Digital BW, The Print

Sorry if this sounds too basic and I am struggling.
So much that I've read seems geared to RGB that I'm looking for advice about sharpening 
Grayscale images. Yes, I've searched the archives at DB&WTP, and Googled, and what I've 
found seems dated, RGB,  and unclear.
PhotoKit, Pixel Genius suggests 
1:Capture sharpen{easy/gentle with an edge mask}, 
2:Creative sharpen, 
3:Output sharpen, {for the method, size and DPI} 
meaning 2 or 3 sharpening passes. AND Photokit only works in RGB!
Convert to RGB? Then back again for output? What's the workflow look like?
Other sources suggest sharpening for output at the end of the workflow. {only one pass} 
I'd appreciate hearing from the experienced members on the subject of sharpening 
Grayscale images for Ink jet output. 
FYI
Mac OS 10.4.7  PS2
NEC LCD calibrated monitor
Epson R2400
Specific project is 645 B&W NEGS Fuji Acros scanned with an Imacon
Anyone willing to share their secrets?

Thanks,
Julian Kaiser

jlk4410 wrote:
> Sorry if this sounds too basic and I am struggling.
> So much that I've read seems geared to RGB that I'm looking for advice about sharpening 
> Grayscale images. Yes, I've searched the archives at DB&WTP, and Googled, and what I've 
> found seems dated, RGB,  and unclear.
> PhotoKit, Pixel Genius suggests 
> 1:Capture sharpen{easy/gentle with an edge mask}, 
> 2:Creative sharpen, 
> 3:Output sharpen, {for the method, size and DPI} 
> meaning 2 or 3 sharpening passes. AND Photokit only works in RGB!
> Convert to RGB? Then back again for output? What's the workflow look like?
> Other sources suggest sharpening for output at the end of the workflow. {only one pass} 
> I'd appreciate hearing from the experienced members on the subject of sharpening 
> Grayscale images for Ink jet output. 
> FYI
> Mac OS 10.4.7  PS2
> NEC LCD calibrated monitor
> Epson R2400
> Specific project is 645 B&W NEGS Fuji Acros scanned with an Imacon
> Anyone willing to share their secrets?
> 
> Thanks,
> Julian Kaiser



The consensus is sharpening in two or three stages (Bruce 
Fraser old and new). The last stage being a print sharpening 
that isn't saved with the edited file. For the last I use 
Qimage before bringing the file to QTR for quad printing. In 
discussions with Mike Chaney his answer was:

quotes:

">Remains that question whether the interpolation and sharpening
  >> qualities of Qimage are as effective in B&W (quad) 
printing as
  >> they are in color. Or are there better algorithms for B&W 
only ?

The techniques should be identical.  I don't know of any reason
to treat
B/W sharpening and interpolation any differently than color.

Mike

  >With a B&W image, you are altering only luminance values, so
you should
  >> be able to use higher levels of sharpening..  That leads 
to a
question
  >> of whether QImage currently defaults to higher sharpening
values when
  >> sharpening B&W images?


Shouldn't matter.  Qimage sharpens based on the luminance 
channel to
begin with, even in color images.

Mike"
end of quote

Sharpening in other applications will probably work in similar 
ways.

Ernst
                    --
           Ernst Dinkla


www.pigment-print.com
(         unvollendet         )

I also work on a Mac and I've been using Deadman's sharpening actions  
(free, at link below).  I particularly like the Bruce Fraser action  
that is included in this set of Photoshop actions.  All work fine  
with 8 or 16 bit grayscale files.
http://www.pinkheadedbug.com/links.html

Carl

On Oct 21, 2006, at 3:08 AM, jlk4410 wrote:

> Sorry if this sounds too basic and I am struggling.
> So much that I've read seems geared to RGB that I'm looking for  
> advice about sharpening
> Grayscale images. Yes, I've searched the archives at DB&WTP, and  
> Googled, and what I've
> found seems dated, RGB,  and unclear.
> PhotoKit, Pixel Genius suggests
> 1:Capture sharpen{easy/gentle with an edge mask},
> 2:Creative sharpen,
> 3:Output sharpen, {for the method, size and DPI}
> meaning 2 or 3 sharpening passes. AND Photokit only works in RGB!
> Convert to RGB? Then back again for output? What's the workflow  
> look like?
> Other sources suggest sharpening for output at the end of the  
> workflow. {only one pass}
> I'd appreciate hearing from the experienced members on the subject  
> of sharpening
> Grayscale images for Ink jet output.
> FYI
> Mac OS 10.4.7  PS2
> NEC LCD calibrated monitor
> Epson R2400
> Specific project is 645 B&W NEGS Fuji Acros scanned with an Imacon
> Anyone willing to share their secrets?
>
> Thanks,
> Julian Kaiser

I photograph with 4x5 b&w negatives. I tried PhotoKit but when you scan a
4x5 negative in RGB at 4800 ppi the file is prohibitively large (at least it
is for me and my computer). I also didn't really see any great advantage vs
doing it without PhotoKit, either way you ultimately have to make your own
judgements.

I do no sharpening until the image is ready to print, then I save the
unsharpened image for future sharpening at a different print size. On the
version to be sharpened I use Photoshop USM, selecting areas that I
don't want to sharp at all (e.g. clouds, sky), others that I want to sharpen
mildly (generally areas of out of focus background and good bokeh),  and 
areas in which good sharp detail is critical. It isn't as difficult or time 
consuming as it sounds, for
many images it's just two steps, areas of no sharpening and areas of
sharpening. With experience, and working with actual pixels, I don't find it
difficult to obtain what looks to me like optimal sharpening. When there's a
question I err on the side of less sharpening rather than more. IMHO there's
nothing that screams louder that "this is a digital print!" than a print
that's sharpened too much.

There's a free program at Luminous Landscape that sharpens automatically
based on which areas the program thinks need to be sharpened by how much
(though you can override the program's choices).  I liked that program and
used it for a while but for some reason I've never been able to get it to
work after switching to a different computer. You might take a look at it
and see what you think.

 ----- Original Message ----- 
From: <CorrPro96@...>
To: <DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, October 21, 2006 10:07 AM
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Opinions/tips on Grayscale sharpening



In a message dated 10/21/2006 3:13:57 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
Jlkmmw@... writes:

Sorry if  this sounds too basic and I am struggling.
So much that I've read seems  geared to RGB that I'm looking for advice
about
sharpening
Grayscale  images. Yes, I've searched the archives at DB&WTP, and Googled,
and what  I've
found seems dated, RGB,  and unclear.
PhotoKit, Pixel Genius  suggests
1:Capture sharpen{easy/gentle with an edge mask},
2:Creative  sharpen,
3:Output sharpen, {for the method, size and DPI}
meaning 2 or  3 sharpening passes. AND Photokit only works in RGB!
Convert to RGB? Then  back again for output? What's the workflow look like?
Other sources suggest  sharpening for output at the end of the workflow.
{only one pass}
I'd  appreciate hearing from the experienced members on the subject of
sharpening
Grayscale images for Ink jet output.
FYI
Mac OS 10.4.7   PS2
NEC LCD calibrated monitor
Epson R2400
Specific project is 645  B&W NEGS Fuji Acros scanned with an Imacon
Anyone willing to share  their secrets?

Thanks,
Julian Kaiser




Julian:
Are you scanning in RGB? If you scan in grayscale, you lose  information.

Richard (Brooklyn)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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In a message dated 10/21/2006 3:13:57 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
Jlkmmw@... writes:

Sorry if  this sounds too basic and I am struggling.
So much that I've read seems  geared to RGB that I'm looking for advice about 
sharpening 
Grayscale  images. Yes, I've searched the archives at DB&WTP, and Googled, 
and what  I've 
found seems dated, RGB,  and unclear.
PhotoKit, Pixel Genius  suggests 
1:Capture sharpen{easy/gentle with an edge mask}, 
2:Creative  sharpen, 
3:Output sharpen, {for the method, size and DPI} 
meaning 2 or  3 sharpening passes. AND Photokit only works in RGB!
Convert to RGB? Then  back again for output? What's the workflow look like?
Other sources suggest  sharpening for output at the end of the workflow. 
{only one pass} 
I'd  appreciate hearing from the experienced members on the subject of 
sharpening  
Grayscale images for Ink jet output. 
FYI
Mac OS 10.4.7   PS2
NEC LCD calibrated monitor
Epson R2400
Specific project is 645  B&W NEGS Fuji Acros scanned with an Imacon
Anyone willing to share  their secrets?

Thanks,
Julian Kaiser




Julian:
Are you scanning in RGB? If you scan in grayscale, you lose  information.
 
Richard (Brooklyn)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hello Julian,

>I'd appreciate hearing from the experienced members on the subject of 
>sharpening Grayscale images for Ink jet output. 

All of my images are grayscale and I do my sharpening in PS rather
than those other tools, so the RGB part is not an issue for me.

I usually use the default 25% in the RAW conversion of my digicam
files.  Beyond that each file is different.  Sometimes a file requires
selective sharpening, for example a landscape where I often mask out
the sky area to prevent any sharpening there.  Another example is
where certain areas that are sharpened require different % and/or
threshold settings.

I normally do any sharpening as the very last thing, but if an image
needs this kind of selective sharpening, because of the required masks
it's impractical to not save it in the image and apply it each time
it's printed.  So I usually will save a non-sharpened version in case
I ever want to go back and change it (sometimes if only 1 or 2 masks
are involved, I'll save the selections and not save the sharpening,
but this increases file size dramatically).  I keep detailed notes of
the work imbedded in the file with the memo tool so I'll know what I did.

I don't have any set procedures that are applied the same to all
images.  I hope this helps.

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

On Oct 21, 2006, at 3:08 AM, jlk4410 wrote:

> AND Photokit only works in RGB!
> Convert to RGB? Then back again for output? What's the workflow  
> look like?

I use PhotoKit Sharpener so I will help with your questions.

When I do B+W I leave the final image in RGB so I can add toning if I  
want to which works well for me. My workflow is as follows:

1. Get the original color image to look the way I want it to.
2. Do the capture sharpening.
3. Do the optional creative sharpening (extra sharpening added to  
make the image look better).
4. Duplicate and flatten duplicate image.
5. Convert duplicate image to B+W.
6. Add toning if desired.
7. Resize image to final output size.
8. Do output sharpening
9. Print

The reason PhotoKit Sharpener wants the image in color is because  
there is an option to reduce noise during the sharpening process and  
that process applies the reduction to the R,G and B channels  
individually.

Also, while a bit complicated, there are conversion processes which  
involve creating a B+W image comprised of layers based on the L  
channel from a LAB conversion of the color original, a straight  
grayscale conversion from the original and the R,G and B channels  
from the original. Then you can use masks, change blending modes and  
vary opacities of the layers to get your final B+W image.

Jim

Is there a functional equivalent to Qimage for workflows which  
include a Mac?

I'm in the same boat as Julian except that he's more up-to-date.
--
Sam

On Oct 21, 2006, at 2:25 AM, Ernst Dinkla wrote:

> jlk4410 wrote:
>> ... I'm looking for advice about sharpening
>> Grayscale images. ... What's the workflow look like?
>> ...
>>
>> FYI
>> Mac OS 10.4.7  PS2
>> ...
>>
>> [snip]
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Julian Kaiser
>
>
> The consensus is sharpening in two or three stages (Bruce
> Fraser old and new). The last stage being a print sharpening
> that isn't saved with the edited file. For the last I use
> Qimage before bringing the file to QTR for quad printing. In
> discussions with Mike Chaney his answer was:
>
> quotes:
>
> [snip]

Hi Julian;

Do you have PS-CS2? If so, the 'smart sharpening works well, better 
than USM. I too use 2-3 passes with a barely perceptible bump each 
time, and if I can, I do all sharpening in 16-bit. If I have noise 
or grain in some parts of the image, I often apply the sharpening to 
a duplicate image layer, convert it to a 'hide-all' layer mask, and 
paint in only the areas I want sharper. Keeps those skies smooth and 
grit-free.

Steven Karafyllakis

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "jlk4410" 
<Jlkmmw@...> wrote:
>
> Sorry if this sounds too basic and I am struggling.
> So much that I've read seems geared to RGB that I'm looking for 
advice about sharpening 
> Grayscale images. Yes, I've searched the archives at DB&WTP, and 
Googled, and what I've 
> found seems dated, RGB,  and unclear.
> PhotoKit, Pixel Genius suggests 
> 1:Capture sharpen{easy/gentle with an edge mask}, 
> 2:Creative sharpen, 
> 3:Output sharpen, {for the method, size and DPI} 
> meaning 2 or 3 sharpening passes. AND Photokit only works in RGB!
> Convert to RGB? Then back again for output? What's the workflow 
look like?
> Other sources suggest sharpening for output at the end of the 
workflow. {only one pass} 
> I'd appreciate hearing from the experienced members on the subject 
of sharpening 

> Grayscale images for Ink jet output. 
> FYI
> Mac OS 10.4.7  PS2
> NEC LCD calibrated monitor
> Epson R2400
> Specific project is 645 B&W NEGS Fuji Acros scanned with an Imacon
> Anyone willing to share their secrets?
> 
> Thanks,
> Julian Kaiser
>

PKS works great. You can easily convert your grayscale image to RGB with
one mouse click for sharpening and then convert back if you wish. (takes
only seconds) I simply keep my files in RGB to use PKS and then send to
ABW on the 2400. It works both ways and I am very happy with the PKS
product. I rarely use the capture sharpen or creative sharpener. I find
that it is easy to overdo it!

Cheers,

Scott

http://www.ScottJonesPhoto.com

Any idea what the ftp login info is?
Thanks
Mike J.

-----Original Message-----
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Carl
Schofield
Sent: Saturday, October 21, 2006 6:39 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Opinions/tips on Grayscale sharpening

I also work on a Mac and I've been using Deadman's sharpening actions
(free, at link below). I particularly like the Bruce Fraser action
that is included in this set of Photoshop actions. All work fine
with 8 or 16 bit grayscale files.
http://www.pinkheadedbug.com/links.html
<http://www.pinkheadedbug.com/links.html>

Carl

On Oct 21, 2006, at 3:08 AM, jlk4410 wrote:

> Sorry if this sounds too basic and I am struggling.
> So much that I've read seems geared to RGB that I'm looking for
> advice about sharpening
> Grayscale images. Yes, I've searched the archives at DB&WTP, and
> Googled, and what I've
> found seems dated, RGB, and unclear.
> PhotoKit, Pixel Genius suggests
> 1:Capture sharpen{easy/gentle with an edge mask},
> 2:Creative sharpen,
> 3:Output sharpen, {for the method, size and DPI}
> meaning 2 or 3 sharpening passes. AND Photokit only works in RGB!
> Convert to RGB? Then back again for output? What's the workflow
> look like?
> Other sources suggest sharpening for output at the end of the
> workflow. {only one pass}
> I'd appreciate hearing from the experienced members on the subject
> of sharpening
> Grayscale images for Ink jet output.
> FYI
> Mac OS 10.4.7 PS2
> NEC LCD calibrated monitor
> Epson R2400
> Specific project is 645 B&W NEGS Fuji Acros scanned with an Imacon
> Anyone willing to share their secrets?
>
> Thanks,
> Julian Kaiser



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> Julian:
> Are you scanning in RGB? If you scan in grayscale, you lose  information.
>  
> Richard (Brooklyn)

Richard,
My research and testing showed no advantage to scanning B&W negs,{Fuji Acros 645} in 
RGB mode. All it did for me was 3x my file size. I saw no difference in the noise level 
among the RGB channels. {many say that blue channel is least noise in CCD scanners} All 
were relatively clean. Was told this is due to the CCD cooling system that Imacon uses. 
From what I've seen, no digital image is totally noise free, and the Imacon scans are the 
next best thing to drum scans.

I don't think my sharpening issues are related to scanning. I used an Imacon 949, in 16bit 
grayscale mode @ 400DPI {no interpolation, no sharpening}. Files are 105Mb. 

I've been happy with PhotoKit for color images and when I try it for B&W I'm unsure when 
to convert to RGB as flattening images is a pain and not flattening yeilds unacceptable 
tonal changes. Also PK doesn't give me the amount of sharpening I would like in B&W.  I 
understand that I need to develop a 'sharpening workflow' {system} for myself, and 
thought that this group would be a great place to seek direction to help me wade thru all 
the plug-ins and 'expert adivce'.

Thanks to all,
Julian

PS. I e-mailed "http://www.pinkheadedbug.com/links.html" asking about the download
log in info for Deadman's Sharpener. Will share what I get.

In a message dated 10/21/2006 3:48:56 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
Jlkmmw@... writes:

Richard,
My research and testing showed no advantage to scanning  B&W negs,{Fuji Acros 
645} in 
RGB mode. All it did for me was 3x my  file size. I saw no difference in the 
noise level 
among the RGB channels.  {many say that blue channel is least noise in CCD 
scanners} All 
were  relatively clean. Was told this is due to the CCD cooling system that 
Imacon  uses. 
From what I've seen, no digital image is totally noise free, and the  Imacon 
scans are the 
next best thing to drum  scans.



Julian:
Interesting.... I'm using a Precision  (v. 1) and I noticed  improvements in 
my scans when I started scanning in RGB. I'm not aware of any  sharpening 
problems, and haven't used the process as yet. I'm going to follow  this thread 
carefully, and take a scan through the steps you have described.  Thanks.
 
Richard


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I sympathise with the original poster.  I have found sharpening B&W in 
Qimage harder than colour.  For the simple reason that you can't use
Mike Chaney's "sharpness equalisation" with B&W images.  It's this
point that Mike overlooks in his comment below.  IMHO you can very
easily do a very effective final print sharpen of colour images in
Qimage using "sharpness equalisation" without the need to bother with
2 or 3 step sharpening processes.  But I find the B&W sharpening in
Qimage too blunt.  Whole-of-image USM is too coarse a tool, despite
the advantages of Mike's "smart sharpen" for matching screen to print
sharpness.  I find that I have to sharpen B&W using other tools before
printing in Qimage.

F_P



--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Ernst Dinkla
<E.Dinkla@...> wrote:
>
> jlk4410 wrote:
> > Sorry if this sounds too basic and I am struggling.
> > So much that I've read seems geared to RGB that I'm looking for
advice about sharpening 
> > Grayscale images. Yes, I've searched the archives at DB&WTP, and
Googled, and what I've 
> > found seems dated, RGB,  and unclear.
> > PhotoKit, Pixel Genius suggests 
> > 1:Capture sharpen{easy/gentle with an edge mask}, 
> > 2:Creative sharpen, 
> > 3:Output sharpen, {for the method, size and DPI} 
> > meaning 2 or 3 sharpening passes. AND Photokit only works in RGB!
> > Convert to RGB? Then back again for output? What's the workflow
look like?
> > Other sources suggest sharpening for output at the end of the
workflow. {only one pass} 
> > I'd appreciate hearing from the experienced members on the subject
of sharpening 

> > Grayscale images for Ink jet output. 
> > FYI
> > Mac OS 10.4.7  PS2
> > NEC LCD calibrated monitor
> > Epson R2400
> > Specific project is 645 B&W NEGS Fuji Acros scanned with an Imacon
> > Anyone willing to share their secrets?
> > 
> > Thanks,
> > Julian Kaiser
> 
> 
> 
> The consensus is sharpening in two or three stages (Bruce 
> Fraser old and new). The last stage being a print sharpening 
> that isn't saved with the edited file. For the last I use 
> Qimage before bringing the file to QTR for quad printing. In 
> discussions with Mike Chaney his answer was:
> 
> quotes:
> 
> ">Remains that question whether the interpolation and sharpening
>   >> qualities of Qimage are as effective in B&W (quad) 
> printing as
>   >> they are in color. Or are there better algorithms for B&W 
> only ?
> 
> The techniques should be identical.  I don't know of any reason
> to treat
> B/W sharpening and interpolation any differently than color.
> 
> Mike
> 
>   >With a B&W image, you are altering only luminance values, so
> you should
>   >> be able to use higher levels of sharpening..  That leads 
> to a
> question
>   >> of whether QImage currently defaults to higher sharpening
> values when
>   >> sharpening B&W images?
> 
> 
> Shouldn't matter.  Qimage sharpens based on the luminance 
> channel to
> begin with, even in color images.
> 
> Mike"
> end of quote
> 
> Sharpening in other applications will probably work in similar 
> ways.
> 
> Ernst
>                     --
>            Ernst Dinkla
> 
> 
> www.pigment-print.com
> (         unvollendet         )
>

ferdinand_paris wrote:
> I sympathise with the original poster.  I have found sharpening B&W in 
> Qimage harder than colour.  For the simple reason that you can't use
> Mike Chaney's "sharpness equalisation" with B&W images.  It's this
> point that Mike overlooks in his comment below.  IMHO you can very
> easily do a very effective final print sharpen of colour images in
> Qimage using "sharpness equalisation" without the need to bother with
> 2 or 3 step sharpening processes.  But I find the B&W sharpening in
> Qimage too blunt.  Whole-of-image USM is too coarse a tool, despite
> the advantages of Mike's "smart sharpen" for matching screen to print
> sharpness.  I find that I have to sharpen B&W using other tools before
> printing in Qimage.
> 
> F_P

The problem with quotes is that the context gets lost. The 
questions asked then were related to the PS>Qimage>QTR 
workflow and with the final print sharpening in mind. As 
Qimage only knows RGB it will do a sharpening on color images 
whether you give it greyscale or monochrome RGB. The output is 
always RGB. With the gradual steps in Qimage's print 
sharpening possible I do not find it to blunt but I always use 
low settings as I sharpen the greyscale image in Photoshop to 
the degree I like on screen and only add that last 
extrapolation + print sharpening in Qimage. My concern was 
that that last step could be better with greyscale specific 
extrapolation and sharpening and Mike couldn't see why there 
would be a problem as most of the effect is obtained on the 
luminance.


Met vriendelijke groeten,Ernst


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