Digital BW, The Print

Is anyone using any of the Claria ink printers? I'm doing some testing
with another person and just made some measurements on a few different
papers. I have to say I'm not real impressed with the dmax on matte
papers, they are much higher than they should be for a dye ink. Here's
what I have:
paper              L                a               b
EEM 		20.79592	1.492584	 0.9187269
HWM 		15.01176	0.7535551	-0.5273904
Merlin Natural 	18.18041	0.7569027	-0.5177056
PGPP 		2.541729	0.1924215	-2.284739

PGPP being the only gloss paper in this test. And it looks like all
the papers except Merlin Natural have OBA. Measured with my
Spectroscan/Spectrolino, clear filter, on the black background.

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. Are you saying that
you're NOT impressed with the dmax on matte yet they (the Claria inks)
are much higher than they should be for a dye ink?

Chris Hargens

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Greg"
<dfaprinting@...> wrote:

>
> Is anyone using any of the Claria ink printers? I'm doing some testing
> with another person and just made some measurements on a few different
> papers. I have to say I'm not real impressed with the dmax on matte
> papers, they are much higher than they should be for a dye ink. Here's
> what I have:
> paper              L                a               b
> EEM 		20.79592	1.492584	 0.9187269
> HWM 		15.01176	0.7535551	-0.5273904
> Merlin Natural 	18.18041	0.7569027	-0.5177056
> PGPP 		2.541729	0.1924215	-2.284739
> 
> PGPP being the only gloss paper in this test. And it looks like all
> the papers except Merlin Natural have OBA. Measured with my
> Spectroscan/Spectrolino, clear filter, on the black background.
>

OK maybe the wording is the problem, the blacks are not as dark as
they should be with dye inks. In fact they are not as good as many
pigment inks on matte paper.

Greg wrote:

"... the blacks are not as dark as
they should be with dye inks. In fact they are not as good as many
pigment inks on matte paper."

I wonder if this is because the dye inks are absorbed on matte papers and
the pigmented inks sit more on the surface of the paper.

Rick

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Rick Colson
<colson@...> wrote:
>
> Greg wrote:
> 
> "... the blacks are not as dark as
> they should be with dye inks. In fact they are not as good as many
> pigment inks on matte paper."
> 
> I wonder if this is because the dye inks are absorbed on matte
papers and
> the pigmented inks sit more on the surface of the paper.
> 
> Rick
>


Most other dye inks produce a very dark black on matte papers, so I'm
not really sure why these inks would be different.

Greg wrote:
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Rick Colson
> <colson@...> wrote:
>> Greg wrote:
>>
>> "... the blacks are not as dark as
>> they should be with dye inks. In fact they are not as good as many
>> pigment inks on matte paper."
>>
>> I wonder if this is because the dye inks are absorbed on matte
> papers and
>> the pigmented inks sit more on the surface of the paper.
>>
>> Rick

The only explanation I can think off is that the black is not 
having enough dye colorant. Not enough ink squirted seems 
strange. The printers have 5 droplet sizes, the smallest 1.5 
picoliter ? so you may expect that the largest is large 
enough. I think you should discuss this with Epson if it is 
happening on all Claria models, the last we expected is that a 
new dye ink doesn't deliver Dmax on matte papers.


Met vriendelijke groeten,Ernst


|  Dinkla Grafische Techniek  |
|     www.pigment-print.com    |
|             ( unvollendet )            |

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Ernst Dinkla 
<E.Dinkla@...> wrote:

> 
> The only explanation I can think off is that the black is not 
> having enough dye colorant. Not enough ink squirted seems 
> strange. The printers have 5 droplet sizes, the smallest 1.5 
> picoliter ? so you may expect that the largest is large 
> enough. I think you should discuss this with Epson if it is 
> happening on all Claria models, the last we expected is that a 
> new dye ink doesn't deliver Dmax on matte papers.
> 


I was hoping that some other users would be able to report on their 
findings, but this seems to be an extremely unpopular topic. About as 
unpopular as fade testing these new inks on matte papers. I had 
thought that maybe a few people would have been interested in BO with 
these new inks, assuming that they really last as long as they 
should, but so far not much interest by anyone.

I'm pretty sure the correct amount of ink is getting onto the paper, 
at least on the EEM. The black patch was not much darker than the 
next patch up the scale. I may be able to find out more in a few 
weeks, I should have some "empty" carts coming that I can take apart, 
if a black cart arraives, I can do a swab test and see what happens.

Sorry, Greg, I haven't bothered to try them on mat papers. I get 2.37 
on Costco glossy, so far that's the only paper I've used. Have you 
tried it on any of the PK rag papers? That might work better?

Steve Karafyllakis


--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Greg" 
<dfaprinting@...> wrote:
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Ernst Dinkla 
> <E.Dinkla@> wrote:
> 
> > 
> > The only explanation I can think off is that the black is not 
> > having enough dye colorant. Not enough ink squirted seems 
> > strange. The printers have 5 droplet sizes, the smallest 1.5 
> > picoliter ? so you may expect that the largest is large 
> > enough. I think you should discuss this with Epson if it is 
> > happening on all Claria models, the last we expected is that a 
> > new dye ink doesn't deliver Dmax on matte papers.
> > 
> 
> 
> I was hoping that some other users would be able to report on their 
> findings, but this seems to be an extremely unpopular topic. About 
as 
> unpopular as fade testing these new inks on matte papers. I had 
> thought that maybe a few people would have been interested in BO 
with 
> these new inks, assuming that they really last as long as they 
> should, but so far not much interest by anyone.
> 
> I'm pretty sure the correct amount of ink is getting onto the 
paper, 
> at least on the EEM. The black patch was not much darker than the 
> next patch up the scale. I may be able to find out more in a few 
> weeks, I should have some "empty" carts coming that I can take 
apart, 
> if a black cart arraives, I can do a swab test and see what happens.
>

Some would ask why use Claria at all?
I tested it on Epson ultra premium glossy.  The dmax and gamut, overall, are
not any better than K3.  Combine that with the high ink cost,
tamper-resistant cartridge, metamerism, and printer availability, and I have
to ask the same question.
For 4x6 _photo_ prints, the results are stunning; bright colors,
bronze-free, and super sharp.

Best regards,
John Moody

-----Original Message-----
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Greg
Sent: Monday, December 11, 2006 1:27 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] Re: Dmax of Claria inks


I was hoping that some other users would be able to report on their
findings, but this seems to be an extremely unpopular topic. About as
unpopular as fade testing these new inks on matte papers. I had
thought that maybe a few people would have been interested in BO with
these new inks, assuming that they really last as long as they
should, but so far not much interest by anyone.

I'm pretty sure the correct amount of ink is getting onto the paper,
at least on the EEM. The black patch was not much darker than the
next patch up the scale. I may be able to find out more in a few
weeks, I should have some "empty" carts coming that I can take apart,
if a black cart arraives, I can do a swab test and see what happens.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Dec 11, 2006, at 10:26 AM, Greg wrote:

> --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, Ernst Dinkla
> <E.Dinkla@...> wrote:
>
>>
>> The only explanation I can think off is that the black is not
>> having enough dye colorant. Not enough ink squirted seems
>> strange. The printers have 5 droplet sizes, the smallest 1.5
>> picoliter ? so you may expect that the largest is large
>> enough. I think you should discuss this with Epson if it is
>> happening on all Claria models, the last we expected is that a
>> new dye ink doesn't deliver Dmax on matte papers.
>>
>
>
> I was hoping that some other users would be able to report on their
> findings, but this seems to be an extremely unpopular topic. About as
> unpopular as fade testing these new inks on matte papers. I had
> thought that maybe a few people would have been interested in BO with
> these new inks, assuming that they really last as long as they
> should, but so far not much interest by anyone.

I'm very interested, both in BO specifically and more generally. But  
my first attempts to make a short list of promising thick and heavy  
matte papers didn't work because I started with what Epson promotes,  
and they didn't include any. Now I need to start over, and intend to,  
but the Christmas Crazies have taken me hostage and are making me  
print Christmas cards.

Can you tell me yet, Greg, whether the 260 can handle a paper which  
weighs in at about 300 gsm and if not about where it's limit seems to  
be?

Thanks.
--
Sam

>Some would ask why use Claria at all?
>... not any better than K3. 
>... high ink cost,

> tamper-resistant cartridge ...

It looks like Epson is building a fortress around this printer to stop 3rd
party inks.  Until someone busts their system, like with an empty cart that
avoids the patents, I would totally avoid R260 and other Claria printers.

If these printers are tied to overpriced inks, their initial purchase price
is, in effect, just the down payment for a much more expensive system.
Tying agreements used to be illegal, but no more.  Caveat Emptor. 

This same view applies to all printers that effectively tie the printer to
aftermarket sales.

I hope the 3800 carts cab be refilled easily.  If they can, we can do just
fine with bulk inks.  I refill large format printer carts all the time.

I have not analyzed to the Epson patent protections suits to know if there
are any desktop machines they are leaving open to the B&W.  I'll ask Epson.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

You can almost feel their hand in your pocket.
I just ran a 3800 manual nozzle check; my last print was 48 hours ago.  It
reported 7.2ml used by running a cleaning before proceeding with the nozzle
check.  Amazing, you can't even decide if a cleaning is needed first, it
just does it...  The check was good . very big grin.
Just to be clear, I'm not whining, I anticipated the ink cleanings would be
much more aggressive than a 2400; not happy about it, but not unexpected.

Best regards,
John Moody

-----Original Message-----
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Paul Roark
Sent: Monday, December 11, 2006 4:45 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Re: Dmax of Claria inks


>Some would ask why use Claria at all?
>... not any better than K3.
>... high ink cost,

> tamper-resistant cartridge ...

It looks like Epson is building a fortress around this printer to stop 3rd
party inks. Until someone busts their system, like with an empty cart that
avoids the patents, I would totally avoid R260 and other Claria printers.

If these printers are tied to overpriced inks, their initial purchase price
is, in effect, just the down payment for a much more expensive system.
Tying agreements used to be illegal, but no more. Caveat Emptor.

This same view applies to all printers that effectively tie the printer to
aftermarket sales.

I hope the 3800 carts cab be refilled easily. If they can, we can do just
fine with bulk inks. I refill large format printer carts all the time.

I have not analyzed to the Epson patent protections suits to know if there
are any desktop machines they are leaving open to the B&W. I'll ask Epson.

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark"
<paul.roark@...> wrote:

> Tying agreements used to be illegal, but no more.  Caveat Emptor. 
> 
> This same view applies to all printers that effectively tie the
printer to
> aftermarket sales.

I am not sure about it, but a while ago I read that in the European
Union from 2007 or 2008 only printers can be sold who's carts are
refillable. I will have to re-check what has become of this law project.

In the end those strategies only work with a certain number of people,
mostly those who can sell their prints. Myself I will not even pay the
ink costs of a 2400 with OEM ink carts. Too small, too expensive.
RIght now I do ALL my stuff with  printer shops, obviously with less
than satisfying b&w results. I still have a 2100, had too many issues
with CFS systems, clogs etc. 

I am interested in the 3800, will wait a little longer how it behaves....
Unfortunately the 3800 is all but cheap in terms of ink. About 50-60%
of the 2400, which is still expensive. 

Inkjet printers must be one of the rare areas where the pro users (who
buy lots of consumables) are not rewarded by heavy rebates, but
punished multiple times by the same premium prices. HP had real
rebates (packs of 3 carts for the price of 2) for their designjet dye
inks. 

regards, Bernie

I don't have the printer, I'm using prints from another person to do 
some fade testing. The Merlin Natural went through in 4x6 but he said a 
full size sheet was too much. So it looks like this printer will be 
for "consumer" use. I'm still surprised by the poor Dmax on matte 
papers, the only one that was close to acceptable was the matte paper 
heavyweight with a Lab L similar to 15.

And I again with what John Moody said, why bother? I haven't checked 
for metamerism yet, but I'll take your word for it, and the performance 
on matte paper is truly generations old. K3 would be a better choice at 
this point. The only reason I might want one of these is for printing 
onto disks, but maybe it's not time to replace my old Lexmark Z25 (or 
is it Z23) printer for this task.

I do have some empty carts on the way, but I will not be able to make a 
chip reset tool. I was only going to look into the refilling aspects 
for the eventuality that Epson has made this in such a way that third 
party carts are not (legally) possible.

Hello John,

>I just ran a 3800 manual nozzle check; my last print was 48 hours 
>ago.  It reported 7.2ml used by running a cleaning before proceeding 
>with the nozzle check.  Amazing, you can't even decide if a cleaning 
>is needed first, it just does it...  

Wouldn't it be possible to create a small test image that would print
a pure patch of each ink?  That ought to show some banding if there's
a clogged nozzle.  

Or maybe Roy could create a printer instruction in QTR that would do a
real nozzle test pattern...just a thought.


>The check was good. very big grin.

One of the nice things about K3 inks.  I'm 16 months now with a 2400
and have had one minor clog after sitting unused nearly 3 weeks.  I
keep it on all the time and there are very few full cleaning cycles.

Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
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