Yahoo Groups archive

Digital BW, The Print

Index last updated: 2026-04-28 22:56 UTC

Thread

Comparison of Ultrachrome K3 Advanced B&W and Cone Neutral K7 Inks

Comparison of Ultrachrome K3 Advanced B&W and Cone Neutral K7 Inks

2007-01-13 by John Hollenberg

OK, thought I would provide some feedback after the help I received in
choosing the Cone Neutral K7 inkset.  I did a comparison on Epson
Enhanced Matte, using a Canon 5D image which was down-rezzed slightly
to produce a 7X10 image at 360 PPI.  The image was of a cherry orchard
with lots of fine detail in the grass, tiny branches and blossoms. 

1) Epson 2200 with Cone Neutral K7 inks, using Quadtone Rip and the
supplied NK7 profile

2) Epson 2400 with stock Ultrachrome K3 inks (matte black), Advanced
B&W mode with setting Normal

The K3 print was just a bit lighter, but generally quite close. 
Making a B&W profile using QTR would even out those differences. 
Without using a loupe, I couldn't reliably tell the difference.  Under
a loupe, I discovered the "dotless highlights" of the K7 print. 
However, the K3 print appeared more "luminous" (very slight) in the
highlights and was preferable in this regard.

Bottom line: some of you guys must have damn good eyesight!  I don't
regret trying out the K7 inks, and obviously need to do more
experimenting, but with results like this why bother?  Please tell me
what I am missing (if anything).

Thanks.

--John

RE: [Digital BW] Comparison of Ultrachrome K3 Advanced B&W and Cone Neutral K7 Inks

2007-01-13 by Paul Roark

There is excess color in the K3 ABW mode print that will affect fade
resistance.  Have you tried taking the prints under differing lighting to
compare metamerism? 

 

Paul

www.PaulRoark.com <http://www.paulroark.com/>  

 

 

  _____  
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of John
Hollenberg
Sent: Saturday, January 13, 2007 12:45 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Digital BW] Comparison of Ultrachrome K3 Advanced B&W and Cone
Neutral K7 Inks

 

OK, thought I would provide some feedback after the help I received in
choosing the Cone Neutral K7 inkset. I did a comparison on Epson
Enhanced Matte, using a Canon 5D image which was down-rezzed slightly
to produce a 7X10 image at 360 PPI. The image was of a cherry orchard
with lots of fine detail in the grass, tiny branches and blossoms. 

1) Epson 2200 with Cone Neutral K7 inks, using Quadtone Rip and the
supplied NK7 profile

2) Epson 2400 with stock Ultrachrome K3 inks (matte black), Advanced
B&W mode with setting Normal

The K3 print was just a bit lighter, but generally quite close. 
Making a B&W profile using QTR would even out those differences. 
Without using a loupe, I couldn't reliably tell the difference. Under
a loupe, I discovered the "dotless highlights" of the K7 print. 
However, the K3 print appeared more "luminous" (very slight) in the
highlights and was preferable in this regard.

Bottom line: some of you guys must have damn good eyesight! I don't
regret trying out the K7 inks, and obviously need to do more
experimenting, but with results like this why bother? Please tell me
what I am missing (if anything).

Thanks.

--John

 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Comparison of Ultrachrome K3 Advanced B&W and Cone Neutral K7 I

2007-01-13 by John Hollenberg

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Roark"
<paul.roark@...> wrote:
>
> There is excess color in the K3 ABW mode print that will affect fade
> resistance.  Have you tried taking the prints under differing 
> lighting to compare metamerism? 

Paul,

Just tried under a couple of different fluorescent lights and still
couldn't tell the difference.  I thought I knew which one was changing
slightly, but that turned out to be the K7 print.  Too close to call.
The difference in fade resistance is a significant point that one
can't see in this visual comparison.

Looking at prints further under a loupe, the K7 print is definitely
smoother in the transitions.  However, while I can almost convince
myself that I can see the difference in smoothness of an abrupt
light/dark transition from 8 inches away, probably I would only get
about 50% right if the test was done "blindly".

Thanks.

--John

Re: [Digital BW] Comparison of Ultrachrome K3 Advanced B&W and Cone Neutral K7 Inks

2007-01-13 by CDTobie@aol.com

In a message dated 1/13/07 4:00:34 PM, paul.roark@... writes:


> There is excess color in the K3 ABW mode print that will affect fade
> resistance.  Have you tried taking the prints under differing lighting to
> compare metamerism?
> 

Excess color on an absolute basis, still a tiny fraction of the color ink 
previous generation printers used in grays... as for visible metamerism; try as I 
might I can't see any difference between color mode metamerism, AWB 
metamerism, and gray inkset metamerism. Theory seems to exceed reality on these 
concerns.

C. David Tobie
Product Technology Manager
ColorVision Business Division
DataColor Inc.
CDTobie@colorvision.com
www.colorvision.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Comparison of Ultrachrome K3 Advanced B&W and Cone Neutral K7 I

2007-01-14 by John Hollenberg

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "john dean"
<deanwork2003@...> wrote:
>
> There is NO metamerism with NK7 and anyone who says there is is 
> talking from a lack of experience and knowledge.

I think what C.D. Tobie was saying is that he couldn't see any with
Auto B&W mode on Epson either, not that there was metamerism with NK7.
That fits with my experience when I checked today under some
fluorescent lights.  Of course, others may have a more discerning eye
than I :-)

--John

Re: [Digital BW] Comparison of Ultrachrome K3 Advanced B&W and Cone Neutral K7 I

2007-01-14 by Michael King

John,

Try a more challanging image. This one is pretty brutal.
Definitely see metamerism with ABW.

http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/article_pages/black_and_white_test.html

Mike

On 14/01/07, John Hollenberg <weasel@...> wrote:
>
>   --- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com<DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint%40yahoogroups.com>,
> "john dean"
> <deanwork2003@...> wrote:
> >
> > There is NO metamerism with NK7 and anyone who says there is is
> > talking from a lack of experience and knowledge.
>
> I think what C.D. Tobie was saying is that he couldn't see any with
> Auto B&W mode on Epson either, not that there was metamerism with NK7.
> That fits with my experience when I checked today under some
> fluorescent lights. Of course, others may have a more discerning eye
> than I :-)
>
> --John
>
> 
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Comparison of Ultrachrome K3 Advanced B&W and Cone Neutral K7 Inks

2007-01-14 by Michael King

David,

I see a significant difference in metamerism between ABW and printing with
IP on a 4800 with this image.

http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/article_pages/black_and_white_test.html

All due to IP using less colour.

I scanned a couple of samples and the images are here
http://photographymusings.blogspot.com/2006_10_01_archive.html
Bottom of the page, click on the image to see higher res version.

Mike


On 13/01/07, CDTobie@... <CDTobie@...> wrote:
>
>
> In a message dated 1/13/07 4:00:34 PM, paul.roark@...<paul.roark%40verizon.net>writes:
>
> > There is excess color in the K3 ABW mode print that will affect fade
> > resistance.  Have you tried taking the prints under differing lighting
> to
> > compare metamerism?
> >
>
> Excess color on an absolute basis, still a tiny fraction of the color ink
> previous generation printers used in grays... as for visible metamerism;
> try as I
> might I can't see any difference between color mode metamerism, AWB
> metamerism, and gray inkset metamerism. Theory seems to exceed reality on
> these
> concerns.
>
> C. David Tobie
> Product Technology Manager
> ColorVision Business Division
> DataColor Inc.
> CDTobie@... <CDTobie%40colorvision.com>
> www.colorvision.com
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> 
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: Comparison of Ultrachrome K3 Advanced B&W and Cone Neutral K7 Inks

2007-01-14 by Clayton Jones

Hello John,

Thanks for the good report.

>Under a loupe, I discovered the "dotless highlights" of the K7 print. 
>However, the K3 print appeared more "luminous" (very slight) in the
>highlights and was preferable in this regard.

This is because K3/ABW, being a "dotty" system, allows some bare
paper, which is quite reflective, to show through between the dots in
the highlights, resulting in a more luminous print.  The dotless
systems get their effect by completely covering the paper with at
least very pale, almost transparent ink in the highlights.  This fills
in between the dots and emulates the continuous tone of emulsion
prints, but covers, and therefore dulls slightly, the paper's
reflective surface.  There's a tradeoff for everything.   

As for the K3 having color inks in the print, that's true, but the K7
also has some color pigments of some sort blended in.  Those inks are
neutralized with something.  We don't know with what, or with how
much, but there's something in there.  I don't know what the
comparative fade resistance is between them, but K3/ABW has some
pretty impressive Wilhelm numbers.  If you look up his 2400 report, 

        http://www.wilhelm-research.com/epson/R2400.html

...keep in mind he has separate results for color prints and ABW
prints, which use much less color inks.  The bottom line: page 3 of
his report rates ABW prints as follows, depending on the paper:

  Framed under normal glass: 110 to >205 years
  Framed under UV glass: 110 to >300 years
  In dark album storage: > 200 years

FWIW, I have a K3/ABW print on my windowsill torture test
(unprotected, with some direct south Florida sunlight every day) for
16 months now, and it's now showing very slight fading only in a
midtone area (the cover strip covers a full range of tones).  
 

>Bottom line: some of you guys must have damn good eyesight!  I don't
>regret trying out the K7 inks, and obviously need to do more
>experimenting, but with results like this why bother?  Please tell me
>what I am missing (if anything).

I don't think you're missing anything.  You have spotted the
significant visual differences in the prints.  Maybe there are some
Wilhelm fade test numbers for K7 out there for comparison.  You should
also compare ink cost and workflow differences.  If 2400 carts are
refilled with MIS K4, the ink cost is significantly reduced.  ABW can
also be used without a RIP (see article #9 at the link below).  A
major difference, of course, is tone control, with K3's variable tone
vs K7's more restricted palette.  K3 will also (with PK) work with
glossy papers and the Silver Rag type papers.  They are both high
quality systems.  It's just a matter of weighing all the differences
and making a choice.    


Regards,
Clayton


Info on black and white digital printing at    
http://www.cjcom.net/digiprnarts.htm

Re: [Digital BW] Comparison of Ultrachrome K3 Advanced B&W and Cone Neutral K7 Inks

2007-01-14 by CDTobie@aol.com

In a message dated 1/13/07 10:33:03 PM, drmrking@... writes:


> 
> I see a significant difference in metamerism between ABW and printing with
> IP on a 4800 with this image.
> 
> http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/article_pages/black_and_white_test.html
> 

Then your concept of visible metamerism is quite different than mine, as I 
have a wide collection of grayscale inkset prints, AWB prints, and neutral color 
mode prints, and a lightbooth with several lightsources... the only real 
difference I see in any of these with "two gray" printers (as opposed to the clear 
difference that shows with older printer models) is that the UV lightsource 
changes whitened papers in all cases; UV aside, they are all about as neutral 
under one source as under another, be it warm incandescent, 5000k, 6500k, or 
cool blue.

C. David Tobie
Product Technology Manager
ColorVision Business Division
DataColor Inc.
CDTobie@...
www.colorvision.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

RE: [Digital BW] Comparison of Ultrachrome K3 Advanced B&W and Cone Neutral K7 I

2007-01-14 by Eric Neilsen

Any print will reflect the light from the conditions that it is in; I have
yet to see an ABW print made on my 4800 that shows metamerism. I'll have to
wait until the end of next week to try that image but here is the problem I
see with that test. If you are trying to print a B&W neutral image and you
are not using a set of Black inks, I doubt that you'd ever get a dead
neutral print without color in it. Seeing a very slight color in a print to
me in one light source, and then a radically different color in another
light, unexpected from the normal shift is bad. How much of what you are
seeing is ink related and how much is the combination of paper and ink? 

 

Michael, Did I see that your tests were done on Epson Premium Lustre?
Perhaps that is the problem and not the ABW mode or K3 inks. How it reflects
light. 

 

John, What do you mean by normal? (Default settings) I did not find a
standard setting very acceptable with ABW. I needed to tweak the ink
settings to produce a smooth transition that I was happy with. This being
done before I purchased the Print Fix Pro. I have only last week started
playing the extended grays, and I would say it has promise. 

 

Paul, you seem concerned about the fading of the small amount of color ink.
Have you seen data that the colors fade unevenly? How fast? 

 

 

 

Eric Neilsen Photography

4101 Commerce Street

Suite 9

Dallas, TX 75226

http://e.neilsen.home.att.net

http://ericneilsenphotography.com

Skype ejprinter

  _____  
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Michael
King
Sent: Saturday, January 13, 2007 9:21 PM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Digital BW] Comparison of Ultrachrome K3 Advanced B&W and Cone
Neutral K7 I

 

John,

Try a more challanging image. This one is pretty brutal.
Definitely see metamerism with ABW.

http://www.northlig
<http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/article_pages/black_and_white_test.html>
ht-images.co.uk/article_pages/black_and_white_test.html

Mike

On 14/01/07, John Hollenberg <weasel@linkline.
<mailto:weasel%40linkline.com> com> wrote:
>
> --- In DigitalBlackandWhit
<mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint%40yahoogroups.com>
eThePrint@yahoogroups.com<DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint%40yahoogroups.com>,
> "john dean"
> <deanwork2003@...> wrote:
> >
> > There is NO metamerism with NK7 and anyone who says there is is
> > talking from a lack of experience and knowledge.
>
> I think what C.D. Tobie was saying is that he couldn't see any with
> Auto B&W mode on Epson either, not that there was metamerism with NK7.
> That fits with my experience when I checked today under some
> fluorescent lights. Of course, others may have a more discerning eye
> than I :-)
>
> --John
>
> 
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

RE: [Digital BW] Re: Comparison of Ultrachrome K3 Advanced B&W and Cone Neutral K7 Inks

2007-01-14 by Eric Neilsen

I thinks it is a matter of knowing which tool to hit the right target with. 

 

Eric Neilsen Photography

4101 Commerce Street

Suite 9

Dallas, TX 75226

http://e.neilsen.home.att.net

http://ericneilsenphotography.com

Skype ejprinter

. It's just a matter of weighing all the differences
and making a choice. 

Regards,
Clayton

_ 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: [Digital BW] Comparison of Ultrachrome K3 Advanced B&W and Cone Neutral K7 I

2007-01-14 by John Hollenberg

--- In DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com, "Eric Neilsen"
<e.neilsen2@...> wrote:
 
> John, What do you mean by normal? (Default settings) I did not find 
> a standard setting very acceptable with ABW. I needed to tweak the 
> ink settings to produce a smooth transition that I was happy with. 

By "normal" I mean that you can choose Lighter, Normal, Darker,
Darkest (or something like that) in the ABW mode.  I wasn't suggesting
that this was an optimal setting as far as tonality.  As a matter of
fact, I think the best way to handle this is to pick a standard mode
(e.g., normal mode), then create a black and white profile using QTR
so you get WYSIWYG printing.  I plan to do that down the line, but
didn't want to bother at this point.

--John

Re: [Digital BW] Comparison of Ultrachrome K3 Advanced B&W and Cone Neutral K7 I

2007-01-14 by CDTobie@aol.com

In a message dated 1/14/07 12:03:15 AM, e.neilsen2@... writes:


> Any print will reflect the light from the conditions that it is in; I have
> yet to see an ABW print made on my 4800 that shows metamerism. 
> 
Agreed...

> I'll have to
> wait until the end of next week to try that image but here is the problem I
> see with that test.
> 
Its one of the images I've tested extensively with, and results with it are 
identical to results from the rather similar ColorVision test image that we 
supply in PrintFIX PRO... no magic here, just a good B&W test image.


>  If you are trying to print a B&W neutral image and you
> are not using a set of Black inks, I doubt that you'd ever get a dead
> neutral print without color in it.
> 
Agreed again, though my goal with PrintFIX PRO 2 was to first allow as "dead" 
a neutral print as possible, then add the necessary tools to tweak that to 
the most ideal ramp from paper white to ink black...


>  Seeing a very slight color in a print to
> me in one light source, and then a radically different color in another
> light, unexpected from the normal shift is bad. 
> 
Seeing a visual shift in perceived tone, unrelated to the appropriate shift 
in media white, when light sources change would be my definition of visible 
illuminant metamerism. That shift which is related to change in media white is 
necessary and unavoidable. I see illuminant metamerism daily in color prints; it 
has basicly disappeared from my life with B&W prints with gray inksets, and 
with the latest "two gray" OEM inks as well...


> How much of what you are
> seeing is ink related and how much is the combination of paper and ink?
> 
That was one reason I mentioned the issue of brighten papers and UV testing 
in my last note: the shift caused by adding UV to the lightsource is pretty 
significant, and on whitened paper it causes major changes in the prints... if 
you don't have a multisource lightbooth with optional UV, it becomes very 
difficult to check for this, as your different light sources may have significantly 
different degrees of UV in them, so that a shift that you think is caused by 
illuminant metamerism, may well be caused by differing degrees of UV. Thats why 
side by side testing of different methods or inksets, ON THE EXACT SAME MEDIA 
would be necessary. Even then, other factors still creep in.

At Photokina two years ago we had an Epson 4000, and a multisource light 
booth. B&W prints from the 4000 were all over the map under different light 
sources, not just in tone, but the densities as well, and UV caused a second set of 
large variations. Two years later at the same show, we had a 4800 and a 9800 
(not to mention a Z3100) and the same light booth. This time the color prints 
still jumped around between light sources, and with the whitened papers jumped 
around with and without UV, but the AWB mode and neutral color mode prints 
were dead stable, under the various light colors, and the bad hall lighting as 
well.

On the other hand, at PhotoPlus in NYC this fall we had a series of canvas 
prints in a gallery at the back of the ColorVision booth. Someone was really 
taken with a shot of an antique Indian motorcycle, and told me that someone on 
the staff had sent him to me in hopes that I might have an art paper print if 
that same image. I showed him a 13x19 print on Entrada, and he frowned and said 
the red of the motorcycle was wrong, way to much of a burnt orange in the 
paper print. I countered that both prints had been made with PFP color profiles, 
(even if in different countries, on different media), so they should be a 
reasonable match. We carried the paper print around the back of the booth, held it 
up next to the canvas under the gallery lighting, and the red magically turned 
red, and was a dead match for the canvas print. Pull it out into show floor 
lighting, it was an unattractive burnt orange again. No fix for that with color 
images but controlled lighting... but when I did the same thing with a B&W 
paper print and a black and white canvas of the same image, there was none of 
that shift.

C. David Tobie
Product Technology Manager
ColorVision Business Division
DataColor Inc.
CDTobie@...
www.colorvision.com


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

RE: [Digital BW] Comparison of Ultrachrome K3 Advanced B&W and Cone Neutral K7 I

2007-01-14 by Paul Roark

Eric,

>...
>Paul, you seem concerned about the fading of the small amount of 
>color ink.  Have you seen data that the colors fade unevenly? How fast? 

All the pigments fade at different rates.  Compare the RIT fade test results
relating to the MIS "archival" set (ignore the black, which had dye in it)
with fade test data on Claria on page 2 of this pdf:
http://www.epson.co.jp/e/newsroom/tech_news/tnl0611single.pdf

The substances and relative fade rates have not changed much.  Among the
color pigments, cyan is very lightfast and yellow fades the fastest.  The
pure MIS carbon routinely beats the neutralized inksets.

In a fade test with MIS inks in a 2400, the ABW mode was compared to a print
made with a rip that had no excess color in it.  At a point that would be
about equal to 13 Wilhelm years, the ABW mode print Lab L had increased
(indicating fading) about 36% more than the IJC print.

The tone shift issue is more complex, because it appears to depend on the
paper.  In general, it appeared that on EEM the yellow fading actually
lowered the tone shift of ABW mode prints, whereas on non-OBA, acid free
paper the yellow fade resulted in the print cooling down.  (I have not done
enough testing to know if the EEM yellowing of the 50% test strip patch is
due to the OBAs, acidity, or other factors.) 

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com

Re: Comparison of Ultrachrome K3 Advanced B&W and Cone Neutral K7 Inks

2007-01-14 by John Hollenberg

I decided to throw my Canon IPF5000 into the mix.  It came out a
distant third for two reasons:

1) There is a bit of graininess which IS visible to the naked eye (you
have to look close, but it is definitely there.  Don't know yet
whether this is due to the nature of the Canon printer, or something
isn't right with my print head.  The latter is a definite possibility,
because I have seen some very odd looking numbers for the auto head
alignment.  Tech support assured me that it was OK, but now I am not
so sure, since I see an actual anomaly.

2) While the Canon prints are indeed "dead neutral" by measurement,
the monochrome photo mode apparently doesn't track to paper white.    

Example of L*a*b* values measured with Eye One Spectro:

Paper - Innova Cold Press (beautiful and fairly inexpensive paper, by
the way)

Innova Paper White - 97.4, -0.1, 2.4
Cone Neutral K7 print through QTR - 66.9, 0.6, 2.3
Canon print with 10, -2 setting - 70.1, 0.1, 0.4

Ignoring the difference in luminosity, which can easily be tweaked,
the main difference here is that by L* approximately 70 the NK7 print
tracks the paper white almost exactly (b* 2.4, slightly yellow), while
the Canon print is "technically" correct at b* of very close to 0
(0.4). The Canon print doesn't look right visually to me. Not sure if
I would call this a bug, but it is less than ideal in my opinion. One
way around it would be to pick a paper which has paper white of very
close to 0 on the b* axis.  I think I measured Museo or Museo Max as
fitting this criteria.

PS The Epson ABW mode also tracks to paper white the way the NK7
inkset does with QTR.

Comments?

--John

RE: [Digital BW] Comparison of Ultrachrome K3 Advanced B&W and Cone Neutral K7 I

2007-01-14 by Eric Neilsen

I am quite amazed at how many tests are quoted using EEM as some standard to
be tested on against, etc. It has been well known, and certainly seen by me,
that this paper is less than perfect. Which brings to question why use it to
test? I'd also point out the first sentence of that pdf, which basically
states that the industry is changing faster than a beach. There are issues
of color fade no doubt, but with so many inks what are you really talking
about? A print hanging in a home that has been sprayed and mounted that's
bound for the trash after the family has stuffed it in the attic? When do
they get their color meter out and compare it against the print that
granddad had kept in the dark drawer?  

 

We can try and worry about "excess" color and fading but without a look see
at the end use and real world examples some of this is not so important. The
days of radically faded cyan prints, faded "archival blacks" are hopefully
behind us. I have spent too many hours opening up framed objects de art,
that were poorly framed the first time out of the studio, that a slight
yellow fade is the least of these prints problems.  

 

I'd like to see some tests that show what happens when there is a layer of
acid laidened substrate used as a vapor barrier. Or a constant exposure to
ammonia based cleaner vapors. 

 

Wilhelm years? When you need to quantify a year as something other than a
year, then you need to use terms like Epson years, Kodak years, Epson + K3 +
?? years. Life gets to be a little complicated. 

 

And what do you mean by excess color? More than minimally needed to achive a
color or tone? It seems to me that excess color might be OK. If yellow
fades, and OBA's deminish, perhaps after 40 years that even out and the
print continues to show a balanced apparence? Of course, it all depends on
paper, inks, glass, location of print, ..........

 

Eric

 

Eric Neilsen Photography

4101 Commerce Street

Suite 9

Dallas, TX 75226

http://e.neilsen.home.att.net

http://ericneilsenphotography.com

Skype ejprinter

  _____  
Show quoted textHide quoted text
From: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Paul
Roark
Sent: Sunday, January 14, 2007 11:30 AM
To: DigitalBlackandWhiteThePrint@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Digital BW] Comparison of Ultrachrome K3 Advanced B&W and Cone
Neutral K7 I

 

Eric,

>...
>Paul, you seem concerned about the fading of the small amount of 
>color ink. Have you seen data that the colors fade unevenly? How fast? 

All the pigments fade at different rates. Compare the RIT fade test results
relating to the MIS "archival" set (ignore the black, which had dye in it)
with fade test data on Claria on page 2 of this pdf:
http://www.epson.
<http://www.epson.co.jp/e/newsroom/tech_news/tnl0611single.pdf>
co.jp/e/newsroom/tech_news/tnl0611single.pdf

The substances and relative fade rates have not changed much. Among the
color pigments, cyan is very lightfast and yellow fades the fastest. The
pure MIS carbon routinely beats the neutralized inksets.

In a fade test with MIS inks in a 2400, the ABW mode was compared to a print
made with a rip that had no excess color in it. At a point that would be
about equal to 13 Wilhelm years, the ABW mode print Lab L had increased
(indicating fading) about 36% more than the IJC print.

The tone shift issue is more complex, because it appears to depend on the
paper. In general, it appeared that on EEM the yellow fading actually
lowered the tone shift of ABW mode prints, whereas on non-OBA, acid free
paper the yellow fade resulted in the print cooling down. (I have not done
enough testing to know if the EEM yellowing of the 50% test strip patch is
due to the OBAs, acidity, or other factors.) 

Paul
www.PaulRoark.com 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: Comparison of Ultrachrome K3 Advanced B&W and Cone Neutral K7 Inks

2007-01-15 by John Hollenberg

A little more info.  Made profiles for HPR for the following setups
using QTR icc-create:

1) Epson 2200 with NK7, printing through QTR using supplied curve
2) Epson 2400 using ABW mode following recommendations from Clayton
Jones (Velvet Fine Art setting to determine ink load, Light setting
for ABW, plus a very slight tweak in the tone section)

When I printed another image using the respective profiles, the images
were a very close match with just a couple of exceptions:

1) Definitely smoother tonal transitions in the clouds with NK7 -
clear but subtle
2) Perhaps a bit more luminous in the Epson 2400 ABW in the highlights
- very subtle
3) In looking at the L*a*b* values for both setups, I noticed a couple
of interesting things:
   a) ABW mode on 2400 had dmax of 1.56 using above settings, while 
      NK7 had dmax of 1.62; however, there was a little bleeding in 
      the darkest patch for NK7, such that large areas of black would 
      not work well with this profile
   b) ABW on 2400 had very neutral b*, with slightly postive a* of
      around 1; NK7 had same slightly postive a*, but also had b* of
      around 1.5 from L* 45 to 85 or so (a warmer print)

Looking at both prints as a whole, the NK7 was more pleasing, perhaps
due to the slight warmth in the highlights as well as the added
smoothness.  It just looked more "alive", more three dimensional. 
This wasn't a huge difference, but noticeable.

Conclusion:  The NK7 is subtly better to my eye--I think I will stick
with it for now.

--John

Re: [Digital BW] Re: Comparison of Ultrachrome K3 Advanced B&W and Cone Neutral K7 Inks

2007-01-15 by Ernst Dinkla

John Hollenberg wrote:
> I decided to throw my Canon IPF5000 into the mix.  It came out a
> distant third for two reasons:
> 
> 1) There is a bit of graininess which IS visible to the naked eye (you
> have to look close, but it is definitely there.  Don't know yet
> whether this is due to the nature of the Canon printer, or something
> isn't right with my print head.  The latter is a definite possibility,
> because I have seen some very odd looking numbers for the auto head
> alignment.  Tech support assured me that it was OK, but now I am not
> so sure, since I see an actual anomaly.

I think that almost all the Photokina visitors that wrote 
about the 3 manufacturer's prints concluded that the Canon was 
slightly grainier. Not problematic but slightly grainier. If 
one compares the droplet size of the printers then the Canon's 
4 pl isn't really bigger than Epson's 3.5 pl, the same size as 
HP's 4 pl (lc, lm, lg, pK,E, G) and smaller than the 6 pl of 
the rest of the HP inks. There something in Canon's dithering 
that is different.


Met vriendelijke groeten,Ernst


|  Dinkla Grafische Techniek  |
|     www.pigment-print.com    |
|             ( unvollendet )            |

[Digital BW] Re: Comparison of Ultrachrome K3 Advanced B&W and Cone Neutral K7 I

2007-01-19 by John Hollenberg

> John Hollenberg wrote:

> I decided to throw my Canon IPF5000 into the mix.  It came out a
> distant third for two reasons:

> 1) There is a bit of graininess which IS visible to the naked eye 
> (you have to look close, but it is definitely there.  Don't know yet
> whether this is due to the nature of the Canon printer, or something
> isn't right with my print head.  

OK, got an answer on the visible graininess part.  There is a problem
with banding/poor print quality in the last inch of a print when the
paper is fed from the Cassette.  This is present even with highest
quality settings for output.  In looking more carefully at the print I
realized I had just run into this problem/bug.  Canon has no answer
for this at the moment (and tech had never heard of it, but has been
reported on the Canon IPF5000 Wiki and was noted approximately 6
months ago by Tony Bonanno, who sent print samples to Canon).

--John

Move to quarantaine

This moves the raw source file on disk only. The archive index is not changed automatically, so you still need to run a manual refresh afterward.