

Carl,
Unless I missed something when I ran the colorburst RIP on my 2200, you can'
t change the M/LM and C/LC partitions.

Best regards,
John Moody
Show quoted textHide quoted text
-----Original Message-----
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Carl
Schofield
Sent: Friday, October 13, 2006 7:21 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: 9600 for B&W & some potential options

I use the Colorburst Xphoto RIP with my 4000 and make my own CMYK
profiles for the MIS K4 inks. Works well with the 2200 also. If you
use the Epson UC inks there are canned profiles available that work
quite well.
http://www.colorburstrip.com/ <http://www.colorburstrip.com/>

Carl


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Re: 9600 for B&W & some potential options

2006-10-14 by Carl Schofield

John,

We had  some discussion about this awhile ago in the following thread  
on the Colorburst support forum:
http://www.colorburstrip.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1057
Bottom line is that you can adjust the light/dark inks partitioning  
in the latest version of the RIP (4.1), but I haven't found any need  
to do so with my profiling.

Carl
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Oct 14, 2006, at 6:27 AM, John Moody wrote:

> Carl,
> Unless I missed something when I ran the colorburst RIP on my 2200,  
> you can'
> t change the M/LM and C/LC partitions.
>
> Best regards,
> John Moody
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Carl
> Schofield
> Sent: Friday, October 13, 2006 7:21 PM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: 9600 for B&W & some potential options
>
> I use the Colorburst Xphoto RIP with my 4000 and make my own CMYK
> profiles for the MIS K4 inks. Works well with the 2200 also. If you
> use the Epson UC inks there are canned profiles available that work
> quite well.
> http://www.colorburstrip.com/ <http://www.colorburstrip.com/>
>
> Carl

[Digital BW] Re: 9600 for B&W & some potential options

2006-10-14 by Tyler Boley

I was attemtping tp help someone with it and there were curves for the light inks.
Was yours bundled with the printer or a full purchase version? Or perhaps it's printer 
dependent, this was a 7xxx I think.
Tyler

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "John Moody" <moodymz3@...> 
wrote:
Show quoted textHide quoted text
>
> Carl,
> Unless I missed something when I ran the colorburst RIP on my 2200, you can'
> t change the M/LM and C/LC partitions.
> 
> Best regards,
> John Moody
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Carl
> Schofield
> Sent: Friday, October 13, 2006 7:21 PM
> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: 9600 for B&W & some potential options
> 
> I use the Colorburst Xphoto RIP with my 4000 and make my own CMYK
> profiles for the MIS K4 inks. Works well with the 2200 also. If you
> use the Epson UC inks there are canned profiles available that work
> quite well.
> http://www.colorburstrip.com/ <http://www.colorburstrip.com/>
> 
> Carl
> 
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Re: [Digital BW] Re: 9600 for B&W & some potential options

2006-10-14 by Carl Schofield

Tyler,

We had  some discussion about this awhile ago in the following thread  
on the Colorburst support forum:
http://www.colorburstrip.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1057
Bottom line is that you can adjust the light/dark inks partitioning  
in the latest version of the RIP (4.1), but I haven't found any need  
to do so with my profiling.  You need the full version of the RIP  
(4.1) to get the profiling tools.

Carl
Show quoted textHide quoted text
On Oct 14, 2006, at 11:18 AM, Tyler Boley wrote:

> I was attemtping tp help someone with it and there were curves for  
> the light inks.
> Was yours bundled with the printer or a full purchase version? Or  
> perhaps it's printer
> dependent, this was a 7xxx I think.
> Tyler
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "John Moody"  
> <moodymz3@...>
> wrote:
>>
>> Carl,
>> Unless I missed something when I ran the colorburst RIP on my  
>> 2200, you can'
>> t change the M/LM and C/LC partitions.
>>
>> Best regards,
>> John Moody
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
>> [mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of  
>> Carl
>> Schofield
>> Sent: Friday, October 13, 2006 7:21 PM
>> To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
>> Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Re: 9600 for B&W & some potential options
>>
>> I use the Colorburst Xphoto RIP with my 4000 and make my own CMYK
>> profiles for the MIS K4 inks. Works well with the 2200 also. If you
>> use the Epson UC inks there are canned profiles available that work
>> quite well.
>> http://www.colorburstrip.com/ <http://www.colorburstrip.com/>
>>
>> Carl
>>
>>
>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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